[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Wizzerd]

All of them sound interesting, but I'd prefer Paper Mario and Animal Crossing.

 

[majora_787]

All of those series should be repped. We have a decent chance of having a 50+ roster this time, and since they very well could remove...lemme think...roughly three characters... 14 spaces.

Give a space to...

Ridley
F-Zero rep

I guess, I would choose...

Animal Crossing
Punch-Out
Custom Robo
Golden Sun
Sin & Punishment
Advance/Famicom Wars
Panel de Pon/Puzzle League
Band Bros.
Chibi Robo
Rhythm Heaven
Ouendan/Elite Beat Agents
Magical Vacation

I'm gonna look up the non bolded ones, I can't say I really like those ideas because I don't recognize them.

EDIT: I found all of them except for Rythm Heaven.

 

[drag0nscythe]

I see the list of newcomer series. I think the newcomers should be

Stafy
Captain Rainbow and any others in my smash flash that I missed.
http://drag0nscythe.deviantart.com/art/Super-Smash-Bros-Fisticuffs-95625895

Which is right here.

 

[ChronoBound]

I see the list of newcomer series. I think the newcomers should be

Stafy
Captain Rainbow and any others in my smash flash that I missed.
http://drag0nscythe.deviantart.com/art/Super-Smash-Bros-Fisticuffs-95625895

Which is right here.

The main problem with making Captain Rainbow a playable character is that his game bombed in Japan, and its very likely going to remain Japan-only.

 

[drag0nscythe]

The main problem with making Captain Rainbow a playable character is that his game bombed in Japan, and its very likely going to remain Japan-only.

I think the character and series has potential. It could serve as a self parody of nintendo's series (like the first game was.)

They just need to find a combat system that people will enjoy and market it better. I mean, besides Lip and Takamaru, most of the other characters that showed up in the game were no-bodies. If they made a squeal and took the piss out of Link and Mario, Made fun of Ash and Pikachu, it could be a hit.

I think the game fell into a cult like position. It had the potential, but the creators did not know how to harness it. A sequel could resurrect the series if done right because the potential is there.

As for Japan only, thanks to the internet, I do not think it is much of a problem. Information spreads way to fast. (Not only that, but people can still find a way to play it.)

 

[ChronoBound]

I think the character and series has potential. It could serve as a self parody of nintendo's series (like the first game was.)

They just need to find a combat system that people will enjoy and market it better. I mean, besides Lip and Takamaru, most of the other characters that showed up in the game were no-bodies. If they made a squeal and took the piss out of Link and Mario, Made fun of Ash and Pikachu, it could be a hit.

I think the game fell into a cult like position. It had the potential, but the creators did not know how to harness it. A sequel could resurrect the series if done right because the potential is there.

As for Japan only, thanks to the internet, I do not think it is much of a problem. Information spreads way to fast. (Not only that, but people can still find a way to play it.)

This could be argued for any character. There needs to be solid rock behind the reasoning for a character's conclusion. Speculation or wishful thinking is not a good reason for including a character.

If Captain Rainbow does get a sequel (despite the game only selling about 10K in Japan), and if it is released internationally, then he might be under consideration. However, as it stands currently, Rainbow would be lucky if he even got in as an Assist Trophy (by the time Smash 4 enters development Rainbow will be likely long forgotten).

 

[drag0nscythe]

This could be argued for any character. There needs to be solid rock behind the reasoning for a character's conclusion. Speculation or wishful thinking is not a good reason for including a character.

If Captain Rainbow does get a sequel (despite the game only selling about 10K in Japan), and if it is released internationally, then he might be under consideration. However, as it stands currently, Rainbow would be lucky if he even got in as an Assist Trophy (by the time Smash 4 enters development Rainbow will be likely long forgotten).

A solid rock would be nice, but even then that does not help. We did not need three SF reps, but we got them. Lucas was also pointless, being from a Japan only game from a series that only had one installment in the US. Ice climbers were forgotten by the time melee was out. People wanted Pit, not them.

Sometimes a series needs a chance to break out of the mold it has been cast in. Giving him a chance as playable could help him fly or fall. Just look what wonders Smash had done for Pit. There are talks about a new Kid icarus game at the moment.

---

Also, Goemon would be perfect for a 3rd party rep. Not only has he been on the Nintendo for a very long time, he also is one of Kanomi's best selling series.

 

[majora_787]

Also, Goemon would be perfect for a 3rd party rep. Not only has he been on the Nintendo for a very long time, he also is one of Kanomi's best selling series.

I always figured popularity was a huge chunk of 3rd parties.....and I don't know who Geomon is, despite hoarding classic games for years.

 

[drag0nscythe]

I always figured popularity was a huge chunk of 3rd parties.....and I don't know who Geomon is, despite hoarding classic games for years.

Snake was definitely not in the top 3 for most people.
He is popular, but not with the Nintendo crowd.

Goemon is from the Mystical Ninja Series.
Here is my moveset for him. This is what he looks like, etc.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7044585&postcount=606

 

[Red Arremer]

I think Konami would put in other, better known characters into Smash before using Goemon. Granted, it's a long-running series, but I think that Castlevania (probably Simon from there), Metal Gear and Silent Hill are the best known series. Out of those, I would only consider Castlevania to have a strong history with Nintendo, and it's definitely far more important for Konami and its image than Goemon.
I'd love to see Vic Viper or Twinbee, though...

 

[Wizzerd]

Chronobound, quick question about your project. Is it for what Smash 4 would probably be like if it was released by Nintendo, or what an ideal Smash game would be?

 

[ChronoBound]

Chronobound, quick question about your project. Is it for what Smash 4 would probably be like if it was released by Nintendo, or what an ideal Smash game would be?

The essays cover both.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

I am not sure about this, but I remember reading for Sakurai's reasoning for including Wario was that initially he did not like Wario, and that it was not until WarioWare that he developed an interest for the character.

I've heard that a few times too, and I also am not sure about it since not only have I not found the source, but it kind of seems like something he wouldn't do (I realize this sounds defensive of Sakurai, but I don't see him keeping characters out just because of personal bias). If it's true that he didn't like Wario as much until WarioWare, though, that'd be really interesting and would shed some light on his design in Brawl.

As for that list - I'd like to see characters from Punch-Out, Sin and Punishment, and maybe Dr. Mario, but I personally don't really expect any of them except maybe Dr. Mario.

 

[DekuBoy]

I think we need to make a list of likely characters and have their pros and cons, because I'm sick of seeing that Ridley-size argument repeated so much.

 

[drag0nscythe]

I think we need to make a list of likely characters and have their pros and cons, because I'm sick of seeing that Ridley-size argument repeated so much.

I can cover almost every point people have used against Ridley. Let me post them.

Anti-Ridley arguments Debunked.

Argument 1:
“Ridley is to large and would not fit in the game” also known as “Ridley is to big”

Despite what is claimed in this argument, Ridley is not to big. Common examples are Ridley from the original metroid games as well as the official canon comic. Even if we limit him to his 3D appearances, many other characters have had their sizes changed within the Smash Series. Olimar, Pikachu, Kirby, Dedede, Meta-knight have all been enlarged to fit into the game. Bowser, who generally is known for his size in the main mario line, was chosen to have one of his smaller forms from the spin-off games. Smash is not afraid to mess with peoples sizes.

Ridley from Metroid.
http://www.emulationgalaxy.co.yu/images/ed...d/metroid_1.gif

Comic images Posted by Nyc48
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii183/n.../ridleysize.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii183/n...ridleysize2.jpg
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii183/nyc48/zzsmkup.jpg
http://mdb.classicgaming.gamespy.com/mzm/m...idManga2-07.jpg

Argument 2:
“Relative size is what matters. Samus is in and because of this, Ridley's size is already established as being huge.”

This argument is trying to say that all characters relative sizes are kept intact in the smash series. An example of this is the Mario characters. Bowser is the largest, followed by Peach, Luigi and Mario being the shortest. This is always kept constant. Since Samus is already six feet and Ridley is huge compared to her, he cannot be shrunk down. This is the argument that is usually proposed. Not only is this argument disprove by the fact that they are fake characters, it can also be disproved with Pikachu and Mewtwo from Melee. Pikachu's Canon height is 1'04'' while Mewtwo's Canon height is 6'07''. If you look at the 3D games, you can see that this is their heights. Now look at melee. This is clearly not the case. Mewtwo is smaller and Pikachu is definitely taller. Thus the Relative size argument is disproven.

Combat vid comparing Mewtwo and Pikachu's height in Melee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si4hUNySZV8

Argument 3:
“Ridley would look stupid small.”

This, no matter how anyone looks at it, is an opinion at its core. Many people believe he looks fine smaller, while some believe he looks silly. This is up to personal preference and is not a good enough reason to exclude him from being playable in future games.

Argument 4:
“His proportions are to irregular and would not work shrunken down.”

This argument mainly consists of using Ridley's skinniness and length as means of excluding him from being playable. Most people point to his neck and Many fans have also tried to make him smaller in an effort to have a visual reference for people to see that he would work and that his proportions are not skewed. Examples of this are listed below.

LinkIII_IsBack posted the following.
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/4043/ri...ndsamus1cg4.jpg
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/8972/ri...ndsamus2xt1.jpg
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/4956/ri...ndsamus3fe1.jpg

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/8645/playaberidleyls8.png
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7395/pl...eridley2qb1.png
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/263/pla...eridley3xv8.jpg
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6995/pl...eridley4ps2.jpg

Argument 5:
“Smaller ridley in metroid does not count because of system limitations.”

This argument also includes the “Metroid was overridden by Zero mission” Argument. What this argument is trying to do is say that because Metroid was released on the nintendo, Ridley was only small because of system limitations. Because of the release of Zero mission, this fact is drilled even more. The thing to remember is that the system limitations also apply to other games, mainly pokemon. One cannot count the Handheld pokemon games and act like those sizes matter and then discredit the original Metroid. Both have smaller sprites and characters from their original heights because of system limitations. It is best to just use Canon sizes, or at least the 3D canon game models. Pokemon and Metroid have been put into 3D. As it can be seen, the pokemon models have incorrect sizes in melee. Because of this, it is shown that Smash messes with the sizes and ridley cannot be excluded because some consider his smaller form negligent because of system limitations.

Argument 6:
“They have to use the newest version of characters. (IE Legend of Zelda example.) Because of this, Meta-ridley would be the one to make it playable, and because of his wingspan and out of proportion limbs, be would not be able to be resized.

There are two problems with this claim. One is that Ridley's limbs and wings are very skinny. While Meta-Ridley does have huge wings, it is safe to note that Mewtwo's Dimensions were also skewed in Melee. He appears fatter than he should be. The other point is using the most current character model. This is false by looking at Samus. Samus is based on her Super Metroid look, not the prime series. Other examples is updating the looks for Retro characters, Sheiks new design that was submitted, and even toon link (who is not cell shaded) Since this is true, they can use normal Ridley if they wanted to.

Here is a list of characters, with pictures that show they did not use the newest models from the games.
---
Wolf from Command
http://wiimedia.ign.com/wii/image/article/..._1186378498.jpg

Wolf from Assault
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/4417/wolfev8.jpg

Wolf from brawl
http://www.smashbros.com/en_us/characters/...12/hidden12.jpg

Looks like they used more influence from the Assault version than the command version.
---

Last SF game was command.
Falco looked like this
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/ssb/imag...alcoCommand.jpg

In brawl, he looks like this
http://www.wikicheats.com/images/0/09/Smas...Brawl_Falco.jpg
-------------------
MGS's last game (keeping that the designs were finalized before 2006) was Metal Gear Acid 2
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/t...x-SnakeMGA2.PNG

If you want to argue Nintendo Only
http://www.gameguru.in/images/metal-gear-s...in-snakes-1.jpg

His look in brawl
http://ssbb.teamhijack.com/images/characte...nakeprofile.jpg
-------------------

Here are three examples of where Sakurai did not use the newest models and took creative liberties with the characters designs. If it can happen with them, it can happen with ridley.

Argument 7:
“He is an unimportant character and does not deserve a place in smash”

This argument mainly shows peoples little knowledge about the Metroid Series. It is stated in the official Canon Manga that Ridley Killed Samus' Parents when she was a child. He practically started the Metroid Series. It has also been said that He is the leader of the space pirates. The last thing to note is that he is the most reoccurring boss in the series. I recommend reading this wiki page on the subject. Don't like Wiki? Your loss.

http://metroid.wikia.com/wiki/Ridley

Argument 8:
“Diamond/Peral have many official canon sizes for Barboach. This means Pikachu can grow from 1ft 4in. To over 3ft. Thus showing that using pokemon to discredit relative size is invalid.”

This argument is attacking one of the pro-ridley groups points than Ridley himself. Try and disprove one of your claims, and then he is an invalid character again. The reason why this does not work is because one of the main points is that mewtwo is also shrunk down in size. There is only one mewtwo canonically and his height is supposed to be constant. Since he was shrunk down in size, the argument still has a leg to stand on. One could try and argue biology and on how reproduction and size is generated in real animals, but Pokemon is a game and thus fake. The way they mate, the fact that they only take physical traits from only one parent as well as other things makes it silly to argue logical biology. It appears to be silly to some that to justify the absence of ridley having a chance, an anti-ridley person has to say that the Pikachu in SSE is a special Pikachu that was bread so his size was good enough to fight in brawl. Feels silly. Best to say that the programmers need a larger pikachu to use and just grew his size. People need to remember that this is a game.

Argument 9:
“Ridley's Size stays constant.”

Here is his sizes in Canon order.

Comic images Posted by Nyc48
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii183/n.../ridleysize.jpg

Ridley from Metroid.
http://www.emulationgalaxy.co.yu/images/ed...d/metroid_1.gif

Ridley from Zero Mission
http://metroid.com/zeromission/launch/_img...ies_char6_2.jpg

Ridley from Melee
http://ssbm.detstar.com/screengallery/samus_ridley.jpg

Ridley from Metroid Prime
http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=m...alwebsitsh7.jpg

Ridley from Metroid Prime 2 (He was supposed to appear)
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/metroid/...ssed_Ridley.jpg

Ridley from Metroid Prime 3
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2007/...30_embed050.jpg

Ridley from Super Metroid
http://www.nintendomaniacs.com/images/ul3/...roid/ridley.png

Ridley from Fusion
http://www.ingamedex.com/images/thumb/2/2e...usionRidley.png
http://images.wikia.com/metroid/images/5/5...zen_Ridley1.png

To say the least, his size changes a lot.

Argument 10:
"Ridley is a boss in brawl. Making him playable means other known large bosses like Andross should also be playable (Otherwise known as the Andross defense.)"

We have already proven, in this article, that ridley is not oversized and that he can be shrunk down. That is a key factor you have to get around. Now, first we will act on the notion of bosses. In N64, it was master hand. In melee it was Master hand, crazy hand, and a LARGER bowser (Yes, they made him bigger for his boss fight in melee.) So what have we had before brawl, two hands and a larger bowser.

Brawl is really the first game in the series to incorporate bosses like it did. We really have no clue how they will be treated from here. So stop trying to justify his exclusion because he is a boss. I could use the same argument with AT's. Issac and Lil mac are AT's, not playable material.

As for justifying Andross or Ho-Oh. We do not need to. But if you honestly want them playable, then I could see them working. Just find a large enough fanbase to support for cause for them being playable, and run with it.

Argument 11:
"He flies indefinitely and is bulky. Plus he isn't popular to the general public. Thus he will be broken"

Right, where to begin. Well first, he is not what many would consider bulky. If you visually remove his wings, you can see (look at any of the posted screen shots and think away his wings) that he is not bulky. His wings just make him look bulky. Bulky is also not much of a problem. Charizard and Bowser are both considered bulky.

With flying indefinitely, Charizard is supposed to be a flying creature, but he falls like a rock in Brawl. He has wings, and can fly from town to town in the pokemon games. (Even the 3D games show him being able to stay off the ground more than three flaps.) This point is not valid for this reason. If we have to take it a bit farther, Kirby is supposed to be able to fly forever (even though some games limit it), but he still has a limit on him in brawl.

As for being popular with the general public, the same thing was said about meta-knight (For all those who say I use Pokemon and Zelda to much.) Many and I mean many, reviews complained about him because he was an unknown bad guy from Kirby. (Which is how some put it.) Meta-knight was only known by the small kirby crowd, not by the Nintendo masses. Same can be said for Ridley.

Argument 12:
"Programming Ridley would cost more than programming any other character"

The reason why this argument has been brought up is because many believe that coming up with Ridley's Moveset, design for the game, Hit boxes, FS and even animations will be harder than any other character and will cost the company more money to make him playable. This is bull because this has to happen with every character in smash.

Take ROB for example, who has no established moves. They had to make everything, his moveset, movements and even make his look work with the other characters from scratch. Ridley has established moves, and since his body is not as awkward as people want many to believe, he actually might be easier to make playable.

I do know that Sakurai mentioned him and how it would be challenging. I wish I knew all the details of the situation; Did Sakurai spend alot of time on him? Did Sakurai decided on ZSS and then say "That is all the new Metroid characters we need." Did he even try to formulate a plan with Ridley? I would like to know that. His comment could mean that he spent alot of time and found no way to do it, or he said it as an off-comment to change the subject quickly.

Argument 13:
"Samus can carry metroid on her own. Ridley is unneeded. OR Metroid is about being alone, so Ridley is un-needed."

For one, both of these sound really silly and sound almost like a last resort. They just do. No to Ridley because of Metroid's Atmosphere. Just sounds silly to me. The reason why this is false is because of Link. The legend of Zelda series has always been about Link, the one man army, defeating the evil of Ganondorf (who only ever shows up as the Final boss.) by himself. Zelda is usually a minor character, and almost feels like she is there for name sake.(She is always captured, or sleeping, etc.) Why are those two playable then when The legend of Zelda is mainly about Link being alone (granted the newer games have given him partners to help push along the story, but none of them are playable.)

Note 1:
One thing many need to remember is that the smash bros series in not canon to the original series. Proof of this is the many moveset errors (Ganondorf, Ness) and Final smash liberties (Luigi's Negative zone, Game and Watch Octopus). So keeping strict to canon is not really happening. Some say that because this is a fighting game, and for most, this series is their first fighting appearance, they have no canon movesets. This is silly because the characters movesets were pulled from their respective games. Here is a bunch of links to prove it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTfk3-I4UJg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP7DqAC7Ne0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOMXw8MmO9o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIyjilTlSv4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be1W2n0vW1I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bva1g00xdcg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_to3eKGJISg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNfGTx-q5Os
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQwIY8AISZc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noNXp44bmOs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJe6IoiD9Ys

Note 2:
Sakurai did shrink Ridley in the SSE boss fight. Look at the Meta-ridley fight in SSE and than compare it to the normal meta-ridley fight from Metroid prime. They have different sizes.

Meta-ridley from MP.
http://img150.imageshack.us/my.php?image=m...alwebsitsh7.jpg

Meta-Ridley from Brawl
http://www.wikicheats.com/images/0/0d/Smas...ta_Ridley_2.jpg

Enjoy. If you find a way to strengthen or destroy any one of these (or you would like to add to the list). Please feel free to do so.

Note 3:
Many people usually try to compare Ridley to the other characters, height, size, etc. So here is a Height chart with a Ridley on it.
http://drag0nscythe.deviantart.com/art/Bra...-Chart-97138072
You might have to click the download button to see a better version of it.

---

Well, I hope this still covers everything and is sound. Been a while since I read it and posted it.

 

[justaway12]

Well unless it's put in the first post I think it would soon be forgotten.

Unless someone saves it for later.... which would be for the best since people won't keep repeating themselves.​

 

[Wizzerd]

MARIO SERIES​

Bowser Jr​

+Well-known and recent.
+Mario series is the biggest Nintendo series, and thus it needs reps.
+Could have an interesting moveset with the paintbrush and Shadow Mario.
+Throwback to Koopalings.
-Popularity is iffy.
-Has been a non-playable-character in only three mainstream Mario games.

Paper Mario​

+Has his own, very popular series.
+Potential for a very interesting and non-cloned moveset.
+Has a fanbase.
+Would represent the Mario RPGs as a whole.
-Could be seen as a redundancy.

Toad​

+Has appeared in many games.
+Could be a "retro" character.
-"The Toad" no longer appears in Mario games.
-Toads are now a race, and races cannot be put in ambiguously.

Waluigi​

+Has been in many games.
+For the duality of Mario/Wario and Luigi/Waluigi.
-Roles are all in spinoffs.
-No personality.
-Not very popular.

Geno​

+Vocal albeit slightly small fanbase.
+Great moveset potential.
-Third party.
-Only has been in one game.
-Was not the main character of his game.
-Even in its heyday, Super Mario RPG was never popular.
-Too old to be recent and to young to be retro.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DONKEY KONG SERIES​

King K. Rool​

+Has been in the series since DKC and has been in many games.
+Very popular.
+Would have an interesting moveset.
- Has never been playable.

Dixie Kong​

+Was one of the "Forbidden Seven", proving she is considered.
+Playable in her games.
+Female.
-Could easily become a clone of Diddy.
-Not in many games.
-Not as popular as K. Rool.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

YOSHI SERIES​

Kamek​

+Has appeared in a good amount of games.
+Fairly popular.
-Yoshi series doesn't need another rep.

Baby Mario​

+Has appeared in many games.
-Not as important as he used to be.
-Very unpopular.
-Yoshi series doesn't need another rep.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

WARIO SERIES​

Captain Syrup​

+Is recent after Wario Land: Shake It.
+Would represent the ignored-by-Sakurai Wario Land series.
+Popular.
+Female.
-Not too many games.
-Wario series may not need another rep.

Kat and Ana​

+Popular.
+Have moveset potential.
+Female.
-Represents the over-repped WarioWare.
-Wario series may not need another rep.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LEGEND OF ZELDA SERIES​

Tingle​

+Only Zelda character other then Link with their own game.
+Very popular in Japan.
+Lots of moveset potential.
-Very unpopular in America.

Toon Zelda/Tetra​

+Tetra is very popular, as were Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass.
+The "Toon" franchise is growing rapidly.
+Female.
-Only two games (three after Spirit Tracks comes out.
-Unlike Toon Link, Toon Zelda has not shown different abilities from her mainstream form.

Midna​

+Was in Twilight Princess, the most recent and most popular Zelda game.
+Female.
-Only one game.
-Was not playable in her game.
-Popularity is because of recentness and Midna's... feminine curves in her real form.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

METROID SERIES​

Ridley​

+Very popular.
+Very important to the plot of Metroid and has appeared in many games.
+Great moveset potential.
+Metroid needs a rep.
-Ridley is too big a bit large.

Dark Samus​

+Recent after Metroid Prime series.
+Good popularity.
+Metroid needs another rep.
-Ridley is more popular.
-The Metroid Prime series is dead.
-Generic dark clone.
-Not many games.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

KIRBY SERIES​

Waddle Dee​

+Has been in the series since the beginning.
+Popular (Bandanna Dee, anyone?).
+There was "The Waddle Dee" in Kirby 64.
-"The Waddle Dee" was on one game on an outdated console as a supporting character.
-Generic.
-No storyline importance.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

STAR FOX SERIES​

Krystal​

+Huge fanbase.
+Female.
-Star Fox barely deserves three reps.
-Low storyline importance.
-Not many games.
-Has a huge "hatebase" to go along with her huge fanbase.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

F-ZERO SERIES​

Black Shadow​

+Huge fanbase, especially in Japan.
+Could inherit Ganondorf's moveset and playstyle after Ganondorf is (hopefully) decloned.
+Good amount of games.
+F-Zero needs another rep.
-Generic evil clone (though not as generic as others).

Samurai Goroh​

+Has been in the series since the beginning.
+Good popularity.
+Interesting character and personality.
+F-Zero needs another rep.
-Black Shadow is more popular.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

POKEMON SERIES​

New Generation Pokemon​

+Pokemon is a big series, and it could get another rep.
+Would probably be popular.
-We know nothing about the Pokemon.
Work in progress...

 

[§leepy God]

♪ What, Daisy's not on the list but you have Waluigi... THIS IS... EPIC!!! Waluigi is the best anyways, lol. Toad should have at least three negitives since he is a common character like Goomba, or Koopa Troopa. Also, since I'm a Geno hater, he should have twenty negative's and two positives. XD †

 

[Wizzerd]

Lol, thanks. You know it's still in progress, so tell me if I miss anything. I also hate Geno for being inferior to Paper Mario.

 

[Red Arremer]

You should put into Geno's Contras that his game has been on the SNES.

 

[Wizzerd]

That's a con because the SNES is old, right?

 

[Red Arremer]

Exactly. The SNES era is very long ago already (2 Nintendo consoles between SNES and Wii), and so is the importance of SMRPG for Nintendo now... <.<

 

[justaway12]

Isn't Captian Syrup a villain? That's a pro. I may not have played Wario Land: Shake it but i'm pretty sure

Spoiler

she stole all of Wario's money at the end

.​

 

[Wizzerd]

Being a villain isn't a pro. It's more of a cause of popularity and canonicity. So it's sort of a indirect pro. And you might want to put that in spoilers.

 

[Red Arremer]

But being female is a slight pro, isn't it?

 

[justaway12]

Being a villain isn't a pro. It's more of a cause of popularity and canonicity. So it's sort of a indirect pro. And you might want to put that in spoilers.

Thanks I knew I forgot something.

Anyway I meant that villians are generally important to seris.​

 

[Wizzerd]

But being female is a slight pro, isn't it?

Not really. Smash is meant to reflect the most important and popular characters, no matter what their gender is. And due to the largely male fanbase of video gaming, there just aren't any important and popular females. I would prefer that Ninendo would put in more females in their mainstream games, but that's unrealistic.

Wait, you said slight pro... okay, it's a slight pro.

Thanks I knew I forgot something.

Anyway I meant that villians are generally important to seris.​

You're welcome. And I agree that villians are important to series generally, but what makes them Smash-viable is their popularity rooted in their villian suchness.

 

[kenhead]

I would make it just like melee except with better graphics, better online play, more characters and stages, changing up an advanced technique or two, and get rid of all the slow nonsence that brawl has that took the competitiveness and fun out of smash. And of coarse get rid of tripping. Give Falco his short hop lazer back.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

For that list - I would add that "female" isn't really a pro. You did admit that being a villain isn't one.

EDIT: I missed that you already discussed that with SpadeFox. I would argue that you should either remove that from the list or add "villain" to the villains as a pro, though.

Other little things:

Paper Mario and Toon Zelda both basically have "redundant" as a con, but as far as we know, that's not really much of a con in Sakurai's eyes (although it might make them a little lower on the priority list, but with Brawl a lot of people have been taken off that list).

Instead of Tetra, shouldn't Toon Sheik be there?

Twilight Princess being "a piece of crap" is too subjective to be a con.

There's probably other stuff I might be able to think of to add, but I'll wait for the finished product. It's an interesting idea, and it kind of reminds me of something I did once.

 

[Red Arremer]

For that list - I would add that "female" isn't really a pro. You did admit that being a villain isn't one.

EDIT: I missed that you already discussed that with SpadeFox. I would argue that you should either remove that from the list or add "villain" to the villains as a pro, though.

The thing is, Sakurai said that he was happy to include more female characters when adding ZSS (although Samus already was in, but whatever) into Brawl, which implies that he would like to see more female represantation.

There was no word on villains.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

That's true. I guess I wouldn't add that as a pro, but there are grounds for it.

I have something else to add. What I always remember SamuraiPanda for is translating Sakurai's comments on the fan "letters" for Brawl. I've decided to try my hand at this, only with the responses on the Smash 64 and Melee sites. Although I don't know Japanese, I'm pretty confident that what I have is generally accurate. I'll post them soon.

It's true that it's not directly relevant to SSB4, but I believe that the best way to try to predict what SSB4's roster will be like is by basing it off of precedent, and things like this give us more insight into what Sakurai thinks about some things.

 

[DekuBoy]

Can someone get SamuraiPanda to paste Wizzerds argument into the first post?

 

[Wizzerd]

Thanks, but that should be when I finish it.

 

[Mythic02]

I don't think that you should include in the wario series and yoshi series "doesn't need another rep" as a con.

You could argue that for just about every series if you wanted.

edit: Also don't put down that metroid needs another rep. I could use the same logic you used against yoshi and wario for metroid.

 

[Wizzerd]

It's true that that's an opinion, but nearly everyone agrees that Yoshi series and Wario series don't need another rep, and that Metroid does. I'm trying to reflect the general sentiments. Also, we have to evaluate if a series needs another rep to give it one. You know, who should get in and who doesn't is entirely subjective. People just tend to agree that K. Rool should get in and Geno shouldn't. We don't have a formula to figure it out.

 

[justaway12]

Why is it a con that Minda is popular just because people think she is sexy. What about ZSS? Isn't she sexy? I don't think Sakurai would mind putting someone because of what she wears.​

 

[Wizzerd]

Because Smash is meant to represent the most important and popular series. Whether someone is attractive is irrelevant. The problem is when the popularity is rooted in attractiveness, when it should be in their games. If Nintendo released a new series that instantly became popular and had many game, and the protagonist was an attractive female, then I would support them because they would have reasons for inclusion. Also, ZSS had a more slim and athletic build then a well-endowed one in the Metroid series. I wonder why Sakurai gave her a boob job? Also, read this.

 

[Red Arremer]

Zero Suit Samus got in because Sakurai liked her, I guess. Midna is mainly popular because she appeared in the most recent Zelda game that has many fans (omg link iz a wlof!!11), and the real form of Midna, that transformation is considered "hot", and therefore she got another popularity boost.

 

[Wizzerd]

I agree, and maybe Sakurai did not only like her but also was conscious of the mainly male fanbase of Smash.

 

[Lord Viper]

Kat and Ana​

+Popular.
+Have moveset potential.
+Female.
-Represents the over-repped WarioWare.
-Wario series may not need another rep.

☆ Ha ha, a good Kat & Ana thought, and I agree that Brawl over repped WarioWare. Me personally, I would say each series should get at least two reps, but that's just me. ☆