Official MBR Tier List

[mild or spicy]

i didn't say for tournaments. I said overall. for tourny's the other top tiers are more viable cuz they do better against each other than shiek. fox is cute and furry, but ppl pick him cuz they know they need him at high levels. i been using the ****er since sixta four though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox vs Sheik is just frustrating at medium-low level because at that level you suck at spacing F-tilt through his aerials, you don't know how to space using her limited aerial mobility to have your stuff beat his while remaining unpunishable, and you haven't developed the reaction time to death combo / tech chase him from grab to keep up with his simple Fox stuff.

It gets easier at higher level because his gameplay doesn't really change it just gets refined and they miss less L-cancel and get faster.

Sheik changes a lot 'cuz their moves start to actually win consistently, they start to do massive **** damage from throw, they start to edgeguard in super homo ways, and they seem to have no lag.

I'm not sure who wins at high level though, so don't ask me. I just think it gets easier because Sheik's stuff is really dependent on where you're hitting with the move in this case and most of it isn't really automatic until about like 50 or so if they know how to CC and DI your stuff.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

im so bad at killing fox out of a grab...

 

[mild or spicy]

i wouldn't say one is better than the other at high levels.

im training up my reflexes with shiek so i can gay them by watching their tech animations.

 

[KirbyKaze]

that is a good strategy.

i think fox has gayer levels though (cruise, floats, corneria). but sheik has a few homo ones of her own (japes, kj64, brinstar kind of).

 

[KevinM]

I like how Fox doesn't care what stage you bring him to, he's so diverse he can just gay you on your counterpick LOL.

 

[KirbyKaze]

small stages play to his close-combat pressure and gimp game (so like, his edgeguarding, ability to setup edgeguards super easy, having super broken edgeguarding, and his ridiculously sex super pressure i mean shine and best movement).

long stages play to his long range pressure game (movement, lasers) and having significantly lower "kill percent" start and almost automatic ways of setup (shine --> u-smash, u-throw, etc).

and then gay stages play to his homosexuality which just eviscerates people. obviously some stages are worse than others (i don't think for a lot of characters green greens is that bad for instance) but some are horrific (like taking peach to pokefloats; if fox settles into the long term game and does it right, she literally can't win).

 

[Geist]

Pokefloats lol

 

[DtJ Jungle]

vidjo v spam ftw

 

[Binx]

Fox vs Sheik seems pretty even to me at high levels of play, Sheik is fast enough to grab fox and she gimps him crazy easy, same vs falco although a little harder because his jumps are more difficult to punish (for me anyways)

Sheik just has to play a lot gayer to win.

 

[mild or spicy]

see the thing is shieks would win vs falcos more often if they knew how to counter laser/dair approaches, the full depth of her aerials and needle game.

 

[Sybawave]

Show us how to do that then lol

 

[T1M]

I like looking at little boys!

 

[Wangster]

i seriously think sheik should be above fox and marth. she's just 2 good.

 

[DrewB008]

im glad this thread is talking about top tier again instead of kirby and **** that was going on the last few pages

i think fox vs sheik is basically even, slight advantage for fox but not much. i think sheik should be higher on the list than fox, but i think marth should be higher than both of them.

 

[KirbyKaze]

see the thing is shieks would win vs falcos more often if they knew how to counter laser/dair approaches, the full depth of her aerials and needle game.

see the thing is shieks would win vs falcos more often if they knew how to counter laser/dair approaches, the full depth of her aerials and needle game.

see the thing is shieks would win vs falcos more often if they knew how to counter laser/dair approaches, the full depth of her aerials and needle game.

see the thing is shieks would win vs falcos more often if they knew how to counter laser/dair approaches, the full depth of her aerials and needle game.

see the thing is shieks would win vs falcos more often if they knew how to counter laser/dair approaches, the full depth of her aerials and needle game.

see the thing is shieks would win vs falcos more often if they knew how to counter laser/dair approaches, the full depth of her aerials and needle game.

For emphasis.

 

[handsockpuppet]

Jiggs is better than Falcon and Peach

>__>

Iunno, this all comes down to personal thoughts since we know the facts are what the Tier list says. but I would put Falcon above peach and Jiggs, and peach above Jiggs, but then again I see potential in a lot of characters that bothers don't. for instance, I think Samus should be high, above jiggs and maybe peach. I can't play Samus for my life but I've seen people who are good at her recovery and people who are good at camping and people who are good at air game, and it's just putting together pieces of the puzzle

EDIT: for the Fox vs. Sheik argument I'm leaning towards fox because I just feel sheik has been explored enough and there isn't much left. plus there's a reason nobody mains sheik, it's like impossible to be good with her without (excuse the johns) being really cheap, and chaingrabbing everybody. that's why she rules in matchups. but then again, we need a new matchup thread.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Jigglypuff ***** Samus?

Marth ***** Samus?

Sheik ***** Samus?

These and more may be slight hindrances to Samus's quest to being good?

I'm pretty sure Jigglypuff has more tournament winning power. I could explain it, but most of it comes down to Jigglypuff being awesome and Peach not being awesome and manliness =/= good.

 

[Ryan-K]

samus is underrated to hell imo but no way shes above peach or any of those lol

 

[handsockpuppet]

lmao if she's underrated as hell that means a few places up would be better, so that's getting at least close to Peach.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Samus is bad. And very limited as a character.

She has a lot of good tricks and some untapped potential but not a whole lot.

She does not do well against many characters. She's good for the space animals, not terrible against Peach, not terrible against Falcon, and beats the ICs. Beyond that her matchups become meh as a whole and she gets eviscerated by Marth / Sheik / Jiggs.

The issue lies in that her shield game is amazing as hell against some characters but simultaneously terrible against others. Add in a terrible grab and we have a winner. Unfortunately, it's not Samus.

 

[DrewB008]

samus is way too limited to be that high, i wouldnt even say shes good for the space animals, they just have to be extra patient. according to oro way back in the day samus slightly beats peach, but not much has reflected that throughout tournaments

i go back and forth on jiggs/peach/falcon placement a lot. im only really experienced with falcon out of those three, so i cant say anything with a lot of certainty, but i can say that jiggs without rest would not be as good as falcon or peach. rest just makes such a difference in a match that it definitely could influence this order. rests are definitely easier to land than a zero/low % to death tech chase with captain falcon, its just a matter of how much worse the rest of her game is than his, and my guess would be that she would average out to be a little better, but she can be outplayed pretty thoroughly by people really familiar with the matchup

peach i dont have as much to say, except her matchups are roughly the same as falcons except she destroys climbers and gets destroyed by marth while falcon goes even with both, all in all too close to call for my experience

 

[handsockpuppet]

If places were determined merely by matchups vs tops (though it does have a big impact on the tier list) It would go Sheik, Marth, Fox, and Roy would be a bit higher lol.

EDIT: too limited? a great recovery, camping, aerial, CC, and ground game too limited?

 

[KirbyKaze]

How would Roy be higher?

He's terrible against the top tiers. Like, super terrible. At least two of them can beat him by holding down.

Moreover what relevant discussion does talking about Roy add. Roy is irrelevant. He's at best a footnote (if even that).

edit: Her recovery is overrated. It's not very good at all, it just takes a while to edgeguard and a lot of people wind up messing up.

She can't ledgehop waveland or ledgehop aerial either without losing almost all her invincibility because of her super slow floatiness, so it's not like she's safe once she touches the edge. She still has to work her way back into the stage, which can be brutally horrible against Marth and Sheik and Puff and characters with more range. Against two of those, that assumes she made it back at all.

Admittedly, against Fox, Falcon, and Falco somewhat, her recovery isn't that bad.

Her camping game is trash. Her aerials are hindered by her terrible short hop and slow aerial movement because of her floatiness. When she's airborne and committed she's very vulnerable to anyone with more range than her.

Her ground game and CC are good, however.

And yes, that's too limited.

 

[handsockpuppet]

well he's my main and I love squeezing him in. and he's good against spacies. but yeah, I guess that's it.

 

[DrewB008]

yeah that is too limited because none of it actually has to do with killing anybody

people learn to play against samus and they dont get hit by up b or get cc'd very often

recovery doesnt work on fox's up smash, missiles are not very good for camping compared to most other projectiles. samus cant do much to people running away from her

roy is bad vs falco, and not actually very good vs fox either, but hes better than most low tiers against fox, i'll give you that. samus destroys roy completely, i hope that isnt clouding your judgment on her

 

[KirbyKaze]

well he's my main and I love squeezing him in. and he's good against spacies. but yeah, I guess that's it.

being good against space animals is worth a lot.

it is unfortunately counter balanced by being bad against sheik and marth and jiggs.

 

[DrewB008]

roy loses every matchup except pikachu pichu young link and mewtwo

maybe kirby, i dont know anything about that character but it would make sense that roy could beat him

 

[Winston]

The tier list SHOULD be/IS determined by matchups, weighted by position in the tier list. (this sounds circular but I assure you it isn't).

The general brief definition of a tier list is "a list that ranks characters in order of tournament viability among players of equal skill level" or something similar. In general, the better characters are going to be more populous in tournament, both because people will usually pick characters that give them a better chance of winning, AND because those better characters will tend to rise to the later rounds on virtue of their strengths.

In short, a character's tournament viability is almost completely determined by his or her matchups with the top segment of the cast.

As far as Jiggs goes, I think the main thing to explain Jiggs' recent successes is a trait which I haven't heard discussed and will call "malleability". Jiggs' matchups aren't any better than that of either Falcon or Peach; all three of them are at a significant disadvantage vs 3 of the top 4 and are evenish with the last. Their matchups among the high tiers are all comparable too, I think. In an abstract situation where players are assumed equal skill and matchup experience, Jiggs would not be performing any better.

Jiggs however, because of how awkward he is to play against/all the gay things he can do/his strange properties (what KirbyKaze was saying earlier basically), allows whoever plays him to work around his disadvantages more than the other two characters. That is, differences in skill, style, or experience between players can help Jiggs more than it can help Falcon or Peach. Thus players like Mango and Hungrybox have been able to use Jiggs to incredibly high finishes.

Part of this I think is the fact that the anti-Peach and -Falcon metagames are much much stronger in general. Peach and Falcon have been played by top players for years and people generally have experience against them and know how to exploit them with top tiers. Jiggs hardly got any representation except for King who didn't play as much as other top players (until Mango).

As for Samus... well her top tier matchups are comparable (again, 3 unfavorable and 1 even), but her high tier matchups are worse overall than Falcon, Jiggs, or Peach.

Hell, if anything, isn't Ganon a bit more underrated than Samus is? >.>

 

[KirbyKaze]

If it's done by matchups then it's Sheik Fox Marth Falco and then a bunch of other characters.

Sheik's matchups are the best.

What that tier list fails to incorporate, though, is the ridiculous skew that has Fox players representing 50%+ of the active tournament scene.

And that would, in turn, affect the positions of a lot of characters. Because of that skew, even if Fox isn't the best character, doing well against him matters that much more.

I'd be all for a matchup based tier list, fyi. But that would be its flaw atm.

 

[Winston]

If it's done by matchups then it's Sheik Fox Marth Falco and then a bunch of other characters.

Sheik's matchups are the best.

What that tier list fails to incorporate, though, is the ridiculous skew that has Fox players representing 50%+ of the active tournament scene.

And that would, in turn, affect the positions of a lot of characters. Because of that skew, even if Fox isn't the best character, doing well against him matters that much more.

I'd be all for a matchup based tier list, fyi. But that would be its flaw atm.

That wouldn't be a flaw, really, if Sheik is the best in a matchup-based tier list. That would just be real life not corresponding perfectly to theory, which isn't really unusual when there's human choice involved. It would simply be that Fox is much more attractive to the majority of players because of his playstyle, and that would outweigh the sleight sleight advantage that Sheik would give them over Fox.

However, I'm inclined to think that Fox actually does have the best matchups - I mean even your post alludes to Fox having something of an advantage over Sheik, right? Fox vs Marth is accepted as even, and I think Fox vs Falco is effectively even as well.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mmmmm

I'm not sure about that one, I stated that earlier.

If I was to allude to something it would be to M2K's tier list, where he states that Fox / Marth is even and then later suggests Marth is slightly better vs Fox than Sheik because of the chain grab. Which would, in turn, imply that Sheik is worse than even against Fox (and therefore at disadvantage).

However, I'm not sure I entirely agree with that for my own personal reasons. One of the larger ones being I think that it's entirely possible for Sheik to death combo Fox from grab with reaction based tech chase and some very small predictions but since we haven't seen that one yet, I'll just tuck it away here as theoretical gobbledy gook.

 

[Winston]

Mmmmm

I'm not sure about that one, I stated that earlier.

If I was to allude to something it would be to M2K's tier list, where he states that Fox / Marth is even and then later suggests Marth is slightly better vs Fox than Sheik because of the chain grab. Which would, in turn, imply that Sheik is worse than even against Fox (and therefore at disadvantage).

However, I'm not sure I entirely agree with that for my own personal reasons. One of the larger ones being I think that it's entirely possible for Sheik to death combo Fox from grab with reaction based tech chase and some very small predictions but since we haven't seen that one yet, I'll just tuck it away here as theoretical gobbledy gook.

it is true that sheik's metagame is woefully underdeveloped at the top level compared to fox, falco, marth...

I wish I could avoid saying "metagame" as much as I do but I can't think of another word that fits there >.>

 

[KirbyKaze]

lolz

Sheik is super underdeveloped for most people. But strangely, up until now that hasn't been a problem hahaha. I guess Sheik is broken.

 

[handsockpuppet]

being good against space animals is worth a lot.

it is unfortunately counter balanced by being bad against sheik and marth and jiggs.

Sheik=Hell yes Marth=pretty bad

but Jiggs isn't that bad. Roy has the reverse blazer (a one-hit kill on Jiggs), and if he stays on the ground, it evens out to at least 6-4 jiggs.

roy loses every matchup except pikachu pichu young link and mewtwo

maybe kirby, i dont know anything about that character but it would make sense that roy could beat him

 

[Kyu Puff]

but Jiggs isn't that bad. Roy has the reverse blazer (a one-hit kill on Jiggs), and if he stays on the ground, it evens out to at least 6-4 jiggs.

Jiggs = pretty bad. She can cc rest the majority of his moves, rest oos his best move, and easily combo into rest. When Jiggs is in the air, Roy can't d-tilt her; when Roy is in the air, he instantly becomes vulnerable. Roy's situational one-hit kill is counterbalanced by Jiggs ability to gimp him in 2 seconds with a b-throw -> f-air off the ledge.

 

[Roman.]

roy's side b can work wonders

 

[DrewB008]

reverse blazer only consistently works on a few levels, i dont remember all the specifics but i know any DI causes it to not work most of the time

i think it works pretty well on story though

 

[handsockpuppet]

It works on most tourney-legal stages, and sometimes I think you can do it on the platforms of the stages it doesn't work on. and you can't say it's that hard to set up, 'cuz hell, it's just as tough as Jigg's rest. And I find many times Jigg's recovery isn't that useful against Roy, because he can kill jiggs with an F-smash at pretty low percentages without jiggs even having a chance at getting back (it goes so fast Jiggs isn't in the air for long. I guess you could double-stick tech it, but most people don't know how to do that, and it's still tough).

 

[DrewB008]

it is not just as tough as jiggs rest, jiggs can rest after uair, utilts, tech chases, she can probably duck roys grab, lots of options. and really, im almost positive if the jiggs DI's to either side, which they probably will be anyway just to move, it usually doesnt kill