Bacon Man11
Smash Journeyman
Counterpicks are supposed to give advantages. Rainbow Cruise is a perfect fit for a counterpick.
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If it's so camper unfriendly, why does my friend seem to be able to do it just fine with Samus's charge shot and missiles?The fact that it's camper unfriendly is simply me offering a reason why someone might want to choose that course as a counterpick.
so it favors aerial combat.......boom...counterpick...Originally Posted by Mr.Lombardi34
^^I thought of that too, but that's not the main problem. The thing is, you really aren't focusing on the battle much when you're there. You can't stand in one place for more than a few seconds, and so the whole brawl will be very choppy. "Jump, jump, airdodge him, ooh, let's exchange some attacks...Quick, jump! Jump, jump, jump ect." That's how brawls work there.
Well honestly the only answer I could possibly come up for that is that he's > you. I'm not sure why you're asking the question.If it's so camper unfriendly, why does my friend seem to be able to do it just fine with Samus's charge shot and missiles?
He just knocks down the statue and runs off to do the same for the other side if I happen to get too close...
Wouldn't mind a bit of each, actually.Anyone care to agree/disagree/discuss on anything?
I personally think it's more of a CP stage. King Bulbin barely has any knockback on him, gives a loud horn before his arrival, and the bomb shouldn't be too hard to dodge since it has a few seconds before going off. It's a fairly large stage, but unlike NPC and the Temple, there's no real "circle" to take advantage of. Getting stuck under the stage... Never heard of that one before, and never seen it happen, but if you're below the bridge when it reforms (which you have warning of in the form of the twilight portal thingie... and if you're on the bridge when it reforms it puts you on top of it), you're probably dead, anyways.Bridge of Eldin
Banned. Dedede can chain grab across this stage, yes? Plus, King Bulblin… And the rare chance of getting stuck under the stage… And the fact it’s HUGE… Yeah.
The walk-off edge is fairly easy to avoid. If someone tries to camp there and you have no projectiles, the pellets that appear can help you out a bit. If that doesn't work, the rainwater will force them off of it.Distant Planet
Banned. It has a walk-off edge, the rain can mean death if your opponent grabs the ledge and you’re playing, say, Olimar or Zero Suit Samus. Plus, you could die by getting hit into the weird monster’s mouth INSTANTLY…
I really think people overrate how hard it is to deal with the stage's flipping... Considering that you're given a loud siren of warning before the stage flips, you deserve to lose a life if you get killed by it (and feel free to hold me to that, too). It sounds like a problem if you're in the middle of a recovery, but if you think about it, it's not too different from the opponent going over and gimping you. I admit it's not a perfect stage, but it doesn't really give anyone an advantage or disadvantage since everyone shares the same issues equally.Frigate Orpheon
Counter-Pick. You can get killed by being in the wrong spot at the wrong time. Unfair, no? But that doesn’t quite warrant a ban, since it is quite a rare occurrence. Even ignoring this, it would be borderline neutral, since some of the platforms move around a LOT. You could grab a ledge when a platform begins to move and get killed by it, I think. Otherwise, though, a fair stage.
I've never heard this argument before... How can you get trapped by projectile spamming from those people? Their rate of fire isn't fast enough to keep you on the ground (or at least not enough to prevent you from shielding and rolling away).Halberd
I’m hard-pressed to call this Counter-Pick. The stage hazards are avoidable, and everything else is rather fair. However, it’s easy to get killed when the platform first leaves the hangar. By easy, I mean… If you stand there on the ground- Say, trapped by a Pit’s arrow spamming, or even Wolf or Snake, etc.- YOU DIE. That’s it. Pretty much the same when it leaves the Halberd, meaning you die if you have to recover at the wrong time. A rather debatable stage, mind you.
I see it as more of a counter-pick for people with superior airgame. Most of the fighting will take place in the air, and the fact the leaves can be used to stop projectile spam just helps make it a CP stage since you could pick it to stop projectile campers.Hanenbow
Banned. Not just because I hate this stage, but because it isn’t a very fair one. The leaves can interrupt projectiles, AND they move, making certain physical attacks more/less useful. Plus, there isn’t really a place to fight.
Plus it's easy enough to turn into a Final Destination-like stage.Luigi’s Mansion
Neutral. Borderline neutral/counter-pick. The non-pass-through ceilings can create a mini-Cave of Life, but it’s very small. Besides, WHO THE HECK CAN TECH OFF OF A CEILING FIVE INCHES ABOVE THEM? Think about that before making it counter-pick on your list. I understand bouncing around, but the distance is just too small to really keep you in there. It’s a fine stage, methinks.
The cars don't kill nearly as easily as the ones at Port Town do. You have to be at the point where the opponent can KO you on their own before the cars can do it, in which case, that's more like using the cars to their advantage (not to mention that there's a warning when the cars are coming and a map in the background to keep track of where they are...).Mario Circuit
Counter-Pick/Banned. Not quite sure. The cars can kill rather easily, and it has walk-off edges. That pretty much makes it an easy-to-ban stage. But still, it has a rather fair platform setup, and you can see the cars coming thanks to the map. Still, an up throw into them can murder you…
The Ultimate Chimera is so easy to dodge that it's hardly worth mentioning, but yeah, this one's definitely getting the banhammer.New Pork City
Banned. Gimme a break. This thing is HUGE, you might now be able to see your character, and then there’s the Ultimate Chimera…
They all can be easily avoided. The camera zooms out when the lava is coming out to one side, the lava rising wasn't enough to ban Brinstar in melee, and the wave isn't "moderately" easy to avoid, it's very easy. Airdodge, sidestep/spotdodge, or shielding can prevent you from getting hit by it if you'd rather not bother with the capsule. You can shield the lava plumes, too.Norfair
Banned. This stage has FOUR hazards: the background fire spray, the lava wave, the lava wall, and the rising lava. I understand the wave can be avoided moderately easily, but still.
I think you exaggerate how hard it is to pay attention to the background. If it were really that big an issue, Halbierd would be considered for banning despite how easy you can see the hazards (which I believe are said to have ~10 seconds of warning before the attacks occur). The catapult waits a few seconds before firing, and if the opponent shoves you into it as it does, that's using the stage to their advantage.Pirate Ship
Banned. The stage has three hazards: the pirate cannon thing blasting you with bombs, the catapult, and the ship itself. That is WAY too nutty for a tournament scene. Plus, you have the decrease in falling speed and increase in jump speed when the ship flies up in the air. AND, the ship gets grounded by that rock. Sure, you know when it’s about to happen, but it isn’t an avoidable thing. Anyway, as for the replies I can foresee pertaining to the bombs and catapult: Not everyone has the time to watch the background. And what happens if you get hit into the catapult?
That’s what I thought. Now, as for the ship: it’s instant death if you get hit by the front. characters will long tether recoveries, like Zero Suit Samus and Ivysaur, land in the water unless you click A in six hundredths of a second or whatever.
The spikes kill at more like 30%, but it's still rather low... Even so, the spikes are always in the same place, so it could potentially make for a counter-pick against characters that don't have impressive jumping power...Rumble Falls
Banned. Again, play on a Melee stage, Icicle Mountain, but on Slow-Mo Melee. Just imagine your characters as normal, with random intervals of quick scrolling.
But at the same time, add in stage hazards and moving platforms. Spikes that can kill at about 0%.
Winning a microgame doesn't ever give you a Poison Mushroom, but aside from the other rewards you listed and nothing, it can also heal you a bit. Definetly a fun stage, but simply not good in a competative setting. It's certain that this one's also not going to make the cut.WarioWare, Inc.
Banned. The main stage is fair, but it’s the micro games that make it bad. Especially noting the rewards: free Invincibility, free Super Mushroom, free Poison Mushroom… Hmm. Or even if you complete a micro game, your opponent may become invincible, and you giant or nothing.
My point is that it can't hurt campers as bad as you claim it does when it doesn't bother my friend too badly. My win/loss ratio to him has nothing to do with it (although if anything, it just helps the neutral argument even more since if it was indeed camper unfriendly, I'd win a lot more against him since I'm Ike).Well honestly the only answer I could possibly come up for that is that he's > you. I'm not sure why you're asking the question.
1. Personal bansBridge of Eldin
Banned. Dedede can chain grab across this stage, yes? Plus, King Bulblin… And the rare chance of getting stuck under the stage… And the fact it’s HUGE… Yeah.
All of Distant Planet's hazards are a joke.Distant Planet
Banned. It has a walk-off edge, the rain can mean death if your opponent grabs the ledge and you’re playing, say, Olimar or Zero Suit Samus. Plus, you could die by getting hit into the weird monster’s mouth INSTANTLY
The checkpoint is a joke.Green Hill Zone
...the stage hazards (Though, they are easily avoidable….)
Then don't stay on the ground.Halberd
However, it’s easy to get killed when the platform first leaves the hangar. By easy, I mean… If you stand there on the ground- Say, trapped by a Pit’s arrow spamming, or even Wolf or Snake, etc.- YOU DIE.
...which would make it a counterpick >_>Hanenbow
The leaves can interrupt projectiles, AND they move, making certain physical attacks more/less useful.
I hope you're right.Mushroomy Kingdom
I think that the stage that plays is determined by the music that plays.
All of these hazards are incredibly easy to avoid.Norfair
Banned. This stage has FOUR hazards: the background fire spray, the lava wave, the lava wall, and the rising lava. I understand the wave can be avoided moderately easily, but still.
1. If you actually get hit by the bombs (unless you're recovering), then you weren't paying attention and deserve to get hitPirate Ship
Banned. The stage has three hazards: the pirate cannon thing blasting you with bombs, the catapult, and the ship itself. That is WAY too nutty for a tournament scene. Plus, you have the decrease in falling speed and increase in jump speed when the ship flies up in the air. AND, the ship gets grounded by that rock. Sure, you know when it’s about to happen, but it isn’t an avoidable thing. Anyway, as for the replies I can foresee pertaining to the bombs and catapult: Not everyone has the time to watch the background. And what happens if you get hit into the catapult?
No, they don't.Now, as for the ship: it’s instant death if you get hit by the front. characters will long tether recoveries, like Zero Suit Samus and Ivysaur, land in the water...
I'd say CP, because of the wind farmPokemon Stadium 2
Counter-Pick/Neutral. I’m not sure on this one either. The transformations can get rather zany, but not enough to ban it. Especially considering it’s good old Pokemon Stadium most of the time.
If you get stuck under the bridge you are most obviously a fool. It clearly tells you before the bridge reappears when the screen dims and the portal appears above.Bridge of Eldin
Banned. Dedede can chain grab across this stage, yes? Plus, King Bulblin… And the rare chance of getting stuck under the stage… And the fact it’s HUGE… Yeah.
The tethers have priority and actually grab the edge since they knock your opponent off it.. Or thats what I hear.Distant Planet
Banned. It has a walk-off edge, the rain can mean death if your opponent grabs the ledge and you’re playing, say, Olimar or Zero Suit Samus. Plus, you could die by getting hit into the weird monster’s mouth INSTANTLY…
Eh you're ******** if you get killed. You get a massive warning beforehand so its not biggy and the platforms are grabbale I believe.Frigate Orpheon
Counter-Pick. You can get killed by being in the wrong spot at the wrong time. Unfair, no? But that doesn’t quite warrant a ban, since it is quite a rare occurrence. Even ignoring this, it would be borderline neutral, since some of the platforms move around a LOT. You could grab a ledge when a platform begins to move and get killed by it, I think. Otherwise, though, a fair stage.
Stage hazards are easily avoidable which is similar to Orpheon. In fact you can trigger the stage hazards such as the checkpoint by hitting it. So just don't hit it. Not sure about the ground breaking up but I haven't found it an issue at all.Green Hill Zone
Banned. Walk-off edges, the stage hazards (Though, they are easily avoidable….), and the fact the stage breaks whether you attack it or not… Scenario: You as a character with a Stall-then-Fall aerial attack. You use it, but during the stall part, the stage breaks. You die. And lose. Yeah, it’d be a rare occurrence, but still.
I've never died trying to recover. I used a spring as Sonic right when the stage left and I went up just as I normally do.Halberd
I’m hard-pressed to call this Counter-Pick. The stage hazards are avoidable, and everything else is rather fair. However, it’s easy to get killed when the platform first leaves the hangar. By easy, I mean… If you stand there on the ground- Say, trapped by a Pit’s arrow spamming, or even Wolf or Snake, etc.- YOU DIE. That’s it. Pretty much the same when it leaves the Halberd, meaning you die if you have to recover at the wrong time. A rather debatable stage, mind you.
Eh I am not sure about it. Considering it hinders EVERYONE and isn't providing an advantage to one character or the other.Hanenbow
Banned. Not just because I hate this stage, but because it isn’t a very fair one. The leaves can interrupt projectiles, AND they move, making certain physical attacks more/less useful. Plus, there isn’t really a place to fight.
The cars don't kill until EXTREMELY high percentages.Mario Circuit
Counter-Pick/Banned. Not quite sure. The cars can kill rather easily, and it has walk-off edges. That pretty much makes it an easy-to-ban stage. But still, it has a rather fair platform setup, and you can see the cars coming thanks to the map. Still, an up throw into them can murder you…
WTF?Mushroomy Kingdom
Counter-Pick. Sure, it scrolls, but it’s REALLY slow. The blocks might get in your way a little, but only if you don’t know how to jump over them. Now, this is just for 1-1. If 1-2 loads, cancel the match. One trick that I think works is this: turn all music for Underground all the way down, except for one, putting it at the lowest possible frequency. I think that the stage that plays is determined by the music that plays.
Shield the lava wave.Norfair
Banned. This stage has FOUR hazards: the background fire spray, the lava wave, the lava wall, and the rising lava. I understand the wave can be avoided moderately easily, but still.
They don't break if he is chaingrabbing you and he can't do it for an infinite amunt of time.Shadow Moses Island
Banned. Dedede can chain grab you to death here. I’m not sure, but I think the walls break from Dedede throwing you (Though by then, you might’ve lost a stock already.), but then you have walk-off edges. Hmm. Lose-lose situation.
Without the ****ed up edges too.Smashville
Neutral. Final Destination, but smaller, and with a moving platform. Not bad.
I don't see how Delfino is neutral at all. It has walk off edges and water gives an advantage to spikers.
CP yes, neutral... no.
What are you talking about? Which version loads is determined only at the beginning of the match. Try canceling it at the beginning of the match instead and not calling johns 4 minutes after the fact.WTF?
If 1-2 loads cancel? That's basically leaving things up to chance since that means I may have been able to win that match ebcause my opponent was 1 stock and I had 3 and cause we canceled I have to go through it all over again? Kinda poor reason. The music does not affect the appearance of the underground stage at all. Its entirely random.
The stages aren't "lame", they're unique and, aside from personal enjoyment, can be used to give your character a slight leg-up after you've lost a match (which is the entire point of a counter-pick stage).Went to a huge tourny on Sunday, 128 entrants, $900 for first place.
It was neutrals only, and everything was fair and awesome.
I have absolutely no idea why you all want to throw lame stages into the mix
I'll agree some can be unique and fun, but I'd only want to play them at home / casually.The stages aren't "lame", they're unique and, aside from personal enjoyment, can be used to give your character a slight leg-up after you've lost a match (which is the entire point of a counter-pick stage).
Besides, the Smash competative scene already has a fairly poor image that makes others more hesitant to join it. We really don't want to make that worse...
(I'll assume you're all smart enough to figure out what's going on with anything that looks odd in this post...)
This is where you are wrong.I'll agree some can be unique and fun, but I'd only want to play them at home / casually.
To me, in a competitive environment, only the fairest stages should be allowed. Anything else detracts from the overall goal of having the results reflect skill. Instead someone may get a little farther in a tourny by gimping people on some crappy stage they spent a lot of time (t1me) practicing on. Some people consider this a legitimate strategy for tournaments, but I disagree whole heartedly. If you can't win on a neutral map you don't deserve to win in my book.
How have you won the match? You'll go into sudden death because you both have the same amount of stocks...Fine, play my Dedede with Ike on Bridge of Eldin. How's that for fair. Make 1 grab mistake, you're dead.
The point to get across is that stages are banned because they offer too great of an advantage. Would you allow Hyrule Temple? I could play fox against you (let's say for instance, Bowser). If I can shoot you with 1 laser, I've won the match. There is nothing you can do to get it back.
Read the individual character pages. Characters have begun to find ways to escape the dreaded chain-grab.Fine, play my Dedede with Ike on Bridge of Eldin. How's that for fair. Make 1 grab mistake, you're dead.
Ike is one of the characters that has the ability to jab out of it even when D3 is properly using shield-dash cancelled grabs. The point to get across is that banning stages in attempt avoid the situation of chain-grab infinites off the side of the stage, the ways to counter it may just never end up being developed, and while you're trying to prevent one character from having too much of an advantage King Dedede is using an infinite on characters other than Ike on any stage. Now what? Trying to define stages as banned because they offer "too much" of an advantage is gonna be flawed. I seriously don't think anyone should even be attempting to moderate the character balance by selectively picking what stages can and can't be played on.Fine, play my Dedede with Ike on Bridge of Eldin. How's that for fair. Make 1 grab mistake, you're dead.
The point to get across is that stages are banned because they offer too great of an advantage. Would you allow Hyrule Temple? I could play fox against you (let's say for instance, Bowser). If I can shoot you with 1 laser, I've won the match. There is nothing you can do to get it back.
There's also the favoring projectile users, the lousy aerial game and stuff...Alright, I don't feel like arguing about DDD's chaingrab right now, so I'm going to throw something out there that's completely unrelated: I think that Final Destination should be a counterpick stage!
FD noticably hinders certain character's recoveries, and that is the exact definition of counterpick. Any character who's third jump goes horizontaly will end up under the stage falling to their doom if they try to grab the ledge. Take snake, for example. His C4 moves him diaganolly. Say he gets spiked at around 70%. It isn't enough to kill him, so he jumps up and is close to the ledge, so he activates C4. FD then gimps his recovery, leaving him falling, unable to control his character. This is clearly a disadvantage to characters like snake, squirtle, and Captain falcon.
On the other hand, tether recoverers, such as ivysaur and olimar, and third jumps that go straight up, like ike and kirby, have no trouble at all with FD's brutal edges. For them, it's just like normal. We have considered changing the legality of certain stages because they disadvantage tether recoverers, and I don't see how this is any different.
1. It has 1 walk off edge that's around for at most 20 seconds. If you can't not get grabbed for 20 seconds...Lain has a point there. greater advantages. well hmmm lets see what do you think about Delfino plaza being a banned stage? there are some good reasons why it should be... well at least let it not be a counterpick at all. or nuetral.
1. Walk off stage
2. Unsensitive bottom platforms
3. availiable fly attacks from wing chars.
The thing is, that's exactly what Battlefield had and that was still Neutral. You just need t pay a bit more attention when recovering on those stages is all.Alright, I don't feel like arguing about DDD's chaingrab right now, so I'm going to throw something out there that's completely unrelated: I think that Final Destination should be a counterpick stage!
FD noticably hinders certain character's recoveries, and that is the exact definition of counterpick. Any character who's third jump goes horizontaly will end up under the stage falling to their doom if they try to grab the ledge. Take snake, for example. His C4 moves him diaganolly. Say he gets spiked at around 70%. It isn't enough to kill him, so he jumps up and is close to the ledge, so he activates C4. FD then gimps his recovery, leaving him falling, unable to control his character. This is clearly a disadvantage to characters like snake, squirtle, and Captain falcon.
On the other hand, tether recoverers, such as ivysaur and olimar, and third jumps that go straight up, like ike and kirby, have no trouble at all with FD's brutal edges. For them, it's just like normal. We have considered changing the legality of certain stages because they disadvantage tether recoverers, and I don't see how this is any different.
This list I posted earlier on, just wanted to know what people think..Neutral:
Battlefield: Flat, 3 platforms. Very basic.
Final Destination: Flat, and aside from the annoying edges similar to Battlefield in Melee, no major issues.
Yoshi's Island: Flat, moving platform. Pretty basic.
Smashville: Flat, moving platform.
Lylat Cruise: Slow moving stage, basically like Battlefield with some tilting action.
Delfino Plaza: Moves between a Battlefield like stage and a few other ordinary looking areas.
Pokemon Stadium: I see no reason to ban this stage. The windmill isn't worse than the rock formation for camping, and if you don't like it, wait a minute.. >_>
Castle Siege: Moves between 3 sections, 2 of which are very basic. The 2nd part has a walk off, but there are platforms. Potentially moved to counterpick but I'll leave it here for now.
Halberd: I'd debate putting this on the counterpick list because of the random damaging distraction, but it is very easy to avoid.
Counterpick:
Frigate Orpheon: Flips over, could offer an advantage to characters who could survive the flip (assuming they get caught by it).
Rainbow Cruise: Slow moving, could offer advantage to characters with multiple jumps and/or good air games.
Pokemon Stadium 2: Gravity and treadmills can offer advantage to some characters, pretty basic otherwise. Potentially moved to neutrals.
Distant Planet: Walk off on one side, and an easy to avoid hazard.
Brinstar: Lava offers advantage to some characters.
Hanenbow: Weird stage, can't see banning it as of now.
Green Greens: Bomb blocks and apples, otherwise basic.
Green Hill Zone: Walk off edges.
Pirate Ship: Some damaging distractions.
Onett: some damaging distractions.
PictoChat: Damaging distractions, otherwise no problems.
Port Town Aero Dive: Cars do damage, similar to Mute City from Melee.
Jungle Japes: Same as melee.
Shadow Moses Island: Not sure if the walls or walk off will prove to be a problem, making it a counterpick for now.
Skyworld: Breakable platforms, not sure if it will be a problem.
Luigi's Mansion: Stage offers some advantage against projectiles, otherwise basic.
The Summit: Kind of annoying, see no reason to ban it yet.
Banned:
Norfair: Huge lava wave can take a stock.
Mario Circuit: Walk off edges and damaging cars.
Mushroomy Kingdom: Walk off edges, side scrolling.
New Pork City: Way too big, someone can easily use a projectile and then run the whole match.
Rumble Falls: vertical scrolling, damaging distractions, walk off edges.
WarioWare, Inc.: Do I really need to explain this one?
Flat Zone 2: Damaging distractions, walk off edges.
75m: Too big, damaging distractions.
Mario Bros.: Good luck killing anyone who knows how to tech.
Spear Pillar: Damaging distractions, reverse controls.
Temple: Way too big, same problems as New Pork City and Mario Bros.
Big Blue: Movement is too fast.
Bridge of Eldin: Way too big, walk off, when there's a gap in the middle it'll just be a huge campfest.
I made more stages legal than a lot of people, mostly because I'd like to try them out in tournament to see if they'll be too much of a problem. I'd also like to eventually have a few preselected custom stages on the counterpick list.