Important Official Custom Moveset Project

[Raijinken]

Others have answered this, so I'm just offering a comment: It's not the only bit of 'fail' to come about from the character boards voting on their sets. Link totally lost out on Quickdraw Bow for the same reason, even though I've seen Link players who can use it to excellent effect.

Yea, I remember reading some discussion on there being essentially no point to Quickdraw due to how little it hurts.

There've been a lot of improvements in understanding most customs now, I think now that we clearly don't have any pressing deadlines we'll be able to come up with much more effective lists.

The deadline removal will also give us a chance to ponder and make an informed and well-considered decision on whether or not any are in need of banning (whether for Chakram Infinites or for other degenerate play). We also know enough to make sure some rumors are dispelled before consideration, too. Though we'll need to do a bit of re-investigation on options now that the new patch is out.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'm honestly surprised people still complain about gust cape

Like do you just not know shocking cape gives him a kill confirm off grabs now or do you really think a slightly better edgeguarding tool in a game with god recoveries and magno ledges is just that broken?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm honestly surprised people still complain about gust cape

Like do you just not know shocking cape gives him a kill confirm off grabs now or do you really think a slightly better edgeguarding tool in a game with god recoveries and magno ledges is just that broken?

Why not both? (Although I know some people just hate windboxes because reasons idklolbffjill.)

For real though, I didn't know Mario could confirm into Shocking Cape off a grab for the kill. It's weird that RAR bair can't fill a similar spot though if you ask me.

On a different note, Pikachu's Thunder Wave infinite seems to be patched out. Source.

 

[DunnoBro]

Why not both? (Although I know some people just hate windboxes because reasons idklolbffjill.)

For real though, I didn't know Mario could confirm into Shocking Cape off a grab for the kill.

It's just dthrow > shocking cape

I think it only registers as a true combo in training mode against fast fallers. Registers vs sheik but not ROB and Ness. My friend using Ness the other day insisted he was trying to air dodge and couldn't avoid it, though. So it might be connecting at the frame just before the air dodge can come out.

It's weird that RAR bair can't fill a similar spot though if you ask me.

RAR Bair does, it just isn't as strong and the time needed for the RAR part makes it not a true combo.

(Though the fact it's not a true combo is actually helpful in default, since it's more damage, better positioning, and a air dodge can convert into a kill for mario)

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

@Illuminose I'm not making an executive decision on that. Figuring out how to discuss the future of customs with the community is a big part of why I'm not jumping to do stuff right now. Our community is really divided with a lot of people sticking to really insulated parts of the internet instead of coming to smashboards, and bringing people (of all types; I'm definitely 100% against cool kids club closed door decisions) together to actually discuss stuff and make reasonable, informed decisions is difficult. I'm working on it, but it's hard...

 

[W.A.C.]

Whatever you guys plan to do to try keeping customs relevant, contact M2K. With future MVG events, he would be very interested in keeping customs alive. The only custom I know of he considered banning was explosive balloons because you basically couldn't edge guard Villager which is extremely stupid.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Whatever you guys plan to do to try keeping customs relevant, contact M2K. With future MVG events, he would be very interested in keeping customs alive. The only custom I know of he considered banning was explosive balloons because you basically couldn't edge guard Villager which is extremely stupid.

I'm out of the loop. Why would M2K care about customs?

 

[W.A.C.]

I'm out of the loop. Why would M2K care about customs?

If customs were legal, he would primarily main Mii Brawler, Palutena, and Charizard. The game is nowhere near as fun for him without customs.

 

[Raijinken]

If customs were legal, he would primarily main Mii Brawler, Palutena, and Charizard. The game is nowhere near as fun for him without customs.

I'm glad he shows interest in characters who need customs. That says something, even if no one seems to give him that much credit in Smash4 (well, relatively).

 

[clydeaker]

There's a total of 53 notches on both the Height and Weight sliding bars in the Mii Maker. This means their are 2,809 possible combinations of height and weight. whether or not each individual combination plays differently from each other I do not know. The yellow lines represent the marked notches on the 3DS Mii Maker. The red X's represents the points placed at every 1/4 size. Height is represented by the Y axis and Weight is represented by the X axis.

Spoiler

(X,Y)
(26,26) - Default Mii Brawler size.
(0,0) - EVO custom Mii Brawler size.
(0,13) - EVO custom Mii Swordfighter size.
(0,13) - EVO custom Mii Gunner size.

 

[Raijinken]

There's a total of 53 notches on both the Height and Weight sliding bars in the Mii Maker. This means their are 2,809 possible combinations of height and weight. whether or not each individual combination plays differently from each other I do not know. The yellow lines represent the marked notches on the 3DS Mii Maker. The red X's represents the points placed at every 1/4 size. Height is represented by the Y axis and Weight is represented by the X axis.

Spoiler

(X,Y)
(26,26) - Default Mii Brawler size.
(0,0) - EVO custom Mii Brawler size.
(0,13) - EVO custom Mii Swordfighter size.
(0,13) - EVO custom Mii Gunner size.

Worth noting, the 3DS and Wii U Mii Makers have different numbers of ticks. If I recall, 32 notches is 1/4 on the U version.

 

[clydeaker]

Worth noting, the 3DS and Wii U Mii Makers have different numbers of ticks. If I recall, 32 notches is 1/4 on the U version.

Oh, I did not know that. Thank you for letting me know.

 

[DunnoBro]

Mii gunner grenades got nerfed too. The hitbox disappears on clash rather than just coming out now

 

[Electric91]

M2K confirmed that he'd drop out of smash 4 singles tho. Source

It just feels once again that customs are being planted in its coffin.

Which is why i made the other thread so "hastly". I think something MUST happen before its too late.

 

[Balgorxz]

M2K confirmed that he'd drop out of smash 4 singles tho. Source

It just feels once again that customs are being planted in its coffin.

Which is why i made the other thread so "hastly". I think something MUST happen before its too late.

I'm pretty sure customs will be patched in the next update (mii customs started being patched in 1.10) because custom for glory is really popular.
that's the biggest thing that could happen for customs.

 

[DunnoBro]

With the changes to miis, I think it's more important to push for them right now instead of all customs. It's a much easier fight that leads back to the custom fight if they continue patching customs.

 

[Balgorxz]

With the changes to miis, I think it's more important to push for them right now instead of all customs. It's a much easier fight that leads back to the custom fight if they continue patching customs.

I agree with this, a lot of people realized it already and are starting with the mii debate first, at least we have japan from our side this time.
legalizing EVERYTHING and now won't be well received by extremely conservative players, let people adjust.

 

[DunnoBro]

Well before we didn't think miis would take priority over other customs for balancing. (Though we should have if japan uses them)

Would definitely be nice to see m2k and dapuffster stick around, too. M2k says he only likes customs but he actually plays(and I believe mains) brawler most.

 

[Electric91]

I'm pretty sure customs will be patched in the next update (mii customs started being patched in 1.10) because custom for glory is really popular.
that's the biggest thing that could happen for customs.

The biggest thing that happened for custom was Evo.

I'm not sure that the tournament mode FG w/ custom on will change many of the peoples mind. We don't know with what mindset people are even joining these tournaments.

It could be someone joining to troll, someone who's joining for competitive, we'll never know.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The biggest thing that happened for custom was Evo.

I'm not sure that the tournament mode FG w/ custom on will change many of the peoples mind. We don't know with what mindset people are even joining these tournaments.

It could be someone joining to troll, someone who's joining for competitive, we'll never know.

It'll provide exposure (even though equipment can be used too) and Nintendo probably collects data on custom usage like they do everything else in FG.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

All this makes me really wish we had the ability to just select custom moves on the Select Screen without equipment or premade custom sets.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

All this makes me really wish we had the ability to just select custom moves on the Select Screen without equipment or premade custom sets.

Yeah, it's really quite silly that all this debate stems from menu organization of all things.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Yeah, it's really quite silly that all this debate stems from menu organization of all things.

I honestly think there wouldn't even *be* a debate at all if it was easier to select customs.
Then again, im probably biased toward being pro-customs from the outset. This stuff about villager and sonic would have maybe given me pause about customs being a thing, but I use Ganon and Arceus knows he desperately needs customs.

 

[DanGR]

What's the reasoning for 1/4th height for Mii Swordfighter? (I've been using shortest/skinniest) Is the extra range really that important?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yeah, it's really quite silly that all this debate stems from menu organization of all things.

It's even ironic because Sakurai was so proud of the Menus during the "Picture of the Day" era.

 

[Epok]

As of right now My community is a non customs environment. But Mii fighters are not something that is really being addressed, mainly because no one plays them or thinks that they are viable outside of the CMP. I am working on a way to strike a balance between having options for the mii fighters to retain their "create a character" feel with out being locked into a "defualt" made by people who don't play or even care about mii fighters at all. I came up with a few options.

1.) 3 sizes with 3-5 different sets. (can total up to 45 miis, which may be a lot)
2.) 3 sizes 1111, but player can swap out any two of those for a 2/3 (less individual miis to organize, but lack of choices on mii fighters)
3.) 3 sizes, full move set customization (only 9 miis, but maybe too much creative freedom for mii players)

I think that players who play the mii fighter would be locked into their choice for the whole set, meaning they cannot go back an edit their fighter once it has been made.

What do you guys think about this?

There have been a lot of threads popping up about this and I would like to find a middle ground where me can at least have some sort of structured system on how to handle this.

 

[Electric91]

To be honest, if we handled things more seriously, we'd consider the ban of a move and certain sets.

The things that AA is working on now for the newer update, should of been worked on way before Evo.

It's ridiculous to see such a stand still while almost every country is going against them, and this thread is STILL sitting on its butt, on the point of resignation.

This is now reduced to Mii fighters using their customs & their heights.

I really wish the community could find a solution together, it just failed that.

I'm giving customs exactly 3 to 4 weeks right now. If in a month nothing will happen, customs will have their official death ceremony on my end.

I'm still working as hard for their viability, just not very optimistic about the results anymore. Especially after what broke down on the thread I created. If that's the costume community right now, it's just become a big mess of free-away mindset.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

To be honest, if we handled things more seriously, we'd consider the ban of a move and certain sets.

I don't think that's an indicator of taking things more seriously.

 

[epicnights]

Honestly? It's not a matter of considering whether we should ban EBT or not. It's an absolute necessity. I live in SFL, which is very anti-customs, but whenever I beg the question of why customs are not good for the meta besides so-called "jank", EBT is always the one to be brought up. It is singlehandedly throwing shade on customs as a whole.

 

[Electric91]

I've started by banning it in my current custom tournaments.

I think it's too late though. It should of been brought up before evo.

I'm pretty sure everyone here knew the problems with those moves. EBT, Kong sets, etc.

Now that people have played against it, and are succesfully whining again, they probably won't acknowledge customs until another person/ TO will want to host a major with costums?

Am I willing to do that? Yes.

Am i capable of doing that? Perfectly capable.

Am I going to do it? Really depends on the outcome of this thread, mine, and how the community reacts. So far, everything I'm witnessing is not having a positive outcome in my decision.

 

[Zelder]

The smash community is borderline psychotic when it comes to bans. This policy of "ban first, test never" is very tiring. For God's sake, people are still complaining about Wind Kong.

 

[Electric91]

Hey, which is why i think kong cyclone & storm punch should be banned in SET. The move itself is VERY counterable. I mean honestly, i've put up a thread for this sort of stuff. And a bunch of negativity came up on there. I was not impressed.

 

[Raijinken]

It's even ironic because Sakurai was so proud of the Menus during the "Picture of the Day" era.

To be fair, aside from lumping Customs together with Equipment, and making both resultingly finite in selectability, and hiding all of the single player modes under Games&More, and having Smash Tour on the menu at all, the menus are really good in this game.

Hey, which is why i think kong cyclone & storm punch should be banned in SET. The move itself is VERY counterable. I mean honestly, i've put up a thread for this sort of stuff. And a bunch of negativity came up on there. I was not impressed.

Aside from the good part of the discussion we had, it's just hard to convince people of any sort of middle ground. At a glance (and I, at least, understand it was a work in progress), a lot of it looked like your suggested bans were backed entirely by "my players hate it so it's banned" logic. So that kinda turns off most pro-customs players, since it's not sound ban reasoning. On the other hand, anti-customs players don't see why you didn't just suggest banning any of them that can be remotely considered an upgrade, or banning them all.

It's just one of the many subjects where it's impossible to please everyone.

 

[Electric91]

Finding a middle ground is crucial. In a subject where many TO's are in their own little shell making their own rules, i'm just having trouble seeing the project work. It's like a business man who failed to sell his product, really. I don't think customs will be given another shot, unless another major will want them.
I'd host a custom major, only if I see that the project is finally solid. I've worked really, REALLY hard on customs to happen. For them to be dropped because of a community who is feeling lazy, doesn't feel convincing in the slightest from both parties.

I don't know what you're looking for as for reasons to ban, there can be 10 000 reasons, there doesn't seem to be one that is pleasing everybody. As it stands, it is just not going to happen, unless someone makes it happen.

I gave my shot, and like I said, my tournaments will have EBT banned. If in a month i never see a suitable response or something more convincing coming out from this project, I guess that'll be the end of it.

Good luck with the rest.

 

[Zelder]

The question becomes where do you stop? People don't like EBT, you ban it. People don't like Wind Kong, you ban it. People don't like Gust Cape, you ban it. People don't lik-oops we've banned all the customs that actually make a difference in the game. What's the point of using customs if people are so willing to capitulate on bans on things that have been proven to be defeatable?

 

[Sixfortyfive]

I would rather alternate between no-customs and all-customs tournaments than ban specific customs.

 

[Electric91]

We're not ban happy. EBT is probably the only one that would deserve it. The rest, i'd say, adapt.

Then again, I setup criterias as for "why" i'd ban moves, it just didn't please most of the people who replied to my thread.

If someone comes up with anything better, i'll be keeping an eye. In the meantime, this is what we'll work with.

I would rather alternate between no-customs and all-customs tournaments than ban specific customs.

That's what we're doing right now.

 

[Thinkaman]

EBT is worth considering for a ban as long as the balloons can float through stage geometry. Villager ledge camping is the most overrated thing ever, but it's still one of the only things you could call objectively stupid and bad for the game. The crux is that it's vaguely incompatible with our community's (TOTALLY MADE-UP HOMEBREW) time out protocol.

I think EVO made a complete mockery of any notion that Kong Cyclone deserves a ban, but I empathize with the sentiment. It's clearly the most poorly designed/programmed move in the game, and simply a cruel move against weak, newer players. Yeah, complaining about Kong Cyclone is admitting you are bad at the game, but players who are bad at the game are players too.

I am also skeptical that HSB warrants a ban, but I can accept the argument as coherent.



The idea that anything else is even worth talking about a ban for is ludicrous. Like, Gust Cape? Gust Cape? What the ****.

(Note: Thunder Wave would have been on this list before this patch.)

 

[DanGR]

These customs with relatively high skill barriers don't exactly encourage more newer players to join in on the "fun."

There's a line you have draw somewhere... It's hard to favor a strictly "competitive" ruling on the issue that also happens to alienate 1/4th of my scene. I'm the most "Spike"-minded of the players in my area, but I can't play that version of the game by myself either...

 

[Teshie U]

Has anyone tested if buffs to characters like DK/Charizard/Palutena + their unaltered customs results in any new combos or setups?