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The point is the opponent is not better at avoiding hazards (in the scnario I'm referring to anyway), they just happened to avoid them in that particular match.
It happens quite frequently, actually. That's why I and others care.
Note that I wasn't talking about Pictochat there, I was talking about stages like Halberd and Brinstar.
This is exactly what we mean, if you can't avoid them on that certain match, then it's still your fault. Luck has nothing to do with it. Stay focused.
Brinstar's still slightly random.. if you don't have multiple jumps, the lava will be difficult to avoid at it's highest peak. Whatever then, that doesn't really affect the outcome of a match.
The laser cannot be considered a "strong" hazard because of the ease of SDI'ing out.
You can not use low-level players [especially low enough to not avoid Halberd's obstacles] as an example of why it is bad in high-level play.
While the last line is true, saying that it's unavoidable is a bit extreme. All of them have over five seconds of startup-to-hit lag. The laser draws a crosshair on the character its' targeting well in advance, stops when it's ready to fire, and is easily DI'able due to the multi-hit properties. The bomb is ridiculously easy to avoid [heck, the only times I remember it EVER hitting anyone when I played were in 4-way friendlies], is extremely slow, and is easy to predict. The grapple is probably the most notable, but, at the same time, it not only has over five seconds of start up lag while it waves around, it pauses for two seconds before it attacks. Sure, being hit into the laser or arm can kill you, but considering the enormous amount of warning time (the highest average of any legal stage), that's simply being outplayed, not luck, especially when talking about the laser.
This is very wrong.
Well proven maybe, but people can make some good guesses already on who is good here.
Then they should get better.
There are low level players who can consistently beat other low level players.
And there are some high level players that can't consistently beat other high level players at Final Destination. What is the point?
If both players are top level, stage interaction is trivial and whoever controls the aspects of a stage better is the better player. At low level play, it really doesn't matter, because if a player can't deal with straightforward attributes to a stage, then they suck and it doesn't really matter. Low level play is pretty irrelevant aswell, as no one is clamoring for 500+th best in the game, and at low levels, players inherently screw themselves over offline [online play at any level is another story that I'm not getting into] so there won't be as much consistency as you claim there is.
No, it just showed that both players must fail at the stages in question, or that they like to spam FD because it's their character's best stage.
I see you got back from 2002, how was the trip?
I doubt it. The game wasn't designed for competition.
This is a very good point, in theory. Many people ban stages in their rule-sets due to being too strong for a character, even though, as you said, it's kind of a subjective double standard to say
Another good point. Yes, all randomness can be dealt with. However, no one is good enough to react to every possibility. When there are too many variables for a player to react to, that's generally what we call "random".
Curious what you're referring to. IDC? That applies (and is banned, though we're talking about allbrawl here so eh) everywhere, thus not a good reason to ban Temple. Is there a glide thing I don't know about (I'm aware of the momentum-building trick in the lower left but it doesn't seem applicable)? Is MK faster than Sonic?
Yeah, used to be pretty common to have people posing as new players (that clearly weren't) saying stuff like this to get tourney players riled up.
Remember that "playing to win" runs strongly in the Smash community. We're competitive. Competitive is when the best player wins. If one player's trying to recover, and a Home-run Bat spawns next to the onstage player (HRB is excellent for gimping recovering players), that stock was just decided not by player skill but by a totally random item spawn. Also, back in Melee, there was a huge stink when Ken (the undisputed best at the time) lost to a random because an explosive capsule dropped in front of his smash attack, so don't say it will never happen. (Although we can turn off exploding capsules in Brawl, so while it's technically possible to create a competitive game with items, it's not very popular to do so because smashers are so used to not having them and whatnot. There's an alternative ruleset called "Item Standard Play", but I can't be bothered to go dig it up now. And I personally advocate turning food on--and a couple other things--but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.)
Not quite, DI, percent, and the variety of stages separate Smash from normal fighters even more than randomness. (Most fighting games have basically ONE stage, so even something like FD/SV/BF only is better.)
Not true. For proof, see Snake, who can generate quite powerful items at will but can't deal with efficient circle camping if the camper pays attention at all.
Over there /point
We ARE playing the original game. Remember that it gives you tons of options so that you can play how you want. We just figured out (roughly) the combination of settings that makes for the best competition as defined above.
Actually, a few tournaments do run "allbrawl" as a side event. It's popular to do for fun at larger events, but it's mainly considered just that--fun. Whereas the main event is both fun and competitive.
On that note, I'd like to apologize if I'm coming off a little snarky or condescending. I'm just in that kind of mood right now. Welcome to the boards, btw. We cool?
*shrug* Your loss. I post ~twice as much text as you do and you ignore it, it's not my problem.
Very untrue. MK is clearly the better character in this stage. He can catch up to Fox in almost all instances while circling, and he can abuse his glide to shark the entire level, over and under, as well as safely abuse the ledges in this game to run away. If he were to ever fall behind on percents, he could EASILY catch up to Fox and change that.
Stage discussion community has always had splitted opinions towards Picto.Wasn't there a talk about Pictochat? (Probably spelled it wrong?) How was that stage in terms of being acceptable?
Nice theorycrafting. My theory says that MK gets laser'd before reaching Fox.
Thanks for that. Is there a link to talking about? I mostly just want to read it. I've had my own good/bad experiences with the stage.
Except for it's not based on theory. I play MK vs Sonic/Fox frequently with my friend, and this is always the case. We even money matched under these conditions, and MK won.
^speaks many truths
