Q&A Official FAQ and QnA Thread - Ask Your Questions Here!

[Bones0]

The other night I was beating up on a CP Fox as Falco and found something I hadn't seen before. When standing next to Fox on a platform, I would drop through and bair instantly, causing me to stay on the platform.

What is the term for this and does it have any value in matches?

It's usually referred to as a platform cancel. What happens is when you drop through a platform your character starts out still above the platform (obviously if chars dropped through immediately it'd look like they were teleporting). If you attack someone and it hits before you dip below the platform, you can land instantly. You can replicate this in Training Mode (giving a Starman to the CPU will prevent them from getting knocked away) or V.S. mode by raising the CPU's handicap. Then simply drop through and bair them as early as possible. Not all attacks come out and keep your landing detection high enough for you to land on a platform though. It varies from character to character. Marth can do this with fair, spacies can do this with bair, and Luigi can do it with almost any aerial (because he falls so slow and most of his aerials come out really fast). Furthermore, when you are on a platform that is sinking downwards (PS or FoD as their they transform, the right side of the PS windmill, or the left side of the rotating plats on KJ64) you can do slightly later aerials. Falco normally cannot platform cancel a dair, but when you are on one of these sinking platforms you can drop through and dair and the platform will move low enough during hitlag so that he will be high enough to land on the platform.

As far as applicability, it definitely has some since you are just speeding up a normal situation. It's pretty rare to see people worry about doing it since the time spent falling below the platform usually isn't too much longer, and sometimes you actually will want to followup your move from the bottom level of the stage. If you ever have an opponent on a platform with a laggy recovery, you can do it then to get over to the ledge a little quicker than normal. You can L-cancel it the same as any other aerial, just L-cancel before your character goes into the landing animation.

 

[Swampler]

Thanks, Bones. Do you know of any tournament videos where its used effectively?

Also, when Marth uses SH double fair, is the 2nd fair auto-canceled?

 

[Bones0]

Thanks, Bones. Do you know of any tournament videos where its used effectively?

Also, when Marth uses SH double fair, is the 2nd fair auto-canceled?

I've never seen it really used effectively. I've done it myself and might even have a vid where I did it, but like I said before it didn't really help. I just happened to land a little quicker than usual. I would like to be able to use it for shield pressure if I ever remember to go for it, but even that is a really niche use. It actually happens out of shield drops more than anything else for me.

Marth's second fair won't AC if he SHed on level ground. All auto-cancelling is is landing right as a move comes out (no hitbox anyway) or right as it ends. You can check the hitbox and frame data thread in the corresponding character board. All of the threads list which frames moves AC on.

 

[iRobinhoood]

How do you post a livestream on the new forums? It won't let me edit previous stream threads OR make new ones.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

How many frames of invicibility do you get for grabbing the edge and at what frame can you let go of the edge?

 

[Bones0]

You have to wait 8 frames before letting go (exception: adult Link only has to wait 4 frames). I forget the invincibility, but if I had to guess I'd say 20. I know for a fact it's in Strongbad's "Ask Me Frame Data" thread if you really want to dig it up, or someone else might know off the top of their head.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Its closer to 30 frames extra after the 8 frames. I counted 38 frames total in a quick pass in dolphin, but i wasnt being very accurate

 

[Arcadia157]

What's an effective short term solution to getting over tournament jitters? When I play people in really close sets, my hands and legs can sometimes shake uncontrollably and it ruins a lot of matches for me. I know that for long term, I should be able to get over it over time with experience, but does anyone have any special rituals they perform during or in between matches/sets to stay calm? This past weekend I had a drink by my side for all my matches, but that didn't help much.

 

[Bones0]

Sometimes the harder you try to relax the more jittery you will be because you are so focused on your emotions and you end up getting inside your head. I try to take deep breaths, but I'm starting to think it's better to just focus entirely on the game itself so that you don't even have the ability to get nervous. You'll probably get what I'm talking about if you've ever started out a game playing great, and then towards the end of the match as it gets closer, you consciously recognize how close it is and make yourself nervous. If you can allocate your brainpower for gameplay instead of recognizing how scary a situation is, you will obviously not only get as nervous but will also play better.

That's sort of the stuff I'm still working on now because I have a hard time focusing on the actual gameplay during matches which leads to dumb autopilot movement, or I will revert to super old habits because I try to play "safer". For the rest of the nerves that are just ever-present from the time your set is called, I try to use that as positive adrenaline. Next time you feel nerves, just think to yourself, "alright, I have adrenaline coursing through my system to improve my reaction times. The more nervous I am, the faster and better I will play." That's actually the reality, but psychologists have realized that people who are extremely skilled and consistent with their craft do way better with adrenaline whereas the adrenaline only messes up people who aren't confident in their actions.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Oddly enough Ive found working out or getting some sort of cardio exercise in before a tournament can help keep you calm and playing sharp.

 

[pokemongeof]

I Have a question about Wombo COmbo.


K when SS threw Zhu toward Tang, Tang did a JC Shine to an UpSmash.
How did he do that? Waveshine in place and then Upsmash? or cancel the JC by pressing A?

 

[Xyzz]

If you see a wavedash animation he did a waveshine in place. If you don't he canceled the jump out of shine by pressing a (or c stick up).

 

[pokemongeof]

If you see a wavedash animation he did a waveshine in place. If you don't he canceled the jump out of shine by pressing a (or c stick up).

Yep. Looks like an In-place Waveshine to Upsmash.

Thanks!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

No, it was a shine usmash

 

[Jayk]

How does one DI when they get hit in an unusual direction by a move?

For example - Falco's Fsmash usually hits you forwards, so you could DI up or down.
However, what if you get hit by that awkward hit box that sends you upwards?
Can you then DI sideways as you would a normal upward hitting move, or do you still choose between up and down?

 

[pokemongeof]

No, it was a shine usmash

Oh ok. thanks Sveet!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How does one DI when they get hit in an unusual direction by a move?

For example - Falco's Fsmash usually hits you forwards, so you could DI up or down.
However, what if you get hit by that awkward hit box that sends you upwards?
Can you then DI sideways as you would a normal upward hitting move, or do you still choose between up and down?

Some hitboxes have different attributes, even on the same active frame. Think of marth's sword, for example, theres a tip and a non-tip. Your DI doesn't change what hitbox you are hit by, only your spacing.

 

[Xyzz]

How does one DI when they get hit in an unusual direction by a move?

For example - Falco's Fsmash usually hits you forwards, so you could DI up or down.
However, what if you get hit by that awkward hit box that sends you upwards?
Can you then DI sideways as you would a normal upward hitting move, or do you still choose between up and down?

You can DI that one any way you want to, like always
In case you're wondering about getting the maximum possible change in knockback angle: That would indeed happen by DI'ing sideways. Although it's rarely necessary, because the upwards hitbox doesn't combo too well anyways, and its killing power is limited as well

 

[pokemongeof]

I do find myself hitting an oppenent with a FSmash and sending them upward

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

try aiming for with your toes. Dont stand next to them and fsmash

 

[ManoxMano]

What are some tough MU's for Shiek? Considering learning a pocket char. to deal with her

 

[Xyzz]

Jiggs probably is the most annoying MU for her.

 

[PCwizCube]

WD OoS only gives Marth 1 frame of advantage over simply unshielding. The main benefit of the WD OoS is that you can move more quickly during the 15 frames of jumpsquat + airdodge landing lag. I frequently WD OoS just fine with just the L-trigger, and the thing to keep in mind is that airdodging is done by clicking the trigger with a full press. If you are light shielding, you can simply keep L/R held while you jump OoS, and then push the trigger further down to airdodge. It is virtually equivalent to a regular WD when you're not shielding, but your trigger finger starts slightly depressed instead of completely off the trigger.

However, since full shielding is usually the preferred shield mid-game, you shouldn't just try to light shield everything (it'd be harder anyway). Instead, you just need to learn to raise your trigger finger slightly so that you are no longer holding down the button part, and then repress it after you jump OoS. So a simple breakdown of how you would do it is:
1. Hold shield (fully pressed).
2. Jump
3. Release the trigger just enough to unclick.
4. Repress the trigger so that it clicks.

This method is pretty difficult if you haven't been WDing for a long time, but even with the fastest jumpers in the game (Fox, Samus, Sheik, etc. who are all just 1 frame faster than Marth fyi) it is possible to do consistently. You really just need to focus on doing steps 3 and 4 during jumpsquat. Marth has 4 frames of jumpsquat, so you have about that many frames in which to unclick and click the trigger.

Another alternative is to use a separate trigger for shielding and WDing. I use the single trigger method when I shield normally, but when I decided to learn to PS projectiles and incorporate shield stopping into my game, I trigger tricked my R button and used that trigger instead. I still use L for the majority of my shielding, but because I WD with L, I am able to PS/shield stop and WD out VERY quickly, and VERY easily. I could probably do it very well with a single trigger, but I'd inevitably have to focus a little more to make sure I'm releasing the trigger at the right time and repressing it fast enough to get a good WD. I also enjoy the benefit of being able to easily L-cancel with L after shai dropping through platforms with R.

Hopefully that answers more questions that it raises. lol If you shield with R, I would just highly recommend trigger tricking your L-button now (unless you L-cancel with it) for PSing, and then you can simultaneously practice shield stopping/PSing as well as WDing OoS. You don't have to actually even be PSing at first. Just go to FD in Training Mode and dash into shield (with L), then WD out (with R). Then you can do the same to practice only using R for whenever you find yourself shielding regularly. Also, the reason I wouldn't advise trigger tricking the trigger you L-cancel with is because you will waste a tech attempt every time you L-cancel. If you haven't already, learn to L-cancel with a light trigger press so that if you get hit out of your SHFFL you can still tech. If you hard-press a trigger to L-cancel and get hit right after, you won't be able to tech (there is a 40 frame window allowed between tech attempts to prevent mashing for techs).

Hey, sorry I never replied to this, but I've been practicing a lot with your advice and it's been extremely helpful! I used to shield and wavedash with R, but now I try to always do shield with L and wavedash with R, and I'm much more consistent with WD OoS I also L-cancel with light L now so I can still tech. So yeah, thanks again! :D

Also another question (for anyone):
How many frames does it take for a shield to come up? I looked through M2K's melee info and couldn't seem to find it :/

 

[Bones0]

Hey, sorry I never replied to this, but I've been practicing a lot with your advice and it's been extremely helpful! I used to shield and wavedash with R, but now I try to always do shield with L and wavedash with R, and I'm much more consistent with WD OoS I also L-cancel with light L now so I can still tech. So yeah, thanks again! :D

Also another question (for anyone):
How many frames does it take for a shield to come up? I looked through M2K's melee info and couldn't seem to find it :/

Glad I could help. Shield comes up on the very first frame for all characters. Yoshi's is obviously a little weird and his actual shield doesn't appear until frame 7, but he's invincible frames 1-6 anyway.

 

[Rarik]

Why is team attack used in doubles tournaments? I'm pretty new to the smash competitive scene and don't know the reasoning behind it, but I've noticed that every tournament plays with it on.

 

[Xyzz]

A few reasons spring to mind:
- some attacks / projectiles can't really be challenged head on, but you rather need to take advantage of the ending lag. Two players can create ridiculous walls if they don't have to worry about hitting each other
- you've got to be more weary of what you do in general.
- saving your team mate by jumping out and hitting him upwards / towards the stage is pretty cool and a skill worth testing
- also saving them from even flying off stage by hitting them with a weak move after the opponents got a f smash or something else that would kill them / at least send them offstage

So, I'd say (and most people would probably agree) that the gameplay with team attack on is deeper and more interesting in general.

 

[Bones0]

I am pretty sure they actually used to have Team Attack off in the older tournaments, but they switched it on for reasons like Xyzz listed. I would also add it makes edgeguarding and punishing players from your teammate's grabs extremely easy because you don't have to worry about hitting each other. I spent like 30 minutes trying to find an example, but couldn't find any team vids older than '05 MLG. Team Attack being on just introduces a lot more skillful elements into the game.

 

[john!]

Why is team attack used in doubles tournaments? I'm pretty new to the smash competitive scene and don't know the reasoning behind it, but I've noticed that every tournament plays with it on.

falco

 

[Rarik]

Thanks for the answers.

 

[Arcadia157]

Was playing some friendlies with some friendly friends a couple months ago and this happened. Someone explain this to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxuKf0oVFvM

 

[Bones0]

Was playing some friendlies with some friendly friends a couple months ago and this happened. Someone explain this to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxuKf0oVFvM

It is a variation of Swordsman Spiking. Dphanna gives a general explanation in the description. I'm not sure I agree with his assumption that the two are unrelated though. I have really limited knowledge on the technical workings in this aspect of Melee so I likely wrong, but my theory is that it's directly related to the Invisible Ceiling Glitch. Marth's Counter acts as a sort of shield, and the GUA is considered a ground attack. I don't think anyone knows exactly why the Invisible Ceiling Glitch happens, unfortunately. Luigi players in particular have found they can intentionally do it by WDing into moves on shield. I believe the running theory is that the glitch is directly related to your velocity, which I think makes sense since a lot of the attacks that seem to trigger the glitch tend to have that weird boost sensation (GUAs from the ledge and dash attacks are what I normally get Counter-spiked by). Example

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yes. Once you are affected by the ICG, every move that hits you will continue to "spike" you until you touch the ground. In phanna's video, the people are hitting a shield and then being hit themselves soon after (activating the ICG). You can then see them repeatedly get hit and get spiked every time. Marth and Roy's counters tend to activate the ICG by their nature (a block followed by an attack). I have seen some silly roy edgeguards that were along the lines of Arcadia157's video

 

[Bones0]

Yes. Once you are affected by the ICG, every move that hits you will continue to "spike" you until you touch the ground. In phanna's video, the people are hitting a shield and then being hit themselves soon after (activating the ICG). You can then see them repeatedly get hit and get spiked every time. Marth and Roy's counters tend to activate the ICG by their nature (a block followed by an attack). I have seen some silly roy edgeguards that were along the lines of Arcadia157's video

Do you know what determines if an attack triggers the ICG in the first place?

 

[Ripple]

Do you know what determines if an attack triggers the ICG in the first place?

Doraki explains that in the video you linked yourself called "invisible ceiling"

unless you mean something else

 

[Bones0]

Doraki explains that in the video you linked yourself called "invisible ceiling"

unless you mean something else

It seems really random though. I see people get hit by Fox's usmash OoS immediately after shield stun ends without getting the glitch all the time, but when Luigi WDs into it, somehow it seems to always happen. Marth's counter is even more random. I have tried to replicate it by doing a GUA off the ledge into a Marth counter, but I couldn't get it to work even with 10 tries.

 

[Ripple]

If you want a guanteed ISG then do a jump counter with marth on ganons jab and make sure he doesn't hit the ground

 

[Sauce1779]

Is there a place where I can go to get advice and ideas about how to play in a teams match? I cannot find anything and I am just starting to get into 2 v 2's on a serious level.

 

[Bones0]

There are really not many sources for 2v2 advice. You can usually ask about it specifically in your character's main thread in the character-specific forums, but THIS is also a good write-up to get you started (CTRL+F "Teams"). Other than that, you can always watch videos and just study them on your own.

 

[gravy]

I'm trying to understand how the mechanics work that allow me to grab pivot grab the ledge out of dashes and jumps, specifically as captain falcon. I don't even really get how the PC drop works either to be honest, but they must be the same mechanic. Is the concept to get forward momentum and then pivot on the edge without starting to walk or run away?