Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Marth

[Quickhero]

@ mega4000 I don't put any stats on my amiibos for the sole purpose of practice haha, although really originally the only reason why I bought a Yoshi amiibo is because I have a Yoshi collection that needed an amiibo lol.

Well, to be honest, the default set CAN go against every single character in the game, it just requires a lot of reads and he's definitely not as great as default, but if for some reason customs don't become a norm you shouldn't just suddenly assume Marth CAN'T compete with the top tiers. Mini rant aside, I get what you're saying, what makes it EASIER and less lopsided of a match-up. Well, in my opinion 3121 or 3123 are the customs that should be picked if you're not in a bad match-up that will make it hard as hell to not get gimped/not in Lylat Cruise. It just gives Marth the access to the most mix-ups and the access to a very viable combo that sets up from a grab (which is just amazing in this game) AND can kill relatively early if you're on the edge. If you're in a match-up and/or stage that requires you to get better vertical recovery and a better OoS, something like 3111 or 1113 is in order. Dolphin Jump is for when you need to be extremely deep/when you desire better edgeguarding over combos, really.

 

[mega4000]

@ mega4000 I don't put any stats on my amiibos for the sole purpose of practice haha, although really originally the only reason why I bought a Yoshi amiibo is because I have a Yoshi collection that needed an amiibo lol.

Well, to be honest, the default set CAN go against every single character in the game, it just requires a lot of reads and he's definitely not as great as default, but if for some reason customs don't become a norm you shouldn't just suddenly assume Marth CAN'T compete with the top tiers. Mini rant aside, I get what you're saying, what makes it EASIER and less lopsided of a match-up. Well, in my opinion 3121 or 3123 are the customs that should be picked if you're not in a bad match-up that will make it hard as hell to not get gimped/not in Lylat Cruise. It just gives Marth the access to the most mix-ups and the access to a very viable combo that sets up from a grab (which is just amazing in this game) AND can kill relatively early if you're on the edge. If you're in a match-up and/or stage that requires you to get better vertical recovery and a better OoS, something like 3111 or 1113 is in order. Dolphin Jump is for when you need to be extremely deep/when you desire better edgeguarding over combos, really.

I know you didn't put stats on your yoshi amiibo, but the amiibo has hidden stats the greater the level is. So it doesn't matter if you let your amiibo in blank, because even if you don't put anything, he will get hidden stats.

 

[Krysco]

I can confirm the stat boosts of the Amiibo's at least on the offensive side, not sure about defensive. I've got a Fox and a Marth one and my cousin has a Link one and I recall a single uncharged usmash from the Link doing 30+%.

I'm also glad to see Crescant Slash getting love. My usual set is 3121 but I go for 1121 sometimes. I really need to try Lai Counter more since it buffs recovery a bit and I hear a lot of praise for it. As for Heavy Blade, it's too slow for my liking especially since only the last hits are worth hitting with. I might start considering side 2 though cuz during my training of my Marth amiibo it kept getting out of Dancing Blade angled up at higher percents. Gotta give side 2 more testing to see if it's easy to get out of, if it is then I'll stick with Dancing Blade.

 

[Raijinken]

I'm leaning towards 1121 or 1(heavy)21 right now, since I realized a full charged Dashing Assault won't break a shield.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That's not what it's for though, so why are you stating that as a flaw?

Shieldbreaker vs anyone with a brain will never break a shield either.

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

The sets I personally use are 3111 & 3131. I'm probably echoing at this point in the conversation, but Dashing Assault is hands-down Marth's best custom, as while Shield Breaker may have gotten buffed in strength, the range of it is still pretty lacking (at least compared to what it used to have), and on top of that, shields got buffed, too, so the main thing I find myself using SB for is recovery when launched high.

DA goes about the same distance as a fully-charged SB, so that recovery boost is instantaneous, and it goes forward on the ground, to boot, so while it may not be effective at breaking shields by any means, it's overall much more useful. In addition, it's great for interrupting opponents' attacks, as the hurtbox is very difficult to reach (in fact, it's impossible to do such from the front), so it's invaluable for mix-ups and keeping Marth's damage percentage to a minimum.

Dolphin Jump is an insane recovery move. The lack of a hitbox is more than made up for, because it's on the same level as Fire Fox & Power of Flight in terms of distance, and it's arguably an even better move than them, as there's virtually no start-up time and a very large i-frame window. Combined with DA, Marth's recovery is quite literally god-like, as he can come back from just about anything that didn't send him into the blast zone. The only downsides are that he loses his best offensive out-of-shield option and the potential to stage spike when recovering against a risky edgeguard.

Now, for some unconventional stuff, I've seen some good uses for Storm Thrust & Crescent Slash. Storm Thrust I've used myself a few times, namely against characters that have a tough time recovering, and I've fallen victim to a few stock-ending d-throw to CS combos before. ST is also effective at stopping certain approaches, which can lead to some good follow-ups (in some cases, tipped f-smashes). I think it would be fitting for them to find their way into the lower end of the slot numbers.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Was messing with Heavy Blade. It is not good. Plain and simple. You have hella long to tech before a character actually hits the ground from the first strike. And you can still just roll away if you miss the tech. The attack just is not good at all.

 

[NoMarthLeftBehind]

The sets I personally use are 3111 & 3131. I'm probably echoing at this point in the conversation, but Dashing Assault is hands-down Marth's best custom, as while Shield Breaker may have gotten buffed in strength, the range of it is still pretty lacking (at least compared to what it used to have), and on top of that, shields got buffed, too, so the main thing I find myself using SB for is recovery when launched high.

DA goes about the same distance as a fully-charged SB, so that recovery boost is instantaneous, and it goes forward on the ground, to boot, so while it may not be effective at breaking shields by any means, it's overall much more useful. In addition, it's great for interrupting opponents' attacks, as the hurtbox is very difficult to reach (in fact, it's impossible to do such from the front), so it's invaluable for mix-ups and keeping Marth's damage percentage to a minimum.

Dolphin Jump is an insane recovery move. The lack of a hitbox is more than made up for, because it's on the same level as Fire Fox & Power of Flight in terms of distance, and it's arguably an even better move than them, as there's virtually no start-up time and a very large i-frame window. Combined with DA, Marth's recovery is quite literally god-like, as he can come back from just about anything that didn't send him into the blast zone. The only downsides are that he loses his best offensive out-of-shield option and the potential to stage spike when recovering against a risky edgeguard.

Now, for some unconventional stuff, I've seen some good uses for Storm Thrust & Crescent Slash. Storm Thrust I've used myself a few times, namely against characters that have a tough time recovering, and I've fallen victim to a few stock-ending d-throw to CS combos before. ST is also effective at stopping certain approaches, which can lead to some good follow-ups (in some cases, tipped f-smashes). I think it would be fitting for them to find their way into the lower end of the slot numbers.

I've had trouble with using Dolphin Slash. It almost seems too fast for me.

Anyway, I find that my custom Marth doesn't really need any different moves, just stat boosts in attack and speed. When I do change things, I usually change that Shield Breaker.

 

[Piford]

So why isn't Iai counter used on almost every set? It seems much better than counter since its drawback is just less active frames. It should at least have one set with crescent slash, so like 3123 or 1123.

 

[Quickhero]

So why isn't Iai counter used on almost every set? It seems much better than counter since its drawback is just less active frames. It should at least have one set with crescent slash, so like 3123 or 1123.

It's good and all, but it's really not THAT good. You can actually miss your counters if your opponent is REALLY close to you and, while not the biggest reason not to use it, it's still slightly weaker and in neutral I would rather have normal counter to punish than Iai whenever I will use Counter. Also some moves like Villager's U-Smash hit through Iai Counter so you just end up screwing yourself over there. (Grant it, you shouldn't take Crescent Slash against Villager anyways, but point still stands)

Idk, I personally have had some good experiences with it, but enough bad to make me think twice before making this the "end all down-b custom."

 

[Emblem Lord]

It is the end all down B custom.

 

[Piford]

It's good and all, but it's really not THAT good. You can actually miss your counters if your opponent is REALLY close to you and, while not the biggest reason not to use it, it's still slightly weaker and in neutral I would rather have normal counter to punish than Iai whenever I will use Counter. Also some moves like Villager's U-Smash hit through Iai Counter so you just end up screwing yourself over there. (Grant it, you shouldn't take Crescent Slash against Villager anyways, but point still stands)

Idk, I personally have had some good experiences with it, but enough bad to make me think twice before making this the "end all down-b custom."

I thought that it's stronger than regular counter, and that weaker was a misdescription in the game. From what I understand, it does 1.3x the damage instead of 1.2x and it has backwards knockback instead of whatever the normal knockback was.

 

[Quickhero]

I thought that it's stronger than regular counter, and that weaker was a misdescription in the game. From what I understand, it does 1.3x the damage instead of 1.2x and it has backwards knockback instead of whatever the normal knockback was.

Perhaps it might be the fact that I'm not able to comfortably get tipper Iai Counter, then. I guess it's my lack of comfortability. However, I still really dislike how lingering hitboxes like Villager's U-Smash can make it so you're still going to get hit by it when you wouldn't otherwise, and it REALLY screws me over when I'm facing someone such as Villager or Shulk. That's why I don't take it against them.

I'm probably just not comfortable with Iai Counter, though. 80% of the time it likely is better, but with certain match-ups it works pretty damn well to just have the normal.

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

I've had trouble with using Dolphin Slash. It almost seems too fast for me.

Anyway, I find that my custom Marth doesn't really need any different moves, just stat boosts in attack and speed. When I do change things, I usually change that Shield Breaker.

Equipment isn't legal in tournaments, though.

 

[Shaya]

Iai = 1.4x
Norm = 1.2x

Iai will be stronger on moves dealing 5.7% or more, it will kill sub 80-90%
It also activates 3 frames (2x) faster.

 

[NoMarthLeftBehind]

Equipment isn't legal in tournaments, though.

Gotcha. Wasn't aware of that.

 

[Ryoku]

I think people are underestimating the active frames of Lai Counter. Yeah, when it lands, it is, hands-down, the best counter Marth/Lucina have. But landing it can be a challenge for some, and that's, in my opinion, understated.

Personally, I use Lai Counter. Once you can read and anticipate attacks by the opponnent really well, you have no reason to use the normal counter.

 

[Xisin]

So wait does Iai counter do more damage but less knockback? It also appears to outright whiff on certain characters if used in the air vertically equal to an opponent. Like his lunge forward messes with it, i.e some nairs causes this.

Hopefully it's just me messing up because being countered by a recovering marth with this move on can spell doom for many lol/

 

[LoreLes]

Kind of wish the preset let me use 3123.

 

[Piford]

So what are we looking at for Marth's full list? From what I gather, it seems like this should be it,

3111
1113
1133
1121
3133
3131
3113
3121
3123
1131

The notable sets that are not included are
1123
2111
1311

I feel like 1123 should probably replace one set. Either 1121 or 1131. Any other thoughts?

 

[Manta]

3133
3131

Dolphin Jump and Dashing Assault give Ike tier recovery... if Ike could use Aether after using Quickdraw. It's pretty ridiculous.

I think Dolphin Jump will become a standard, at least on Final Destination; the standard Dolphin Slash is pretty useless offensively without any platforms imo.

Thank you, several people craped on me for suggesting that customs-on Marth isn't the 5th worst character.

 

[LoreLes]

I at least want a set that has Dashing Assault and Crescent slash together.

 

[Xisin]

3123, 3133 and 3113 should be the standard imo. with 3123 being the strongest. Crescent isnt that bad as a recovery, the only time you want dolphin jump is when you have to go deep for a gimp, you can't do that with cs. Also i wouldn't advise dashing assault + crescent as a recovery together. Crescent has more than enough horizoontal recovery + works well with vertical if you angle it back enough. Standard shield breaker is ridiculously bad vs opponents with a good reaction time.

 

[Krysco]

No matter what neutral B you pick, they all help with horizontal recovery and none of them (to my knowledge) help with vertical. Shield Breaker doesn't break shields too often though it does make them riskier to rely on, Storm Thrust is meh and Dashing Assault at least catches landings and is good for when the opponent lands from tumble.

 

[Wilyen]

No matter what neutral B you pick, they all help with horizontal recovery and none of them (to my knowledge) help with vertical. Shield Breaker doesn't break shields too often though it does make them riskier to rely on, Storm Thrust is meh and Dashing Assault at least catches landings and is good for when the opponent lands from tumble.

dolphin jump help vertical recovery

 

[Krysco]

dolphin jump help vertical recovery

I was talking about the neutral B. Dolphin Jump is an up B custom.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Seems like we all agree on Marth's strongest set.

3123

Neutral B 3 - Dashing Assault

Increases Marths control game in terms of landing traps and what he can actually punish. With DA Marth can consistently bully people to the ledge. The hitbox stays out quite some time and since it's transcendent it will beat virtually any move head on except those with armor or invincibility. This attack is not to be spammed. It ties together his trap game and let's him flow from one trap to another that much more easily.

Side B 1 - Dancing Blade

Can't beat the original. The other Side specials simply aren't as good. DB gives Marth a solid punish option that leads into either a juggle/land trap or ledge trap depending on stage positioning.

Up B 2 - Crescent Slash

This attack nullifies Marth's main weakness. Not having any good confirms or good damage off grabs. With this special any grab can turn into a free Up B for a solid 16% or more depending on if Marth did any grab hits or not. With no rage this can kill at the ledge around 80%. With rage it can kill in the 60's or lower depending on the character Marth is fighting. This special is what moves Marth from lower mid tier to solid high tier. This special also directly enforces Marths strong footsie game. Pokes that force opponents to be respectful and play defensive now fall prey to grab combos with kill potential. This doesnt hurt his recovery so much as it changes it. Now Marth has strong horizontal recovery, but poor vertical recovery instead of vice versa. It does hurt his edge guarding game however. But the trade off is worth it. This attack also vastly increases Marths air trap territory. If Marth has an opponent in the air and the land on a platform with an airdodge, this move will punish them harshly and even kill if they have high enough percent. It can also catch unwary opponents in the air who think they have escaped Marths control when they are attempting to land safely from an air trap situation.

Down B 3 - Iai Counter

It's just a better counter plain and simple. Can aid recovery if he is attacked and even stage spike opponents when used as an edgeguarding tool. Not active for long, but start-up is very fast at 3 frames. Even if it doesn't hit the opponent, the dashing animation gets Marth out of danger pretty consistently making it a huge boon for getting out of bad spots.


BTW, in matches that I tested this set online I have been doing well. However I hated how my edgeguarding game was reduced. Then I remembered this video. Trump traps ftw.

Also Crescent Slash is gold. The last part of the hitbox basically slices through the whole front of the ledge of any stage. This makes it very hard for opponents to stand at the ledge attempting to trump you or ledge trap you. They really have to respect you.

On the opposite end Marth is deadly with a trump trap. If they go for a re-grab then a tipper f-smash can kill very early since you are at the ledge. With no DI you could kill as low as 40% even with no rage. With good DI 50%. With rage and no DI lolol. 30% bruh

Of course you can also just ledge drop double jump Bair. Alternatively if they regrab the ledge you can run off bair for a stage spike. If they choose to go for the stage they risk eating Crescent Slash and dying. This situation heavily favors Marth. His opponent will either die or take damage and be reset into a ledge trap again, as long as the Marth player executes the trap properly.

Marth has alot of options and I feel is easily one of the scariest characters in the game that utilizes this trap, if not THE scariest.

 

[Wilyen]

doesn't 3123 make marth very gimpable below stage?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Soooooooo, don't go below the stage?

 

[Wilyen]

easier said than done.

but what's the pros and cons of effortless blade? cause no one has talked about that move.

 

[Xisin]

Right, that's why you don't recover low (though out of habit ill drop down there sometime still ><) Space your recovery so crescent will tip at the ledge. makes it very dangerous.

Edit:

Effortless to be blunt doesn't seem to combo, To make matters worse in most cases you have to tell your opponent which move set you use. if they know you only have DB reds to use... it's very bad. Against a knowledgeable opponent expect to be punished for using it. It's also weak. There really is no reason to use it from what I can tell as it's easier to di out of and doesn't seem to combo as well as standard. Heavy blades is useful but not as useful as DB standard. For some really huge fun load up heavy in doubles then have your partner grab your opponent at 100% stand at center of stage partner edge. Start up heavy blades. it'll tip them at the ledge for a kill... It's hilarious. It's marths longest range slash easily. I just wish I knew how to implement it. Also it kills ridiculously early on with DB 4 Red. Kills well on Blue also.

 

[Piford]

So is everyone okay with the list @ Quickhero posted

3123
3133
3113
1133
1123
3131
1131
1113
3121
2113

The only set that seems notable that's missing is 3111 for people who don't like how strict Iai counter is.

 

[Shaya]

I'm still not buying crescent slash. Please show me your in-tournament energy.
Because the weight of no off stage game and although not extensively tested not real throw follow ups (could be character dependent) doesn't sit with me.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You want me to test that it combos? I have done it offline and online. Even with DI it can combo till about 70% but its char dependent.

Even if it doesn't combo at kill percents, you still put them in a situation where a bad airdodge will be their doom.

Seems like we have a role reversal Shaya. You were going ape **** over CS when the game first dropped and now I'm the one defending it.

 

[Shaya]

Horizontal vectoring still exists
But yeah, I want the in tournament business dealings before I believe. I'm too much of a fan of base tools.
I'm personally only opting for 1113. The amount of my kills that stem from spaced shield breakers or off stage game equates to me not wanting to make sacrifices on well-practiced areas for results I've only 'heard' dubiously.

 

[Xisin]

The "combo" of crescent (fthrow -> react -> crescent) requires you the fthrow watch opponent di then react. There's about 3-4 ways to do it. It's use isn't only combos though, you can really catch people off guard who recover high by just crescenting anytime they're at about a 45 degree angle above you... kills nicely. You can still up b oos with it, I'm not entirely sure what the frame data is on it though. The recovery isn't bad. The real only downfall is that you can't really go under the stage... but hell that mu dependent (harassing rob with dolphin slash under the stage is the best.)

I'll be doing a customs tourney in April. I'm not sure if I'll be in one til then... I'll be using it then.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Horizontal vectoring still exists
But yeah, I want the in tournament business dealings before I believe. I'm too much of a fan of base tools.
I'm personally only opting for 1113. The amount of my kills that stem from spaced shield breakers or off stage game equates to me not wanting to make sacrifices on well-practiced areas for results I've only 'heard' dubiously.

why dont you..ya know..test it in tourney yourself?

 

[LoreLes]

Just going to say, but no rage Marth can combo easily with fthrow into CS and you WILL get smacked. If we're talking outside of fthrow, this CS can be used to trap people from shorthopping.

 

[Umby]

Not really the most solid of Marths, but I'll be attending a customs tournament tomorrow. I suppose I could report in my experience, if it helps.

Didn't think I'd like Crescent Slash as much as I have in the past 20 minutes. I'll definitely be messing with it more.

I must ask, I really love Shield Breaker. Even though I notice the pattern, players love to dash + shield against me to try and make me commit. Shield Breaker has been one of my deterrents for such a tactic. Are there any particular situations or matchups where Shield Breaker > Dashing Assault and vice versa?

 

[Xisin]

in order for shieldbreaker to work against an experienced opponent they A. must not have a full shield, and B. not be able to react to the telegraphed attack. I've broken many many shields in tourney play, however, once you get to top 8 it magically stops working. Reasoning - they tend not to fall for those shenanigans. Usually what happens is they'll spot dodge it and I'll get punished or they eat it/ps with a full shield then play super safe for the 5 seconds it takes their shield to grow back. I'm not saying that they can't mess up. I'm just saying it harder to get the move to work the deeper the bracket gets.

DA lets you move faster to a falling opponent and allows you to drift back then use to punish ff fairs. I want to know if it consistently works on a tomahawking sheik.