Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Marth

[Amazing Ampharos]

Welcome to the official Smashboards Standard Custom Set project. In brief, this project is designed to be a logistical solution to using custom movesets in tournaments by filling many of the in-game slots with the most popular and powerful sets for each character so they can be quickly selected without further 3ds import. This will allow tournaments with customizations on to save large amounts of time throughout the event. More details about the project's ideas and mission can be found here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

Our goal here is to find out what the most popular and powerful sets are for your particular character the best way we know how: asking you the mains of this character. To be clear, we're not talking about disallowing any particular custom sets or even imposing any rules in general; we're talking about making sure the popular and powerful options are simply accessible quickly in a tournament environment as our sole mission. We need up to three critical sets that represent the best options your character has that have wide general utility and from there to fill up to slot 6 with supplemental movesets that will cover less mainstream, more match-up specific, or even teams sets. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow all moves to be explored more easily in the new metagame, and slots 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import of non-standard sets.

Please list all movesets in the order NSUD, that is neutral special, side special, up special, and down special. This four digit code will be the naming convention so players can quickly and easily identify which moveset is which.

I know for many characters the default moveset, 1111, is a powerful and useful option. However, it should not be included; the game allows default to be picked regardless of what custom options are prepared so including it does not add any additional options to players.

I further know that some characters may find six slots a large number to fill. Others may find six very limiting. Do your best to pick out the overall six most likely to be picked even if some good stuff has to be left on the table or if some more experimental sets have to be included to fill out six. Every set included is time saved in tournament when that set would be picked, and we want to make the best use we can of these slots.

I would ask that everyone please be respectful of each other's opinions; this game is young, and the metagame is still very much forming so we are likely to each perceive it differently. This project will be revisited throughout the game's lifespan and revised to properly include the most mainstream movesets at the time. What we want for now is what will be commonly selected for now, and don't worry, other options are not being discriminated against as those last two slots are left open for 3ds transfer for a reason. This first version of this project will be refined throughout the rest of the year, but I hope to have a very rough draft up and usable by December 5 so TOs who wish to use the results of this project will have something to plug in for that weekend's worth of events. Thank you for your cooperation in this project, and we look forward to making sure the most useful options are quickly available for your character under this system.

Like I said on the Lucina board, I know these two have very similar special moves and that many Marth players are also very familiar with Lucina and may have things to say relevant to both. If that's the case, please cross-post; the differences between Marth and Lucina are significant enough that it is conceivable different special moves might be preferred.

 

[Tattles]

3133
3131

Dolphin Jump and Dashing Assault give Ike tier recovery... if Ike could use Aether after using Quickdraw. It's pretty ridiculous.

I think Dolphin Jump will become a standard, at least on Final Destination; the standard Dolphin Slash is pretty useless offensively without any platforms imo.

Dashing Assault is nice, at least for me, as I hardly ever use Shield Breaker, honestly.

Iai counter has it's uses, it's all about positioning and really taking advantage of it. Does anyone know if it has the same knockback as normal Counter?

 

[EternalFlame]

I'm a bit more indifferent to the customs, but I'll have to mess with them at some point. That said, I'm assuming it will be legal to go all standard Marth moves during custom tournaments?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm a bit more indifferent to the customs, but I'll have to mess with them at some point. That said, I'm assuming it will be legal to go all standard Marth moves during custom tournaments?

Yes, and in fact, default is always available to pick no matter how customs are set up on the Wii U.

 

[Moydow]

Just going to copy what I had on the Lucina thread

Dancing Blade customs are not great, so generally going to be sticking to the default there.

Dashing Assault is going to be preferred over Shield Breaker in most instances, but it may be worthwhile to offer Shield Breaker as an option. Likewise for Dolphin Jump over Dolphin Slash, and possibly also Rush Counter over default.

Crescent Slash and Storm Thrust have their uses, but probably aren't going to be seen as often as their alternatives. Easy Counter is worthless.

So I'd have
3133
3113
3131
1133
1131
1113

and those should cover most players.

 

[Shaya]

Okay, so I thought I'd look at this semi-mathematically.

3^4 is how many options there are, cannot fit that many.

So let's look at what moves we don't use:
1. Storm Thrust (N2)
2. Easy Dancing Blade (S2)
3. Easy Counter (D2)
4. Crescent (U2)

I guess crescent can have a niche to some players perhaps, but it currently isn't likely a choice for Marth in anything other than perhaps doubles?
Furthermore I would say that Heavy Blade won't be used, however knowing what cheese is available with it, perhaps people would want it.
Anyway, with the above list in mind, we actually reduce our option spread to 2^4, which is 16! We're almost there. I'll take out heavy blade as well and then we have 2x1x2x2, exactly eight; with one being 1111.

So here's the list of all choices Marth and Lucina should want.
1111
1113
1131
1133
3111
3113
3131
3133

Knowing 1111 is the default, we can likely fit in a heavy blade or crescent slash set... or maybe even a storm thrust set for the "theoretical" ness/mac/etc scenarios.
Let's just call it the 3333 set. If people actually come to want some of those extremely niche specials, they aren't known, yet.

Now to conclude, I'd say it's about ordering them by preference (bias time):

1. 3131
2. 1131
3. 3133
4. 3113
5. 1133
6. 1113 <- Likely my preferred set tbh.
7. 3111
8. 3333 [overflow]

 

[xNaught]

I'm prefering the standard Dolphin Slash right now.

I rarely find myself being put so far down that I need Dolphin Jump. I usually get killed outright before that starts happening. Also, it seems that there is a certain distance in which you can use Dolphin Slash, snap to the ledge, AND hit the opponent if they're standing close enough to the ledge. While it's not amazing, it can disrupt a ledge guard attempt.

 

[Foodies]

Shaya's post = this thread. Just to voice preferences, I'd use 3111, 1113, or 3113.

It might be worth looking into Crescent Slash again with the removal of VI.

 

[Shaya]

It might be worth looking into Crescent Slash again with the removal of VI.

That's actually genius and something I had completely forgotten about in terms of why I didn't like crescent slash (because holding up was too easy).
Likely not going to have the opportunity to try it any time soon, but likely worth having another look over for sure.

 

[Locuan]

I mentioned it on the Lucina thread but I will mention it here as well:

I do not know if this still occurs in Patch 1.04, but Lucina could guarantee a combo on short Characters with Crescent Slash. Therefore, if this still holds true, it could be a viable option to have the previously mentioned sets have a variant with Crescent Slash in order to have some sort of advantage in those match-ups. For example, I have a 3133 set and a 3123 set on my 3DS for those match-ups.

@ Amazing Ampharos you helped Thinkaman on the data recollection for the above linked thread. Do you know if it is still something that combo's in Patch 1.04?

If this still happens then Crescent Slash is definitely a viable option and a set to consider regarding those match-ups.

 

[Shaya]

I would assume some of those aerial grab releases are still there, but more importantly with vectoring gone, stuff like forward throw crescent slash may legitimately be a combo at kill percent like 100% of the time.

 

[xNaught]

I would assume some of those aerial grab releases are still there, but more importantly with vectoring gone, stuff like forward throw crescent slash may legitimately be a combo at kill percent like 100% of the time.

I've been testing this and it's pretty reliable.

Even Bowser dies from the combo at ~75% near the edge on Battlefield.

 

[Shaya]

Against players. I already know exactly what forward throw to crescent slash does.

 

[Marthmario]

My personal setup for Marth and Lucina is as follows:

• Assault Dash: I feel like this is their best neutral special, as it breaks shields and can still be used for recovery and even mind games.
• Effortless Blade: I use this side special, because it's easier to time the inputs and it's more effective than the standard one.
• Dolphin Jump: I'm not sure how I feel about their recovery specials, but to me Dolphin Jump is the most effective.
• Iai Counter: Super Fast and it just feels absolutely perfect to use, plus knocking opponents off the stage is a plus.

These are my personal favorites, and I feel like they make Marth and Lucina ultimately better.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I bring this from Reddit,

I know this isn't all that different, but I personally think 1113 is one of/if not the best setup.

The reason I like Iai counter is that its practically a better counter altogether; it does x1.4 damage instead of x1.2 damage and sends the opponent back instead of forward but gives a smaller activation window. With good reads, the drawback on this custom is negligible

Actually, along with 1113, 1133, 3133, 3113, and 3131 are also very viable options; Dolphin Jump (U3) gives you a hell of a lot more recovery and can help you better offstage. Dashing assault (N3) can also help aid your recovery greatly, as if you could use Ike's QD then UP B. Dashing Assault is a good option if you don't use Sheild Breaker as much, like me.

To note, none of Marth's Dancing Blade options are really any good because they seem noticeably worse than the original move. Also, Marth's second custom move options are atrocious and are barely ever useful

4 upvotes

I use 1121

Forward Throw -> Up-B is a really good punish out of a grab with this special on, and can kill pretty reliably near the edges of a stage. It can also cover a high recovering player with a very fast, surprising strike that could easily kill.

 

[Toxicroaker]

I'm really surprised at no up 2 sets. It's really pretty good. True combos out of a grab that can kill are really good. Granted, it doesn't usually kill, but still. The option is definitely worth consitering, and a much better option than counter changes, which don't change much in your playstile.

 

[Foodies]

Since making my previous post, I played around with Crescent Slash a bit more and I think it is good enough to be considered as a viable option. It widens the zone where you can punish your opponent, and (as mentioned in above posts) is guaranteed at certain percents out of fthrow (depending on character/rage/etc), which is very nice for racking up damage - our version of Sheik Dthrow fair to an extent heh. It's also guaranteed out of air releases; if you manage to grab someone at the ledge at mid high %s to force the air release (for short characters you don't need to be by the ledge of course) they are basically dead. Air release Crescent Slash kills Bowser at ~95% at the edge of BF without rage/DI.

Here's a quick summary of what I gathered for it compared to regular DS:

Pros
Increased punish range
Better kill potential
Damage racking with true fthrow/air release combos
Increased ledge poking distance

Crescent slashing can help against projectile use - the invincibility frames allow you to just go through projectiles if spaced and it's faster than PSing and then punishing after, from what I can tell at least.

Cons
Lose an OoS option (In general if you hit with the sourspot of Crescent Slash you will still get punished)
Decreased edge guarding potential (you can't chase your opponents as low)
Makes Marth more susceptible to footstools, spikes, and edge pummel releases followups.

Neutral/Situation dependent
Different recovery angle (recovering horizontally is better or worse depending on the MU)
Stage spikes are stronger due to increased power but stage spike area is reduced because of the angle

It definitely requires some getting used to/playstyle changes, which is why I wrote it off early on. But I encourage everyone to give it chance if they haven't tried it out yet. Final note: don't take it to Lylat unless you like not recovering.

 

[Piford]

Hey I was wondering why people prefer Shield Breaker to dashing Assault? It seems like in most situations I rather have dashing assault as an approach options. For the custom move sets, I think 1113 should be changed to 3113 and 1121 should be changed to 3121. Is there any reason that they aren't using dashing assault?

 

[Shaya]

Dashing Assault has like 20 extra frames of cool down.

 

[Piford]

Dashing Assault has like 20 extra frames of cool down.

Oh I didn't notice that. I think at least for me, that dashing assault is still much better. Maybe those two sets could fit if 2222 and 3333 were removed.

 

[Icare0]

Oh I didn't notice that. I think at least for me, that dashing assault is still much better. Maybe those two sets could fit if 2222 and 3333 were removed.

It is definitively userfull in some matchups, and gives you crazy good punish potential and recovery, but it is so unsafe that it isn't really viable most of the time, IMO. Against anyone that has good OoS options, using DA to approach is just asking to be smacked in the face.

 

[Raijinken]

For extremely hard and well-timed reads, Heavy Blade's last swing kills well. Almost worth taking it over the default since the default's so weak now.

I prefer Counter over Iai, but Iai has uses when recovering (like Mac's, for instance).

Dashing Assault's recovery value is great, and it's not like either form gets used much on the ground. Storm Thrust could be a situational edgeguard, but I wouldn't put much stock in it.

Still haven't decided which Up I prefer, but I'm leaning towards the default. Since the sword clips through edges, it still gives him a decently safe recovery.

 

[Galespark]

I'm just messing around with Marth's Cresent Slash and it is a true combo out of FThrow, and can kill Diddy Kong as soon as 60% near the edge even if he DIs away. At high percentages like 100% DI'ing makes it not being a true combo anymore but you can still get the KO if they don't airdodge in time or if you wait for it. Also you can combo FAir and BAir into it and get the KO as well. So a character like Marth that lacks reliable ways to kill outside reads this is a must have and I don't see a reason why you should use other UpBs instead of this one because, Kill Options>Recovery and we can see this with Diddy Kong having a poor vertical recovery option and still being the dominant character rn thanks to his reliable ways to kill.

So I would go with Shield Breaker (1), Dancing Blade (1), Cresent Slash (2), and Iai Counter (3)

 

[Quickhero]

Can confirm. I absolutely love Crescent Slash, it's amazing how much better Marth is once he has a grab to not just a true combo, but a true combo that can KILL. This meta is all about grabs or abusing projectiles since those are the ways you take control of the match, and by giving Marth a much better grab game, you make him a much better character. :D He was already mid tier, but I can see this jump him up to upper mid very easily.

He doesn't become easy to just become KO by making him never go back on stage when you do get out, either. Even if you don't include Dashing Assault, a simple jump even if you are below the stage will be enough to recover, and with (Counter and air dodging at your disposal, it's not like it is easy for the opponent to gimp you. Maybe that's just me playing Marth for so long that I'm getting incredibly used to preserving my stuff, though.

Dashing Assault is pretty good because mobility stuff and when used with Crescent Slash you will have to be REALLY below the stage if you're going to die, and in the match-ups I see that happening like Sheik then yeah put Dolphin Slash. Iai Counter seems pretty damn nice too for distancing but yeah super hyped for customs and I was wrong when I said Marth would have a harder time competing if customs were legal because man I love custom Marth. :3

 

[mega4000]

I'm just messing around with Marth's Cresent Slash and it is a true combo out of FThrow, and can kill Diddy Kong as soon as 60% near the edge even if he DIs away. At high percentages like 100% DI'ing makes it not being a true combo anymore but you can still get the KO if they don't airdodge in time or if you wait for it. Also you can combo FAir and BAir into it and get the KO as well. So a character like Marth that lacks reliable ways to kill outside reads this is a must have and I don't see a reason why you should use other UpBs instead of this one because, Kill Options>Recovery and we can see this with Diddy Kong having a poor vertical recovery option and still being the dominant character rn thanks to his reliable ways to kill.

So I would go with Shield Breaker (1), Dancing Blade (1), Cresent Slash (2), and Iai Counter (3)

can I ask why you people love using dancing blade? the heavy one can kill characters at 40% with the last hit, plus after 20% the first hit make the opponent trip and can be combo into the last one if they don't teach giving you an early kill. It's a good anti air too and if you time it right the last hit will always connect against and aearial opponent because it can be delayed. Imagine this with shield breaker combined, it's early kills all over the place. Cresent slash i don't know, with the dolphin slash you can fast fall spike and always comeback, and seriously shield breaker is better than dashing assault because it's really easy to break shields and gives you kill opportunitys with charged f smash and heavy dance blade. So why people go for the regular sword dance? it doesn't kill and even if you can combo into it, marth already has a lot of combos at his disposal and with the heavy version you can combo from trip and even jab lock and get an early kill.

For extremely hard and well-timed reads, Heavy Blade's last swing kills well. Almost worth taking it over the default since the default's so weak now.

I prefer Counter over Iai, but Iai has uses when recovering (like Mac's, for instance).

Dashing Assault's recovery value is great, and it's not like either form gets used much on the ground. Storm Thrust could be a situational edgeguard, but I wouldn't put much stock in it.

Still haven't decided which Up I prefer, but I'm leaning towards the default. Since the sword clips through edges, it still gives him a decently safe recovery.

combine heavy blade with shield breaker and you are set, plus after 20% i believe the first hit of heavy blade makes the opponent trip and you can either follow this with dash attack and another first hit heavy blade or going for the full heavy blade setup because the trip is already set to be hit by the tip of the sword of the last hit of heavy blade.

 

[Locuan]

Hey @ mega4000 welcome to the Marth Boards! Be wary with double posting since it's against the Smashboards Terms of Service and Rules. Next time, use the edit button when you need to add content to a previous post.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

My current thoughts on Marth/Lucina are pretty simple. The current sets are:

3111
1113
1133
1121
3133
3131

I'm thinking of finishing the iterations of neutral-3, up-3, and down-3 that aren't included (3113, 1131) since the choice between these seems to be personal preference, adding in 3121 which is a popular and logical request, and then using the 10th and final slot for whatever the best Heavy Blade build is since of all the non-represented custom moves that would seem to be the most viable. That only raises the question of whether excluding neutral-2 completely is indeed wise.

If you guys have any thoughts on whether this is wise thinking, definitely let us know.

 

[Locuan]

As with the case for Lucina, 3121 is a great choice to add in my opinion. Keeping in sets for neutral 2 could be done if it doesn't overlap with other potential sets. You never know who might be interested in using neutral 2.

 

[Piford]

My current thoughts on Marth/Lucina are pretty simple. The current sets are:

3111
1113
1133
1121
3133
3131

I'm thinking of finishing the iterations of neutral-3, up-3, and down-3 that aren't included (3113, 1131) since the choice between these seems to be personal preference, adding in 3121 which is a popular and logical request, and then using the 10th and final slot for whatever the best Heavy Blade build is since of all the non-represented custom moves that would seem to be the most viable. That only raises the question of whether excluding neutral-2 completely is indeed wise.

If you guys have any thoughts on whether this is wise thinking, definitely let us know.

From what I can tell having 2111 is preferable over 1311 since Heavy blade has trouble linking.

 

[Wilyen]

you forgot 3113

 

[Emblem Lord]

Heavy Blade is ass can we stop talking about it?

 

[mega4000]

Heavy Blade is *** can we stop talking about it?

so **** that it allows jab lock after 20% with the first hit and it sets the forth hit with the tip that kills on 40%. Also, with shield breaker you can set a kill with heavy blade every time, is a good anti air too specially for reading dodges.
This is the config I use:
Shield Breaker: Easy shield breaker that allows early kills.
Heavy Blade: Combined with shield breaker, allows for early kills and jab lock with the first hit.
Moon Slash: allows runing from the edge and perform fast fall meteor and better recovery.
Iai Counter: Best counter ever.

 

[Emblem Lord]

How will you EVER get that hit consistently?

How do you kill consistently with it?

And good luck breaking a competent opponents shield.

Shieldbreaker's best use is the threat of breaking a shield. not breaking a shield in of itself.

Heavy Blade takes alot of conditioning and alot of reading. In which case you could have went for a tipper f-smash no?

 

[mega4000]

How will you EVER get that hit consistently?

How do you kill consistently with it?

And good luck breaking a competent opponents shield.

Shieldbreaker's best use is the threat of breaking a shield. not breaking a shield in of itself.

Heavy Blade takes alot of conditioning and alot of reading. In which case you could have went for a tipper f-smash no?

tipper smash is harder to position. Heavy blade combos into itself if you use it after 20% and your opponent don't tech or roll foward. It gives you a ver early kill, plus you can jab lock with the first hit just after an air dodge

 

[Emblem Lord]

Again. The move is slow. About twice as slow as Dancing Blade. I'm not saying it will never work. But I feel it will work due to novelty not because it's his best option.

And now you are saying it combos as long as they dont use certain options.

That's..not how combos work. It's either a combo or it isn't. Seems like its just a set-up.

 

[Quickhero]

tipper smash is harder to position. Heavy blade combos into itself if you use it after 20% and your opponent don't tech or roll foward. It gives you a very early kill, plus you can jab lock with the first hit just after an air dodge

Can you please tell me to whom does this jab lock against? I've been trying to get it to work against a Yoshi amiibo with tendencies to air dodge and I cannot get this to work at all, maybe I'm just doing it wrong and if so please enlighten me. That being said, even if it was the case I still really wouldn't use Heavy Blade because it really is just WAY TOO EASY to dodge and the lag on it is too easy to punish. Shieldbreaker is much better than Heavy Blade and just use DB as a niche mix-up tool or a VERY EARLY combo tool if you can get a short hop u-air early on. Shieldbreaker is just much more powerful and threatening for the exact same reasons @ Emblem Lord has stated.

If we have to decide between Storm Assault and Heavy Blade for the last slot, think 2111 should be put on the last slot imo. Storm Assault might not be that good and super niche, but imagining it as some CP thing against someone that REALLY gets hampered by windboxes like Diddy (it at least weakens him if you can force him to have to use his Up-B to recover), WFT, or Luigi that either have incredibly horizontal means for recovering and/or EXTREMELY vulnerable when recovering vertically. (i.e. Luigi's Up-B) Super cheesy? Yes. Super gimmicky? Most likely. Ridiculously fun? Sounds like it!

 

[mega4000]

How will you EVER get that hit consistently?

How do you kill consistently with it?

And good luck breaking a competent opponents shield.

Shieldbreaker's best use is the threat of breaking a shield. not breaking a shield in of itself.

Heavy Blade takes alot of conditioning and alot of reading. In which case you could have went for a tipper f-smash no?

tipper smash is harder to position. Heavy blade combos into itself if you use it after 20% and if your opponent don't tech or roll foward, it gives you a ver early kill, plus you can jab lock with the first hit just after an air

Can you please tell me to whom does this jab lock against? I've been trying to get it to work against a Yoshi amiibo with tendencies to air dodge and I cannot get this to work at all, maybe I'm just doing it wrong and if so please enlighten me. That being said, even if it was the case I still really wouldn't use Heavy Blade because it really is just WAY TOO EASY to dodge and the lag on it is too easy to punish. Shieldbreaker is much better than Heavy Blade and just use DB as a niche mix-up tool or a VERY EARLY combo tool if you can get a short hop u-air early on. Shieldbreaker is just much more powerful and threatening for the exact same reasons @ Emblem Lord has stated.

If we have to decide between Storm Assault and Heavy Blade for the last slot, think 2111 should be put on the last slot imo. Storm Assault might not be that good and super niche, but imagining it as some CP thing against someone that REALLY gets hampered by windboxes like Diddy (it at least weakens him if you can force him to have to use his Up-B to recover), WFT, or Luigi that either have incredibly horizontal means for recovering and/or EXTREMELY vulnerable when recovering vertically. (i.e. Luigi's Up-B) Super cheesy? Yes. Super gimmicky? Most likely. Ridiculously fun? Sounds like it!

Go to training and try it against diddy. An amiibo has more stats than a regular fighter. I will put the % where it jab locks yoshi and others:
First hit trips Yoshi at 17%, Last hit kills at 35% in the position where training starts and at 50% from the middle of the screen.
Well, those were my two cents, I still think you should consider using more custom moves, because if you remain most of your moves as 1111 this character won't stand a chance against top tiers who are changing his moves. Marth should kill as fast as he can. Sadly I coudnt make the kill combo with crecent slash because the opponent can DI at the killing percent.

 

[Emblem Lord]

In a custom environment I would never go default.

Also more testing is needed for Crescent Slash.

And until Heavy Blade can be shown to have consistent set-ups I will not put much faith into it. It requires a read. that alone limits it.

 

[mega4000]

In a custom environment I would never go default.

Also more testing is needed for Crescent Slash.

And until Heavy Blade can be shown to have consistent set-ups I will not put much faith into it. It requires a read. that alone limits it.

Don't take it as a challenge, I was just triying to help because I really like marth even if he isn't my main. I hope you people can make a good set for him that allows him to go against the top tiers and every single character in the game. Btw, what's your recomended set and why?

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's not a challenge. I did not take it as such.

My original set-up was

Dashing Assault
Dancing Blade
Iai Counter
Dolphin Jump

Basically my goal was to become hyper focused on stage carry/control and stronger edgeguarding.

DA gave me more options in trap scenarios. I could cover air dodge landings and failed techs and push people towards the ledge.

DB is solid punish. Not great. Decent move and I felt the others were worse for his overall gameplan.

Iai Counter is simply the best counter. Even if you don't him them it moves you out of danger which is great for multi hit attacks.

Dolphin Jump has tons of invincibility at the start. Hard to edgeguard when he's rising. But mainly it lets him go SUPER deep to harass people opponents off stage and seal stocks. Great for characters with multiple jumps as I feel DJ levels the playing feel a bit it lets him pressure offstage more freely and without fear of dying. Especially with DA in the air giving him alot of horizontal movement.