Official MBR 2010 NTSC Tier List

[the_irish_dude]

if we are comparing character vs. character then Zelda has the adv. Zelda has mad priority over alot of other moves. plus knockback effects. as mentioned before hitboxes. you have to be a dedicated player to even be noticed with mew2.
u have to be able to study his game more than almost any other character to know exact points of it. with zelda she has high defense marks and average offense marks. plus combo ability. mewdos is high on anything. maybe avg on somethings but not high.
it doesnt matter if certain players are good with him. that just means they are great players who can crack into the depths of bad characters souls.
Zelda is a better selection overall therefore should be higher on the list than mewtwo.

 

[Stevo]

lol Zelda vs Mewtwo discussion AGAIN?!?!?!

the never ending debate continues....

 

[Varist]

I actually really disagree that Zelda's got more combo ability than Mewtwo. Of all the matches I watched of Zelda the other night, I honestly didn't see it. I agree with her great priority, I agree that she has some great kill moves, I question her defensive effectiveness though. But you could say she dies just as easily as Mewtwo, so it's moot.

We've seen it matters a lot when certain players are good with a character. Zelda isn't a better selection overall, as much as you can argue a character's viability, it's usually very hard to ever say that a character is better "overall". In the case of low tiers, they hardly ever cover everything. That's where your bias shines through. To examine Mewtwo:

Mewtwo has many of the offensive elements of a mid-tier character:

Chain grabs that (at least from what I've seen) are more potent than Zelda's,

gimps in the form of d-air, side-B and sometimes b-air.

projectiles with decent speed and kill ability.

combos in the form of u-air and f-air juggling, sometimes n-air, and his fast tilts.

recovery that is far better than Zelda's recovery, no contest. Second best vertical recovery in the game, the best for all practical purposes if IC is SoPo.
stall tactics for emergencies, even if it is homo it's still a strength that top tiers like Shiek and Puff possess.

kill moves F-air, D-air & projectile, to kill off the top, bottom, or side respectively.

mind games with up-b, roll and air dodge.

Mewtwo's two big problems are his approach and his survivability. Puff's got the same problem with survivability, and players can win matches without approaching all the time.

Checklists like these are what I didn't really want to start, but they do illustrate that Mewtwo possesses the fundamentals required of a competitive character. And what does fundamental start with? F. Mewtwo king of F tier

 

[Stevo]

I wouldnt call dair or shadow ball a kill move as they will kill very rarely.
up-throw would be one to add

Mewtwo's roll is not a mindgame either, as it is too slow. Actually, I think you should just take the mind game section out completely. Mind games is too broad a term.

Zelda has more kill moves, and the extra weight somewhat makes up for the worse recovery.

and mewtwo doesn't really have a chain grab. I think you mean "Grab game"
Zelda lacks a real grab game, though.

 

[choknater]

u gotta play a good zelda to know. u learn to respect her shield and not challenge her too much as she's jumping. challenging her by approaching is much more difficult to do than against mewtwo. there are a lot of approaches mewtwo just simply can't handle using his own attacks, which is why mewtwo has to evade sooo much in matchups.

 

[Stevo]

I used to wreck people with Zelda, but people learn, and when they start to abuse her flaws, it really becomes apparent that she is not amazing.

I am not sure Mewtwo is better, but she is probably pretty close to where she should be in the tier list.


You have to be much more careful against her thats for sure

 

[Varist]

I wouldnt call dair or shadow ball a kill move as they will kill very rarely.

up-throw would be one to add

Mewtwo's roll is not a mindgame either, as it is too slow. Actually, I think you should just take the mind game section out completely. Mind games is too broad a term.

Zelda has more kill moves, and the extra weight somewhat makes up for the worse recovery.

Dair is a great kill move imo. I know Taj doesn't use it often but I think that's because of his style rather than because of some perceived problem with the move. Shadow Ball is a move that will kill at a comfortable percent, again, because it's rare and requires some prediction, doesn't mean it's a bad move.

I wanted to add up-throw, but because many of the high-tiers are fast fallers I refrained from reaching for that string.

Mewtwo's roll is actually the fastest, and the farthest (by a LONG run), in the game. If you think Mewtwo's roll is too slow, I don't know what to tell you

I don't think having "more" kill moves makes anyone a great character. If you've got six moves that kill at 90%, and I've got one fast kill move at 90%, our characters really can't be compared. Both of them could be equally viable killers. Apples and oranges.

Opinion ofc, but I don't think the extra weight makes up for her recovery. I mean, it really is tremendously bad. If I could remember every recovery's details off the top of my head I would name it the worst in the game for competitive play, but I can't, so I'll go with one of the worst.

I used to wreck people with Zelda, but people learn, and when they start to abuse her flaws, it really becomes apparent that she is not amazing.

I am not sure Mewtwo is better, but she is probably pretty close to where she should be in the tier list.

You have to be much more careful against her thats for sure

I agree that low tier characters' flaws are easily abused, which is why they're low tier. Maybe it's Taj's playstyle, but aside from Armada, I don't think he really gets read all that easily. Mewtwo and Zelda are about equally underground characters, so people don't know the matchup as well as they know others, but I just feel like Mewtwo's up-b/roll/nair/tilt shenanigans have the edge over what Zelda can pull off as far as big bags of tricks are concerned.

 

[Stevo]

Mewtwo's roll is actually the fastest, and the farthest (by a LONG run), in the game. If you think Mewtwo's roll is too slow, I don't know what to tell you

it goes far, yes, but nobody is going to be caught offguard if you roll behind them.....

if it really was that quick, people would just use the roll instead of trying to do Taj insta up-b

 

[choknater]

mewtwo's tilt hitboxes are tiny and have very poor duration. sure mewtwo's tail has reach, but the worst part about it is that it's not really disjointed. so even if it has range to rival ganon/puff/marth, the tilts only go at certain angles and mewtwo's tail has vulnerable hurtboxes.

and for nair, mewtwo takes a pretty big risk jumping straight at the opponent with a low range move. it's just like pika's nair or doc's nair, but less powerful. again, mewtwo's big body makes him very vulnerable

can't just list mediocre moves and call them effective 'shenanigans'!

 

[Varist]

it goes far, yes, but nobody is going to be caught offguard if you roll behind them.....

if it really was that quick, people would just use the roll instead of trying to do Taj insta up-b

Really? nobody would be caught off guard? not a single tournament player is going to be caught off guard if you roll behind them? using the fastest roll in the game no less? i don't believe it.

People wanna be like Taj cuz he's so fly. And what do you mean if it really was that quick? it is, test it lol

mewtwo's tilt hitboxes are tiny and have very poor duration. sure mewtwo's tail has reach, but the worst part about it is that it's not really disjointed. so even if it has range to rival ganon/puff/marth, the tilts only go at certain angles and mewtwo's tail has vulnerable hurtboxes.

and for nair, mewtwo takes a pretty big risk jumping straight at the opponent with a low range move. it's just like pika's nair or doc's nair, but less powerful. again, mewtwo's big body makes him very vulnerable

can't just list mediocre moves and call them effective 'shenanigans'!

I agree, they're tiny. Small duration's not really a bad thing. That means it takes very precise timing from my perspective. And Mewtwo's tilts have low lag. i don't see that as a con if you've got enough reactionary prowess.

I never recommended approaching with a nair, even if it's something taj likes to do. i see it as more something to chain in between your juggles. Falcon and Ganon have big bodies but with spacing and proper maneuverability they can overcome that. You could argue that Falcon's more mobile so that doesn't matter as much, and that Ganon is heavier so it's not as bad a combination. I would agree, and I would say that Mewtwo's 4th largest shield in the game softens that flaw a little bit.

Oh, sort of going back to something earlier but still relevant; I remembered that Mewtwo's shadow ball comes out in 9 frames. That's faster than the knee. If the opponent is close enough that the Shadow Ball doesn't have to travel, it's a fine kill move.

 

[Stevo]

Mewtwo's d-tilt is good because of how quick it is.


the other 2 are mediocre for sure.
2002 join date
can't argue with that

Edit: mewtwo's roll would catch a ganon player who is warlock punching off guard. You got me.

 

[choknater]

comes out in 9 frames? i really doubt that. you can clearly see the windup before he shoots it out!

also, even if tiny duration isn't that bad of a thing and requires more decision, there are real reasons why fox and falco have such good aerials to approach with. it's because their hitboxes stay out for a long time on their bairs, drills, and nairs. i play ice climbers and bair is one of their strongest aerials, but the fact that the hitbox doesn't stay out for very long decreases its viability

anyway, the same can be said about zelda's fair/bair, but the reward is much higher AND the hitboxes are very disjointed

 

[Strong Badam]

varist, Mewtwo can't chaingrab.

 

[choknater]

i believe mewtwo can cg certain characters with dthrow

 

[Stevo]

I'm pretty sure with proper DI it is escapable

I think

 

[choknater]

ah hm, i see

 

[Varist]

comes out in 9 frames? i really doubt that. you can clearly see the windup before he shoots it out!

also, even if tiny duration isn't that bad of a thing and requires more decision, there are real reasons why fox and falco have such good aerials to approach with. it's because their hitboxes stay out for a long time on their bairs, drills, and nairs. i play ice climbers and bair is one of their strongest aerials, but the fact that the hitbox doesn't stay out for very long decreases its viability

anyway, the same can be said about zelda's fair/bair, but the reward is much higher AND the hitboxes are very disjointed

9 frames if shot while he's charging it, which can be abused if you charge it up right before it maxes out, and then (since most of the time you combo into it airborne) Press B to start the charge, immediately "cancel" it with L and press B again to shoot it while charging. Altogether it's actually 13 frames when done properly, my memory failed me a little bit, but I believe that's still faster than the knee (which is... 14?)

I understand that hitboxes with large durations are great for aerials, because of the cover they provide for approaching, but I don't think they're good for tilts. You can move in the air while performing a move, you can't on the ground, so I think the shorter hitbox duration makes it more lagless and less punishable.

I never claimed zelda didn't have kill moves, she has great kill moves, she has them in spades tbh, I was just stating that Mewtwo had them too when I was trying to show that he has almost every offensive arena covered. I suppose I should make a concise list of what I believe Zelda has over Mewtwo and vice versa to get into a debate with more clarity, which is what I want to do.


Chain Grabbing - M2 > Zelda (I've seen some amazing tech chasing/chain grabbing by Taj into some sexy combos)
Gimping - M2 ? Zelda (Only because I don't have that extensive a knowledge of how Zelda can gimp people. If I were informed this could be a debatable contention)
Projectiles - M2 > Zelda (I think Din's Fire is too laggy)
Comboing - M2 > Zelda (From what I've seen. because Zelda's most useful aerials have high knockback, she can't juggle as well as M2 and suffers at building damage because of it. I don't think that M2's comboing ability, however, is of that great importance when Zelda can kill so easily that racking up superfluous damage is of little concern)
Recovering - M2 > Zelda (No contest. M2 has one of the best recoveries in the game, Zelda one of the worst, I think this is an argument for M2 that's pretty much off the table)
Landing Kills - M2 < Zelda (Killing is a staple of Zelda's. Clearly)

(Taking out mindgames and stall tactics)
Now, in order of the importance of these traits in competitive battling:

Landing Kills
Gimping
Comboing
Chain Grabbing
Recovering
Projectiles

Killing is the objective of melee; gimping is a more situation way to kill; combing leads to killing; if you play well enough you won't need recover, but practically you do; projectiles are a mere tool towards comboing

That's my reasoning for which areas are most important. These can be debated as well.

Zelda has the most important part of competitive Melee as a character strength, with Mewtwo covering all other overall character strengths.

 

[Strong Badam]

you can't just quantify lists like that. that's not how character viability works. you have to pay attention to how the characters function in the matchups that matter.

additionally, Mewtwo can't chaingrab except maybe G&W or some ****. tech-chases are strictly inferior to traditional chaingrabs, I don't know why you'd include them in the same category.

 

[Stevo]

Roy looks amazing on paper
but try using him effectively in real matches.

You can use those points for an argument for mewtwo, but you can't just score him as a better character, like SB said.

your posts are very nice and organized though.

 

[choknater]

comparing mewtwo and zelda's projectile game? apples to oranges man.

that's like saying link and samus >>>> marth because of projectiles

zelda's game is based around patience and winning close range encounters, similar to luigi.

 

[Varist]

varist, Mewtwo can't chaingrab.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aQ6YGX-vNs
0:47
1:01

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amZAeGBnl
0:08
2:32

M2 gets little two-piece chaingrabs a couple times a stock. Maybe you're talking about semantics and what I call tech chases aren't chain grabs but I like to look at grabbing someone two or more times in succession without giving them a gap to react chain grabbing /shrug

edit: you are, so just look at every instance of chain-grabbing before and rewrite it as tech chasing in your mind.

 

[Winston]

Roy looks amazing on paper
but try using him effectively in real matches.

You can use those points for an argument for mewtwo, but you can't just score him as a better character, like SB said.

your posts are very nice and organized though.

Roy looks amazing on paper? A character whose aerials dont really work and whose moves are strong close to him but very weak at max range? >__>

 

[choknater]

roy's greatest strength is his side b

 

[Stevo]

Roy looks amazing on paper? A character whose aerials dont really work and whose moves are strong close to him but very weak at max range? >__>

ignore the fact that the outter part of his attacks dont really do much (though some of them do) he would just look like a regular character without disjointed range.

he is fast, good grab game, and has disjointed powerful attacks.

you only know he is bad because of trying him out and using him. Which leads you to the opinion that his aerials dont really work.

he "technically" should be able to combo spacies like marth, and "technically" should be able to play Marth's grab game, and "technically" should be able do well with aerials because of being a fast faller and being able to move around well.

unfortunately, it doesn't work out like you would expect after actually trying it out.

it is just common knowledge now that Roy is bad. That's why you are so shocked.

hence why I said he looks good on paper.

 

[choknater]

i think one of the main things is that he doesn't really have many true combos

for a character like that you want to CAPITALIZE

but you can't :C

 

[Stevo]

yea probably

I agree, people don't realise how much better his side-b is over marth's though lol

I'm pretty sure I stole the "looks good on paper" thing from Kirby Kaze too.... but regardless, I agree with it. It is really frustrating actually how bad Roy really turns out to be.

 

[Varist]

We can discuss match-ups too.

Break it down into what matches matter and who does better.

I have no clue who gets ***** harder.
Mewtwo does better than Zelda
I can see Zelda doing better than Mewtwo. Let's discuss.
Mewtwo does better than Zelda
Zelda does better than Mewtwo
I can see Zelda being better than Mewtwo.
I think Mewtwo could be better, but need more Zelda POV
I think Mewtwo does better than Zelda. Could be wrong.

The most recent and most reliable commentaries on the Fox, Falco, Marth, Shiek, Jigglypuff, Peach, Falcon, and Ice Climbers all come from Taj's statements, if you can find a better source you're welcome to bring it up.

I have little resources for the Zelda matchup and obviously do not play Zelda competitively, so you'll have to bring your own arguments in. This is just a foundation.

 

[choknater]

zelda is about even with mewtwo on the fox and falco matchups. they both get bodied lol.

also zelda is WAYYYYYYYYY better than mewtwo against ice climbers.

 

[Varist]

zelda is about even with mewtwo on the fox and falco matchups. they both get bodied lol.

also zelda is WAYYYYYYYYY better than mewtwo against ice climbers.

All right, tell me why. Taj says Mewtwo has decent priority and speed against IC. You just have to focus on not getting WD->down smashed or grabbed (what else is new?). Apparently Mewtwo is supposed to be a nightmare for ICs if he can keep out their grabs and tilt infinites.

 

[Divinokage]

Pretty sure I saw M2k's Mewtwo 3 stock Vwins's Fox on Fd... chainthrow all day combined with the proper aerials.. pretty damn good. =P

 

[choknater]

hm alright well i don't know the m2 matchup from taj's perspective so i'll just talk about zelda vs ic's

zelda's jump height and short hop height make approaching her pretty hard with ic's. she can easily do retreating jumps with bair/fair and nail bad approaches. fsmash and jab are also good horizontal tools to prevent them from blindly wavedashing in. granted, ic's are really good at camping her, but this allows her to move around more and at least find a way to patiently get in, or force ic's to approach if she has a lead (though a lead is unlikely lol)

i also think ic's beats them both pretty badly though. zelda with camping, mewtwo with superior movement and damage

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Mewtwo is too fat to do well against Ice Climbers.

 

[Varist]

Neither stand a chance anyway.
I've seen Mewtwo beat Falco more than I've seen Zelda beat Falco.
Zelda does better than Mewtwo.
Mewtwo does better than Zelda.
Zelda does better than Mewtwo.
Mewtwo does better than Zelda.
I think Mewtwo could be better, but need more Zelda POV
Zelda does better than Mewtwo.

Mewtwo's priority is generally better than Peach's. Because Peach is floaty, Mewtwo can kill her comfortably with u-throw and f-air when he can get in, outspaces her D-smash with d-tilt so he can pressure her shield, tech chase with nair->grab, can catch her in her float with shadow balls and nair. Match is still hard as balls but better than Zelda could do imo.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Zelda does pretty good against falco, and has a really good anti pressure mixup that is much more dangerous for falco than zelda. She also has the ability to reflect lasers if falco tries to camp. Not to mention, camping is the wrong way to go against zelda.

Zelda does better against peach. she actually has answers to aerial camping, something mewtwo literally doesnt have.

Zelda actually beats ICs, i think someone already told you, but i didnt really read.

Zelda also has a better match-up against samus, ganon, and other characters.


tl;dr zelda outclasses mewtwo, i would divide them by tier even if they happened to be ranked next to each other.

 

[choknater]

haha well i mentioned zelda's tools vs ic's, but ic's definitely win. if you blizzard/ice block camp, he has very very little ways to actually combat them. this conditions her into staying away and trying to move around, which gives ic's the opportunity to slowly inch toward her with projectiles, or get under her jumps and punish.

being under zelda is the BEST position against her, and i apply this in every matchup. she is pretty free if you can get under her jumps haha. good zeldas though will really try to avoid this situation.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I dont know the specifics, but cosmo has never lost to trail and ive been told that zelda beats ICs by a few people. Basically zelda's dsmash is safe on ICs shield and kicks tend to shield poke or something like that. I think ICs can definitely win with that strategy you mentioned, but its probably pretty even/slight zelda

 

[Varist]

All right all right, my opinion has been changed. Zelda Queen of F tier,

BUT

Roy sucks ethnic ***, Mewtwo's pretty good better than Roy, Roy's only where he is because of Marth but Roy is balls to play.

So if Zelda is Queen Mewtwo is her Jack,

go MBR hail Mewtwo jack of F tier

 

[choknater]

haha i'd like to play against cosmo some day!! ahhh. i have a lot of experience in a TON of low tier matchups because of where i come from (209 area of california where the top players here play low tiers)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Haha well I'm sure you know more about that match-up than me, so i'm not gonna throw my weight around. My last post is basically just hearsay. I will suggest you play cosmo in 1 friendly, but be warned he is probably the most patient player in the world rivaling armada. And he plays that way in friendlies. And he enjoys playing that way. To practice for SMYM he just did more speed runs of OoT, and still beat everyone except darkrain.

FYI theres only 2 match-ups cosmo doesn't go zelda, sheik and falcon.

 

[Strong Badam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aQ6YGX-vNs
0:47
1:01

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amZAeGBnl
0:08
2:32

M2 gets little two-piece chaingrabs a couple times a stock. Maybe you're talking about semantics and what I call tech chases aren't chain grabs but I like to look at grabbing someone two or more times in succession without giving them a gap to react chain grabbing /shrug

edit: you are, so just look at every instance of chain-grabbing before and rewrite it as tech chasing in your mind.

yeah that's tech-chasing. m2 has to react to a tech option including jab resetting tech in place. it's strictly worse than a real chaingrab (which Zelda has against fastfallers)