[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[drag0nscythe]

>>>The SSB4 Character Potential Tier List

>SS Tier
Not too big
Ridley

>S Tier
Absolute Locks
King K. Rool
Bowser Jr.

>A Tier
Locks
Black Shadow
Fifth Gen Pokemon
Mewtwo
Tingle

>B Tier
Great Options
New Fire Emblem Lord
Megaman
Paper Mario
Tom Nook
Starfy
Little Mac
Lip

>C Tier
Decent Options
Simon Belmont
Roy
Isaac
Diskun
Ray
Captain Syrup
Ray MK III
Dr. Mario
Kamek
Animal Crosser
Toon Zelda/Sheik
Bomberman
Samurai Goroh

>D Tier
Unlikely
Sukapon
Dixie Kong
Toad
Pichu
Vaati

>E Tier
Bad Options
Lyn
Midna/Wolf Link
Masked Boy
Black Knight

>F Tier
No Chance
Waluigi
Krystal

>G Tier
Snow cone in a blast furnace
Geno

Credits
n88_2004
Starphoenix

If I missed a character, or you feel that a certain character should be higher or lower, let me know and I may change it if you have a good argument.

I would move tingle down to c Tier and Isaac up to A tier honestly. I do not think Tingle has a lock. I do think Isaac does.

As for Wolf link, he has great potential, but it is unlikely now. He missed his chance.

I suppose you're right. The reason he's low is more because that the New FE Lord is more likely, but considering that very well may be Roy, I'll bump him up. Tingle, however, stays where he is. Maybe a bit lower, but he's the best option for a new Zelda rep, which we need, and a joke character, which is a staple of fighting games.

Zelda has the main characters it needs. Do we really need to boggle it down with other characters just to fill a series quota? We have the triforce trio and Toon Link. That is enough unless we get transformations (Ganon or Wolf Link). Tingle just seems like a stretch or a grasp character. It does not seem natural to me.

"We need a new zelda rep. Lets dig for one."

As for a joke character, I hope you mean funny and not lame or poor like Dan. Stafy would fit that bill perfectly. Look at his AT. He could be quite humorous.

 

[SirKibble]

That list looks heavily influenced by personal opinion. To place Ridley alone in his own "tier" is only the start of my concern. The fact that characters like Tom Nook and Starfy are above the likes of Isaac and Ray is absurd, given the sheer nature of the characters. Sakurai has states his distaste for Animal Crossing characters as playables, and went as far as to joke on the Dojo, "Stafy, why did you even come here?" whereas Isaac and Ray would be representatives from unrepped, but popular series that have clear potential as fighters. And much as I don't like her, Krystal's chances are lightyears above Waluigi's.

 

[Wizzerd]

I think that Tom Nook and Isaac should switch spots.

1. Because from other threads that I've visited, Isaac places higher in popularity.
2. Isaac has much better potential for a decent moveset.
3. Isaac seems more logical seeing as he can actually fight in his game, not just run a store.

Buttttttt....Aside from that, I like the list.
Especially since Starfy is on the B tier. ^.^

I placed Tom Nook over Isaac since he's more recent, and he has more games. I honestly don't think it matters how well a character could fight- do you really think you could have thought of a moveset for ROB before Brawl? All it takes is a little creativity. He could use tools for the specials, and attack with merchandise and other Animal Crossing implements. Maybe it could seem forced, but Animal Crossing deserves representation. Isaac is very deserving, however.

I would move tingle down to c Tier and Isaac up to A tier honestly. I do not think Tingle has a lock. I do think Isaac does.

Isaac has two games. Tingle has two games. Both are popular. Both have significance. However, Tingle's games are more recent.

As for Wolf link, he has great potential, but it is unlikely now. He missed his chance.

I agree.

Zelda has the main characters it needs. Do we really need to boggle it down with other characters just to fill a series quota? We have the triforce trio and Toon Link. That is enough unless we get transformations (Ganon or Wolf Link). Tingle just seems like a stretch or a grasp character. It does not seem natural to me.

"We need a new zelda rep. Lets dig for one."

Tingle would not be digging for a rep at all, considering that A)he has games of his own and B)he's popular in Japan. No matter how much America dislikes him, I doubt that America can trump Japan to Nintendo. Also, what is a "grasp" character? And since when does Smash need to seem natural?

As for a joke character, I hope you mean funny and not lame or poor like Dan. Stafy would fit that bill perfectly. Look at his AT. He could be quite humorous.

In fact, I mean the former. Joke characters are a staple in fighting games.

That list looks heavily influenced by personal opinion. To place Ridley alone in his own "tier" is only the start of my concern. The fact that characters like Tom Nook and Starfy are above the likes of Isaac and Ray is absurd, given the sheer nature of the characters. Sakurai has states his distaste for Animal Crossing characters as playables, and went as far as to joke on the Dojo, "Stafy, why did you even come here?" whereas Isaac and Ray would be representatives from unrepped, but popular series that have clear potential as fighters. And much as I don't like her, Krystal's chances are lightyears above Waluigi's.

...You're right. It's very much a hoped-for tier list more then a likelihood tier list. In fact, maybe people can post their own. Maybe, for Sakurai, you're right: Isaac/Ray are more likely then Tom Nook/Starfy, but it's again an opinion. Perhaps it should have been

SS Tier:
Kirby characters
Tripping
Recovering
Landmasters

G Tier:
Wavedashing
L-Cancelling

 

[Mythic02]

I feel like an outcast whenever we talk about waluigi. I think I'm the only one here that supports him. Where is the rest of the fanbase? Seriously, he was made it into assist trophy status. That's better than 2/3 of the characters there.

I agree that with Sir Kibble on how this is supported by personal opinion. Diskun being C tier? YOu put Ray MK III under him. Thats really dumb. Ray was at least considered then made an AT. I also disagree with the placement of Animal Crosser.

 

[rockem7]

Well you could at least place Isaac in the B tier, instead of moving someone down.
I just think that he has a markable chance of making it in, more deserving than that of the C tier.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Isaac has two games. Tingle has two games. Both are popular. Both have significance. However, Tingle's games are more recent.

Tingle would be Zelda, not Tingle. In the grand scheme of things, his games are not that important. It is a balloon fighter rip off and one I do not know much about. Golden Sun is more acclaimed, popular and heard of.

Isaac has more of a chance than Tingle.

Tingle would not be digging for a rep at all, considering that A)he has games of his own and B)he's popular in Japan. No matter how much America dislikes him, I doubt that America can trump Japan to Nintendo. Also, what is a "grasp" character? And since when does Smash need to seem natural?

A)he has games of his own and - Which does not really matter. Stafy has his own game, and you dumped him down there. It is digging as far as zelda goes because when someone says "Who do you think of when you see Legend of Zelda" it is usually the big three. Past that, it is digging.

B)he's popular in Japan. No matter how much America dislikes him, I doubt that America can trump Japan to Nintendo. - I am getting sick of this trump card. I guess this justifies everything in the long run. Just use Japan. I know, if japan had a game where Wario ate poor baby kittens, it would be okay for Smash. Everyone else is repulsed, but Japan is okay.

Also, what is a "grasp" character? And since when does Smash need to seem natural? - I will give this slightly, but when thinking of new reps, it should be more natural than digging. I want Waddle Dee playable from Kirby. It is a grasp.

In fact, I mean the former. Joke characters are a staple in fighting games.

Stafy then. End of story.

 

[Starphoenix]

BTW, where is Saki? I think he has a good chance for the next Smash. Considering he is an AT already, his game has been released on the VC, and we have Sin and Punishment 2 coming eventually. I think he might be a good character worth having around the C tier.

 

[sundayseclipse]

i think tingle would ruin balloon fighter boys chances. i dont think wolf link messed his chance. also tingles 2 game was a club nintendo game, dousnt give nintendo much profit.skull kid almost made it to ssbb .i think they were done with 3-d programing with LOZ. also twilight princess was best stand alone sells game. the price has not been cut and if it has its not gone lower then 40 bucks so thus raising Wolf LInk higher
some characters should be raised like krystal and waluigi.

hmm when ssb4 comes out it will be for the next consule right? if there was a wat to send your wii, memory to it and have it contreact like ds and gba douse. this would be handy becase you can swap characters,music stagesthat were cut from ssbb to ssb4, and if possible melee. you see were im going with this right

 

[Wizzerd]

Disregard this post.

 

[drag0nscythe]

The tier list is gone. It was really biased and not accurate. Please forget it existed.

No, it was a very good idea and it was constructed well. It stirred debate and interest. I applaud you for doing it. You should bring it back. Once everyone argues about it enough, it will form into a list everyone can marginally agree with.

As I said, I applaud you for posting it.

 

[Wizzerd]

No, it was a very good idea and it was constructed well. It stirred debate and interest. I applaud you for doing it. You should bring it back. Once everyone argues about it enough, it will form into a list everyone can marginally agree with.

As I said, I applaud you for posting it.

Thanks, and I guess I should put it out there. Any more suggestions?

 

[Mythic02]

Seriously move Diskun Down. The only reason people think he stands a chance is because of R.O.B.
ROB had more of a chance. He was someone nintendo tried reviving in Mario Kart DS. Even then ROB was an extremely out their character. I think the big reason was to have him in SSE. Diskun deserves D tier at best.

 

[Wizzerd]

Seriously move Diskun Down. The only reason people think he stands a chance is because of R.O.B.
ROB had more of a chance. He was someone nintendo tried reviving in Mario Kart DS. Even then ROB was an extremely out their character. I think the big reason was to have him in SSE. Diskun deserves D tier at best.

In my opinion Diskun is a better option because he hasn't been revived. It keeps him as a shock character, whereas ROB was foreshadowed by being revived in Mario Kart DS (although he was still a shock- nobody expects Baby Daisy in SSB4 because she was in MKDS.)

 

[drag0nscythe]

In my opinion Diskun is a better option because he hasn't been revived. It keeps him as a shock character, whereas ROB was foreshadowed by being revived in Mario Kart DS (although he was still a shock- nobody expects Baby Daisy in SSB4 because she was in MKDS.)

I agree with you. I think Diskun should stay where he is.

 

[Heartz♥]

To put an end to the Tingle vs Isaac argument, Tingle has NO battle prowess whatsoever. He is known for flying with balloons and passing out maps. How does he even stand a chance of being a "fighter"? He is a coward that loves peace. Brawl would ruin Tingle. I like him as an NPC. His job isn't to fight; he has no reason to.

Look back at every character that was playable in the Smash series. Every single one of them have a fighting spirit. Tingle's AT isn't even an attack. He is too light-hearted to be a Smash fighter. Tingle is just a supporting video game character.

I am starting to believe that people want Tingle in for personal tastes. No offense.

 

[rockem7]

Thus was my arguement about Tom Nook/Animal Crosser. >.>

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

To put an end to the Tingle vs Isaac argument, Tingle has NO battle prowess whatsoever. He is known for flying with balloons and passing out maps. How does he even stand a chance of being a "fighter"? He is a coward that loves peace. Brawl would ruin Tingle. I like him as an NPC. His job isn't to fight; he has no reason to.

Look back at every character that was playable in the Smash series. Every single one of them have a fighting spirit. Tingle's AT isn't even an attack. He is too light-hearted to be a Smash fighter. Tingle is just a supporting video game character.

I am starting to believe that people want Tingle in for personal tastes. No offense.

Didn't ROB's game consist of stacking blocks? That doesn't really seem like "fighting spirit" to me....

Spoiler

unless you mean the daily strugggle he had with his batteries...

 

[Red Arremer]

Peach never fights, all she does is getting kidnapped. <- Correction - since Peach was fighting in one single game prior to her inclusion in Smash, she is fighting all the time, since she is never ever kidnapped in the rest of the games featuring her.

But:
Zelda never fights, all she does is getting kidnapped.
Sheik never fights, all she does is teach Link songs.
R.O.B. never fights, all he does is spinning gyros and stacking blocks.
Olimar never fights, all he does is command Pikmin to carry stuff.
Mr. Game & Watch never fights, all he does is doing some random stuff such as catching people with trampolines or tossing pancakes out of a pan.

Let's cut all of them.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

Peach never fights, all she does is getting kidnapped.
Zelda never fights, see above.
Sheik never fights, all she does is teach Link songs.
R.O.B. never fights, all he does is spinning gyros and stacking blocks.
Olimar never fights, all he does is command Pikmin to carry stuff.
Mr. Game & Watch never fights, all he does is doing some random stuff such as catching people with trampolines or tossing pancakes out of a pan.

Let's cut all of them.

Peach has fought in Super Mario RPG and Super Princess Peach, but otherwise you're right, there's several characters who never actually fought in their games.

Pikmin without Olimar for SSB4! Actually, I wanna see how that would work, lol

 

[Red Arremer]

Super Mario RPG is a 3rd-party game and thus should not be used as an example.
Super Princess Peach was released after Melee.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

Super Mario RPG is a 3rd-party game and thus should not be used as an example.
Super Princess Peach was released after Melee.

So then Peach is now valid for Brawl with Super Princess Peach, therefore there's still no reason to cut her anymore.

Oh, and she fought in Super Mario Bros 2 as well. =P

 

[Red Arremer]

Then why doesn't she use what she does in Super Princess Peach, as in Perry and the emotion stuff, if she's based on SMB2 and SPP?

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

Then why doesn't she use what she does in Super Princess Peach, as in Perry and the emotion stuff, if she's based on SMB2 and SPP?

Turnip toss is obviously derived from SMB2.

Her weapon in Super Princess Peach was a parosol. Her up special, while not the ecact same one, is also a parosol.

 

[Red Arremer]

Yes, but I didn't mention the parts of Super Mario Bros 2, but the parts of Super Princess Peach, right?
Peach used the parasol already in Melee. If the move was supposed to lead to Super Princess Peach, she would have to use Perry, not a random umbrella. Therefore, it's not a link to Super Princess Peach.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

Yes, but I didn't mention the parts of Super Mario Bros 2, but the parts of Super Princess Peach, right?
Peach used the parasol already in Melee. If the move was supposed to lead to Super Princess Peach, she would have to use Perry, not a random umbrella. Therefore, it's not a link to Super Princess Peach.

Okay, maybe she doesn't have an exact link to Super Princess Peach.

However, you DO agree that she has a connection to SMB2, a game she has fought in. And my entire point was that she does in fact have a game she fought in. I just picked a not-as-good example at the start.

 

[Red Arremer]

*shrugs* They just didn't have another character to fit in the fourth slot of Doki Doki Panic's characters.

One exception doesn't make Peach a warrior, either.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

*shrugs* They just didn't have another character to fit in the fourth slot of Doki Doki Panic's characters.

One exception doesn't make Peach a warrior, either.

It still doesn't change the fact that Peach has fought in a game.

I never claimed Peach was a warrior, all I did was show that Peach has fought in a game.

 

[Red Arremer]

And got kidnapped again in the sequel and every other game following up until Super Princess Peach, and then she got kidnapped again in that game's sequel until now.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

And got kidnapped again in the sequel and every other game following up until Super Princess Peach, and then she got kidnapped again it that game's sequel until now.

What part of "All I did was show that Peach has fought in a game" is so hard to understand?

You claimed Peach never fought, I've brought up game(s) were did in fact fight. That's ALL I did.

 

[Wizzerd]

Peach also fought in SPM, and also in PM: TTYD.

Spoiler

Although that doesn't really count because she was possessed by the Shadow Queen.

But really, whether or not Peach fights, the bottom line is that Smash takes characters who don't fight, and makes them fight. The whole point of Smash is that it isn't canonical at all.

 

[SmashChu]

Super Mario RPG is a 3rd-party game and thus should not be used as an example.
Super Princess Peach was released after Melee.

Sorry, but facepalm. You can't exclude it because the game was made by a third party (Nintendo still has publishing right over it I think). Besides, where do you think her frying pan came from? Or her standard jab combo?

 

[Nishin]

I'd like to see all the characters ever included in a Smash Bros. game (so essentially, stick Melee and Brawl's character roster together, and you're on for a winner).
With some added.
Same deal with the stages, too (I want mah Fountain of Dreams).

Also, Mario needs his Down-B tornado back.

 

[drag0nscythe]

Peachs moveset is based on many of the spin off games.

A golf club
A tennis Racket
A frying pan

and a bunch of ninja moves that everyone seemed to inherit.
She was playable in SMB2 and that is probably where Sakurai got his inspiration.

She is more important than Tingle to her respective series, she is known for having fought at least before. She fit.

Tingle is best suited for AT status. That is where he should be.

And Olimar does fight, he has a really weak punch in Pikmin.

 

[Big-Cat]

B)he's popular in Japan. No matter how much America dislikes him, I doubt that America can trump Japan to Nintendo. - I am getting sick of this trump card. I guess this justifies everything in the long run. Just use Japan. I know, if japan had a game where Wario ate poor baby kittens, it would be okay for Smash. Everyone else is repulsed, but Japan is okay.

I, too, am sick of the Japan card. Besides, if I recall, the world outside of Japan definitely had an influence on Twilight Princess. It was because of everyone else's hatred of Tingle caused him to not be included in that game.

I still find the whole Krystal hate to be rather annoying around here. I remember when Brawl was announced, she was considered a shoo-in. Now, it's the exact opposite. The only argument that is justifying to me for believing she has low chances is because of Wolf. The weakest around here is because she can be considered furry bait, but it's not like Wolf is any better. With three shotos- I mean- space anthros already in the game. Many consider that Starfox has too many characters. For all we know, Wolf may become an alt. for Fox and Krystal takes his place.

After all, it seems that characters that are unlockable are the ones at risk for removal moreso than anyone else, save Luigi and Jigglypuff. Therefore, it's quite possible that Wolf will get cut.

 

[drag0nscythe]

I, too, am sick of the Japan card. Besides, if I recall, the world outside of Japan definitely had an influence on Twilight Princess. It was because of everyone else's hatred of Tingle caused him to not be included in that game.

I still find the whole Krystal hate to be rather annoying around here. I remember when Brawl was announced, she was considered a shoo-in. Now, it's the exact opposite. The only argument that is justifying to me for believing she has low chances is because of Wolf. The weakest around here is because she can be considered furry bait, but it's not like Wolf is any better. With three shotos- I mean- space anthros already in the game. Many consider that Starfox has too many characters. For all we know, Wolf may become an alt. for Fox and Krystal takes his place.

After all, it seems that characters that are unlockable are the ones at risk for removal moreso than anyone else, save Luigi and Jigglypuff. Therefore, it's quite possible that Wolf will get cut.

and you are right with the annoying Krystal hate. I mainly see it because we already have 3 starfox characters. (even though they are all based on each other and are about as original as most new TV shows.) There is a possibility he could be cut. I see Wolf as a last minute character (which is why he is not in the story.)

They just cloned Foxes B moves, tweaked them alittle to be slightly different. (Fast blaster-> Slow Blaster) and then they spent alittle time on his A moves (which are not that hard anyway. Once you get a stance, those fall into place.)

That is how I see him. Almost Roy Material.

 

[DekuBoy]

I love me Wolf. But after StarFox Assault it's bullcrap that he's a clone when there were shiny new weapons...

 

[Wizzerd]

I'd like to point out that it's only America who hates Tingle. Not only Japan, but Europe, Australia, et cetera are fine with him. Maybe Japan cannot trump America, but I'd say that Japan, Europe, Australia and wherever else Rosy Rupeeland was released and people are fine with him can trump America.

Wolf's moveset, aside from specials, is really fine. In fact, his only moves which are clones of the other Space Animals are his Neutral B and his Side B, which is quite different. I would like to see him with better B moves, but his A moves are honestly quite unique.

Oh, and the reason Krystal is hated on is because she's nowhere near as significant as Falco and Wolf, she's generally agreed to have ruined the franchise and she gets support because of her anatomy.

 

[drag0nscythe]

I'd like to point out that it's only America who hates Tingle. Not only Japan, but Europe, Australia, et cetera are fine with him. Maybe Japan cannot trump America, but I'd say that Japan, Europe, Australia and wherever else Rosy Rupeeland was released and people are fine with him can trump America.

Wolf's moveset, aside from specials, is really fine. In fact, his only moves which are clones of the other Space Animals are his Neutral B and his Side B, which is quite different. I would like to see him with better B moves, but his A moves are honestly quite unique.

Oh, and the reason Krystal is hated on is because she's nowhere near as significant as Falco and Wolf, and she gets support because of her anatomy.

Like KumaOso said, the world had an influence on his inclusion in TP. Just because the world got his game does not mean that they like him.

As for wolf. A his B moves were derived from Fox.

B: Blaster, they just made his slower.
Forward B, The dash move, they added an angle to it.
Up B, instead of Fire, they made it wind.
Down B, instead of a blue shield, it is pink.

All his B moves and his FS come from fox. As for A, they really don't matter in the long run. As I said, they are just based on his stance they made for him, which is not that hard.

 

[Red Arremer]

All his B moves and his FS come from fox. As for A, they really don't matter in the long run. As I said, they are just based on his stance they made for him, which is not that hard.

If only B moves matter... I want to see you winning a tournament only with B moves, kid.

This logic also makes Samus a Link clone, just so you know.

 

[drag0nscythe]

If only B moves matter... I want to see you winning a tournament only with B moves, kid.

This logic also makes Samus a Link clone, just so you know.

No, you failed to see the point of the statement. When we got updates for brawl, what was always given? When someone asks you what kind of moves a character has, what kind of moves are mentioned?

B moves.

It is like street fighter. People only care about special and super moves. Who cares that they have a punch, or a kick. All fighters have those.

That was the point of the statement. Not that A should not be used or that it is in the game.