Official Metaknight Discussion

[Humpy Thrashabout]

Oh hey this is a novel idea. It would be far easier to implement than what I proposed. As tien pointed out though there are some pretty big problems. Applying this to the last thread would be very interesting at least. If you're really intent on doing this (I assume by using some python magic or some ****) I could send you a compilation of all of Ankoku's tournament results. Now to find the old thread.... http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=242903

Yeah, I'll probably just do it in C. I actually happen to have a script which will do almost the exact thing we need.

 

[CRASHiC]

While pro-ban sits and waits for anti-ban, why aren't the responsible neutrals doing anything? (DMG, adum) in attempting to come up with a ban standard, or at least begin discussion on such a thing, and doing a mathmatical look at matchups as was also proposed by the "anti-ban for now until certain things are met" side.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Coming up with ban criteria is incredibly hard.
What should we judge to see wether MK is banworthy or not? I can only judge with my gut feeling, telling me not to ban him yet.

If you want to go by Ankoku's character list, it's very flawed. If you want to go by results of large tournaments and only looking at only the top 8, what are you discussin? Banning MK completely from a game, looking at only the elite top.
Ban criteria is too hard to be made in my opinion.

 

[rvkevin]

planking in a debate? someone needs to implement a ledge grab limit right now.

Here's the problem I have with LGLs. If they are set too high, (most tournaments have them at 30, 40, or 50), you're essentially saying that its not OK to plank the entire match, but its OK to plank the remaining 4 or so minutes...so it kind of annoys me when people say planking is banned...and unless the TO makes a subjective judgment to include grabbing the ledge as part of the overall stalling rule (Kind of like this: "Stalling is banned. I will determine on the spot what stalling is and will warn and DQ players at my own discretion. You don't know what my judgment is like, so its in your best interest to not test me,"), then planking is not banned.

 

[Jim Morrison]

^ *facepalm*

 

[adumbrodeus]

While pro-ban sits and waits for anti-ban, why aren't the responsible neutrals doing anything? (DMG, adum) in attempting to come up with a ban standard, or at least begin discussion on such a thing, and doing a mathmatical look at matchups as was also proposed by the "anti-ban for now until certain things are met" side.

I came up with one that was intended as a starting point for discussion that was referenced a long time ago. It's my only blog post.


I've been working on ideas for the theoretical framework for mathmatical MUs but:

1. It's difficult

2. I don't wanna reveal any new information atm because that would bias any ban discussion of potential ban criteria more then it already is (still holding out for possibility of deciding criteria civilly). If at any point I hit a "Eureka" moment and feel like I can calculate MUs with a reasonable degree of accuracy I will promptly state as much and remove myself from any criteria discussion, exempting posting direct quotes about the process I think we should follow. If we decide to make a final decision on this I'll surrender any data I have about the theory and practice.

3. It's difficult as f***.

 

[rvkevin]

^ *facepalm*

Care to explain?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Care to explain?

It's been banned because it ostensibly overcentralizes (lol, based on what data). MK the argument that being able to plank the last 4 minutes of the match does overcentralize is even less backed up by data then planking itself's claim.

 

[Gnes]

THE MORE YOU KNOW people

 

[Jim Morrison]

Sure do, he was making a joke. Anti-ban was replying slowly, so he called it planking, then made an ironic joke about the ledge grab limit. It had nothing to do with in-game.

 

[Chuee]

Nobody planks for 8 minutes lmao

 

[Overswarm]

Nobody planks for 8 minutes lmao

*cough*

Ahem.

 

[DMG]

1. I could come up with a ban standard. Even one that wasn't biased. The problem is that the community would not agree on a criteria that was put forth. At this point in the game, people when asked about banning a character do not have a "vague, unknown picture" of a character or "vast scenarios" to encompass when covering ban criteria. Now that so much time has passed, people obviously know that MK is the character in question, and the problem is that people aren't sure about his abilities. You have a really good character, and the community itself isn't even sure HOW GOOD he is. I'm not talking about ban worthy or non ban worthy, I mean we have the community unsure of how good MK truly is with planking, with scrooging, in frame data, etc.

Before you EVEN GET to the discussion of "Ok hey, does he need to be banned or not" you have the ongoing debate of "Ok hey, how good is this character?". I think that is the main debate or discussion going on right now. The process of banning a character HONESTLY is not that hard. You agree on how good he is, you compare him to the criteria laid out, and with the kinks and rough spots smoothed out, you basically either see that he meets or does not meet the criteria. The problem, in our case, is that we can't even agree on how good the character is, AND that we can't agree on a criteria.

2. COUGH COUGH PLANKING FOR 8 MINUTES IS MY DREAM COUGH COUGH

"Hey guys, not EVERYONE murders, it doesn't happen THAT often, it's not a big deal"

Now change murder with planking. Yup.

THE MORE YOU KNOW, THE MORE YOU CAN SLICE BATTLES IN HALF

 

[rvkevin]

1. I could come up with a ban standard. Even one that wasn't biased.

Could you give an example?

It's been banned because it ostensibly overcentralizes (lol, based on what data). MK the argument that being able to plank the last 4 minutes of the match does overcentralize is even less backed up by data then planking itself's claim.

Btw, not all tournaments have this covered in the rules, which is why I brought it up...and if the tournament rules use the LGL as the definition of stalling, then planking the last X minutes while still under the LGL is not stalling and therefore not banned. I hope you realize that stalling is not banned because of over centralization.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It's been banned because it ostensibly overcentralizes (lol, based on what data). MK the argument that being able to plank the last 4 minutes of the match does overcentralize is even less backed up by data then planking itself's claim.

I researched planking and have been working on a project to see how broken it is.

I guarantee MK's planking would cause multiple characters to go from a 6-4 to a 7-3 or worse. I really mean more than 2/3s of the cast would be unviable if we let him go without the arbitrary rules we set.

Multiple characters have zero answers to planking, Power sheilding MK's 2 frame Uair doesn't count, I'm talking about a reliable answer.

Everyone else's, Mr. Game & Watch, Pit, Pikachu, Marth, have many more opportunities to work in answers to them. MK doesn't have it with only a 3 frame window to punish if he does it right.

 

[DanGR]

I'll go ahead and say this right now: I haven't heard a single logical reason to "ban" planking (LGLs, gliding limits, other arbitrary means of nerfing MK) rather than to address the root of it.

It seems like a majority of TOs that will ban it instead of MK will do it just so they won't upset all the good MK mains that put their precious time into the character because they don't want them ignoring their tournaments.

Where do "ban MK" and "ban planking" differ so much so as to enact one but not the other? Past answers I've gotten to this question have seemed pretty arbitrary. For example, planking gives MK even more of an advantage over everyone... really? <.<

 

[Jim Morrison]

MK isn't the only character that can plank/stall.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

MK isn't the only character that can plank/stall.

Those characters don't have 3 frame windows where they can only be punished if they do it right.

 

[DanGR]

MK isn't the only character that can plank/stall.

He's the only one that's able to shut down a goo... oh wait.

This community won't even keep it legal long enough for us to test it! How are we supposed to know how good it really is or how much of an impact it really has on this game?

*facepalm at community*

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Don't bother I guarantee it would shut down a large portion of the cast looking at frame data and hitboxes.

 

[MarKO X]

Not only is MK (probably) the best planker, he's (probably) the best equipped to deal with planking.

 

[DMG]

Sample Criteria:

If character only has 55:45 or higher matchups in his favor, show that at least 1/3rd of the remaining cast (50% or more of which is in the top 1/3rd of the tier list) have predominately 55:45 matchups against aforementioned character. If this is not the case, a ban is warranted.

If those characters do show to have close matchups against the character in question, and data shows the character to be unhindered by this, a ban is suggested (note Suggested, not warranted.)

 

[_Keno_]

You can edge-hog Sheik out of that ledge stall.

yep, as shown here vs Amsah. (at 1:30).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI_hGcWjTKA

 

[rvkevin]

Sample Criteria:

If character only has 55:45 or higher matchups in his favor, show that at least 1/3rd of the remaining cast (50% or more of which is in the top 1/3rd of the tier list) have predominately 55:45 matchups against aforementioned character. If this is not the case, a ban is warranted.

So a character has 55:45 or higher with the whole cast...then show that 50% of top tier have 55:45 match ups with that character? Huh. Doesn't showing he has no even or disadvantageous match ups guarantee step two? So, essentially your ban criteria for a character would be if he can't be counter picked? I wouldn't disagree, but I would put a time limit on it...giving the community time to find answers against said character (6 months, 1 year, 2 years, etc).

 

[DMG]

Also, you fell into the trap. You could maybe make a non biased criteria, but not a non-subjective one.

No, the criteria was that if the character has only 55:45 or higher matchups in his favor, and you can't prove that at least 1/3rd of the cast has a 55:45 matchup with him (and 50% of THAT 1/3rd being in the top 1/3rd), then it warrants a ban

 

[Kewkky]

You know what I find amazing? With all the suggestions being thrown around, I haven't seen anyone say "Before a match, the MK player should ask the opponent for permission to use MK. If the opponent says no, then MK can't be used".

Spoiler

I wanted someone else to say it though, it's not funny when the one who waits for the moment has to make it happen... ):

So, according to DMG's suggestionopinion, a ban can be suggested for MK. Nice to know he's not looking down on the community for dragging this on.

 

[rvkevin]

You know what I find amazing? With all the suggestions being thrown around, I haven't seen anyone say "Before a match, the MK player should ask the opponent for permission to use MK. If the opponent says no, then MK can't be used".

This is the same thing as banning MK...

As long as both people agree, its legal...you can play on any banned stage you want, as long as your opponent agrees, same for banned characters.

 

[Asdioh]

yep, as shown here vs Amsah. (at 1:30).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI_hGcWjTKA

So he grabbed the ledge and Sheik didn't die. Didn't even take any damage, haha. Not to mention that Sheik could've predicted the edge grab and punished Fox, leading to an easy stock.

Thanks for showing me an example, anyway.

...back on subject, why is MK still allowed in tournaments? Low risk, high reward much?

 

[Kewkky]

This is the same thing as banning MK...

As long as both people agree, its legal...you can play on any banned stage you want, as long as your opponent agrees, same for banned characters.

I played on Summit once with a friend... It was a tourney match. I don't remember if I added pokeballs though. We did that cuz he was 100% sure he was gonna lose, so why not have fun with it? No one even noticed we did it... :D

on a serious note, if MK is banned then people can still use him if both players agree. But if it's an MK-Banned tourney, no matter how many people agree a player can go MK, he still won't be able to use it cuz it's an MK-Banned tourney. Don't think it's legal to use MK then. :/

 

[MarKO X]

...back on subject, why is MK still allowed in tournaments? Low risk, high reward much?

Because Ally and ADHD can beat M2K.

hmmmm... if you go to an MK banned tourney, and every one of your opponent agrees to letting you play MK, and you win in that tourney, is it legit?

 

[rvkevin]

But if it's an MK-Banned tourney, no matter how many people agree a player can go MK, he still won't be able to use it cuz it's an MK-Banned tourney. Don't think it's legal to use MK then. :/

If both players agree, you can go MK (even if its a MK banned tournament). If everyone, but your opponent, thinks you should be able to go MK, you can't.

 

[Kewkky]

hmmmm... if you go to an MK banned tourney, and every one of your opponent agrees to letting you play MK, and you win in that tourney, is it legit?

Exactly what I mean! I wanna see people's answers to this! Bet no one will answer it, but meh.

 

[_Keno_]

So he grabbed the ledge and Sheik didn't die. Didn't even take any damage, haha. Not to mention that Sheik could've predicted the edge grab and punished Fox, leading to an easy stock.

Thanks for showing me an example, anyway.

Amsah could've been punished (killed probably) with an up-smash had the fox wavelanded instead of stood up. Just a mistake on his part.

The point in the melee discussion was that Shiek's planking is more easily defeat-able while MKs is difficult to punish. I was just showing how even the best sheik can be (potentially) punished during planking. Also, if the shiek messes up, she is dead, while the MK has multiple jumps and a long recovery.

I'm just posting because people point to shiek's ledge-stall, saying "why should we ban MK's ledgestalling if sheik still has hers"?

 

[hotgarbage]

Yeah, I'll probably just do it in C. I actually happen to have a script which will do almost the exact thing we need.

Awesome. I just pm'd you the the Ankoku's data compilations, consisting of tournaments up to the date the poll closed. I'm personally very curious to see how this will turn out . (It won't really be relevant, but still interesting)



So to review this method of resolution...

Pros:
- It is a targeted community poll. Which is a
[collapse=good thing]
- Provides immediate resolution of the issue
- Would be much less divisive than a SBR mandate
- Community having a voice in the matter is important
[/collapse]
- Would be very easy to do


Cons/Concessions:
- Is based off of Ankoku's data, which is incomplete. As such some people who should have a voice would end up not having one. It shouldn't be a huge game breaker though; all NA regions report their sizable tournaments at least. Primarily Atl South, Canada, and more recently Pacific West wouldn't have complete data for smaller tournaments though. PW data is on AiB however, so with effort it could be added. I'm not sure if complete Atl South and CN data even exists.
- This poll wouldn't target all of the active tournament-going Brawl community; just those skilled enough to place well. Not "bad" thing, but it may not be what people want.
- Some people's board names are different than their tourney names. This shouldn't be too hard to resolve though.

 

[rvkevin]

hmmmm... if you go to an MK banned tourney, and every one of your opponent agrees to letting you play MK, and you win in that tourney, is it legit?

I would say yes as long as the opponent was competent...If he beats ADHD/Ally/DEHF at a MK banned tourney with MK, it would just be like any other tournament...however, if a DDD or Marth went through brackets eliminating Snakes and then allowed his opponent to go MK on him, I would seriously question his competency.

 

[ADHD]

So he grabbed the ledge and Sheik didn't die. Didn't even take any damage, haha. Not to mention that Sheik could've predicted the edge grab and punished Fox, leading to an easy stock.

Thanks for showing me an example, anyway.

...back on subject, why is MK still allowed in tournaments? Low risk, high reward much?

Because you main kirby and we want you to be miserable.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Btw, not all tournaments have this covered in the rules, which is why I brought it up...and if the tournament rules use the LGL as the definition of stalling, then planking the last X minutes while still under the LGL is not stalling and therefore not banned. I hope you realize that stalling is not banned because of over centralization.

Planking is not stalling (no infinite effective invincibility) and stalling overcentralizes by nature, and is universally banned (it's own category). It immediately ends competition, therefore it's banworthy regardless of character, it's a banworthy tactic.

 

[Dre89]

I'm sure this has been mentioned before but why don't they do it pokemon style where they have tier-tourneys. They could have S-A tourneys, A-B etc.

 

[MarKO X]

because brawl tourneys take way too dam long.

 

[rvkevin]

Planking is not stalling (no infinite effective invincibility) and stalling overcentralizes by nature, and is universally banned (it's own category). It immediately ends competition, therefore it's banworthy regardless of character, it's a banworthy tactic.

Planking is not stalling...Stalling is banned...Therefore planking is banned...great logic!

I'm sure this has been mentioned before but why don't they do it pokemon style where they have tier-tourneys. They could have S-A tourneys, A-B etc.

Ever hear of low tiers? Some places even include mid tiers...