[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Wizzerd]

Like KumaOso said, the world had an influence on his inclusion in TP. Just because the world got his game does not mean that they like him.

No, not necessarily, but Rosy Rupeeland sold decently in the rest of the world. If the rest of the world hates him, then they wouldn't have bought the game, would they?

As for wolf. A his B moves were derived from Fox.

B: Blaster, they just made his slower.
Forward B, The dash move, they added an angle to it.
Up B, instead of Fire, they made it wind.
Down B, instead of a blue shield, it is pink.

I'll give you the B, but the Side B was only moderately cloned, because of the angle and the meteor smash. The Up B was a third, angleable midair jump- how many of those do we have? So are Lucario, Pikachu and the Ice Climbers clones now too? The Down B was very different because of the countering effect. All of them are based off of Fox, but they have their own unique effects.

All his B moves and his FS come from fox. As for A, they really don't matter in the long run. As I said, they are just based on his stance they made for him, which is not that hard.

Yes, they do. They matter very much. A moves can be quite definitive of a character as well.

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

No, you failed to see the point of the statement. When we got updates for brawl, what was always given? When someone asks you what kind of moves a character has, what kind of moves are mentioned?

B moves.

It is like street fighter. People only care about special and super moves. Who cares that they have a punch, or a kick. All fighters have those.

That was the point of the statement. Not that A should not be used or that it is in the game.

I care about what the "non-special" moves are for characters in fighting games. It's fun for me to imagine what a character's fighting style might be. And now that we have Snake in the roster, A moves have been shown to be capable of being unique and interesting moves.

Just because people don't talk about them as much does not change the fact that they are a part of a character's move set.

 

[SMAAAASH!]

Why discuss something that will never happen?

Besides, the game won't be made to the standards this board asks of it.

 

[Red Arremer]

Still, just because a character has similar B moves, it doesn't make them complete clones.

Again, if you say Wolf's tweaked B moves are making him a clone, you're saying that Samus is a clone of Link.

 

[SMAAAASH!]

The only "clones" of the game were back in Melee.

There are absolutely no clones in Brawl.

 

[Melfice z]

something that would never happen? how about seeing Jack from madworld in ssb4! ^.^

 

[SMAAAASH!]

Wrong. The only mature character who will make it on a SSB4 would be Ryu Hayabusa. =P

 

[Heartz♥]

Peach never fights, all she does is getting kidnapped. <- Correction - since Peach was fighting in one single game prior to her inclusion in Smash, she is fighting all the time, since she is never ever kidnapped in the rest of the games featuring her.

But:
Zelda never fights, all she does is getting kidnapped.
Sheik never fights, all she does is teach Link songs.
R.O.B. never fights, all he does is spinning gyros and stacking blocks.
Olimar never fights, all he does is command Pikmin to carry stuff.
Mr. Game & Watch never fights, all he does is doing some random stuff such as catching people with trampolines or tossing pancakes out of a pan.

Let's cut all of them.

These characters are suited for battle regardless of what they did in their games. I should have clarified these things:

Zelda is a mage, and helped Link defeat Ganondorf two times.
Shiek is a ninja. I mean, a ninja.
R.O.B. is a robot. Robots have lasers and jets. Yet I still didn't think him worthy of being in Brawl.
Olimar has Pikmin. That's it. He doesn't really fight in Brawl, at least he barely does.
G&W can do anything, so a battle prowess can be made out of randomness.

But Tingle...

He is 35 and still single.
Thinks he is a fairy.
Sells Link maps.
Flies on large ballons.

I can't really see any fight being made out of this.

 

[SMAAAASH!]

Tingle covered wars. Wth are you talking about?

 

[Heartz♥]

Wth are you talking about?

Allow me to ask you the same question, sir.

 

[Nishin]

I'd like to point out that it's only America who hates Tingle. Not only Japan, but Europe, Australia, et cetera are fine with him. Maybe Japan cannot trump America, but I'd say that Japan, Europe, Australia and wherever else Rosy Rupeeland was released and people are fine with him can trump America.

Tingle's a waste of space.

 

[Wizzerd]

Tingle's a waste of space.

Fine, but Europe doesn't have nearly as much hatred of Tingle as America. You called him a waste of space, not the ruin of the Zelda series.

These characters are suited for battle regardless of what they did in their games. I should have clarified these things:

Zelda is a mage, and helped Link defeat Ganondorf two times.
Shiek is a ninja. I mean, a ninja.
R.O.B. is a robot. Robots have lasers and jets. Yet I still didn't think him worthy of being in Brawl.
Olimar has Pikmin. That's it. He doesn't really fight in Brawl, at least he barely does.
G&W can do anything, so a battle prowess can be made out of randomness.

But Tingle...

He is 35 and still single.
Thinks he is a fairy.
Sells Link maps.
Flies on large ballons.

I can't really see any fight being made out of this.

Tingle fought plenty in Rosy Rupeeland and Tingle's Balloon Fight.

 

[Heartz♥]

Tingle's a waste of space.

lol.

I don't HATE Tingle. I just see better candidates for Zelda, such as Vaati, Impa, or Zant. And don't start on the Impa debate. She is in the same shoes as Shiek. lol

 

[Wizzerd]

lol.

I don't HATE Tingle. I just see better candidates for Zelda, such as Vaati, Impa, or Zant. And don't start on the Impa debate. She is in the same shoes as Shiek. lol

Vaati's games were some of the worst-selling in the series, and he isn't a definitive Zelda villian like Ganondorf. Impa, fine, but Tingle has been in around the same number of games and he's been playable. Zant, what the hell? He's a one-shot character who will never appear again, and by SSB4 a new Zelda will probably be out- will be out, because of Spirit Tracks.

No matter what, people refuse to recognize that Tingle can fight and that being able to fight doesn't matter at all in Smash.

 

[SMAAAASH!]

Allow me to ask you the same question, sir.

He was an accomplice to help aid Link in his quest of slapping around Ganondorf.

Without Tingle, Link would totally get lost and end up in Detroit.

Ganon's not in Detroit. He's in Hyrule.

GG Tingle; GG.

 

[Nishin]

Fine, but Europe doesn't have nearly as much hatred of Tingle as America. You called him a waste of space, not the ruin of the Zelda series.

No, the Temple of the Ocean King is the (one of, anyway) ruin of (rethinks) Phantom Hourglass.
Y'know what? I agree.

Why the hell did he get his own games anyway?
Because Japan likes him.
Revised: Why did we have to suffer them!?

 

[SMAAAASH!]

How can one suffer a video game...if they are not forced to play it?

 

[Heartz♥]

Vaati's games were some of the worst-selling in the series, and he isn't a definitive Zelda villian like Ganondorf. Impa, fine, but Tingle has been in around the same number of games and he's been playable. Zant, what the hell? He's a one-shot character who will never appear again, and by SSB4 a new Zelda will probably be out- will be out, because of Spirit Tracks.

No matter what, people refuse to recognize that Tingle can fight and that being able to fight doesn't matter at all in Smash.

Notice I said "or". I just put Zant on that short list for the hell of it.

You just have to understand that Smash will completely ruin what Tingle is. He is known as a peaceful, cowardly fairy-wannabe. Making him violent isn't doing anything good for his character at all. He is known for being supportive and resourceful. Even if Tingle was considered, what would his playstyle even BE like? We already have goofy, clumsy fighters like Wario and Mr. Game and Watch.

 

[drag0nscythe]

No, not necessarily, but Rosy Rupeeland sold decently in the rest of the world. If the rest of the world hates him, then they wouldn't have bought the game, would they?

Depends. I know some people who will buy anything made from Square Enix just because it was made from Square Enix. Still, I can see I am on a losing battle here. I still think his chances are nil.

I'll give you the B, but the Side B was only moderately cloned, because of the angle and the meteor smash. The Up B was a third, angleable midair jump- how many of those do we have? So are Lucario, Pikachu and the Ice Climbers clones now too? The Down B was very different because of the countering effect. All of them are based off of Fox, but they have their own unique effects.

I thought that is what I kept saying?
Wolf is based on fox.

Still, just because a character has similar B moves, it doesn't make them complete clones.

Again, if you say Wolf's tweaked B moves are making him a clone, you're saying that Samus is a clone of Link.

I am not saying they are complete clones. I am saying Wolf is based on Fox. Which is true. Why else would his B moves be so similar to Fox.

The only "clones" of the game were back in Melee.
There are absolutely no clones in Brawl.

Toon Link.

Yes, they do. They matter very much. A moves can be quite definitive of a character as well.

I care about what the "non-special" moves are for characters in fighting games. It's fun for me to imagine what a character's fighting style might be. And now that we have Snake in the roster, A moves have been shown to be capable of being unique and interesting moves.

Just because people don't talk about them as much does not change the fact that they are a part of a character's move set.

Not as much as everyone wants. While they are important, not everyone cares how someone punches a person. If the A moves are truely different (Snake) then maybe they will get a mention, but most people only want to know the specials.

Notice I said "or". I just put Zant on that short list for the hell of it.

You just have to understand that Smash will completely ruin what Tingle is. He is known as a peaceful, cowardly fairy-wannabe. Making him violent isn't doing anything good for his character at all. He is known for being supportive and resourceful. Even if Tingle was considered, what would his playstyle even BE like? We already have goofy, clumsy fighters like Wario and Mr. Game and Watch.

I am sorry, but this is not a good argument against Tingle. Many have said that Ridley is supposed to be the uber powerful. very fast, hard to beat boss from Metroid. To make him playable means to dumb down some of his stats. Many have noted that it would ruin his character.

for that fact, I have to accept that Tingle can be made playable, but I think it is unlikely because he is best suited for AT status. That is personal opinion though because many others think Ridley is best suited for boss.

 

[SMAAAASH!]

@Drag0n: Some clone. Waist high, cel-shaded, looks nothing like him, is a completely different person...

 

[drag0nscythe]

@Drag0n: Some clone. Waist high, cel-shaded, looks nothing like him, is a completely different person...

Young link.

Not same height as Link.
Different taunts.

Yup.

 

[Wizzerd]

Notice I said "or". I just put Zant on that short list for the hell of it.

You just have to understand that Smash will completely ruin what Tingle is. He is known as a peaceful, cowardly fairy-wannabe. Making him violent isn't doing anything good for his character at all. He is known for being supportive and resourceful. Even if Tingle was considered, what would his playstyle even BE like? We already have goofy, clumsy fighters like Wario and Mr. Game and Watch.

Yeah, and Rosy Rupeeland didn't shatter that already? The whole point of Smash is that it isn't canon and that characters fight who didn't fight before. It's about Nintendo's universes colliding, and seeing your favorite Nintendo/third party characters fight, not about being true to character.

 

[Heartz♥]

Many have said that Ridley is supposed to be the uber powerful. very fast, hard to beat boss from Metroid. To make him playable means to dumb down some of his stats. Many have noted that it would ruin his character.

No offense, but this really doesn't prove anything. The whole "watering down" characterization is just an argument of the past. Same was said about Ganondorf. He is a swordsman, and never once uses his sword in Smash.

I am not talking about ruining a character as far as battle prowess (sorry for overusing this lol). I am more talking about as far as disposition and personality. All characters in Smash are true to their persona, and if that isn't true, then only a few aren't. I don't know much about Ike or Marth, so feel free to correct me.

 

[drag0nscythe]

No offense, but this really doesn't prove anything. The whole "watering down" characterization is just an argument of the past. Same was said about Ganondorf. He is a swordsman, and never once uses his sword in Smash.

I am not talking about ruining a character as far as battle prowess (sorry for overusing this lol). I am more talking about as far as disposition and personality. All characters in Smash are true to their persona, and if that isn't true, then only a few aren't. I don't know much about Ike or Marth, so feel free to correct me.

Are you trying to establish the Animal Crosser testimony?
That is what Sakurai used to not have Animal Crossing characters playable.

 

[Red Arremer]

Mr. Game & Watch fights in a very unusual way, as well. He stabs with keys, throws sausage out of his frying pan and abuses his pet turtle. I wouldn't call that to be a usual fighter. And Tingle could have such a freaky moveset, too.

 

[Wizzerd]

No offense, but this really doesn't prove anything. The whole "watering down" characterization is just an argument of the past. Same was said about Ganondorf. He is a swordsman, and never once uses his sword in Smash.

I am not talking about ruining a character as far as battle prowess (sorry for overusing this lol). I am more talking about as far as disposition and personality. All characters in Smash are true to their persona, and if that isn't true, then only a few aren't. I don't know much about Ike or Marth, so feel free to correct me.

And that was why Brawl's roster was so terrible. There were so many deserving characters like Ridley, Starfy and Tom Nook/Animal Crosser who weren't even considered, just because they might not fit in perfectly. Even if Starfy or Tom Nook/Animal Crosser didn't deserve it, you have to agree that it doesn't make sense to brush off popular and deserving characters like that.

Mr. Game & Watch fights in a very unusual way, as well. He stabs with keys, throws sausage out of his frying pan and abuses his pet turtle. I wouldn't call that to be a usual fighter. And Tingle could have such a freaky moveset, too.

I really want to finish my MYM Tingle moveset quickly to prove this, and in fact I'm having no problem coming up with unique attacks using things like Kinstones that fit his character.

 

[Heartz♥]

Are you trying to establish the Animal Crosser testimony?
That is what Sakurai used to not have Animal Crossing characters playable.

Mr. Game & Watch fights in a very unusual way, as well. He stabs with keys, throws sausage out of his frying pan and abuses his pet turtle. I wouldn't call that to be a usual fighter. And Tingle could have such a freaky moveset, too.

And that was why Brawl's roster was so terrible. There were so many deserving characters like Ridley, Starfy and Tom Nook/Animal Crosser who weren't even considered, just because they might not fit in perfectly.

****. I'm under attack. lololol

@DS: Animal Crossing should be included in SSB4 the way it has in Brawl, in my honest opinion.

@Spadefox: So perhaps Tingle should fight with maps, a clipboard, balloons, and Kooloo Limpahs? That would be just as random as G&W, which pretty much means lack of originality. Quit sandbagging and give me all you got, Joel. xDDD

@Wizzerd: I believe that Ridley wasn't included in the roster mainly because they wanted to present him in an awesome boss battle for Subspace Emissary. I assume that SSE was a test to see if it would be that great, but it wasn't. So I can expect a watered-down Adventure/Story Mode in SSB4.

Ridley's size means absolutely nothing to me. Take the opening of Melee. He was randomly made the same size of Samus, and for what reason? Why was Ridley even IN the Melee opening in the FIRST place? Foreshadowing? Who knows? -_-

 

[Red Arremer]

@Spadefox: So perhaps Tingle should fight with maps, a clipboard, balloons, and Kooloo Limpahs? That would be just as random as G&W, which pretty much means lack of originality. Quit sandbagging and give me all you got, Joel. xDDD

Yes. And I personally find Mr. Game & Watch being one of the most original movesets in the game - if not THE most original - simply for the fact he's so random, yet NEVER uses anything he hasn't done in a game (except for jumping, ducking and that). Which is pretty much awesome, in my opinion.

And yes. Fighting with maps, balloons and Kooloo Limpah's would be kickass.

Also, if you wanna have a beating, maybe we can Brawl tomorrow or sometime lawls.

 

[Heartz♥]

Yes. And I personally find Mr. Game & Watch being one of the most original movesets in the game - if not THE most original - simply for the fact he's so random, yet NEVER uses anything he hasn't done in a game (except for jumping, ducking and that). Which is pretty much awesome, in my opinion.

And yes. Fighting with maps, balloons and Kooloo Limpah's would be kickass.

Also, if you wanna have a beating, maybe we can Brawl tomorrow or sometime lawls.

I sense a "Tingle Should Be Banned" Social Group. lololol

 

[Red Arremer]

Tingle for SSB4 Top Tier.

 

[Wizzerd]

Tingle for SSB4 Top Tier.

I sign. Tingle is bad*ss, and he's the only Zelda rep who really needs to be in.

Also, we need a Tingle for SSB4 social group.

 

[rockem7]

I honestly don't care if Tingle makes it in, unless he takes the spot a more deserving character.

 

[Starphoenix]

Man, I am gone for a day and when I come back there are already 5 pages I missed!? Not to mention the legendary Spadefox shows up after I leave. lol

Anyways, onto the debates preceeding:

Tingle could have a moveset created, after Ivysaur and Olimar ANYONE could be given a moveset. Thing is I hate him, pure and simple.

Wolf definetely is not a clone of Fox, there are no clones in Brawl. Contrary to opinion even Toon Link isn't much of a clone as he is perceived to be. Or as much of a clone as Young Link.

Peach had very little fighting experience prior to Brawl, Super Mario RPG is a valid game to use, Peach uses several moves from that game. Mainly her AA tap and Pan Forward Smash, we also have SMB2 and the turnips. Outside of that she has played the sereotypical helpless princess.

 

[Mythic02]

First of all, I hate tingle. But I kind of agree with ROckem7. Why should someone take the place of a more deserving character. Personally I'd be ok with 2 more LoZ characters. Tingle and Vaati. Vaati may not be in the best of games, but he's the next most important character since he's a secondary villain.

As for clones, Wolf is similar to fox. They aren't exactley the same, but you can tell Wolf was based off of Fox's moveset. I will say he is a luigified clone. You have to agree with that because the definition of a luigified clone is really if they have similar B moves and a few other moves Similar.

The most cloned character to the least cloned.
Toon Link (He is just faster, without any wind in his boomerang)
Ganon (Like toon link, but at least he's in a different series.)
Falco ( Though he is on his way to be luigified, he's still pretty cloney)
Wolf (Similar B moves)
Luigi ( Only 2 similar B moves)

But I am now ok with clones, because they give us someone new to play, without adding extra time to a wait. If we could have 50 completely original characters or 60 characters with 15 being clones, I would go for 60.

 

[Red Arremer]

Not to mention the legendary Spadefox shows up after I leave. lol

Legendary? Wow. I never knew I was already a legend around these parts of the board. O-o

 

[drag0nscythe]

Tingle for SSB4 Top Tier.

I disagree.

Tingle for AT is more like it.
He is not guaranteed to be in, his chances are not better than Ridley, Isaac, Bowser Jr, Paper Mario, and others.

First of all, I hate tingle. But I kind of agree with ROckem7. Why should someone take the place of a more deserving character. Personally I'd be ok with 2 more LoZ characters. Tingle and Vaati. Vaati may not be in the best of games, but he's the next most important character since he's a secondary villain.

As for clones, Wolf is similar to fox. They aren't exactley the same, but you can tell Wolf was based off of Fox's moveset. I will say he is a luigified clone. You have to agree with that because the definition of a luigified clone is really if they have similar B moves and a few other moves Similar.

The most cloned character to the least cloned.
Toon Link (He is just faster, without any wind in his boomerang)
Ganon (Like toon link, but at least he's in a different series.)
Falco ( Though he is on his way to be luigified, he's still pretty cloney)
Wolf (Similar B moves)
Luigi ( Only 2 similar B moves)

But I am now ok with clones, because they give us someone new to play, without adding extra time to a wait. If we could have 50 completely original characters or 60 characters with 15 being clones, I would go for 60.

The thing is, he will be taking up places that more deserving characters should have. Everyone constantly wants more Mario, Zelda and Pokemon. When I suggest Leaf, I was trying to keep pokemon to a minimum. We have the necessary Zelda characters, we need no more. I can see where people are coming from with Bowser Jr. and Paper Mario, but we only need one of them. This is a Nintendo fighter, not Mario vs. Zelda vs. Pokemon.

People need to realize that Wolf, Falco, Toon Link, Ganondorf and Lucas are all based on other fighters.

Fox -> Falco, Wolf
Link -> Toon Link
Cap Falcon -> Ganondorf
Ness -> Lucas

They were derived from those 4 base movesets. They are technically, "Technically" clones. Yes they have things different from them, but I could care less if Fox's buster stuns while Falcos knocks you back. You are trying to make something different by pushing the scope so close to the character they start to pixelate. (I know there A moves are different. Sakurai had to show Lucas A moves to try and trick everyone into seeing that he was different from Ness. Why do you think he did that?)

An example of this is Street Fighter.

Look at Ryu. Ken, Dan, Akuma, Cyber Akuma, Sean. Evil Ryu and Evil Ken are all consider clones of Ryu. Are they exact matches? No. They all have moves unique to themselves. They were are still derived from Ryu and can still be seen as Shonto Clones.

Look at Mortal Kombat. Remember all the Ninja's? They were clone sprites, but they all had unique Special Moves (normal moves for everyone was practically clone in that series.)

In Power Stone 2, Pride and Mel were considered clones even though their FS were unique.

In Smash bros melee, Young Link was considered a clone even though he was smaller, could wall jump, had different taunts and different stats for his B moves. (Fire arrows.)

Urien is considered a clone of Gill in Street fighter 3 even though both play differently.

This happens with all games. Robo Ky and Order Sol from Guilty Gear are some of the newest to fall into that hole.

 

[SirKibble]

People need to realize that Wolf, Falco, Toon Link, Ganondorf and Lucas are all based on other fighters.

Fox -> Falco, Wolf
Link -> Toon Link
Cap Falcon -> Ganondorf
Ness -> Lucas

They were derived from those 4 base movesets. They are technically, "Technically" clones. Yes they have things different from them, but I could care less if Fox's buster stuns while Falcos knocks you back. You are trying to make something different by pushing the scope so close to the character they start to pixelate. (I know there A moves are different. Sakurai had to show Lucas A moves to try and trick everyone into seeing that he was different from Ness. Why do you think he did that?)

Don't-a forget about me!

Yes, Luigi's moveset is derived from Mario's, despite all their differences.


A moves are just as valid as grounds for changing movesets as B moves are. As a player of both Toon Link and Ness, I can tell you without any hesitation that Toon Link plays very much like a faster, lighter Link (meaning he's effectively a clone), while Ness and Lucas play like entirely different characters. What I'm saying is, being simply "based on" another character's moveset isn't grounds for calling a character a "clone" anymore. Luigi is very distinct from Mario, as Lucas is from Ness. Characters like Toon Link and Falco are much more arguable.

 

[rockem7]

Andddddd....I agree with you. But unfortunately, I believe there are more who disagree. -.-

 

[drag0nscythe]

Don't-a forget about me!

Yes, Luigi's moveset is derived from Mario's, despite all their differences.


A moves are just as valid as grounds for changing movesets as B moves are. As a player of both Toon Link and Ness, I can tell you without any hesitation that Toon Link plays very much like a faster, lighter Link (meaning he's effectively a clone), while Ness and Lucas play like entirely different characters. What I'm saying is, being simply "based on" another character's moveset isn't grounds for calling a character a "clone" anymore. Luigi is very distinct from Mario, as Lucas is from Ness. Characters like Toon Link and Falco are much more arguable.

In all honestly, all my dealings with Ness and Lucas have made them play practically the same. Yes some minor things were different, but overall the same strategies worked and the same ways to get back to the stage, KO opponents work.

and Yes, I forgot Luigi. At least his B moves are definitely more different than Lucas and Ness.

 

[sundayseclipse]

acually some moves are just traits to each sereis. like mario , luigid b and up b, thats a move or just prior moves, like marth and ikes down b
the prior move i would keep for star fox is reflector with the lins nb arrows.

tingles is a hell no(hells not a curse its a place) theyre others more figting potential char. madjora kid, vaati maby zant wolf link transformation.

youde know be hilliraious. a pig(goldland ganon from loz a link to the past) skin for ganondorth =D.

again with the wii mem swap to next nintendo consule. you put wiis mem and upload it to the next gen consule. and itll interact like gba and ds. you can send cut char music and your bio(who your best with..etc) to ssb4