Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Marth

[Shaya]

Shieldbreaker can be a poke safer on shield than all of our aerials and can kill towards edges of the stage at 90%.
For the purpose of shield breaking it requires the shield read [so after some sort of action you see them take] and you take a timing usually around charge two, if someone is cornered, the move covers forward rolls, spot dodges, etc in a non-reactable way (release is 8 frames). A second charge likely won't be punished on shield either and breaks shields for everything but a full (or perfect shield).
Doesn't work at top 8 is hmm... it works fine against top SoCal players. It's a game changer you only need the first condition to put into your control (although it does require a second 'read').

why dont you..ya know..test it in tourney yourself?

I don't own a WiiU to practice myself, been ill for attending tournaments, and I'm a visual learner. Videos of others using it successfully (+ adaptions of the opponent to it) will be very telling and helpful for me.
If I'm not too confident in it, then I doubt my perspective will transition that easily considering.

 

[LoreLes]

Btw Shaya do you live here in Vegas or SoCal? You were in the locals last month I believe.

 

[Shaya]

I live in Australia, lol.
I'm back home now

That was my last US tournament~ I'll probably be back someday.

 

[LoreLes]

Ahh well hope to see you soon.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Shieldbreaker doesn't do it's job well enough to warrant using it over DA imo which gives the results I want for my specific gameplan.

As far as CS is concerned, at lower percents DI doesn't matter, so for me that is reason enough. Hit confirms are simply too valuable at this stage in the meta and being able to force an opponent right to the ledge off a single grab is huge especially when you put trump traps into the equation.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
Marth:

1/3, 1, 1/3, 1/3 niche: XX2X

1113, 1131, 1133, 3111, 3113, 3131, 3133
niche: 3121, 3123, 1123

I see Crescent Slash getting more and more love every day. Is it ready to leave niche territory and join the big boys as a top line set (perhaps bump down Dolphin Jump sets to niche, not that it will affect what things you can actually pick in tournament)? Likewise, if Crescent Slash has reached that point, do we want 1121 over 1131? Of course, any other concerns are welcome as well.

 

[Piford]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
Marth:

1/3, 1, 1/3, 1/3 niche: XX2X

1113, 1131, 1133, 3111, 3113, 3131, 3133
niche: 3121, 3123, 1123

I see Crescent Slash getting more and more love every day. Is it ready to leave niche territory and join the big boys as a top line set (perhaps bump down Dolphin Jump sets to niche, not that it will affect what things you can actually pick in tournament)? Likewise, if Crescent Slash has reached that point, do we want 1121 over 1131? Of course, any other concerns are welcome as well.

I feel like 3123 and 1123 aren't going to be niche sets, and that 1131 and 3131 are. Basically I see most players using Iai counter over default.

 

[Quickhero]

I find 1131 to be the most optimal set against Villager, since Lloid and Timber Counter makes it really hard to set-up anything with Dashing Assault and if you can condition Vilager to shield Shieldbreaker can let you take a stock with is just for the match-up. I don't like how Iai Counter lets you get hit by Villager's U-Smash and once it made me SD because I ended up Dolphin Jumping under Smashville in order to avoid a bowling ball. xD

I have yet to find a use for 3131, though.

EDIT: Oh derp I thought we were removing 1131, yeah it's only for one match-up so I put it at the bottom but I would have problems if it was getting removed haha.

 

[Wilyen]

i think storm thrust should be discussed more. as we seen with DK wind boxes are no joke in this game. so would storm thrust work well with any set, or is ST not viable at all.

 

[LoreLes]

Difference is DK can save his punch for some amazing gimping. Marth can't get that affect at all unless he full charges the storm thrust, it's mediocre at best.

I really want 3123 out of niche. If anything just give me 3X3X somewhere.

 

[Emblem Lord]

i think storm thrust should be discussed more. as we seen with DK wind boxes are no joke in this game. so would storm thrust work well with any set, or is ST not viable at all.

Key factor is that DK can hold a charge.

 

[Foodies]

I see Crescent Slash getting more and more love every day. Is it ready to leave niche territory and join the big boys as a top line set (perhaps bump down Dolphin Jump sets to niche, not that it will affect what things you can actually pick in tournament)? Likewise, if Crescent Slash has reached that point, do we want 1121 over 1131? Of course, any other concerns are welcome as well.

I vote yes, but only because I never use Dolphin Jump lol. Also I'd say have both CS and DJ as options over default counter and Iai counter; I see more people being upset that they don't have either CS or DJ vs default or Iai counter, especially since they should be using upB more than downB.

 

[Quickhero]

So, I'm just wondering, does anyone object the order I listed the custom sets? I really don't see much objection and I think if we just order the way now (3123 is the first set, btw) then I think it would save a lot of time. Plus I want to pretend I have done something useful.

 

[Umby]

Alright, didn't get too far in my tournament yesterday, but this is how I feel about Crescent Slash (aside from needing to get used to the angle of recovery with it) after friendlies.

- Adds an option to your air trap game if the opponent drifts too far away to setup Uair.
- Gimmicky ground-to-air option for knocking the opponent off-stage (think Dolphin Slash OOS, except at a distance). Potentially a shut down for something like Pikachu's SH Thunder Jolt?
- Piggybacking off of EL's earlier post, you trade off-stage edgeguarding and have to situate yourself into edge traps/trumps. I'd also like to offer the possibility of CS as an edgeguarding option for high recoveries. Using either Smashville off-stage platform or the small amount of movement you can use during CS's free fall, you can catch opponents off guard with this move and still make it back to the stage.

Didn't have any personal success with Dashing Assault. I'm not fully understanding how to go about using this move.

 

[Foodies]

So, I'm just wondering, does anyone object the order I listed the custom sets? I really don't see much objection and I think if we just order the way now (3123 is the first set, btw) then I think it would save a lot of time. Plus I want to pretend I have done something useful.

No objections from me. 3123 is the one I start off with when using customs (assuming I don't know what character my opponent will play).

Didn't have any personal success with Dashing Assault. I'm not fully understanding how to go about using this move.

Dashing Assault is mostly used for catching landings and people rolling away. It has limited use in neutral, especially so if your opponent has a projectile.

 

[Shaya]

Crescent Slash?
More like Crescent Trash.

A reminder that Dashing Assault gets a blanket +1 extra damage if you start it in the air (no other differences I'm aware of). I would say you'd generally not want to use the grounded version.

Seems all up-bs have a niche, which kinda sucks. I think for the sake of player preference, there'll be some who'd prefer to keep default counter too, although discounting the default/easy counters should allow us to cover most people's preferences.

 

[Foodies]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5p01A2fdhU&feature=youtu.be

Here's a customs match I had with my friend yesterday (we were both using CS). I think it shows some of the reasons (not all) that you both would and wouldn't want to use CS heh.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Foodies As well as you played, you getting stage spiked on that first match after your CS seemed like it killed was maximum lel.

It's really interesting to see how Crescent Slash can allow you to land on the platform in Town and City (it also does in Smashville) and it's nice to see how you can use that to transition to further stage control. I can see these be utilized to great extents to the very good Marth players. :3

I also find it cool how at early percents Dashing Assault can combo to tippered u-tilt on Battlefield thanks to the sliding mechanics.
We should all definitely hit the lab and see if there are any new combos that can be pulled off with Dashing Assault + perfect pivot / foxtrot and any other mobility tool there is. Hopefully I'll be able to experiment after I take the SATs Saturday, >.< but I can definitely see Marth greatly improve as a character over the next few months.

 

[Galespark]

Cresent Slash sets absolutely should be out of niche. I would say 1123 and 3123 are very good for Marth's viability (Idk if others prefer Iai Couter over his regular though)

 

[Xisin]

I think its mu based to be perfectly honest. For example, mario I would use dolphin slash or jump, mainly because gimping mario is pretty core to the mu. People like say yoshi? I'd do crescent, villager? crescent or dolphin jump R.O.B use standard, it's too good vs him. duck hunt, DJ or DS... you get the point. I still think crescent is more appealing in most match ups however.

Also I see shaya's point with shieldbreaker. I've been using it as a standard short hop version and getting decent results. Honestly, all of his moves except dancing blades (DB is set but god I WANT to use heavy blades the range on db4 red is insanity) are match up based. Easy counter I think is trash, standard counter will be better than iai counter in some match ups. (Iai counter outright whiffs on certain moves.)

On dolphin jump: I havent actually played with it much but I can't really seem to get it to ledge snap on a consistent basis. Am I bad with it or is this normal?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think Storm Thrust and Dolphin Jump could work. But your entire strategy would be get them off the ledge at all cost, then run off the stage and just keep mashing fair/bair and then up b when you think you are going to die. If they are very far out then instead you run off and press B, then double jump fair if they are still close and then up b back to stage.

I am simplifying of course, but honestly that set is pure edgeguarding potential.

I only like regular counter for edgeguarding so my timing doesn't need to be so exact. But on stage in neutral vs projectile users, Iai Counter is beyond godlike.

 

[Quickhero]

Okay, editing the custom set list a little bit, I hope I have finalized the list properly. If there is anything wrong you notice please tell me, but I believe adding 2133 over 2113 and putting it in the middle would be beneficial because we have seen that Storm Thrust has a niche in getting f-smash positions and I can very well see that being less niche than the remaining sets. I kept 1131 because I personally have found success with it versus Villager more than any other set, and the 31x1 sets are in the bottom because I mean maybe someone will prefer the slightly longer frames counter possesses.

Spoiler

3123
3133
3113
1133
2133
1123
1131
1113
3131
3121

 

[RisingVexx]

Why are you guys even considering dolphin jump?. You lose so much if you don't have your quick oos options. In a metagame where you have quick characters all over your face you rly should rly have that "get off my face" option.

As for Neutral B, Dashing assault and Shieldbreaker offer different options, so we must have sets with both of them.
As for the tornado one, it is very very situational. I would only have a 2111 set just to have all the neutral B's

Regular Dancing Blade is superior to the other ones. No question on that.

Dolphin slash is a strong vertical recovery and a really good oos option.
Crescent slash is a strong combo tool and finisher, a good horizontal recovery and a regular oos option (a little better in stages with platforms that you can land after it)

Dolphin jump: good vertical recover and that's it. You get even more vulnerable without a hitbox on the way up.
I don't think you should use this over the other ones, ever.

As for counter
Regular is good and strong while edgeguarding while Iai is good while being edgeguarded, so its rly player preference.


I thinks the sets should be:
Crucial:
1121
1123
1113
3111
3113
3121
3123 (best one imo)
--------------------------------------
Extras:
2111
2121-1131
2123-3131

I really think you guys need to see the potential on crescent slash and how bad is losing your quick oos options with dolphin jump.

 

[Quickhero]

@ RisingVexx We need to see the potential on Crescent Slash? We've been exploring that, and while it is extremely beneficial, Dolphin Jump is incredibly useful for times when you are in stages like Lylat Cruise where Crescent Slash becomes too horizontal to recover consistently, you have the desire to go DEEP and thus improve your edge-guarding play, or you are against someone like Villager who can punish greatly from a horizontal distance and having the invincibility frames to avoid things like a bowling ball while you jump up is incredibly useful.

It's far more useful than you give it credit for. Also, for Iai Counter it provides more horizontal distance, more damage, and sends the opponent the opposite direction making it generally much better. Counter is only useful when you need to stand still to Counter things like Villager's u-smash or something like Captain Falcon's dash attack. (which isn't something you should be countering anyways)

 

[RisingVexx]

@ Quickhero You can still go deep with regular dolphin and still have your quick oos option, which does 11%. You don't need to go THAT deep. With dolphin slash and crescent slash we are offering 2 different playstyles. Losing your quick oos option is 2 much of a big deal to be ignored.

With dolphing jump you get more distance yes, but you get way more vulnerable, any enemy will intercept your recovery with a simple back air or anything, with no risk of getting stage spike'd .

As for counter, it is really player preference, some players tend to be on the edge's a lot, so they might prefer Iai to get out of it, while others tend to be on edgeguarding side more often, so they might prefer the regular counter.

With 3121, you can force them off stage at medium percents, get back and cover the ledge, where you can use regular counter to cover get up attacks or quick fairs.

With a quick dolphin slash oos you can get them on the same situation or go for an edguard instead of covering the ledge.


I really don't see any reason to pick dolphin jump over any of the other 2.

 

[Emblem Lord]

http://smashboards.com/threads/grab-release-mega-thread-spoilers-almost-zero-combos.373720/

This is super duper relevant.

 

[Foodies]

I agree with @ RisingVexx about dolphin jump. A lot of characters get harder to edgeguard with customs on and I don't see the ~33% increase in height adding enough to Marth's edgeguarding ability to offset losing the Oos option and letting your opponent edgeguard you without fear.

@ Quickhero Standing still to counter has nothing to do with the difference between Iai and normal counter :v I would say Iai counter is overall better, but there are a few cases where you might want to consider taking regular. For example, against regular DK's upB sending them away from the stage is more useful (not that DK would run regular upB in a customs environment, but you get the picture).

Yay air release CS. It seems to work 100% at the edge of the stage if you don't pummel (as some of you might've experienced against me heh), but on some characters it doesn't sweetspot. I need to compile a list of that eventually.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Messing with CS more and more. Gives legit combos after 100% with SH fair into CS. Non-tipper fair I'm talking. Good if you SH fair them off the ledge. Then just CS before you touch the ground while DIing forward to maintain proper spacing.

This works at lower percents with SH tipper fair and bair. Makes juggle traps more rewarding as well.

D-throw, tipper bair to CS is a true combo around starting around 30% to 40%. Varies depending on who you are fighting.

So many options for hit confirms. But it is NOT brain dead. You really need to be able to react quickly and move in the air correctly to get the CS to hit after the aerial.

SH Uair to full jump Fair/Bair into CS works are various percents as well. Good for Marth because at lower percents he can go for a tipper f-smash after SH uair then higher percents he can go for a combo ending into CS.

Options people.

I will test on CF later and compile a list on what works vs him as a starting point.

 

[Foodies]

Characters that you can only get 7% on out of air release CS (tested by just grabbing them by the ledge and inputting CS when the air release happens) :


So don't bother using it against these characters, just take the fthrow if you grab them off of the ledge.

In retrospect I should have also tested/differentiated which characters get hit by very strong hit, but the fact is it's worth doing regardless as long as you are hitting 12%, unless you/your opponents are at %s where you can get the kill off of fthrow CS. I hope that sentence made sense lol.

 

[Quickhero]

Oh yeah, just so you guys don't worry, I've already submitted the EVO sets a week ago lol. RIght now it doesn't have 2133 because nobody really commented on that but everyone approved at the first set so yeah.

 

[Linq]

Marth is one of my secondaries, and just want to throw my vote in for Crescent Slash being put in some main sets. Just having the move forces the opponent to either recover extremely low or try to read the move (which if misread can easily result in a KO). Further, if your opponent doesn't react right out of an f-throw, even without rage Crescent Slash can kill as low as 35% (when grabbed) off the side blast zones.

 

[Quickhero]

Do any of you folks want 3131/1131 replaced with 1121? I see Crescent Slash as actually working better than Dolphin Jump because of the air grab release combo, as well as being able to sweet-spot if a Villager tries to SH B-air if positioned well (usually it's if the Villager is using it as an option a lot post-ledge grab. I find default everything else to be better vs Villager for the most part, and SOME people actually like 1121 as their comfort set, so there's that.

If you want my opinion, I personally would like it since I find it to be the most optimal vs Villager and I know that if I ever make it past round 1 (I'm likely to get demolished, but I'm most likely going to compete at EVO) I will most likely face a Villager, so I would want all the advantages I can have. I don't see any use for 1131 anymore but hey feel free to disagree, either way I need a lot more practice and skill haha.

By the way, I'm not trying to act like a spokesperson for the Marth boards, and I apologize if I sound like I am. I just really want to do something beneficial for Marth players like this so I just want to be the person that presents the custom moves and stuff.

 

[Foodies]

Yes. Crescent slash > Dolphin Jump.

But honestly I'm not going to EVO and the sets that I mostly use are already on the list so it doesn't really matter to me.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Crescent Slash is not niche. Caught Nairo with it and he knew how to DI it because he lived even at kill percents.

Marth CAN chase their DI with different actions and still connect but dammit you better be fast and have great reaction time.

I think the standard set should be 3121. I'm a fan of Iai counter, but it shines vs projectile characters. Regular counter is gold in edge guarding situations vs chars with hitting up b's.

In KTAR XII I beat two default Captain Falcon (including my best friend, but I feel no remorse because CF is literally run around and try to grab at high level), custom Greninja, custom Robin and custom Ike. Lost to default ZSS and default Diddy.

I feel now more then ever that CS creates a ton of new and dangerous trap situations. Battlefield is a death zone when Marth has this. Miss a tech or call a tech in place and this will make the enemy feel pain. Forward throw at higher percents and CS isnt true thats fine. Dash up and bait that air dodge then let it rip, same as Sheik and bouncing fish. Anytime they recovery high they are in a 50/50. Airdodge or nah? Even if you whiff, go for the ledge and more then likely you are safe from retaliation as they are in dodge frames, then you just go for the ledge. You might even get a ledge trump if they grabbed it before you.

Top tiers are top tiers. Nothing to do but grind those matches out vs very high level players.

 

[Quickhero]

I have yet to face a Villager that goes full ADHD camp. What is the best Up-B to beat those kind of Villagers? I love CS because it's an especially good punishment vs Villager, but apparently it's not the greatest vs a full ledge camp mode Villager.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I would go dolphin jump. Just run off and take the fight to him and now you don't have to worry about your recovery.

 

[Quickhero]

I would go dolphin jump. Just run off and take the fight to him and now you don't have to worry about your recovery.

Ah okay, that's nice to hear. I'm also wondering though, would Iai Counter/normal Counter have a specific niche against these kind of villagers? I wonder if you can abuse a mistake in positioning from the EBT's and get a legit punish from it. I could see that work with Iai Counter and it would be very interesting if it actually does provide Marth with a good advantage in this match-up. (I can't really try this out against anyone because I haven't been able to find a super campy Villager, but still)

 

[CowlScatman]

I dont know if this has been brought up before but why is there no sets for evo using marths side 3? I think its pretty good and even extends marths range alot more.

http://imgur.com/z2CjaWf


Edit: ignore this Quickhero answered me in another thread.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Heavy Blade is ass.

That's why.

 

[Xisin]

So dolphin jump, I guess it is something I have to try. How does it fare vs villagers bowling ball? It just goes straight up doesn't it? What little I played with it I couldn't sweet spot the ledge with it reliably, admittedly I've put less than an hour into it. never mind i sucked with it... seems fine now

Also my rob buddy sparring partner poops on me for using dash assault, so I don't use it. It's probably a match up based thing though. set I use mainly is 1121 or 1123. I swap counters based on the mu, standard vs ness iai vs villager etc.