Kuraudo
4Aerith
I need to host a tourney and get a blue name. :[
-
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OFFICIAL Sonic rFAQ! New to Sonic? Have a quick question? Ask it here!
- Thread starter Tenki
- Start date
The BlackChrimson
Smash Apprentice
That's how you gtet a blue name?
huh...so my name might change after Jan 3rd or so...but I doubt that...
huh...so my name might change after Jan 3rd or so...but I doubt that...
-Axis-
Smash Journeyman
With classic blue theme, EVERYONE has a blue name.
Relating to the thread, how do my fellow Sonic's recover from a failed spin combo? (most notably on a shield)
Yeah, there's lots of options, but which is the most reliable? Air dodge? Double jump? Spring? Or something offensive like a ffed bair?
Relating to the thread, how do my fellow Sonic's recover from a failed spin combo? (most notably on a shield)
Yeah, there's lots of options, but which is the most reliable? Air dodge? Double jump? Spring? Or something offensive like a ffed bair?
Kinzer
Mammy
...Hmm...? Actually this is not very clear... are you talking about your opponent shielding your ball/spin attacks and you going past them...? If you are, the thing I do most (and makes me feel safe) is Auto-Cancel Bair on my way down. Of course there are more that can be applied in other situations... it's up to you to decide where, when, and how you react. It's too broad for me to go over in just one measly paragraph, there is so much you can do at one instance that chances are, a lot of them are already implemented into your game.
I WOULD have said inb4springcancel but I've been off of SWF due to dead week/finals.
haha
If you mean "What should I do if I SDR (ground spin) into someone and they shield it?", it depends on their experience against Sonic.
Against most people, you can get away with aerial > fastfall.
Against people who are used to that, they may try to jump and aerial OoS (ex: Falcon can U-air OoS) - so you can try double jumping backwards ( to slightly delay) then drop a spring on them. Alternatively (and safer), you can airdodge as soon as you see them jump, or just double jump to throw off the trajectory.
I haven't really messed around with this area, but I'd also think that just plain rolling off the edge > double jump B-air/empty DJ back to stage might work, but I personally don't like that kind of stage placement.
Donkey Bong
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2008
- Messages
- 610
quick question: whats the deal with Sonic's invinsibility glitch on Yoshi's Island?
-Axis-
Smash Journeyman
Sonic's side b has super armor/invincibility frames (someone else can clarify which) during the hop. When Sonic uses this move on the slanted edges in Yoshi's Island, he goes straight from a charging state into a roll and retains the "invincibility" properties for the duration of the roll. With this technique, the SDR gains a surprisingly high amount of priority. Keep in mind, however, that the iSDR can still clang with other attacks, and that reversing the direction of the spin will return it to its normal state.
Also interesting to note, iSDR passes through Snakes mines and detonates them without taking damage.
EDIT: Can't a similar thing be done with DK's spinning kong?
1. Yes Axis, it's invincible. I got shot through PX's Wario's fsmash. Neither of us got sent into hitstun, but he took damage and I remained safe as I passed through Wario.
2. True again. In fact, you can see me passing through several grenades during my 2nd game with Razer this past weekend.
3. Yup.
2. True again. In fact, you can see me passing through several grenades during my 2nd game with Razer this past weekend.
3. Yup.
Kinzer
Mammy
What can Sonic do out of a DDP?
I believe you can DA, delayed DA, Hyphen USmash, DACUS, delayed DACUS, jump cancel, Spin Dash, Reverse Spin Dash. That's considering options from a foxtrot and then some, or whatever.
... Am I missing anything else?
I believe you can DA, delayed DA, Hyphen USmash, DACUS, delayed DACUS, jump cancel, Spin Dash, Reverse Spin Dash. That's considering options from a foxtrot and then some, or whatever.
... Am I missing anything else?
Chis
Finally a legend
Sonic can also dash out of a DDP.
Kinzer
Mammy
Wait... if you can roll, can't you shield as well...?
And actually, after watching Mythbusters, I've been inspired to ask this:
Let's pretend we're in theorycraft land for a second and say Brawl physics worked the way we wanted it to (in our favor):
Chains brought up something about Sonic having a guaranteed Up Smash on Meta Knight (if Sonic could force Meta Knight to air-release..). Couple of questions.
1. Is it true?
2. If it is, then surely if an USmash works, there must be enough time for Sonic to do a regrab, isn't there? Zero Suit Samus can do this with her tether, but in where Sonic lacks range, he compensates for speed. I don't see why Sonic wouldn't be able to do it anyway, at least if Sonic could make Meta Knight air-release...
3. Assuming a regrab were to be guaranteed, is it possible to do this on other characters? Just because Sonic cannot force Meta Knight to air-release, there are characters that don't have that luxury; Squirtle is a good example of a character who is really short and will by default get air-released by just about any character who isn't as equally short as he. If it doesn't work on anybody else but Meta Knight, can anybody explain to me why that is so?
I'm determined to try to get this to actually work. Of course this won't ever be done on a flat plain like FD, but on uneven terrain like Yoshi's Island (Brawl), as long as the platform doesn't get in the way, nothing should stop me from letting Meta Knight break free once, only to get regrabbed again for more pummel damage to finish up with a throw (because by then you'll be at the edge of the stage, if not past, and you won't be able to continue a regrab, but with that said I'm curious as to see if there are any possible aerial follow-ups on that). It's the same thing with Wario afterall, it's just again, Sonic can't force Wario to air-release, and it really pisses me off because Wario can do it to himself, but Sonic can't, and it makes no sense because Sonic is taller, but you know Sakurai can go suck a fat one for that.
And actually, after watching Mythbusters, I've been inspired to ask this:
Let's pretend we're in theorycraft land for a second and say Brawl physics worked the way we wanted it to (in our favor):
Chains brought up something about Sonic having a guaranteed Up Smash on Meta Knight (if Sonic could force Meta Knight to air-release..). Couple of questions.
1. Is it true?
2. If it is, then surely if an USmash works, there must be enough time for Sonic to do a regrab, isn't there? Zero Suit Samus can do this with her tether, but in where Sonic lacks range, he compensates for speed. I don't see why Sonic wouldn't be able to do it anyway, at least if Sonic could make Meta Knight air-release...
3. Assuming a regrab were to be guaranteed, is it possible to do this on other characters? Just because Sonic cannot force Meta Knight to air-release, there are characters that don't have that luxury; Squirtle is a good example of a character who is really short and will by default get air-released by just about any character who isn't as equally short as he. If it doesn't work on anybody else but Meta Knight, can anybody explain to me why that is so?
I'm determined to try to get this to actually work. Of course this won't ever be done on a flat plain like FD, but on uneven terrain like Yoshi's Island (Brawl), as long as the platform doesn't get in the way, nothing should stop me from letting Meta Knight break free once, only to get regrabbed again for more pummel damage to finish up with a throw (because by then you'll be at the edge of the stage, if not past, and you won't be able to continue a regrab, but with that said I'm curious as to see if there are any possible aerial follow-ups on that). It's the same thing with Wario afterall, it's just again, Sonic can't force Wario to air-release, and it really pisses me off because Wario can do it to himself, but Sonic can't, and it makes no sense because Sonic is taller, but you know Sakurai can go suck a fat one for that.
-Axis-
Smash Journeyman
I actually really don't understand air releases vs. ground releases.
From what I gather from your post, you're saying that you can force small characters to air release since they dangle above the ground when you grab them.
But is it possible for the struggling player to choose whether they want to air/ground release when they are not in this predicament?
From what I gather from your post, you're saying that you can force small characters to air release since they dangle above the ground when you grab them.
But is it possible for the struggling player to choose whether they want to air/ground release when they are not in this predicament?
[1] Yes. If their feet are not touching the ground, then they will air release, regardless. Try picking Captain Falcon and grabbing shorter characters and they will air release 100% of the time, assuming they aren't against a hill or something. Alternatively, grabbing someone with their feet off the edge also forces air releases.
[2] There was some kind of research done into this and I don't remember the results, but the general idea is that if you're holding up/jump on the frame you escape (or is it just Up?), then you'll have a higher chance of air releasing. Also, if you escape during a pummel, you will always ground release.
I thought you always air released unless your feet are touching the ground or you escape during a pummel.
Is air release to usmash true on MK? Even if it is, it may not do much damage since majority of usmash damage comes from the inicial leap.
Is air release to usmash true on MK? Even if it is, it may not do much damage since majority of usmash damage comes from the inicial leap.
Kinzer
Mammy
Well, if you press a jump button, even if your feet are planted on the ground, you will jump break.
But since we're trying to consider absolutes, your opponent will obviously not jump-release for you. Meaning don't count on this happening unless you're on Yoshi's Island with uneven terrain.
And still, nobody has gotten back to me on whether or not what can be done to MK out of an air-release.
Besides that, it's not just Up Smash, Sonic might have enough speed to set up different things, like Fair/Nair/Spring/Uair/regrab/etc.
But since we're trying to consider absolutes, your opponent will obviously not jump-release for you. Meaning don't count on this happening unless you're on Yoshi's Island with uneven terrain.
And still, nobody has gotten back to me on whether or not what can be done to MK out of an air-release.
Besides that, it's not just Up Smash, Sonic might have enough speed to set up different things, like Fair/Nair/Spring/Uair/regrab/etc.
chaoechidna
Smash Apprentice
I realized today that my tech skills suck. I keep getting killed by being bounced off walls. How did you guys practice teching? After watching that Art of Speed video and seeing that dude's tech skills, i felt flaccid in my tech area.
Kinzer
Mammy
Make a stage like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fccJnX0n7yg
Play as Snake.
Get yourself up in damage, or start off with a handicap.
Blow yourself up.
Practice practice practice.
???.
Profit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fccJnX0n7yg
Play as Snake.
Get yourself up in damage, or start off with a handicap.
Blow yourself up.
Practice practice practice.
???.
Profit.
Kinzer, Idk about frame testing and whatnot, but I could consistently dash re-grab MK out of an air release. When I usmashed, the first hit was powershielded, but i could been too slow. I'm pretty sure the air release to re grab is legit though.
I'd imagine that it would be pretty easy with sonic since all you have to do is use homing attack.
chaoechidna
Smash Apprentice
That was too cool kinz. Thanks a lot!
Mr. Johan
Smash Hero
Spin Dash from the edge, double jump, 2 homing attacks, and a Spring up to the ledge.
That's one way to do it.
Kinzer
Mammy
This.
No problem. Actually, I got introduced to duelist by FOW. I really like that kid, I do.
Hey, thanks for going through the effort.
I'll check it out myself though, either tonight or tomorrow, with the Homebrew hacks and the slow-down thing and blah blah blah. I'll find out what could be guaranteed or not. I have to go to a weekly tournament in Vegas first though, priority one is reppin' dat Sawnik.
Chaosgriffin
Smash Ace
Hey sonic mains. I was wondering how well does Sonic do on Battlefield? good - neutral - bad?
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
depends on the sonic, camalange counterpicks BF on just about everybody, where as I think ive only won one match on BF with sonic in like the last 2 months...
id say its pretty neutral tho. but its up to each individual sonic
id say its pretty neutral tho. but its up to each individual sonic
Kinzer
Mammy
Whew, I'm back, and I have frame-data!
So listen up peeps:
Understand that in normal circumstances, Sonic CANNOT force Meta Knight to air-release. I have no idea why this is from a logical stand-point; Sonic cannot air-release Wario either, and yet Wario can force HIMSELF to air-release and punish him with something like Uair. This tells me that Wario should also be able to force Meta Knight to air-release since those tow are about the same height, but even still, Sonic, who is taller than both, still can't do it.
@#$% you Sakurai, @#$% you.
Now with that said, I am going to stress this again, Sonic cannot force Meta Knight to air-release under normal circumstances.
As I said in my previous post, an opportunity like being on Yoshi's Island uneven terrain may be able to give you the leverage you need to have Meta Knight's feet dangle off the ground while you have him at the mercy of your hands.
Now I also asked if anybody knew any follow-ups from this. I didn't get much of what I had hoped, but I went on ahead and got the frame-data myself.
You'll be glad to know that Sonic had enough speed to regrab Meta Knight from an air-release. This is because it takes 30 frames for Sonic to recoup, while it takes Meta Knight 50. That gives you 20 frames leverage to do what you have to do. Unfortunately 20 frames is only so much, and there is little you can really do that is instantly devastating.
I'm not exactly sure how many frames it takes Sonic to get to where Meta Knight is and grab him, but I do know that a regrab cannot be avoided for certain. This will allow you to squeeze in some more pummels on Meta Knight before you decide to throw him for even more damage. In some cases, since Meta Knight is really light, should you not have killed him off earlier, those few extra % figures from excess pummels may be just what you need to get him to killing percent. Lovely, isn't it?
Just make sure that you don't pummel when he releases, or it will turn into a ground-release, and you will not have any follow-ups from that.
USmash is not guaranteed. It takes 18-19 frames for the first USmash hitbox to come out, and considering you have to run, Meta Knight will be able to shield before you can do any harm to him. I am not able to test out DACUS during freeze-frame testing because the C-Stick is disabled during freeze-framing. I am sure though, that since you're essentially canceling your DA into an USmash, it won't work anyway.
Two aerial follow-ups I'm looking into, but can't truly confirm. Forward Air and U-Air come out on Frame-5 (I think, either frame 5 or 4), and since Sonic can run really fast and still have enough time to jump and use those attacks, they should work. Nair won't work even being only 1-frame slower than F-air and U-air because it doesn't have enough range. Don't even try using B-air or D-air, they're too slow.
There you have it folks.
So listen up peeps:
Understand that in normal circumstances, Sonic CANNOT force Meta Knight to air-release. I have no idea why this is from a logical stand-point; Sonic cannot air-release Wario either, and yet Wario can force HIMSELF to air-release and punish him with something like Uair. This tells me that Wario should also be able to force Meta Knight to air-release since those tow are about the same height, but even still, Sonic, who is taller than both, still can't do it.
@#$% you Sakurai, @#$% you.
Now with that said, I am going to stress this again, Sonic cannot force Meta Knight to air-release under normal circumstances.
As I said in my previous post, an opportunity like being on Yoshi's Island uneven terrain may be able to give you the leverage you need to have Meta Knight's feet dangle off the ground while you have him at the mercy of your hands.
Now I also asked if anybody knew any follow-ups from this. I didn't get much of what I had hoped, but I went on ahead and got the frame-data myself.
You'll be glad to know that Sonic had enough speed to regrab Meta Knight from an air-release. This is because it takes 30 frames for Sonic to recoup, while it takes Meta Knight 50. That gives you 20 frames leverage to do what you have to do. Unfortunately 20 frames is only so much, and there is little you can really do that is instantly devastating.
I'm not exactly sure how many frames it takes Sonic to get to where Meta Knight is and grab him, but I do know that a regrab cannot be avoided for certain. This will allow you to squeeze in some more pummels on Meta Knight before you decide to throw him for even more damage. In some cases, since Meta Knight is really light, should you not have killed him off earlier, those few extra % figures from excess pummels may be just what you need to get him to killing percent. Lovely, isn't it?
Just make sure that you don't pummel when he releases, or it will turn into a ground-release, and you will not have any follow-ups from that.
USmash is not guaranteed. It takes 18-19 frames for the first USmash hitbox to come out, and considering you have to run, Meta Knight will be able to shield before you can do any harm to him. I am not able to test out DACUS during freeze-frame testing because the C-Stick is disabled during freeze-framing. I am sure though, that since you're essentially canceling your DA into an USmash, it won't work anyway.
Two aerial follow-ups I'm looking into, but can't truly confirm. Forward Air and U-Air come out on Frame-5 (I think, either frame 5 or 4), and since Sonic can run really fast and still have enough time to jump and use those attacks, they should work. Nair won't work even being only 1-frame slower than F-air and U-air because it doesn't have enough range. Don't even try using B-air or D-air, they're too slow.
There you have it folks.
-Axis-
Smash Journeyman
That's quite interesting.
Kinzer, do you think you could PM me the method you used for using frame data to recreate an in-game situation?
For example, say I wanted to know if Marth's ftilt was punishable with a dashing grab if you powershielded it at maximum range. How would I go about figuring this out?
Kinzer, do you think you could PM me the method you used for using frame data to recreate an in-game situation?
For example, say I wanted to know if Marth's ftilt was punishable with a dashing grab if you powershielded it at maximum range. How would I go about figuring this out?
Kinzer
Mammy
I have Homebrew installed on my Wii, as well as two codes I used/need to be able to slow-down my game down to the frame. If you have homebrew installed and all that other technical stuff taken cared of, all you need are the codes activated when you boot up Brawl through Gecko. You have to have both, or it won't work. The codes will allow you to obviously slow down the game so you can be ready to figure out whatever it is you need, like how long it takes Ike's Eruption to fully charge, or something like that.
Without further adieu:
Debug Pause: - (GCC)
80000000 805B8A08
0402E5AC 8819000B
4A000000 804DE470
38000000 EFFF1000
86410000 00000001
E2000001 00000000
4A000000 805B8A08
3A000002 00FF0000
12000002 00000001
E2000001 00000000
4A000000 804DE470
38000000 FFEF0010
4A000000 805B8A08
3A000002 FF000000
12000002 00000100
E2000002 00000000
Press Start to freeze the game(don't worry, the music and sounds are unaffected).
Press Z to step through frame by frame.
Press Start again to unfreeze the game.
(The new Start command is X+D^)
Button Modifier:
041E6CD8 4BE1C128
041E6D1C 4BE1C114
06002E00 00000068
9421FF80 BC410008
7CE4402E 7CE738F8
7CE73039 3864FFC0
7CE3412E 7CC4412E
B8410008 38210080
60000000 481E3EB0
9421FF80 BC410008
7C03202E 3DC01000
7DCE70F8 7C007039
740E0408 3DE00408
7C0E7800 40820008
64001000 B8410008
38210080 481E3EBC
Must be used with the Debug Pause Code.
Just note as I've said before, during debug pause, C-Stick won't work, so you won't be able to find out C-Stick related stuff, like Spinshot, and etc.
It will take some time to figure out how to work it properly, but once you do, you basically have Brawl figured out. To find out something like the frame (dis)advantage of powershielding Marth's untippered Foward Tilt, you will have to first find out when the hitbox connects. Once that's done, have Sonic (or anybody) shield at the time Marth's Forward Tilt comes out. Understand that the Shield comes out on frame 1, and I believe there is a 3-frame window to Powershield, so once that happens, drop Sonic's shield and then have Marth buffer a shield after the lag of his Forward Titl goes away. Since you know that a shield for everybody (but Yoshi I guess) is frame 1, you will know exactly how long something is.
For simplicity's sake, let me theorycraft here. Assume that Marth's Forward Tilt untippered connects on frame 5. You have Sonic powershield on frame 5, and it takes 15 frames total from start to finish for Forward Tilt untippered to finish its animation. Since it only takes about 1 frame to drop a powershield, Sonic will gain about a 9-10 frame advantage against Marth's powershielded Forward Tilt untippered. If you graduated elementary school and got a C in Math throughout all the years, you should be able to figure out how many frames there are in whatever it is you wish to figure out. What you do with that number is up to you, but generally to everybody it means that Sonic will have time to do a forward tilt, Down Tilt, standing grab, etc., since those are all faster than 9-10 frames.
Now what makes any of those options viable is how far they reach. If you had the grab range of Ganondorf but the grab came out of frame 6, it may not be a good idea to try to use grab as a punisher unless you know it will connect guaranteed. Again, this can be figured out with debug pause, but I'll leave that up to you if you so wish to do it yourself.
Am I clear? Do you understand well enough to do this yourself I hope you do.
Without further adieu:
Debug Pause: - (GCC)
80000000 805B8A08
0402E5AC 8819000B
4A000000 804DE470
38000000 EFFF1000
86410000 00000001
E2000001 00000000
4A000000 805B8A08
3A000002 00FF0000
12000002 00000001
E2000001 00000000
4A000000 804DE470
38000000 FFEF0010
4A000000 805B8A08
3A000002 FF000000
12000002 00000100
E2000002 00000000
Press Start to freeze the game(don't worry, the music and sounds are unaffected).
Press Z to step through frame by frame.
Press Start again to unfreeze the game.
(The new Start command is X+D^)
Button Modifier:
041E6CD8 4BE1C128
041E6D1C 4BE1C114
06002E00 00000068
9421FF80 BC410008
7CE4402E 7CE738F8
7CE73039 3864FFC0
7CE3412E 7CC4412E
B8410008 38210080
60000000 481E3EB0
9421FF80 BC410008
7C03202E 3DC01000
7DCE70F8 7C007039
740E0408 3DE00408
7C0E7800 40820008
64001000 B8410008
38210080 481E3EBC
Must be used with the Debug Pause Code.
Just note as I've said before, during debug pause, C-Stick won't work, so you won't be able to find out C-Stick related stuff, like Spinshot, and etc.
It will take some time to figure out how to work it properly, but once you do, you basically have Brawl figured out. To find out something like the frame (dis)advantage of powershielding Marth's untippered Foward Tilt, you will have to first find out when the hitbox connects. Once that's done, have Sonic (or anybody) shield at the time Marth's Forward Tilt comes out. Understand that the Shield comes out on frame 1, and I believe there is a 3-frame window to Powershield, so once that happens, drop Sonic's shield and then have Marth buffer a shield after the lag of his Forward Titl goes away. Since you know that a shield for everybody (but Yoshi I guess) is frame 1, you will know exactly how long something is.
For simplicity's sake, let me theorycraft here. Assume that Marth's Forward Tilt untippered connects on frame 5. You have Sonic powershield on frame 5, and it takes 15 frames total from start to finish for Forward Tilt untippered to finish its animation. Since it only takes about 1 frame to drop a powershield, Sonic will gain about a 9-10 frame advantage against Marth's powershielded Forward Tilt untippered. If you graduated elementary school and got a C in Math throughout all the years, you should be able to figure out how many frames there are in whatever it is you wish to figure out. What you do with that number is up to you, but generally to everybody it means that Sonic will have time to do a forward tilt, Down Tilt, standing grab, etc., since those are all faster than 9-10 frames.
Now what makes any of those options viable is how far they reach. If you had the grab range of Ganondorf but the grab came out of frame 6, it may not be a good idea to try to use grab as a punisher unless you know it will connect guaranteed. Again, this can be figured out with debug pause, but I'll leave that up to you if you so wish to do it yourself.
Am I clear? Do you understand well enough to do this yourself I hope you do.
-Axis-
Smash Journeyman
Mmm hmm. Thank you very much.
Mr. Johan
Smash Hero
No. You can cancel it while holding up, down, or without pushing the control stick/D-pad at all.
You can't cancel it while holding reverse, however. Sonic will just change directions if you do that.
You can't cancel it while holding reverse, however. Sonic will just change directions if you do that.
M
+9999999999
In need of some quick answers here.
Marth is really really gay at edgeguarding, and while recovery isn't my Sonic's strongest point, can anybody give me some tips on how to recover safely with the spring, against a Marth particularly?
Marth is really really gay at edgeguarding, and while recovery isn't my Sonic's strongest point, can anybody give me some tips on how to recover safely with the spring, against a Marth particularly?
Browny
Smash Hater
recover high + spinshot is the answer to most of lifes problems, decent vs marth too b-reversing a spring to dair afterwards makes juggling you on landing quite hard, anything other than going for the ledge is good lol.
b-reversing a spring to dair afterwards makes juggling you on landing quite hard, anything other than going for the ledge is good lol.
Kinzer
Mammy
Wasn't the question asked how to recover from being sent offstage? This seems like something you'd say when you're giving advice to somebody who is having trouble getting back on ground from being juggled upwards.recover high + spinshot is the answer to most of lifes problems, decent vs marth too
Then again, I have had a couple of drinks, so maybe my judgment is impaired.
In any case case it's not easy task if you're being juggled, Marth has a lot of mobility and if you get predictable you'll be eating a good hard tipper.
In the case of recovery, just recover high, as already said.
Kupo Rose
It's what my cutie mark is telling me ♫
When I get meteor spiked. What's the best way to cancel my momentum? (is that even the right term?)
By jumping or by spring? I normally spring, not sure if I'm doin it right >.>
By jumping or by spring? I normally spring, not sure if I'm doin it right >.>
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
jump first then spring.
unless u already used ur second jump. then spring.
unless u already used ur second jump. then spring.
Kupo Rose
It's what my cutie mark is telling me ♫
Lol, I've been doin it wrong all this time .__.
Thanks.
Thanks.