Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Robotic Operating Buddy

[PUK]

No we have to build set with good harmony between the different moves. The we have to place them in a metagame context.
Does the opponent have a good meteor: upb3. Does have a really disruptive or dangerous projectile: side2. If he can edgeguard you with ton of different option but not a meteor upB 2 can help. If he doesn't have hitbox on his recovery it can be sweet to.
Now let's talk about gyro: currently we agree that SR add a lot and deeply modify our tactics, so it's a needed to learn new tips with it. You have until july so it's ok.
The first set is 1131: default with the far superior upB.
Then 1231: this is the last set with default gyro,
Now the custom sets: 2333: the Mario set: slow or no projectile (even fast FB is not fast) and big pressure on and from the air, big need of the second jump. If the opponent has these caracteristcs this set can work.
1223: rosaluma set because shooting Star bit and luna warp can be handle by side 2. It's solid overall, anything with vulnerable recovery and who throw things at your face won't like.
1233: same with a less frail recovery on our side

It makes 5 set, i leave The remaining on u

 

[Oracle]

All of those sets but 2333 exist already in my list. If you think 2333 should be on, what set do you think it should replace and why

@ Piford @ CT Chia im looking for yalls opinions.

 

[PUK]

I don't have issues with most of your sets, but i felt than you built your set around a move: set with reflector, set with back arm. I could be wrong and i'm sorry if it's the case.
I prefer sets built as a whole thing, with debate around why this move, in a custom environment, is better with this other move. This way we can erase a set outclassed, or identify case where a niche set would add advantages. For exemple, while upb2 is better in some case than upb3 (against shiek and greninja and a few other char) i would'nt run side1 in those Match up. So 1121 is outclassed by 1221 which is outclassed himself by 1223.
Back arm rotor work well with gyro and fire gyro and little less with slipping gyro because it give a quick ground or aerial option if you have gyro in hand and don't want to toss him. So if you feel that you're gonna pull off the gyro from the ground a lot in a match up, back arm is the better option, with the exception of a big projectile user on the other side.
In your sets, wide angle laser give you a spammable projectile and anti air tool. Slipping gyro make your opponent Shield or jump, and you will like that. In comparison normal gyro is cheap.
All your sets run a combination of 1231/3 with variation on one move. In most case it's excellent. But it's because side2, up3 and d3 are all really good. But it leads to various combination which doesn't deserve a room when better exist in the room next to them.

 

[Oracle]

Which of my sets do you feel should be replaced and with what?

 

[PUK]

Ok, so out of rob's special moves, the highest priority ones should be up 3, and side 2, since those are generally the best in almost all matchups. the best gyro is Probably tied between trip and neutral, and aside from those there are niche uses for fire gyro, robo rocket, backwards arm rotor, and wide angle laser. as such, the priority sets are

1231
1233

And the secondary sets with the other moves should be permutations of these sets. For example, the wide angle laser sets would be

2231: don't Bring a lot between 1231 and 2233
2233

This avoids having overly specific sets full of niche moves. I'll list out all of the sets for the niche moves

Back arm rotor

1331
1333: this and 2333 are basically the same, but 2333 is slightly better in a couple of situation

Robo rocket

1221: like i said it's strongly outclassed by 1223 so it should leave, for 2/1123
1223

Fire gyro

1232: good if you have to deal with super armor, more present in this new metagame, but really it's a niche. Some said than side2 is more than a reflector so even if the opponent doesn't rely on a projectile it's not a dead slot.

Arm rotor

1131
1133

Which leaves us with 11 sets. what we need to ask is out of these

, a. Which sets would be used the least
b. Are there any sets with multiple niche moves would have more use than what is on currently? (Ie 1332 being uuseful over 1232 since you wouldnt really want fire gyro in mus where you need to reflect)

This brings
1131
1133
1232
1223
2123 or 1123
2333
1331
2233
1231
1233
It makes 10 sets, plus default
I can argue than a lot of these set has overlaps, but most of the player who are going to EVO will want to play with option they know and which don't modify too much rob's game

 

[Piford]

Why did Smashboards stop informing me of this thread. Anyways

1233 or 1223 is definitely not the best set for dealing with Rosalina. The best way for dealing with Shooting Star bits is not to reflect them because Luma can eat them up and you can just get punished for the reflect. You need either side 1 or 3 for removing Luma which is a much better way to deal with her. I still prefer side 3 for it but I'll assume @ CT Chia is right and side 1 is better. Also we shouldn't have 2 sets for 1 matchup. I'm pretty sure 1133 is going to be a good Rosa set. Up 2 is inferior to up 3 becuase the more predictable recovery makes it easier to land Rosalina's dair. Slip gyro is prefered because it goes under luma. Since 1133 is already a main set I think we're fine.

I also don't think we should have a set custom tailored to just Mario unless it completely turns around a bad matchup (not even sure if Mario is a bad matchup to begin with), or if it can be used with many other matchups as well.

I think we need to organize our sets into groups based necessity like how they are doing on other boards

Critical sets:
1131
1133
1231
1233

Preferential sets:
1132
1331
1332
1221
1223
1123
2231
2233

Niche sets:
This would be sets that we would make for specific match-ups or types of matchups that wouldn't be used in most other cases
2333
1333

So if we have no niche sets, we are at 14 sets. I'd cut 2333, 1333, 1123, and 2233

This leaves us with

Critical sets:
1131
1133
1231
1233

Preferential sets:
1132
1331
1332
1221
1223
2231

Niche sets:
N/A

Now I'm probably missing something so feel free to work on this

 

[Oracle]

Why include side 1 more than twice? Its by far the worst side special. Why do we even need 1132? Why are 2 sets with side 1, the least useful side b, considered critical? This is exactly why we need to use the structure I posted in the last page, deriving the secondary sets from the two most important ones ( 1231 and 1232) rather than just deciding what is important arbitrarily on your opinion

1132 has two niche moves in fire gyro and side 1, and should not be considered for a set until you can show why one of the primary sets I posted would be better off replaced by it. For reference, the 11 sets I posted were

1231
1233
1131
1133
1331
1333
1232
1221
1223
2231
2233

Also even though I give equal weight to slip and normal gyro, if we need to choose it should really be slip. You can do wverything with slip gyro that you can do with normal, but with the added benefit of the gyro being able to trip players.

 

[Piford]

I put them as critical because if your in a matchup where you don't need to reflect anything and you want 1X3X then that would be the set to use. I used side 1 over 3 because I thought the consensus was side 1 was better than side 3 (although I like side 3 better).

I still think that fire gyro definitely shouldn't be paired with reflector arm because you'd want the extended range or standard gyro to help out range your opponent, so 1332 and 1132 would be the best fire gyro sets. We should make sure that we just aren't going derivations of the best moveset, but rather the moves that go together have good synergy.

So if we swap 1232 for 1332 on your list and we have to get rid of one set. We should make sure that whichever special we limit to one gyro that the gyro it's paired with has better synergy, whether it be default or slip.

 

[Oracle]

That sounds good. I would be looking at eliminating one of the side 3 sets because that seems the most situational. Which gyro would go better with side 3?

 

[PUK]

Side 3 allows to hit close range without tossing a gyro when you have it in hand. Slipping is not supposed to be toss anyway so standard or fire seems better.

 

[Piford]

I'm not exactly sure. Someone with the right resources should really lab all 3 gyros to figure out everything about them. Things like range , duration, hitboxes (this one is especially important since gyro has weird ones), ect.

The only thing that comes to mind is that Slip Gyro will go under Luma, so it might be better for the Rosalina matchup.

 

[CT Chia]

Sorry I didn't jump in here sooner. I had set email notifications for this thread but for some reason didn't get them.

Ok, so out of rob's special moves, the highest priority ones should be up 3, and side 2, since those are generally the best in almost all matchups. the best gyro is Probably tied between trip and neutral, and aside from those there are niche uses for fire gyro, robo rocket, backwards arm rotor, and wide angle laser. as such, the priority sets are

1231
1233

And the secondary sets with the other moves should be permutations of these sets. For example, the wide angle laser sets would be

2231
2233

This avoids having overly specific sets full of niche moves. I'll list out all of the sets for the niche moves

Back arm rotor

1331
1333

Robo rocket

1221
1223

Fire gyro

1232

Arm rotor

1131
1133

Which leaves us with 11 sets. what we need to ask is out of these

, a. Which sets would be used the least
b. Are there any sets with multiple niche moves would have more use than what is on currently? (Ie 1332 being uuseful over 1232 since you wouldnt really want fire gyro in mus where you need to reflect)

I think this post is sort of amazing lol. We can have 10 sets total, correct? I'm about to go on break at work, but I'll leave this open and re-read this in an hour or two to think of which should be removed, and some other analysis.

I will say quickly though before I go that I did test out some Back Arm Rotor more over the weekend, and I like it (in matchups where I don't need Reflector Arm to reflect projectiles, and I would always start with this in a blind pick due to importance). I also tested BAR vs Rosa, and while the last hit does still knock off Luma similarly to default Arm Rotor, it's much harder to land for sure due to how quick it is. The default Arm Rotor is definitely still the way to go for this, and possibly other things.

Be back soon~

 

[Piford]

Sorry I didn't jump in here sooner. I had set email notifications for this thread but for some reason didn't get them.



I think this post is sort of amazing lol. We can have 10 sets total, correct? I'm about to go on break at work, but I'll leave this open and re-read this in an hour or two to think of which should be removed, and some other analysis.

I will say quickly though before I go that I did test out some Back Arm Rotor more over the weekend, and I like it (in matchups where I don't need Reflector Arm to reflect projectiles, and I would always start with this in a blind pick due to importance). I also tested BAR vs Rosa, and while the last hit does still knock off Luma similarly to default Arm Rotor, it's much harder to land for sure due to how quick it is. The default Arm Rotor is definitely still the way to go for this, and possibly other things.

Be back soon~

This is kind of unrelated, but how do you usually handle blind picks with customs. Do you have to chose both characters and custom set at the same time, or do you blind pick character than blind pick custom set. I would think the latter would be better, more strategical, and more interesting.

Slightly more on topic, when we have our 10 sets we need to label 2 as optional for tournaments allowing uploads. When we do I think we should make sure these are different options. For example, if 1221 is a main set, than 1223 is optional.

 

[CT Chia]

I don't know yet, I haven't seen many events handle it. Personally from my experience as a TO, I would consider picking customs to happen at the same time as you picking your character in the counterpick or blind pick process. You're picking a specific version of that character.

Also while I'm thinking about it, does anyone know what some good set ups are when you trip someone with a slip gyro? The only issue I had with Oracle's post and layout is that he somewhat gave equal importance to default and slip gyro, which while it isn't bad since they are close in usability, for the move that offers a chance to trip opponents, how can ROB capitalize off of it? I've found it tough personally to capitalize off of this and punish a tripped opponent. The issue is that the Gyro is a projectile based move which typically works best at somewhat of a distance, and when you trip someone from a distance well, it's not easy (or possible at all) to follow up on. This is why I generally favor the default gyro in nearly all situations, since I can't really utilize the added benefit of the trip from the slip gyro, and I prefer the trajectory and uses of normal gyro.

 

[CT Chia]

Oracle suggested:

Priority Sets:
1231
1233

Wide Angle Laser Sets:
2231
2233

Back Arm Rotor Sets:
1331
1333

Robo Rocket Sets:
1221
1223

Fire Gyro Sets:
1232

Arm Rotor Sets:
1131
1133


Of these, I feel like we can ditch one of the Wide Angle Laser sets. The reason being is that the difference between WAL and Default Laser is less than the difference between BAR and Arm Rotor, and Rocket and High Speed Burner. There is less lost if the one WAL set isn't there, since if absolutely needed, it's close enough to that of the default Laser. I personally think that default Gyro is the move that we have more experience with in general, and thus the Slip Gyro is a tad more niche that we can live without. I suggest removing 2233.

Furthermore, I feel like that Robo Rocket is a very niche kind of thing for ROB. It really changes the character, and heavily modifies his recovery from what is otherwise one of his greater strengths. But that isn't to say it's useless, it gives him another kill option. But what I feel though is that Robo Rocket + Slip Gyro do nothing to compliment each other. You can't rocket someone out of a slip per se, and while there may be some people or uses that prefer the two together, I feel like it's not enough to set it apart from Robo Rocket + Default Gyro. I suggest removing 1223 as well.

Now we only needed to remove one set there, but I suggest removing both of these. The reason for this is to give another set to Fire Gyro. I personally dislike Fire Gyro, but I can understand where people would want to use it, and it offers up some difference apart from the standard gyro. It's for a bit more aggro and damaging playstyle, and for an aggressive attack, I feel like the Back Arm Rotor is likely preferred. Someone (who would want 1132) correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like the most beneficial set to add here would be 1332.

So I believe from Oracles list, remove 2233, remove 1223, and add 1332. Furthermore, since we need to label two sets as "optional" for events that allow 3DS uploads, I believe we should label this as the two sets that use a unique move, Robo Rocket and Wide Angle Laser, since they are the most niche of the sets that a smaller majority of players would utilize and know how to use. Chances are players wanting to use these have tested customs out extensively to their liking, and have already been prepared to be transferring them to consoles at tournaments. This leaves us with:

1231
1233
2231 ==optional==
1331
1333
1221 ==optional==
1232
1332
1131
1133

Thoughts?

 

[Oracle]

I really don't think trip gyro should be ignored for default. Generally you aren't following up after shooting a trip gyro with neutral b, true, but you already aren't following up with default gyro, so it's a moot point. At close range you do get a dash attack which picks up the gyro, giving you another potential follow up in item throw. Trip gyro does have a huge advantage as a trap, which normal gyro typically does not. Running in to a normal gyro means you eat maybe a few percent, but a slip gyro can mean a big followup with a grab, dash attack, or even running upsmash or fsmash. You can set it at certain ranges to cover an option from a ledge get up with a kill, which you can't do with other gyros. In addition, if you do want to shoot it out at long range, you just have to do a short hop down b, and the gyro goes much further and faster than the default gyro. From what I've tested and seen, default gyro gives no advantage over slip gyro while missing out on a ton of potential followups. At the very least, the slip gyro sets you cut should replace the default gyro sets.

In addition, i'm a little uncomfortable puttin another fire gyro set on 'just because'. Fire gyro is a straight up bad move with effectively no utility added for the tiny 'advantage' of more damage. Wide angle laser definitely adds more to the character than fire gyro, so imo the 2nd wide laser set should be included over fire gyro.

Lastly, because the 2nd fire gyro set adds so little, I would add that one to the optional list rather than the wide angle/robo rocket sets. So my list would be the same as yours, except 1221 and 2231 replaced with 1223 and 2233, as well as moving 1232 to optional

 

[CT Chia]

If someone rolls into a trip gyro you throw down/z drop after picking it up, do they take normal pop up knock back or do they trip?

 

[asmodeus]

I'm wondering why there's no regard to infinite robo beam ?
I think it can be useful for some match-ups where gyro is hard to use (Villager, maybe Rosalina...)

 

[PUK]

I don't know yet, I haven't seen many events handle it. Personally from my experience as a TO, I would consider picking customs to happen at the same time as you picking your character in the counterpick or blind pick process. You're picking a specific version of that character.

Also while I'm thinking about it, does anyone know what some good set ups are when you trip someone with a slip gyro? The only issue I had with Oracle's post and layout is that he somewhat gave equal importance to default and slip gyro, which while it isn't bad since they are close in usability, for the move that offers a chance to trip opponents, how can ROB capitalize off of it? I've found it tough personally to capitalize off of this and punish a tripped opponent. The issue is that the Gyro is a projectile based move which typically works best at somewhat of a distance, and when you trip someone from a distance well, it's not easy (or possible at all) to follow up on. This is why I generally favor the default gyro in nearly all situations, since I can't really utilize the added benefit of the trip from the slip gyro, and I prefer the trajectory and uses of normal gyro.

Dash grab is a guarented follow up (listed as a true combo in training) if you use it at a distance equal to 1/4 of final destination.
Also while standard gyro help to keep in neutral situation, slipping can give you a heavy advantage state sometimes. Finally Ftilt and Dtilt kb at low percent can send them on the gyro but it's gimmick.

Also about upb2 is it really predictible?
No it's not, actually this move is ****ing splendid. Don't let the one burst thing blind you: if you save your second jump, you can use an attack to get out of the upB animation and get back your second jump and all the options including FF and AD, and all specials. Like with all upB actually.
And did you see the height, with back air and gyro reverse and other strange tricks, you just have to hit the ground or a platform and it's over.
Finally i found that while the spike is not that powerful, the hitbox is huge, and you can hit beneath the ledge (it's hard to time but not easy to punish), or use it from far under the opponent ( everyone knows this i think). It makes Fair string more useful, with the ability to end it with a spike.

 

[Piford]

Dash grab is a guaranteed follow up (listed as a true combo in training) if you use it at a distance equal to 1/4 of final destination.
Also while standard gyro help to keep in neutral situation, slipping can give you a heavy advantage state sometimes. Finally Ftilt and Dtilt kb at low percent can send them on the gyro but it's gimmick.

Also about upb2 is it really predictable?
No it's not, actually this move is ****ing splendid. Don't let the one burst thing blind you: if you save your second jump, you can use an attack to get out of the upB animation and get back your second jump and all the options including FF and AD, and all specials. Like with all upB actually.
And did you see the height, with back air and gyro reverse and other strange tricks, you just have to hit the ground or a platform and it's over.
Finally i found that while the spike is not that powerful, the hitbox is huge, and you can hit beneath the ledge (it's hard to time but not easy to punish), or use it from far under the opponent ( everyone knows this i think). It makes Fair string more useful, with the ability to end it with a spike.

Wait you can refresh your second jump with Robo Rocket, how? Or do you mean that you can utilize your second jump out of Robo Rocket (which I believe is true for all the up-specials). Also Robo Rocket is more predictable because its one straight shot up, meaning if you want to sweet spot the ledge you have to be right under it, making your positioning predictable. That along with it not having a hitbox on R.O.B.'s head means you can get spiked easily. In addition, if you use it to recover, you now have to return to the stage to refuel. Up 3 is less predictable because of it's maneuverability and its ability to conserve fuel for later use.

And if we're going off @ CT Chia list with @ Oracle addition's then we should have this

Critical
1231
1233
1331
1333

Preferential
1332
2233

Niche
1131
1133

Optional
1221
1232

I listed 1231 and 1233 as critical for obvious reasons. I included 1331 and 1333 as critical because they would be needed for every matchup that either lack projectiles, or the projectiles are so bad that they aren't worth reflecting by R.O.B. or using by the opponent. 1131 and 1133 are niche since it seems their main use is dealing with Rosalina for most people, while they're still there for the people who want it over the other options.

For deciding between 2333 and 2331, I decided to use 2333 since the wide angle helps R.O.B. attack off stage from on stage, which is where slip gyro is lacking as it sticks to the floor.

For deciding between 1221 and 1223, I chose 1221 for essentially the opposite reason. Robo Rocket (from my experience) makes off stage game harder, so it appreciates how default gyro can hit opponents far off stage.

Thoughts? Did I make the right gyro choice, for 233X and 122X? Is everything labeled correctly? This has to be decided today (well not what things are labeled as, only optional for that matters today).

 

[Oracle]

Again, I want to emphasize that we should not give fire gyro more than one set. It is bad. Something like robo rocket would definitely give more utility than an additional fire gyro set. Imo your list is fine other than 1232 should be replaced with the 2nd robo rocket set (1233), since both robo rocket sets add a lot more than a 2nd fire gyro set. Also, why 2333? Wouldn't 2233 be better since the reflector is generally more useful?

 

[Piford]

Again, I want to emphasize that we should not give fire gyro more than one set. It is bad. Something like robo rocket would definitely give more utility than an additional fire gyro set. Imo your list is fine other than 1232 should be replaced with the 2nd robo rocket set (1233), since both robo rocket sets add a lot more than a 2nd fire gyro set. Also, why 2333? Wouldn't 2233 be better since the reflector is generally more useful?

2333 was a typo woops. Since you didn't say to remove 1232 and to put it as optional in your last post, that's what I did, but we can swap it for 1233 if needed.

 

[Oracle]

I would push to replace it with 1223. One fire gyro set is enough imo

 

[CT Chia]

Fine by me tbqh, cause I think Fire Gyro (... and robo rocket ) is bad

 

[asmodeus]

Seriously, we should consider Infinite robo beam for Villager match up.

Robo rocket doesn't deserve 2 slots imo (like fire gyro and wide angle beam).

I would replace 1232 (or 1223) by 3231 (or another side B, I'm not sur which one is better against Villager)

 

[PUK]

Seriously you would consider the only beam without transcendance ability in this particular MU? Do you want to be camped for the first time of your life? This was the worst advice of this thread.
You have to take wide angled cause it's the more spammable and still can hit behind gyroide and tree.

 

[asmodeus]

But this match-up IS about camping anyway.

It's not the question to know if you like the 3rd laser or not. If somebody has found a use for this move, it should be saved in 1 slot.

Considering that all moves have at least 1 slot safe and we have about no idea for the last one, why can't we fill it with the last custom unused ?

 

[PUK]

I think you don't see something: no transcendance means that if the villager put a tree you can't touch him with laser. But it means that he can use Nair to clank, gyroide to protect himself and blablabla too.
That means you can't cover your approach, and he will sends gyroide and Fair for days. From a bad matchup you place yourself in a worst match up.
The fact that i personnally don't like this move has no influence in its awfulness. It's has the worst starting and ending lag, does the worst damage and need a so long time to fully charge that i could question the utility of waiting.
Even fire gyro has pros
And rocket jump, which you find bad, is still one of the best recovery of the game, and you could sell to a lot of the cast for enough money to buy Diddy's Fair.

 

[asmodeus]

But every customs you've quoted have already a safe spot. So what's the problem ?

The proposal to fill with 1223 seems a little weird. Rocket jump can be hard punished by a random weak hitbox like projectiles but reflecting arms suggests the oppenent to have a campy character. Don't you think there's some contradiction ?

 

[PUK]

We have 10 spot. If a custom set doesn't add anything (power safety or mixup for exemple) from an other custom set, then there is no reason to pick this set in a match. So there is no reason to put the set in the first place.
Infinite beam can be defended in a single situation: you play double and your teammate doesn't like to handle your laser. And this situation makes firing a laser the worst thing to do.
So we shouldn't have a infinite set, but if you bring combo, or things which could add utility from another set, then the discussion will be possible.

 

[asmodeus]

I've already explain that can be use in Villager's MU. It's not your style to use this laser in this specific MU, that's fine, but don't exclude it for everybody, it makes no sense.
I think that spamming Laser is really important in that case even with the loss of transcendance. ROB has still more range than Villager and I think it matters here.

And I don't know what extra mix up we can have with another set that hasn't been shown yet.

 

[PUK]

Ok so find a set we can erase, and why a set with N3 would be better. Put your argument on the table, i will put mine, piford too and etc. And let's do it because it's possible is not an argument.
Evo is not a custom show, it's a compétition, with money and sponsor for winners. So if players like chibo arrives at EVO and see sets they can't use competitively because they are bad or because a better set exist next to them, and because of that some set which could be better in some situation are absent, these players will be mad at us, because we are responsible of the custom set at EVO.
I won't be at EVO, so i'm not personnally concerned. And i don't anticipate a lot of ROB player because they are rare like jewels. But it's not a reason to advocate a set just because i like it. I try to defend it, with logic, exemples agaisnt human and CPU opponent, and theorycrafting.
I verify What i said for exemple, and nair stop infinite beam. Not sure about Ftilt because i was lazy and CPU doesn't spam laser.

 

[asmodeus]

Ok so find a set we can erase, and why a set with N3 would be better. Put your argument on the table, i will put mine, piford too and etc. And let's do it because it's possible is not an argument.

The last trash spot where nobody seems to agree ?

I mean... 2 fire gyro sets seems too much (or doesn't miss anybody) and robo rocket doesn't synergize with slip gyro or reflector arms. There's just a try to do a kind of melting pot because we don't know what to make.
It doesn't seems there's an absolute missing setting, given that previous settings cover most of options.
Don't get me wrong, but I just suggest something that could add an option to rob, that's all.

Evo is not a custom show, it's a compétition, with money and sponsor for winners. So if players like chibo arrives at EVO and see sets they can't use competitively because they are bad or because a better set exist next to them, and because of that some set which could be better in some situation are absent, these players will be mad at us, because we are responsible of the custom set at EVO.

Don't overstate, it's just about a setting to cover a percent of ROB's options (since the most important settings have been saved).

I won't be at EVO, so i'm not personnally concerned. And i don't anticipate a lot of ROB player because they are rare like jewels. But it's not a reason to advocate a set just because i like it. I try to defend it, with logic, exemples agaisnt human and CPU opponent, and theorycrafting.

What a coincidence, I was trying the same, let's be friends ! :D

 

[PUK]

So currently sets that are still in discussion are 1221, 1223 and i could add 1131 as it's a subpar 1133 in his niche.
Robot rocket doesn't synergize with anything, but it's situationnal in a gameplan anyway. If you look at it, fast burner doesn't synergize either with the other moves.
I played a lot against rocket, with rocket, and i look 2 CPU fight each other to see if it is easily gimpable or not (it's really depressing if you hope IA like in movies, currently CPU are like mouses who do move you don't know why).
Anyway the few match up where rocket is not safe at all are ROB, Peach, ike, ganondorf, Zelda, ness link and bowser junior. There is maybe a few more like marcina. But basically you need an item or a fast big hitbox aerial, read the way and the timing and place yourself. And it's not easy at all, sometimes punishable if you fail, and useless if rob keep his 2nd jump. Also in these match up, fast burner don't make coming onstage easy, just more forgiving if you're read or if the opponent can edgeguard you on réaction. And the spike is frightening, it makes edgeguard unsafe. If you whiff a downair, or if your big aerial is laggy, then man it's over. I, as pit, have been punished for whiffing a Nair.
So learn how to use this enhanced spring jump and you will see the usefulness.

 

[CT Chia]

I would like for 1131 to still be included, and it hasn't been in discussion at all like you're saying. It's one of my most used sets, and one of the sets centered around High Speed Burner, which is his most favored custom.

 

[Oracle]

I would like for 1131 to still be included, and it hasn't been in discussion at all like you're saying. It's one of my most used sets, and one of the sets centered around High Speed Burner, which is his most favored custom.

It's included in @ Piford 's list. Sorry to infinite beam supporters, but we have already determined how bad that move is. apparently the deadline is today so I think we should go for the last list piford posted but with 1223 over 1232. Fpr reference, here is that list

Critical
1231
1233
1331
1333

Preferential
1332
2233
Niche
1131
1133
Optional
1221
1223

It seems like that's fine with everyone here, and I think we should push that as the final decision

 

[CT Chia]

Looks good to me, except is there a difference between Critical, Preferenctial, and Niche (if there is one)? I thought it's just 8 required and 2 optional.

 

[Piford]

Looks good to me, except is there a difference between Critical, Preferenctial, and Niche (if there is one)? I thought it's just 8 required and 2 optional.

It's just to sort of prioritize them, as you want to have the sets used more often should go towards the top. So I organized them by groups by number.

 

[PUK]

I agree with the list as it is now.

 

[Deleted member 278362]

[ removed ]