Official Stage Legality Discussion

[Bacon Man11]

Counterpicks are supposed to give advantages. Rainbow Cruise is a perfect fit for a counterpick.

 

[Mr.Lombardi34]

Mushroomy Kingdom: It doesn't really scroll fast, but it is your standard "scrolling level" and it kinda takes away the focus of hurting your oponent. Plus, as someone said somewhere, light characters are K.Oed very easily here.

Rumble Falls: It scrolls up, giving bad jumpers a disadvantage. That would say counterpick, but it's like mushroomy Kingdom, it still takes away the game's focus too much at times. Another big thing is THE SPIKE! No, it doesn't technically move, but the stage does, and that makes it just as if the spike moves. It also sometimes blends into the backround, and if you're trying to fight and jump and all, it can be hard to notice - And it's an instant kill.

Rainbow Cruise: No hazards at all. The scroll is very slow, part of it is a normal stage, and it is rather easy to fight while it scrolls. Really, it is a perfect counterpick.

 

[ZenJestr]

Rumble Falls doesnt move that fast...and when it does it warns you for like 7 seconds...and since it favors good jumpers then it should definately be a counterpick...besides the stage is littered with platforms...

 

[Mr.Lombardi34]

^^I thought of that too, but that's not the main problem. The thing is, you really aren't focusing on the battle much when you're there. You can't stand in one place for more than a few seconds, and so the whole brawl will be very choppy. "Jump, jump, airdodge him, ooh, let's exchange some attacks...Quick, jump! Jump, jump, jump ect." That's how brawls work there.

 

[Thinkaman]

Random interjection:

I think that given a larger number of legal stages in Brawl, players should be allowed to ban one neutral stage and one counter-pick stage. This would dramatically increase the thresholds of bias permitted in random stages.

Screw it, I'm making a thread devoted to this.

 

[AlexX]

The fact that it's camper unfriendly is simply me offering a reason why someone might want to choose that course as a counterpick.

If it's so camper unfriendly, why does my friend seem to be able to do it just fine with Samus's charge shot and missiles?

He just knocks down the statue and runs off to do the same for the other side if I happen to get too close...

 

[ZenJestr]

Originally Posted by Mr.Lombardi34
^^I thought of that too, but that's not the main problem. The thing is, you really aren't focusing on the battle much when you're there. You can't stand in one place for more than a few seconds, and so the whole brawl will be very choppy. "Jump, jump, airdodge him, ooh, let's exchange some attacks...Quick, jump! Jump, jump, jump ect." That's how brawls work there.

so it favors aerial combat.......boom...counterpick...

 

[Eten]

If it's so camper unfriendly, why does my friend seem to be able to do it just fine with Samus's charge shot and missiles?

He just knocks down the statue and runs off to do the same for the other side if I happen to get too close...

Well honestly the only answer I could possibly come up for that is that he's > you. I'm not sure why you're asking the question.

 

[Patinator]

My stage legality thoughts. I haven’t really read that much in this thread prior to posting.


[Also, Mic_128, you can close my stage legality thread if no one has yet. This will be fine.]


75 m

Banned. This stage has three walk-off edges, multiple hazards, and has a very cramped feel to it. There isn’t a single place that is long enough and safe enough to fight on.


Battlefield

Neutral. This is THE fairest stage you could ever see in a Smash game.


Bridge of Eldin

Banned. Dedede can chain grab across this stage, yes? Plus, King Bulblin… And the rare chance of getting stuck under the stage… And the fact it’s HUGE… Yeah.


Delfino Plaza

Neutral. This is BORDERLINE Neutral. There are several walk-off edges, and if they aren’t walk off, they’re swim-off. …Not that that really matters. You’ll mainly be fighting on the moving platform, anyway.


Distant Planet

Banned. It has a walk-off edge, the rain can mean death if your opponent grabs the ledge and you’re playing, say, Olimar or Zero Suit Samus. Plus, you could die by getting hit into the weird monster’s mouth INSTANTLY…


Final Destination

Neutral. Sure, the edges are problematic, but any genius can work around that. I mean, SOME characters can get gimped kinda bad, but come on. It’s Final Destination.


Flat Zone 2

Banned. This stage is small, has walk-off edges, and many hazards. Need I say more?


Frigate Orpheon

Counter-Pick. You can get killed by being in the wrong spot at the wrong time. Unfair, no? But that doesn’t quite warrant a ban, since it is quite a rare occurrence. Even ignoring this, it would be borderline neutral, since some of the platforms move around a LOT. You could grab a ledge when a platform begins to move and get killed by it, I think. Otherwise, though, a fair stage.


Green Hill Zone

Banned. Walk-off edges, the stage hazards (Though, they are easily avoidable….), and the fact the stage breaks whether you attack it or not… Scenario: You as a character with a Stall-then-Fall aerial attack. You use it, but during the stall part, the stage breaks. You die. And lose. Yeah, it’d be a rare occurrence, but still.


Halberd

I’m hard-pressed to call this Counter-Pick. The stage hazards are avoidable, and everything else is rather fair. However, it’s easy to get killed when the platform first leaves the hangar. By easy, I mean… If you stand there on the ground- Say, trapped by a Pit’s arrow spamming, or even Wolf or Snake, etc.- YOU DIE. That’s it. Pretty much the same when it leaves the Halberd, meaning you die if you have to recover at the wrong time. A rather debatable stage, mind you.


Hanenbow

Banned. Not just because I hate this stage, but because it isn’t a very fair one. The leaves can interrupt projectiles, AND they move, making certain physical attacks more/less useful. Plus, there isn’t really a place to fight.


Luigi’s Mansion

Neutral. Borderline neutral/counter-pick. The non-pass-through ceilings can create a mini-Cave of Life, but it’s very small. Besides, WHO THE HECK CAN TECH OFF OF A CEILING FIVE INCHES ABOVE THEM? Think about that before making it counter-pick on your list. I understand bouncing around, but the distance is just too small to really keep you in there. It’s a fine stage, methinks.


Lylat Cruise

Neutral. A very basic stage. The tilting, well, how does that really affect anything?


Mario Bros.

Banned. Sakurai even said it “…throws all basic rules of Smash fighting out the window!”, so yeah. MANY HAZARDS, possibly like seven onscreen at once, cramped space, it’s a cave of life, AND walk-off edges. Jeez.


Mario Circuit

Counter-Pick/Banned. Not quite sure. The cars can kill rather easily, and it has walk-off edges. That pretty much makes it an easy-to-ban stage. But still, it has a rather fair platform setup, and you can see the cars coming thanks to the map. Still, an up throw into them can murder you…


Mushroomy Kingdom

Counter-Pick. Sure, it scrolls, but it’s REALLY slow. The blocks might get in your way a little, but only if you don’t know how to jump over them. Now, this is just for 1-1. If 1-2 loads, cancel the match. One trick that I think works is this: turn all music for Underground all the way down, except for one, putting it at the lowest possible frequency. I think that the stage that plays is determined by the music that plays.


New Pork City

Banned. Gimme a break. This thing is HUGE, you might now be able to see your character, and then there’s the Ultimate Chimera…


Norfair

Banned. This stage has FOUR hazards: the background fire spray, the lava wave, the lava wall, and the rising lava. I understand the wave can be avoided moderately easily, but still.


Pictochat

Banned. This stage is normal for about ten, fifteen, twenty seconds. Then things go nuts. Missiles flying in your face, a huge guy breathing on you, three-dimensional blocks that trap you… MUST I GO ON? They don’t even come in a predictable order.


Pirate Ship

Banned. The stage has three hazards: the pirate cannon thing blasting you with bombs, the catapult, and the ship itself. That is WAY too nutty for a tournament scene. Plus, you have the decrease in falling speed and increase in jump speed when the ship flies up in the air. AND, the ship gets grounded by that rock. Sure, you know when it’s about to happen, but it isn’t an avoidable thing. Anyway, as for the replies I can foresee pertaining to the bombs and catapult: Not everyone has the time to watch the background. And what happens if you get hit into the catapult?

That’s what I thought. Now, as for the ship: it’s instant death if you get hit by the front. characters will long tether recoveries, like Zero Suit Samus and Ivysaur, land in the water unless you click A in six hundredths of a second or whatever.


Pokemon Stadium 2

Counter-Pick/Neutral. I’m not sure on this one either. The transformations can get rather zany, but not enough to ban it. Especially considering it’s good old Pokemon Stadium most of the time.


Port Town Aero Drive

Banned. Okay, remember Mute City? Go play on that, with like a 1.3-1.5 damage ratio, and you get how powerful the cars are. Just barely makes it into the ban section of my list. Plus, you can’t see when they’re coming most of the time.


Rumble Falls

Banned. Again, play on a Melee stage, Icicle Mountain, but on Slow-Mo Melee. Just imagine your characters as normal, with random intervals of quick scrolling.

But at the same time, add in stage hazards and moving platforms. Spikes that can kill at about 0%.


Shadow Moses Island

Banned. Dedede can chain grab you to death here. I’m not sure, but I think the walls break from Dedede throwing you (Though by then, you might’ve lost a stock already.), but then you have walk-off edges. Hmm. Lose-lose situation.


Skyworld

Banned. With the solid terrain, it’s a Cave of Life, and a bit invitation for stage spiking. When the platforms are broken, you can spike through them, right? Even so, no ledges.


Smashville

Neutral. Final Destination, but smaller, and with a moving platform. Not bad.


Spear Pillar

Banned. This stage has the most hazards of any stage in Smash history, I think. Just for when Dialga pops up, you have his beam, him jumping out and shocking you, tilting the stage, breaking the stage, and slowing time. FIVE. For Palkia, I think there’s more, and less or equal for Cresselia. Regardless, all those hazards make for a ban. Especially since the bottom half is a Cave of Life. Quite a pity, too…


Summit

Banned. You start with one hazard, the icicle. Then, during the slide, you have increased jumping and slowed falling speed. And at the bottom, if you even attempt to recover with swimming, you die from that stupid fish. A no-go.


WarioWare, Inc.

Banned. The main stage is fair, but it’s the micro games that make it bad. Especially noting the rewards: free Invincibility, free Super Mushroom, free Poison Mushroom… Hmm. Or even if you complete a micro game, your opponent may become invincible, and you giant or nothing.


Yoshi’s Island

Neutral. Quite a fair stage. The Support Ghost doesn’t really matter, does it?


Melee Stages

For now, I’d like to keep them the same. Nothing seems different; just different reasons for banning in some cases, For example, you can still get unfair KOs on Yoshi’s Island, without Wave- or Drill-Shining. Dedede’s chain grab, along with other things…


Anyone care to agree/disagree/discuss on anything?

 

[AlexX]

Anyone care to agree/disagree/discuss on anything?

Wouldn't mind a bit of each, actually.

Bridge of Eldin

Banned. Dedede can chain grab across this stage, yes? Plus, King Bulblin… And the rare chance of getting stuck under the stage… And the fact it’s HUGE… Yeah.

I personally think it's more of a CP stage. King Bulbin barely has any knockback on him, gives a loud horn before his arrival, and the bomb shouldn't be too hard to dodge since it has a few seconds before going off. It's a fairly large stage, but unlike NPC and the Temple, there's no real "circle" to take advantage of. Getting stuck under the stage... Never heard of that one before, and never seen it happen, but if you're below the bridge when it reforms (which you have warning of in the form of the twilight portal thingie... and if you're on the bridge when it reforms it puts you on top of it), you're probably dead, anyways.

Distant Planet

Banned. It has a walk-off edge, the rain can mean death if your opponent grabs the ledge and you’re playing, say, Olimar or Zero Suit Samus. Plus, you could die by getting hit into the weird monster’s mouth INSTANTLY…

The walk-off edge is fairly easy to avoid. If someone tries to camp there and you have no projectiles, the pellets that appear can help you out a bit. If that doesn't work, the rainwater will force them off of it.

The rainwater seems intimidating, but it doesn't stop you from grabbing the ledge at the bottom, nor does it stop you from jumping off before you reach the ledge. If you're a tether-user and your opponent grabs the ledge and you fall off, you can still use your double-jump and use your tether on one of the main platform's ledges.

As for the bulborb... Well, I've never seen anyone die from it unless they have the letters "CPU" above their character. It's really not that hard to avoid.

Frigate Orpheon

Counter-Pick. You can get killed by being in the wrong spot at the wrong time. Unfair, no? But that doesn’t quite warrant a ban, since it is quite a rare occurrence. Even ignoring this, it would be borderline neutral, since some of the platforms move around a LOT. You could grab a ledge when a platform begins to move and get killed by it, I think. Otherwise, though, a fair stage.

I really think people overrate how hard it is to deal with the stage's flipping... Considering that you're given a loud siren of warning before the stage flips, you deserve to lose a life if you get killed by it (and feel free to hold me to that, too). It sounds like a problem if you're in the middle of a recovery, but if you think about it, it's not too different from the opponent going over and gimping you. I admit it's not a perfect stage, but it doesn't really give anyone an advantage or disadvantage since everyone shares the same issues equally.

Halberd

I’m hard-pressed to call this Counter-Pick. The stage hazards are avoidable, and everything else is rather fair. However, it’s easy to get killed when the platform first leaves the hangar. By easy, I mean… If you stand there on the ground- Say, trapped by a Pit’s arrow spamming, or even Wolf or Snake, etc.- YOU DIE. That’s it. Pretty much the same when it leaves the Halberd, meaning you die if you have to recover at the wrong time. A rather debatable stage, mind you.

I've never heard this argument before... How can you get trapped by projectile spamming from those people? Their rate of fire isn't fast enough to keep you on the ground (or at least not enough to prevent you from shielding and rolling away).

Anyways, the area at the start only lasts like... 3 seconds before the platform takes off. That's hardly enough time for an opponent to set up camp for firing off repeated projectiles unless you're working with the opponent to get it working.

Hanenbow

Banned. Not just because I hate this stage, but because it isn’t a very fair one. The leaves can interrupt projectiles, AND they move, making certain physical attacks more/less useful. Plus, there isn’t really a place to fight.

I see it as more of a counter-pick for people with superior airgame. Most of the fighting will take place in the air, and the fact the leaves can be used to stop projectile spam just helps make it a CP stage since you could pick it to stop projectile campers.

Luigi’s Mansion

Neutral. Borderline neutral/counter-pick. The non-pass-through ceilings can create a mini-Cave of Life, but it’s very small. Besides, WHO THE HECK CAN TECH OFF OF A CEILING FIVE INCHES ABOVE THEM? Think about that before making it counter-pick on your list. I understand bouncing around, but the distance is just too small to really keep you in there. It’s a fine stage, methinks.

Plus it's easy enough to turn into a Final Destination-like stage.

Mario Circuit

Counter-Pick/Banned. Not quite sure. The cars can kill rather easily, and it has walk-off edges. That pretty much makes it an easy-to-ban stage. But still, it has a rather fair platform setup, and you can see the cars coming thanks to the map. Still, an up throw into them can murder you…

The cars don't kill nearly as easily as the ones at Port Town do. You have to be at the point where the opponent can KO you on their own before the cars can do it, in which case, that's more like using the cars to their advantage (not to mention that there's a warning when the cars are coming and a map in the background to keep track of where they are...).

New Pork City

Banned. Gimme a break. This thing is HUGE, you might now be able to see your character, and then there’s the Ultimate Chimera…

The Ultimate Chimera is so easy to dodge that it's hardly worth mentioning, but yeah, this one's definitely getting the banhammer.

Norfair

Banned. This stage has FOUR hazards: the background fire spray, the lava wave, the lava wall, and the rising lava. I understand the wave can be avoided moderately easily, but still.

They all can be easily avoided. The camera zooms out when the lava is coming out to one side, the lava rising wasn't enough to ban Brinstar in melee, and the wave isn't "moderately" easy to avoid, it's very easy. Airdodge, sidestep/spotdodge, or shielding can prevent you from getting hit by it if you'd rather not bother with the capsule. You can shield the lava plumes, too.

Pirate Ship

Banned. The stage has three hazards: the pirate cannon thing blasting you with bombs, the catapult, and the ship itself. That is WAY too nutty for a tournament scene. Plus, you have the decrease in falling speed and increase in jump speed when the ship flies up in the air. AND, the ship gets grounded by that rock. Sure, you know when it’s about to happen, but it isn’t an avoidable thing. Anyway, as for the replies I can foresee pertaining to the bombs and catapult: Not everyone has the time to watch the background. And what happens if you get hit into the catapult?

That’s what I thought. Now, as for the ship: it’s instant death if you get hit by the front. characters will long tether recoveries, like Zero Suit Samus and Ivysaur, land in the water unless you click A in six hundredths of a second or whatever.

I think you exaggerate how hard it is to pay attention to the background. If it were really that big an issue, Halbierd would be considered for banning despite how easy you can see the hazards (which I believe are said to have ~10 seconds of warning before the attacks occur). The catapult waits a few seconds before firing, and if the opponent shoves you into it as it does, that's using the stage to their advantage.

For the last part, you shouldn't be touching the front of the ship whenever you're recovering. If you can't reach the front of the ship and you have tether recovery, you can always just touch the water and jump back up to the ship without using the tether. You should be able to jump out before you hit the front of the ship.

Rumble Falls

Banned. Again, play on a Melee stage, Icicle Mountain, but on Slow-Mo Melee. Just imagine your characters as normal, with random intervals of quick scrolling.

But at the same time, add in stage hazards and moving platforms. Spikes that can kill at about 0%.

The spikes kill at more like 30%, but it's still rather low... Even so, the spikes are always in the same place, so it could potentially make for a counter-pick against characters that don't have impressive jumping power...

I know it probably stands a chance of being banned, but really, comparing it to Icicle Mountain is a bit much. It gives decent warning before speeding up, and most of the time it's not too hard to fight with the opponent while keeping up with the stage (unlike in Icicle Mountain, where your best bet was to keep moving and wait for the stage to kill the enemy...).

WarioWare, Inc.

Banned. The main stage is fair, but it’s the micro games that make it bad. Especially noting the rewards: free Invincibility, free Super Mushroom, free Poison Mushroom… Hmm. Or even if you complete a micro game, your opponent may become invincible, and you giant or nothing.

Winning a microgame doesn't ever give you a Poison Mushroom, but aside from the other rewards you listed and nothing, it can also heal you a bit. Definetly a fun stage, but simply not good in a competative setting. It's certain that this one's also not going to make the cut.

Well honestly the only answer I could possibly come up for that is that he's > you. I'm not sure why you're asking the question.

My point is that it can't hurt campers as bad as you claim it does when it doesn't bother my friend too badly. My win/loss ratio to him has nothing to do with it (although if anything, it just helps the neutral argument even more since if it was indeed camper unfriendly, I'd win a lot more against him since I'm Ike).

 

[MysticKenji]

Bridge of Eldin
Banned. Dedede can chain grab across this stage, yes? Plus, King Bulblin… And the rare chance of getting stuck under the stage… And the fact it’s HUGE… Yeah.

1. Personal bans
2. Bulbin is a joke.
3. If you get stuck under the stage, you deserve to lose your stock
4. So?

Distant Planet
Banned. It has a walk-off edge, the rain can mean death if your opponent grabs the ledge and you’re playing, say, Olimar or Zero Suit Samus. Plus, you could die by getting hit into the weird monster’s mouth INSTANTLY

All of Distant Planet's hazards are a joke.
Also, personal bans.

Green Hill Zone
...the stage hazards (Though, they are easily avoidable….)

The checkpoint is a joke.

Halberd
However, it’s easy to get killed when the platform first leaves the hangar. By easy, I mean… If you stand there on the ground- Say, trapped by a Pit’s arrow spamming, or even Wolf or Snake, etc.- YOU DIE.

Then don't stay on the ground.

Hanenbow
The leaves can interrupt projectiles, AND they move, making certain physical attacks more/less useful.

...which would make it a counterpick >_>

Mushroomy Kingdom
I think that the stage that plays is determined by the music that plays.

I hope you're right.
EDIT: You're wrong.

Norfair
Banned. This stage has FOUR hazards: the background fire spray, the lava wave, the lava wall, and the rising lava. I understand the wave can be avoided moderately easily, but still.

All of these hazards are incredibly easy to avoid.

Pirate Ship
Banned. The stage has three hazards: the pirate cannon thing blasting you with bombs, the catapult, and the ship itself. That is WAY too nutty for a tournament scene. Plus, you have the decrease in falling speed and increase in jump speed when the ship flies up in the air. AND, the ship gets grounded by that rock. Sure, you know when it’s about to happen, but it isn’t an avoidable thing. Anyway, as for the replies I can foresee pertaining to the bombs and catapult: Not everyone has the time to watch the background. And what happens if you get hit into the catapult?

1. If you actually get hit by the bombs (unless you're recovering), then you weren't paying attention and deserve to get hit
2. The catapult is a joke
3. Both the air and the rock are CP-worthy

Now, as for the ship: it’s instant death if you get hit by the front. characters will long tether recoveries, like Zero Suit Samus and Ivysaur, land in the water...

No, they don't.

Pokemon Stadium 2
Counter-Pick/Neutral. I’m not sure on this one either. The transformations can get rather zany, but not enough to ban it. Especially considering it’s good old Pokemon Stadium most of the time.

I'd say CP, because of the wind farm

 

[ShadowLink84]

Bridge of Eldin

Banned. Dedede can chain grab across this stage, yes? Plus, King Bulblin… And the rare chance of getting stuck under the stage… And the fact it’s HUGE… Yeah.

If you get stuck under the bridge you are most obviously a fool. It clearly tells you before the bridge reappears when the screen dims and the portal appears above.
King Bulbin can be ignored by jumping over him easily and if you hit him at the right moment he won't toss the bomb.
DDD can simply be prevented from chaingrabbing and you can actually escape the chain grab so I do wish peolpe to stop using this reason.

Distant Planet

Banned. It has a walk-off edge, the rain can mean death if your opponent grabs the ledge and you’re playing, say, Olimar or Zero Suit Samus. Plus, you could die by getting hit into the weird monster’s mouth INSTANTLY…

The tethers have priority and actually grab the edge since they knock your opponent off it.. Or thats what I hear.
The monster is no issue since if you've fallen that far to begin with, your opponent would have gimped you to death.

Frigate Orpheon

Counter-Pick. You can get killed by being in the wrong spot at the wrong time. Unfair, no? But that doesn’t quite warrant a ban, since it is quite a rare occurrence. Even ignoring this, it would be borderline neutral, since some of the platforms move around a LOT. You could grab a ledge when a platform begins to move and get killed by it, I think. Otherwise, though, a fair stage.

Eh you're ******** if you get killed. You get a massive warning beforehand so its not biggy and the platforms are grabbale I believe.

Green Hill Zone

Banned. Walk-off edges, the stage hazards (Though, they are easily avoidable….), and the fact the stage breaks whether you attack it or not… Scenario: You as a character with a Stall-then-Fall aerial attack. You use it, but during the stall part, the stage breaks. You die. And lose. Yeah, it’d be a rare occurrence, but still.

Stage hazards are easily avoidable which is similar to Orpheon. In fact you can trigger the stage hazards such as the checkpoint by hitting it. So just don't hit it. Not sure about the ground breaking up but I haven't found it an issue at all.

Halberd

I’m hard-pressed to call this Counter-Pick. The stage hazards are avoidable, and everything else is rather fair. However, it’s easy to get killed when the platform first leaves the hangar. By easy, I mean… If you stand there on the ground- Say, trapped by a Pit’s arrow spamming, or even Wolf or Snake, etc.- YOU DIE. That’s it. Pretty much the same when it leaves the Halberd, meaning you die if you have to recover at the wrong time. A rather debatable stage, mind you.

I've never died trying to recover. I used a spring as Sonic right when the stage left and I went up just as I normally do.
you shouldn't even die in the beginning because Pit can't keep you off the stage easily nor can Snake or Wolf. Just jump over them since spammed moves shouldn't cause an issue with you, especially when they are easily avoided.

Hanenbow

Banned. Not just because I hate this stage, but because it isn’t a very fair one. The leaves can interrupt projectiles, AND they move, making certain physical attacks more/less useful. Plus, there isn’t really a place to fight.

Eh I am not sure about it. Considering it hinders EVERYONE and isn't providing an advantage to one character or the other.
Grante dit hurts projectile spammers but every stage favors one character or another to begin with.

Mario Circuit

Counter-Pick/Banned. Not quite sure. The cars can kill rather easily, and it has walk-off edges. That pretty much makes it an easy-to-ban stage. But still, it has a rather fair platform setup, and you can see the cars coming thanks to the map. Still, an up throw into them can murder you…

The cars don't kill until EXTREMELY high percentages.
194% as Sonic when it finally killed me. the cars are seeable and easily dodgable, No reason for you to get killed by them.

Mushroomy Kingdom

Counter-Pick. Sure, it scrolls, but it’s REALLY slow. The blocks might get in your way a little, but only if you don’t know how to jump over them. Now, this is just for 1-1. If 1-2 loads, cancel the match. One trick that I think works is this: turn all music for Underground all the way down, except for one, putting it at the lowest possible frequency. I think that the stage that plays is determined by the music that plays.

WTF?
If 1-2 loads cancel? That's basically leaving things up to chance since that means I may have been able to win that match ebcause my opponent was 1 stock and I had 3 and cause we canceled I have to go through it all over again? Kinda poor reason. The music does not affect the appearance of the underground stage at all. Its entirely random.
movable stages are annoying, walk off edges means dedede is gonna chaingrab to the left and while it can be gotten out of it is tricky at low percentages. Not really good since the left side is shorter than the right in KO distance.

Norfair

Banned. This stage has FOUR hazards: the background fire spray, the lava wave, the lava wall, and the rising lava. I understand the wave can be avoided moderately easily, but still.

Shield the lava wave.
Background spray is really the only issue but thats avoidable too since you can see it coming.
Thats three hazards.

Oh and Golden sun music makes this song legal. ^_^

Shadow Moses Island

Banned. Dedede can chain grab you to death here. I’m not sure, but I think the walls break from Dedede throwing you (Though by then, you might’ve lost a stock already.), but then you have walk-off edges. Hmm. Lose-lose situation.

They don't break if he is chaingrabbing you and he can't do it for an infinite amunt of time.
Counter pick IMO

Smashville

Neutral. Final Destination, but smaller, and with a moving platform. Not bad.

Without the ****ed up edges too.

I only mentioned those I disagreed with or just wanted to comment on.

 

[Bacon Man11]

I don't see how Delfino is neutral at all. It has walk off edges and water gives an advantage to spikers.

CP yes, neutral... no.

 

[the melon!!!!!]

I don't see how Delfino is neutral at all. It has walk off edges and water gives an advantage to spikers.

CP yes, neutral... no.

Honestly, I disagree. Sure, it has those things, but look at how long they are there. 20 seconds around? If you are careful enough to not get caught in a deadly combo, then it is perfectly fine.

Second off, Luigi's Mansion, at first, did seem Neutral yes. I could care less about the Cave of Life effect. Besides, the stage breaks apart as you play on it anyway, so it can only be a temporary hazard. Then we played it. The matches averaged 6 and a half minutes long. It is possible that they could even ban the stage due to length of the match, but we decided a CP would be best.

 

[methinkso]

WTF?
If 1-2 loads cancel? That's basically leaving things up to chance since that means I may have been able to win that match ebcause my opponent was 1 stock and I had 3 and cause we canceled I have to go through it all over again? Kinda poor reason. The music does not affect the appearance of the underground stage at all. Its entirely random.

What are you talking about? Which version loads is determined only at the beginning of the match. Try canceling it at the beginning of the match instead and not calling johns 4 minutes after the fact.

 

[Patinator]

Meh. I always go overboard when it comes to banning stages.

Heck, if things were my way, counter pick stages would be banned, creating only the fairest environments. But then, things would get boring.

Still, this is Super Smash Bros. Brawl, a fighting game, not a fight game with a mix of stage hazard dodging.

...I need to loosen up...

I suppose I can see Norfair being counter pick, but there's four hazards.

Lava wall that comes from the side - lava wave from the back - rising lava - fire streams from the background.

But still, I can see it more counter-pick. Same with Shadow Moses, and heck even Bridge of Eldin...

As I said, I'm really strict. Too strict.

 

[ZenJestr]

yea you kinda are...hehehe....

 

[Crom]

Went to a huge tourny on Sunday, 128 entrants, $900 for first place.

It was neutrals only, and everything was fair and awesome.

I have absolutely no idea why you all want to throw lame stages into the mix


edit: typos = april fools filter

 

[AlexX]

Went to a huge tourny on Sunday, 128 entrants, $900 for first place.

It was neutrals only, and everything was fair and awesome.

I have absolutely no idea why you all want to throw lame stages into the mix

The stages aren't "lame", they're unique and, aside from personal enjoyment, can be used to give your character a slight leg-up after you've lost a match (which is the entire point of a counter-pick stage).

Besides, the Smash competative scene already has a fairly poor image that makes others more hesitant to join it. We really don't want to make that worse...

(I'll assume you're all smart enough to figure out what's going on with anything that looks odd in this post...)

 

[wWw Dazwa]

What's the matter? Can't say Smash?

EDIT: WHY THE HELL DOES MATTER FILTER TO MATTER?

EDIT2: Matt? Matt?

 

[Crom]

The stages aren't "lame", they're unique and, aside from personal enjoyment, can be used to give your character a slight leg-up after you've lost a match (which is the entire point of a counter-pick stage).

Besides, the Smash competative scene already has a fairly poor image that makes others more hesitant to join it. We really don't want to make that worse...

(I'll assume you're all smart enough to figure out what's going on with anything that looks odd in this post...)

I'll agree some can be unique and fun, but I'd only want to play them at home / casually.

To me, in a competitive environment, only the fairest stages should be allowed. Anything else detracts from the overall goal of having the results reflect skill. Instead someone may get a little farther in a tourny by gimping people on some crappy stage they spent a lot of time (t1me) practicing on. Some people consider this a legitimate strategy for tournaments, but I disagree whole heartedly. If you can't win on a neutral map you don't deserve to win in my book.

 

[Eten]

I'll agree some can be unique and fun, but I'd only want to play them at home / casually.

To me, in a competitive environment, only the fairest stages should be allowed. Anything else detracts from the overall goal of having the results reflect skill. Instead someone may get a little farther in a tourny by gimping people on some crappy stage they spent a lot of time (t1me) practicing on. Some people consider this a legitimate strategy for tournaments, but I disagree whole heartedly. If you can't win on a neutral map you don't deserve to win in my book.

This is where you are wrong.
There is no way you can define some stages more fair than others. I've said this before, but the assumption that a stage like Final Destination of Battlefield is "more fair" than a stage like Hanenbow is incorrect. You can't just arbitrarily decide that one stage is the norm that all others are based upon comparatively, instead all stage differences are only relative to each other and there IS no definable "standard" of a stage that is more fair. To sum it up, when you say "crappy stage" you really mean "stage I don't like". And that would be a garbage reason to limit stages with! Let's not forget, certain characters just are better suited to some stages over others, so when you go about banning any stage that you don't like you'll end up grossly changing the face of character balance.

And all on something as arbitrary as your definition of a "crappy stage"

If you don't know how a stage works, it's your own fault. I get the impression from you that you just don't want to be bothered learning most of the stages and only want to keep to the simple ones so you don't keep losing to these "unfair" other stages. (See: You crying about Frigate Orpheon).


We've got to use some clear, concise reasons for the classification of stages in different groups. Now we all know why we cut out items from tournament play. That same reasoning goes for random stage elements. But there is a difference between different rewards from Warioware and which direction the next lava wave in Norfair comes from that we need to recognize. Infinite/uncounterable stalling has the same sort of negative impact on competitive play, too, and it makes sense why to cut out stages that allow that to be abused.

It's that issue of randomness one more time that breaks up that difference between Neutral stages and counterpick stages. Grabbing the simple stages, throwing them together in a small group where there is extreme consistency between them is a surefire way that no one is just going to end up "luckier" in a tournament setting. But they need to balance that out w/ the rest of the stages, and so that's why they include those counterpick rules in the first place. There is still no luck involved, and this way it doesn't unjustly cut out what are perfectly legit stages.

 

[lain]

Fine, play my Dedede with Ike on Bridge of Eldin. How's that for fair. Make 1 grab mistake, you're dead.

The point to get across is that stages are banned because they offer too great of an advantage. Would you allow Hyrule Temple? I could play fox against you (let's say for instance, Bowser). If I can shoot you with 1 laser, I've won the match. There is nothing you can do to get it back.

 

[Crom]

The fairest stages haven't been decided by me, they're the ones the tournament players / directors have already labeled as neutral.

Also, I'm not arguing for nearly all the stages to be banned because I keep loosing on them (I'll win regardless if I'm better than my opponent), I just don't like them and feel that they detract from the competitive experience.

Just out of curiosity, have you played / done well in any tournaments? ( no offense or anything either way, just want to get an idea of what position your looking at this debate from )

I seriously don't understand why everyone is so concerned with having a ton of maps available at tournaments. Do you want variety? Or do you like the idea of having more practice on a stage that's not played often and using it to your advantage?

I got 5th in a 128 man tourny on Sunday that used nuetral maps only and it was a blast. The fact that a majority of the stages were banned didn't get in the way at all, infact it just made everything go smoother. Variety is definitely not an issue at all when you've got 6-7 maps to choose from (they included delfino and PS1 as nuetrals). Adding more random / hazardous maps wouldn't have added anything to the experience.

 

[Firestorm88]

I like:
1. Variety
2. Strategy
3. Music (**** you guys if halberd and pirate ship aren't in you die)
4. Perception of competitive smash amongst the larger gaming community

 

[Eki]

Lain has a point there. greater advantages. well hmmm lets see what do you think about Delfino plaza being a banned stage? there are some good reasons why it should be... well at least let it not be a counterpick at all. or nuetral.

1. Walk off stage
2. Unsensitive bottom platforms
3. availiable fly attacks from wing chars.

 

[mugwhump]

I have to put in a good word for Great Sea, it just allows for SO MANY unique strategies. It's got:

1) An interesting water game
2) Slanted ground. Players can use this to slide out of punishing range after laggy aerials. Opens up some neat possibilities.
3) Platforms that let you do the platform cancelling thing on them.
4) Low-gravity game! Again, opens up lots of new possibilities.

And the only hazards on this stage are COMPLETELY PREDICTABLE.

Only a poop head would ban this stage.


Edit:
And about Delfino, I think the only game-breaking problem is walk-off edges, which DDD can exploit. Even in the 2.5% of possible match-ups that involve DDD, the opponent can stay out of the danger zone by keeping themselves on platforms or on unlevel ground.

 

[Bacon Man11]

^Also, characters with spikes will destroy you if you land in the water.

This is also kinda WAY out there, but Charizard drowns real easy too.

 

[Undrdog]

Just for the fun of it and since I can't stand no knowing whether the Smash Back Room is slaughtering the stage list I'll list my opinion on the matter.

Stages set to Random:
Battle Field
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Yoshi's Island
Castle Siege
Smashville

Counterpick Stages:
Luigi's Mansion
Mario Circuit
Bridge of Eldin
Pirate Ship
Norfair
Lylat Cruise
New Port Harbor (heavily considering removal)
Shadow Moses Island (heavily considering removal)
Green Hill Zone
Rainbow Ride
Corneria


I don't like the idea of removing so many levels due to King Dedede. Many characters can get out of his chaingrab anyways, and others he can do it to without even moving. It's already an infinite against some characters. So yeah, I don't see the need to ban walk-offs.

 

[NintendoTogepi]

Fine, play my Dedede with Ike on Bridge of Eldin. How's that for fair. Make 1 grab mistake, you're dead.

The point to get across is that stages are banned because they offer too great of an advantage. Would you allow Hyrule Temple? I could play fox against you (let's say for instance, Bowser). If I can shoot you with 1 laser, I've won the match. There is nothing you can do to get it back.

How have you won the match? You'll go into sudden death because you both have the same amount of stocks...

 

[AlexX]

Fine, play my Dedede with Ike on Bridge of Eldin. How's that for fair. Make 1 grab mistake, you're dead.

Read the individual character pages. Characters have begun to find ways to escape the dreaded chain-grab.

 

[Undrdog]

Explain how you die from being grabbed by Dedede. Only certain characters can't Up-B out of it. Others can DI out of it. And to a few characters he can do it without having to move. Which is an instant kill on any stage.

 

[Mr.Lombardi34]

Alright, I don't feel like arguing about DDD's chaingrab right now, so I'm going to throw something out there that's completely unrelated: I think that Final Destination should be a counterpick stage!

FD noticably hinders certain character's recoveries, and that is the exact definition of counterpick. Any character who's third jump goes horizontaly will end up under the stage falling to their doom if they try to grab the ledge. Take snake, for example. His C4 moves him diaganolly. Say he gets spiked at around 70%. It isn't enough to kill him, so he jumps up and is close to the ledge, so he activates C4. FD then gimps his recovery, leaving him falling, unable to control his character. This is clearly a disadvantage to characters like snake, squirtle, and Captain falcon.

On the other hand, tether recoverers, such as ivysaur and olimar, and third jumps that go straight up, like ike and kirby, have no trouble at all with FD's brutal edges. For them, it's just like normal. We have considered changing the legality of certain stages because they disadvantage tether recoverers, and I don't see how this is any different.

 

[Eten]

Fine, play my Dedede with Ike on Bridge of Eldin. How's that for fair. Make 1 grab mistake, you're dead.

The point to get across is that stages are banned because they offer too great of an advantage. Would you allow Hyrule Temple? I could play fox against you (let's say for instance, Bowser). If I can shoot you with 1 laser, I've won the match. There is nothing you can do to get it back.

Ike is one of the characters that has the ability to jab out of it even when D3 is properly using shield-dash cancelled grabs. The point to get across is that banning stages in attempt avoid the situation of chain-grab infinites off the side of the stage, the ways to counter it may just never end up being developed, and while you're trying to prevent one character from having too much of an advantage King Dedede is using an infinite on characters other than Ike on any stage. Now what? Trying to define stages as banned because they offer "too much" of an advantage is gonna be flawed. I seriously don't think anyone should even be attempting to moderate the character balance by selectively picking what stages can and can't be played on.

1 laser doesn't win the match, 1 stock wins the match, or else it ends in sudden death, btw. If someone wants they could argue all you have to do is avoid losing a stock first and they can't ever stall on you. I'd ban stages that have circular paths to allow infinite stalling for reasons completely to having too much of an advantage, and everything to do with people going to lose interest in a game where you run away for 6 minutes to win a tournament.

 

[DQP]

pirate ship should be banned because of swimming and cannnonfire
spear pillar should be banned because of palkia and diagla
bridge of eldin because of king bublin
75m because of donkey kong and springs
green hill because of "checkpoints" and destructability
warioware because of the reward system
mario bros because of hard-to-KO areas
new pork because, well, see temple
temple because, well, see new pork
rumble falls because it scrolls
mushroomy kingdom because it scrolls and because of a completely random stage popping up
norfair because of lava
brinstar because see norfair

thats my take

 

[NintendoTogepi]

Alright, I don't feel like arguing about DDD's chaingrab right now, so I'm going to throw something out there that's completely unrelated: I think that Final Destination should be a counterpick stage!

FD noticably hinders certain character's recoveries, and that is the exact definition of counterpick. Any character who's third jump goes horizontaly will end up under the stage falling to their doom if they try to grab the ledge. Take snake, for example. His C4 moves him diaganolly. Say he gets spiked at around 70%. It isn't enough to kill him, so he jumps up and is close to the ledge, so he activates C4. FD then gimps his recovery, leaving him falling, unable to control his character. This is clearly a disadvantage to characters like snake, squirtle, and Captain falcon.

On the other hand, tether recoverers, such as ivysaur and olimar, and third jumps that go straight up, like ike and kirby, have no trouble at all with FD's brutal edges. For them, it's just like normal. We have considered changing the legality of certain stages because they disadvantage tether recoverers, and I don't see how this is any different.

There's also the favoring projectile users, the lousy aerial game and stuff...

I'd say it's a lot closer to counterpick than neutral...

 

[Mic_128]

Lain has a point there. greater advantages. well hmmm lets see what do you think about Delfino plaza being a banned stage? there are some good reasons why it should be... well at least let it not be a counterpick at all. or nuetral.

1. Walk off stage
2. Unsensitive bottom platforms
3. availiable fly attacks from wing chars.

1. It has 1 walk off edge that's around for at most 20 seconds. If you can't not get grabbed for 20 seconds...

2. No idea what you mean by that.

3. Oh man, they might be able to use attacks that's in the game! :o

Alright, I don't feel like arguing about DDD's chaingrab right now, so I'm going to throw something out there that's completely unrelated: I think that Final Destination should be a counterpick stage!

FD noticably hinders certain character's recoveries, and that is the exact definition of counterpick. Any character who's third jump goes horizontaly will end up under the stage falling to their doom if they try to grab the ledge. Take snake, for example. His C4 moves him diaganolly. Say he gets spiked at around 70%. It isn't enough to kill him, so he jumps up and is close to the ledge, so he activates C4. FD then gimps his recovery, leaving him falling, unable to control his character. This is clearly a disadvantage to characters like snake, squirtle, and Captain falcon.

On the other hand, tether recoverers, such as ivysaur and olimar, and third jumps that go straight up, like ike and kirby, have no trouble at all with FD's brutal edges. For them, it's just like normal. We have considered changing the legality of certain stages because they disadvantage tether recoverers, and I don't see how this is any different.

The thing is, that's exactly what Battlefield had and that was still Neutral. You just need t pay a bit more attention when recovering on those stages is all.

 

[Undrdog]

Just because it's a random stage doesn't mean you can't counterpick it. It just means that it's considered balanced enough to be random. If there were twenty stages worthy of being set to random we wouldn't limit it to any less.

The point is we should throw what we know about Melee's rules out the window. In all respect to the Smash Back Room and those who contributed to the set of banned stages to Melee I believe that the area of banned stages were butchered to an extent. Melee did have some insane levels that would never make the cut for tournament play, but stages like Onett were comepletely fine. The cars that were considered cheap actually protected against Fox's infinite. and the walk off area could be avoided easily. Mushroom Kingdom two is usually banned as well. Heck Jungle Japes, while certainly banned in Brawl, was almost banned from tournaments.

I think stage diversity is very important and one or two characters can't ruin it. In all honest, as crazy as this sounds, I'd rather see one character banned then ten stages because of him/her. But that's beside the point because Dedede's chaingrab is only inescapable by a few characters. And most of the ones who can't are the ones that Dedede can do in place.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

Neutral:

Battlefield: Flat, 3 platforms. Very basic.
Final Destination: Flat, and aside from the annoying edges similar to Battlefield in Melee, no major issues.
Yoshi's Island: Flat, moving platform. Pretty basic.
Smashville: Flat, moving platform.
Lylat Cruise: Slow moving stage, basically like Battlefield with some tilting action.
Delfino Plaza: Moves between a Battlefield like stage and a few other ordinary looking areas.
Pokemon Stadium: I see no reason to ban this stage. The windmill isn't worse than the rock formation for camping, and if you don't like it, wait a minute.. >_>
Castle Siege: Moves between 3 sections, 2 of which are very basic. The 2nd part has a walk off, but there are platforms. Potentially moved to counterpick but I'll leave it here for now.
Halberd: I'd debate putting this on the counterpick list because of the random damaging distraction, but it is very easy to avoid.

Counterpick:

Frigate Orpheon: Flips over, could offer an advantage to characters who could survive the flip (assuming they get caught by it).
Rainbow Cruise: Slow moving, could offer advantage to characters with multiple jumps and/or good air games.
Pokemon Stadium 2: Gravity and treadmills can offer advantage to some characters, pretty basic otherwise. Potentially moved to neutrals.
Distant Planet: Walk off on one side, and an easy to avoid hazard.
Brinstar: Lava offers advantage to some characters.
Hanenbow: Weird stage, can't see banning it as of now.
Green Greens: Bomb blocks and apples, otherwise basic.
Green Hill Zone: Walk off edges.
Pirate Ship: Some damaging distractions.
Onett: some damaging distractions.
PictoChat: Damaging distractions, otherwise no problems.
Port Town Aero Dive: Cars do damage, similar to Mute City from Melee.
Jungle Japes: Same as melee.
Shadow Moses Island: Not sure if the walls or walk off will prove to be a problem, making it a counterpick for now.
Skyworld: Breakable platforms, not sure if it will be a problem.
Luigi's Mansion: Stage offers some advantage against projectiles, otherwise basic.
The Summit: Kind of annoying, see no reason to ban it yet.

Banned:

Norfair: Huge lava wave can take a stock.
Mario Circuit: Walk off edges and damaging cars.
Mushroomy Kingdom: Walk off edges, side scrolling.
New Pork City: Way too big, someone can easily use a projectile and then run the whole match.
Rumble Falls: vertical scrolling, damaging distractions, walk off edges.
WarioWare, Inc.: Do I really need to explain this one?
Flat Zone 2: Damaging distractions, walk off edges.
75m: Too big, damaging distractions.
Mario Bros.: Good luck killing anyone who knows how to tech.
Spear Pillar: Damaging distractions, reverse controls.
Temple: Way too big, same problems as New Pork City and Mario Bros.
Big Blue: Movement is too fast.
Bridge of Eldin: Way too big, walk off, when there's a gap in the middle it'll just be a huge campfest.

I made more stages legal than a lot of people, mostly because I'd like to try them out in tournament to see if they'll be too much of a problem. I'd also like to eventually have a few preselected custom stages on the counterpick list.

This list I posted earlier on, just wanted to know what people think..

 

[KingofCereal]

I agree with all of your neutrals. If Onett and Port Town Aero Dive are counterpick then there is no reason for Mario Circuit to be banned. The problems that Onett and PTAD introduce are the same only worse than MC. I think it should be counterpick, but PTAD should be banned. That stage just sucks.