[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Red Arremer]

I think it's the fact that some series are so strongly represented (Zelda, Pokémon, and, considering their importance for Nintendo, ESPECIALLY Star Fox), while other really strong franchises (mainly F-Zero, Metroid) haven't gotten an expanded character roster despite being in the first game already.
As you already said, MOTHER is a small series, but they have two reps. Star Fox is a not SO small series, but still not the strongest and best known. Meanwhile Metroid and F-Zero, both being among the Top 10 selling franchises of Nintendo, and far better known than MOTHER and Star Fox, have no other reps (besides Zamus, but she's just kind of alternative form for Samus).
For Metroid - there's been plenty of additions to the Metroid basic quartett (Samus, Kraid, Ridley, Mother Brain) in the Prime series - the Hunters, Dark Samus, etc.
For F-Zero... Sure, they'd have to make up another moveset, but that's not so hard imho. The F-Zero cast is HUGE. In the first game we had 4 drivers (Falcon, Dr. Stewart, Pico and Goroh), in X we had a cast of whopping 30 drivers, and in the recent games we also have additions of ca. 20 characters, making it a whole cast of 49 possible choices (excluding Falcon out of this digit).

You see, there's plenty of choices for those two series. I know and can understand that the strongest 3 franchises (Mario, Zelda and Pokémon) have 4 reps, but the balance of importance to rep-number seems a bit odd when it gets below these three.

 

[BKupa666]

People need to monitor Sakurai and have that much of an influence on the way he makes his own game? It's published on a Nintendo console, but Sakurai doesn't have to follow some strict Nintendo Code of Law about how to "represent things properly". (Inaccuracies about information should be looked into, though.)

Honestly, Mother isn't that big of a series. Two characters is enough, and you're lucky to have that much. Donkey Kong not being represented enough? There's Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong, and they've been the main characters for a while, but villains have suddenly become "mandatory". Samus is pretty much the only protagonist in the Metroid series, but once again, villains are suddenly "mandatory".

What am I trying to say? Some people think that Sakurai leaving out one or two characters from certain series warrants his exclusion from directing Smash. Something's wrong with that. I mean, seriously?

He has no law he has to follow; this is why other supervisors are necessary.

F-Zero should take priority over Mother, to get one more character to balance the scale. Mother games are unfortunately done. F-Zero, despite being almost dead, can be brought to the Wii quite easily, if Nintendo pays any attention to hardcore gamers.

On the subject of Donkey Kong and Metroid; Ridley seems to be more wanted than K.Rool; and if this is not the case, we've seen Sakurai choose playable characters based on polls from the previous Smashes, so unless he still thinks Ridley is too big, he is ensured, being the top on the polls.

DK is definitely the more deserving series, if you go by popularity or sales, however. K.Rool doesn't have the 'too big' problem, so he should be in as well, by all means.

Villains are not necessarily mandatory. But, several villains are the most popular characters for SSB4: Ridley and K.Rool, and to a lesser extent, Bowser Jr. and some F-Zero villain.
Plus, look at the villains added into series in Melee:
Bowser for Mario
Ganondorf for LoZ
Mewtwo for Pokemon

In Brawl we got:
Wolf for Starfox
King Dedede for Kirby

That's 5 out of the series that got villains (although Mewtwo was cut, I doubt he would've been if it weren't for the Pokemon Company's request for Lucario; if Lucario is axed in SSB4, Mewtwo has a chance to return, although a bit iffy). Metroid and DK are obviously next in line for this trend (sorry Yoshi villain fans, you're out of luck).

 

[Red Arremer]

DK is definitely the more deserving series, if you go by popularity or sales, however.

Metroid's sales are higher than Donkey Kong's as far as I know.

 

[Big-Cat]

Honestly, Mother isn't that big of a series. Two characters is enough, and you're lucky to have that much.

I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about moveset inaccuracies you've seen me complain about. Also, there's the lack of trophies for that series because it doesn't have any 3D games.

 

[BKupa666]

Metroid's sales are higher than Donkey Kong's as far as I know.

No, DK is actually Nintendo's 4th best selling series after the Big Three, and 9th best in video gaming overall. If Metroid Prime sold better with the Japanese audience, Metroid would be a good deal higher.

Mother definitely needs that kind of supervision, due to the characters using inaccurate moves and cloned final smashes. And the fact that there were only 2D Mother games is not an adequate excuse for no 3D trophies. There were 3D Mother trophies in Melee, before they focused on recycled character art from recent games.

 

[Red Arremer]

Ah well, didn't know that... maybe the ranks I've seen was American sales only or something. I dunno. But I think both DK and Metroid are pretty even. And DK HAS got another rep while Metroid and F-Zero both have nothing but a couple bosses (Metroid) and cheesy ATs (both).

 

[BKupa666]

Ah well, didn't know that... maybe the ranks I've seen was American sales only or something. I dunno. But I think both DK and Metroid are pretty even. And DK HAS got another rep while Metroid and F-Zero both have nothing but a couple bosses (Metroid) and cheesy ATs (both).

I agree with that fact, except that Sakurai counts Zamus as a rep, telling us oh-so-proudly that there are 39 playable characters. F-Zero seriously needs something. As of now, they have nothing but a bottom tier character, a cheesy AT, and a lame Mute City repeat (they're even cloning stages now).

 

[Deleted member]

Assist trophies, SSE, Chronicles, Masterpieces, Stickers and Final Smashes are a waste of time, at least in the way they were implemented in Brawl. For one, each character should have more than one Final Smash. The rest can get lost.

Just make a generic story mode for each character that has them battle their respective villain then face Master and/or Crazy Hand. Also, make the classic and all-star modes not suck so much.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Meanwhile Metroid and F-Zero, both being among the Top 10 selling franchises of Nintendo, and far better known than MOTHER and Star Fox, have no other reps (besides Zamus, but she's just kind of alternative form for Samus).
For Metroid - there's been plenty of additions to the Metroid basic quartett (Samus, Kraid, Ridley, Mother Brain) in the Prime series - the Hunters, Dark Samus, etc.
For F-Zero... Sure, they'd have to make up another moveset, but that's not so hard imho. The F-Zero cast is HUGE. In the first game we had 4 drivers (Falcon, Dr. Stewart, Pico and Goroh), in X we had a cast of whopping 30 drivers, and in the recent games we also have additions of ca. 20 characters, making it a whole cast of 49 possible choices (excluding Falcon out of this digit).

You see, there's plenty of choices for those two series. I know and can understand that the strongest 3 franchises (Mario, Zelda and Pokémon) have 4 reps, but the balance of importance to rep-number seems a bit odd when it gets below these three.

I don't think F-Zero's that well known, at least certainly not more than Star Fox. Most of Capt. Falcon's popularity comes from Smash (even his made up moveset). Other than Ridley, no one really cares about those other Metroid baddies. And sure, F-Zero's cast may be large, but why would we want to add any of those? To balance some sort of "scale"? What is this "scale" based on?

He has no law he has to follow; this is why other supervisors are necessary.

F-Zero should take priority over Mother, to get one more character to balance the scale.

Again, there's the scale. What "balance" is really necessary here? If Smash had to accurately represent Nintendo's franchises' popularity accurately, we'd have wayyy mroe Pokemon representatives, everything would be biased in favor of Mario, and maybe a bit of Zelda. Everyone else would probably get left in the dust.

I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about moveset inaccuracies you've seen me complain about. Also, there's the lack of trophies for that series because it doesn't have any 3D games.

Yeah, perhaps they should work on Mother a bit more.

Assist trophies, SSE, Chronicles, Masterpieces, Stickers and Final Smashes are a waste of time, at least in the way they were implemented in Brawl. For one, each character should have more than one Final Smash. The rest can get lost.

Just make a generic story mode for each character that has them battle their respective villain then face Master and/or Crazy Hand. Also, make the classic and all-star modes not suck so much.

Of course all of that stuff is just extra compared to multiplayer stuff, but do you honestly think all of that (with the exception of maybe SSE) kept Sakurai from working as hard as he could on the characters?

 

[Deleted member]

Of course all of that stuff is just extra compared to multiplayer stuff, but do you honestly think all of that (with the exception of maybe SSE) kept Sakurai from working as hard as he could on the characters?

No. You completely missed the point; Sakurai wasted his time in general, or rather his team's time, spreading them too thin.

 

[flyinfilipino]

No. You completely missed the point; Sakurai wasted his time in general, or rather his team's time, spreading them too thin.

Inserting tiny little demos and little images for stickers took up too much of their time?

It's understandable that you think that stuff isn't important, but don't you think they do too?

 

[Deleted member]

Inserting tiny little demos and little images for stickers took up too much of their time?

It's understandable that you think that stuff isn't important, but don't you think they do too?

They are wastes of time that no one cares about; why include them at all?

 

[flyinfilipino]

They are wastes of time that no one cares about; why include them at all?

You could say that about a lot of things, really.

Who needs items? Who needs stages? Who needs one-player modes? Who needs all these fancy graphics? What is the meaning of it all?

 

[Deleted member]

You could say that about a lot of things, really.

Indeed...

Are your posts always this redundant?

Oh wait, your edit... no, those things actually contribute to the gameplay. Those extensions I mentioned are both useless and unwanted.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Indeed...

Are your posts always this redundant?

Redundant? This thread is over 600 pages long. Not much has been talked about that hasn't before. Besides, we're just arguing over opinion here.

But you did mention Assist Trophies, Final Smashes, and SSE. GOTCHA!

 

[Deleted member]

Redundant? This thread is over 600 pages long. Not much has been talked about that hasn't before. Besides, we're just arguing over opinion here.

So, your opinion is that items, stages and extra characters are as necessary as the extensions added in Brawl. You go in circles with this "everything has been said, everything is the same" mantra. None of the "things I mentioned" effect core gameplay or change it fundamentally.

 

[flyinfilipino]

So, your opinion is that items, stages and extra characters are as necessary as the extensions added in Brawl. You go in circles with this "everything has been said, everything is the same" mantra. None of the "things I mentioned" effect core gameplay or change it fundamentally.

No, I'm just saying that what is "necessary" differs a lot between everyone.

You said that Assist Trophies and Final Smashes were wastes of time, but they do "affect core gameplay". And if all the one-player modes affect core gameplay like you said, then I do believe SSE falls under that category.

But back to the bottom line: what people want. Why do people think it's not possible for Sakurai to give people that while still being the director? (aside from maybe a few things he's said about Ridley)

 

[Deleted member]

No, I'm just saying that what is "necessary" differs a lot between everyone.

You mentioned Assist Trophies and Final Smashes as wastes of time. But those do affect core gameplay. And if all the one-player modes affect core gameplay like you said, then I do believe SSE falls under that category.

****ing gotcha.

Assist Trophies and Final Smashes are fancy Pokeballs - the items in Brawl besides these two were obviously neglected, as many kill in one hit or are crappy [see: smoke ball extravagance]. Also, where'd all the clones go? I would have much rather seen a Falcon clone in Goroh and a Bowser clone (god forbid) in Ridley than the **** we got with assist trophies. Anything that can be turned off is simply not worth the time.

And SSE is simply a fancy adventure mode. As a consequence of that waste, we got an unbearably boring All-Star mode - blatantly overlooked - and an undercooked classic mode. The two were ruined. Was SSE worth the trouble, in respect to how much is wrong in Brawl compared to Melee and SSB64? I don't think it is. In the same respect as the former two, these are features that simply extend on the old. They do not fundamentally change gameplay; they are haphazardly given more attention and emphasis.

We come to the point of this post; the wastes of time in Brawl. Filler, crap, needless... yet, you argue for it in the guise of everything being subjective. There is no good reason for us all to suffer because Sakurai wanted a new angle to market from, it is anti-productive and behaviour I would very much not want to see if he directs another game. Cue, your argument... do you have one?

 

[GreenKirby]

Indeed...

Are your posts always this redundant?

Oh wait, your edit... no, those things actually contribute to the gameplay. Those extensions I mentioned are both useless and unwanted.

In your opinion

 

[flyinfilipino]

In your opinion

Quoted for truth, pretty much.

 

[Deleted member]

I see. Your rebuttal is pathetic, as, I'm afraid, are you.

 

[GreenKirby]

^In your opinion

 

[flyinfilipino]

I see. Your rebuttal is pathetic, as, I'm afraid, are you.

My feelings are deeply hurt over this argument. You have lowered my sense of self-worth through your insults over the Internet. I am left completely miserable; I will simply leave in shame. I am no match for your excessive wit.

tl;dr

*sigh* Grow up. And have a nice day!

EDIT: LOL GreenKirby :D

 

[Deleted member]

I'm sorry to have interrupted your busy life with my pettiness. *muffled laughter*

But seriously, if you want to badger someone, make sure you carry on through with the discussion rather than falling back on ******** comebacks like the one you just posted. We can't all be as cool and non-chalant as you are - lower yourself to our level, plz.

 

[Barge]

@Smash
The stickers are trophies are just something fun and extra, O:

Some people like organizing a sticker album/looking at the info on trophies, its just an extra thing that's for when you're bored. Plus it completes challenges O:

 

[flyinfilipino]

I'm sorry to have interrupted your busy life with my pettiness. *muffled laughter*

But seriously, if you want to badger someone, make sure you carry on through with the discussion rather than falling back on ******** comebacks like the one you just posted. We can't all be as cool and non-chalant as you are - lower yourself to our level, plz.

Honestly, how did this even start? I even agree with you that a lot of stuff in the game doesn't affect multi-player gameplay at all, but it doesn't mean it's unnecessary. That's all I ever implied, and then all of a sudden:

I see. Your rebuttal is pathetic, as, I'm afraid, are you.

None of us is going to get any cool points for throwing personal insults over a speculation thread, so you can drop it whenever you'd like.

@Barge: But games can't have extra things...can they?

 

[Barge]

Flying, what was the point of putting smash daddys quote in your sig? o_O

 

[flyinfilipino]

Flying, what was the point of putting smash daddys quote in your sig? o_O

*shrug* I just thought it was hilarious for the moment.

But for the topic at hand, are "extra things" in games really just totally wrong?

 

[Deleted member]

@Smash
The stickers are trophies are just something fun and extra, O:

Some people like organizing a sticker album/looking at the info on trophies, its just an extra thing that's for when you're bored. Plus it completes challenges O:

I agree on trophies, but stickers never really grabbed my enthusiasm. As perhaps a result of stickers, though, we saw a pathetic amount of trophies in Brawl. That should not have been a sacrifice in vain of new features, it's like they bet on the new horse.

None of us is going to get any cool points for throwing personal insults over a speculation thread, so you can drop it whenever you'd like.

You dropped out of the discussion after annoying me with your stupid bloody questions. Non-stop, for two pages, you basically made me educate and repeat myself to you, whilst you made no attempt to actually contribute to the conversation. Now you are falling back on the 'internet tough guy' cliche, which is nearly as tiresome as your torture esque questioning.

 

[Barge]

No, I suppose not, I mean, its not like the same people work on everything, there's different teams for each little section, so it doesn't take 100x longer. I think some of the things like trophies, stickers, final smashs are just extra things to target other audiences. Its not game changing or anything, I find the coin launcher kind of fun, thats a little extra feature I enjoy..plus you get trophies and stickers.

 

[flyinfilipino]

No, I suppose not, I mean, its not like the same people work on everything, there's different teams for each little section, so it doesn't take 100x longer. I think some of the things like trophies, stickers, final smashs are just extra things to target other audiences. Its not game changing or anything, I find the coin launcher kind of fun, thats a little extra feature I enjoy..plus you get trophies and stickers.

That is what I believe as well; I don't think the same people who were working on programming the characters were working on putting stickers and trophies in at the same time. I'm pretty sure Sakurai's smart enough to divide his team properly.

 

[Deleted member]

No, I suppose not, I mean, its not like the same people work on everything, there's different teams for each little section, so it doesn't take 100x longer. I think some of the things like trophies, stickers, final smashs are just extra things to target other audiences. Its not game changing or anything, I find the coin launcher kind of fun, thats a little extra feature I enjoy..plus you get trophies and stickers.

I suppose it depends on what you enjoyed, but I always saw stickers as easier-to-make trophies. You can organise trophies like stickers; even assign them to characters, possibly, in adventure mode, if you were to flatten them somehow. If the sticker team never existed and instead were part of the trophy team, a lot more trophies would have gotten made.

 

[Barge]

I'm just wondering what they'll do in ssb4 with the trophies/stickers/anything else.
Would they have more meaning to the game?

I also think they should bring back "board the platforms"

 

[Deleted member]

I'm just wondering what they'll do in ssb4 with the trophies/stickers/anything else.
Would they have more meaning to the game?

I don't know about 'meaning,' but I think they'll probably do as they did in Brawl, simply with increased numbers. There's little else they could add. I would much rather they had only trophies, though... I like reading the descriptions and looking at them in my collection.

I also think they should bring back "board the platforms"

Totally! I was thinking that a few days ago when I watched an SSB64 speed-run. They need to make the other challenges personal to each character as well, which was a massive disappointment in Brawl. In general, the SP modes besides SSE in Brawl were majorly neglected and crappy.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I'm just wondering what they'll do in ssb4 with the trophies/stickers/anything else.
Would they have more meaning to the game?

I also think they should bring back "board the platforms"

They'll keep some stuff, lose some stuff. People were saying that stickers were going to replace trophies before Brawl, but we were pleasantly surprised. And stickers aren't 100% useless. The only real purpose is for fun stuff to look at, and there's nothing wrong with that. Maybe...Assist Stickers in the future?

How 'bout Race to the Finish...with some fights inserted here or there. Oh yeah.

 

[Deleted member]

SSE is Race to the Finish with fights inserted here or there.

 

[Barge]

Master hand and crazy hand were nerfed like **** in brawl...They took the challenge out of them, for example on boss battles (I know the bosses are nerfed even more, but still) Master hand and crazy hand are one of the easiest, and they're like the semi-mascot of smash! You can kill them easily without getting hit, doesn't matter if your a noob, you can still kill them without taking any damage as long as you stay behind them.

 

[flyinfilipino]

SSE is Race to the Finish with fights inserted here or there.

Nah, with a time limit. That'd make it a bit more intense.

 

[Deleted member]

Mhmm. The majority of focus was put on the other bosses, that appear in SSE. The other modes were an afterthought in that respect.

Nah, with a time limit. That'd make it a bit more intense.

You mean a RttF mode with a time limit, or SSE with a time limit?

 

[Barge]

I know this has probably been brought up 1000 times, but........

We all know waluigi isn't ever going to be accepted as a REAL character in a part of the mario series..
So far he's been in all of the underlooked mario sports games. So my question to you guys is this.

Should they include Waluigi in SSB4 now?
Or wait for him to get his OWN game?