Important Official Custom Moveset Project

[Raijinken]

Actually they can't. I checked it out and so have others (@ P Pegasus Knight ). Neither effects or stats apply.

Coming from someone who is pro customs, I don't see why miis have to lose them in a customs off meta if they can still be used in a custom off meta. They're what make those characters unique in that particular meta a la Rosalina or Ryu. The only exception would be if any of the moves were game-breakingly op, which despite complaints of helicopter kick (we'll see what happens tomorrow) doesn't seem to be the case

Well, that's news to me. I still expect people to be unreasonably stubborn in their implementation, since they're finitely limited. Maybe I'm just being too pessimistic, though. Time will tell.

 

[MajorMajora]

The reason that we treat Mii's the same as all other characters in a customs off meta is because they are effectively the same as all other characters. The only difference is in the game interface, which is effectively Sakurai telling us how to play the game. When have we ever cared about how Sakurai thinks we should play the game?

Letting Miis use customs is as dumb as only letting Mario, Charizard, and Sonic use customs. Because they are effectively their own 3 characters. Of course this doesn't take size into account, but that's so detached from custom moves that I feel like going to it as an argument would be desperate.

And yeah, there are all these arguments as to why allowing 2222/3333 or allowing full customs would be fine, but those also apply to all other characters. And they should. Because customs should be on. But I'm not going to sit here while people say that they want customs off but then give them to 3 characters due to an arbitrary exception, because that spits in the face of whatever reasoning, however much I disagree with it, that non-custom supporters had in the first place, because if any of their arguments held up then anything but 1111 mii fighters should be banned.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

The sheer hypocrisy in a ruleset that allows fully customized Miis (they can use equipment without Customs On, too) but no other customs is just baffling.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention, @ItalianBaptist .

To respond to this as clearly as possible: No they do not. It is easily verified.

Go make a Mii Fighter. Equip them with two high damage-increasing items plus an item that grants you something on spawn (like a Home Run Bat or so on). Now do the following battery of tests and you will see this is not true and there is no 'hypocrisy' involved!

Play them in training mode with Customs On. They will indeed gain equipment benefits. You'll spawn with a bat, do more damage than normal, etc. Take note of your damage values. If using Swordfighter, be careful because some of his moves have Sweetspot damage behavior.

Now repeat this test with Customs OFF. Notice your Mii Fighter does less damage despite supposedly having equipment. Notice they don't have a baseball bat.

"But the character select screen displays modified stats." - It is wrong. The screen simply does not bother to tell you 'ignore this lol this stat spread only matters in Customs On.' It's a visual oversight.

"But that's training mode." - I'm getting to that.

Leave training mode. Go to Smash mode. Repeat the tests (Customs On and Customs Off) with your heavily equipment-using Mii.

You will get the exact same results. Customs Off results in no spawned item, no damage increases. Customs On will give them Equipment benefits as you would expect.

Now go try it online in With Friends play modes. Same thing will happen.

EQUIPMENT DOES NOT FUNCTION IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM BEYOND AN INCORRECT NOTICE ON THE SELECT SCREEN IF THE CUSTOMS OPTION IS SET TO OFF. GO TEST IT.

I thoroughly researched this before I wrote my open letter encouraging TOs and ladder hosts to reconsider their stances on Miis. I made sure to look at pretty much every realistic 'gotcha' about Mii design freedom. Equipment was going to be a huge snag, so I checked it at length just to make sure it was as safe as possible. Tournaments cannot be compromised by Equipment on a Mii Fighter if Customs is set to Off.

I apologize for this being a very in-detail, defensive post, but after a certain point this becomes rather frustrating and I want to be very, very clear in shooting down any misconceptions.

 

[Raijinken]

Thank you for bringing this to my attention, @ItalianBaptist .

To respond to this as clearly as possible: No they do not. It is easily verified.

Go make a Mii Fighter. Equip them with two high damage-increasing items plus an item that grants you something on spawn (like a Home Run Bat or so on). Now do the following battery of tests and you will see this is not true and there is no 'hypocrisy' involved!

Play them in training mode with Customs On. They will indeed gain equipment benefits. You'll spawn with a bat, do more damage than normal, etc. Take note of your damage values. If using Swordfighter, be careful because some of his moves have Sweetspot damage behavior.

Now repeat this test with Customs OFF. Notice your Mii Fighter does less damage despite supposedly having equipment. Notice they don't have a baseball bat.

"But the character select screen displays modified stats." - It is wrong. The screen simply does not bother to tell you 'ignore this lol this stat spread only matters in Customs On.' It's a visual oversight.

"But that's training mode." - I'm getting to that.

Leave training mode. Go to Smash mode. Repeat the tests (Customs On and Customs Off) with your heavily equipment-using Mii.

You will get the exact same results. Customs Off results in no spawned item, no damage increases. Customs On will give them Equipment benefits as you would expect.

Now go try it online in With Friends play modes. Same thing will happen.

EQUIPMENT DOES NOT FUNCTION IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM BEYOND AN INCORRECT NOTICE ON THE SELECT SCREEN IF THE CUSTOMS OPTION IS SET TO OFF. GO TEST IT.

I thoroughly researched this before I wrote my open letter encouraging TOs and ladder hosts to reconsider their stances on Miis. I made sure to look at pretty much every realistic 'gotcha' about Mii design freedom. Equipment was going to be a huge snag, so I checked it at length just to make sure it was as safe as possible. Tournaments cannot be compromised by Equipment on a Mii Fighter if Customs is set to Off.

I apologize for this being a very in-detail, defensive post, but after a certain point this becomes rather frustrating and I want to be very, very clear in shooting down any misconceptions.

I greatly appreciate the information and testing suggestions!

However, I wasn't referring to the equipment as the hypocrisy. I was referring to letting Miis have a choice while other characters with customs don't. While I'd take something over nothing, I do not see fair reasoning behind giving Miis full customizability (or moveset options at least, if not size) while the rest of the roster that has customs goes without.

Of course, that also makes me a hypocrite, because I also say it's tough luck for the DLC characters. Oh well.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Well, fair enough. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[T0MMY]

"Custom Fighters OFF" is a stronger ruling than "Customs Banned".
"Items OFF" is a stronger ruling than "Items Banned".
Maybe you don't agree with it, but it doesn't make it any less factual - these arguments about the Equipment can be verified by anyone with access to the software and whether we believe Mii use Customs or are a special kind of character (or anything else) is irrelevant because (as even you stressed about the 'functionality' of rules): The game still functions the same no matter what our beliefs may be.

Competitively we are expected to exploit the characters to their greatest potential and it would be a travesty to the spirit of competition not to reward someone who successfully does that and downright anti-competitive to limit a character without warrant.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

For those wondering about timing for updates to the project sets, I was waiting for this patch to happen and to settle in a bit. There's some other stuff I kinda want to give a chance to happen too, but this patch was definitely relevant (the sets are now three patches behind). Also, I'm kinda thinking we don't need to do every character all over again and instead should probably pursue a format of soliciting which characters have problematic moveset exclusions and addressing just them (to make changes easier). By only changing a few characters who actually need changes, it will save people many hours I imagine since you can just implement a crisp, clean changelog.

I'll keep you guys posted as best I can.

 

[Mario49]

For those wondering about timing for updates to the project sets, I was waiting for this patch to happen and to settle in a bit. There's some other stuff I kinda want to give a chance to happen too, but this patch was definitely relevant (the sets are now three patches behind). Also, I'm kinda thinking we don't need to do every character all over again and instead should probably pursue a format of soliciting which characters have problematic moveset exclusions and addressing just them (to make changes easier). By only changing a few characters who actually need changes, it will save people many hours I imagine since you can just implement a crisp, clean changelog.

I'll keep you guys posted as best I can.

Where can I check the changelog once you're finished?

 

[ぱみゅ]

So.... we just suggest/complain now?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'll post again when we're getting started, but yeah, just bringing up characters here (and going to the specific boards as necessary) instead of up front going to all 55 boards is what I think the smart way will be here.

 

[DeLux]

Mario REALLY needs:
1333
2333
1133
2133

 

[Strong-Arm]

Pit and Dark Pit need 3133. I am honestly amazed that no one gave them this set right off the bat. I'm also surprised Ike doesnt have a 1211 set :/

 

[ぱみゅ]

Lucina really needs a 1113. Can't talk too much about Marth, but she does.
Sonic might need few more sets with Double Spring.
IMO, Duckhunt could use 1131, but not sure how other DHs feel about that.

 

[Illuminose]

Are you actually not considering banning any customs? I really don't mean to be rude or anything, but there wasn't even a discussion about thinking about/considering/making a decision on problematic moves. If you want to make an executive decision then whatever, but you're basically putting the nail in the coffin for customs if you don't make a concerted effort to address community concerns.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Default back slash is now far and away the best one for since the other two versions didn't get the startup buff. Not to speak for other Shulks for now, but I'm pretty sure we'll end up agreeing to have most of our sets changed to be every combo of Arts and Air Slashes with default Back Slash and Power Vision, with maybe an extra set with Dash Vision for anti-zoning.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Are you actually not considering banning any customs? I really don't mean to be rude or anything, but there wasn't even a discussion about thinking about/considering/making a decision on problematic moves. If you want to make an executive decision then whatever, but you're basically putting the nail in the coffin for customs if you don't make a concerted effort to address community concerns.

Which customs did well at evo?

...Oh right. None of them. None of them did. I mean, by all means, let's ban moves and strategies because we think they're "unfun" or "lame". But don't pretend, even for a second, that it's because they're broken or overpowered. Banning trip sapling or extreme balloon trip is the smash equivalent of saying "you only won because you used the noob tube".

 

[Nidtendofreak]

^That's not a good example: noob tubes are banned in competitive play. >_>

Ike boards probably need to redo most if not all of their custom sets. Several customs were effected by patches.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

^That's not a good example: noob tubes are banned in competitive play. >_>

Wait what?

Okay, the equivalent of "you just won because you spammed fireballs from across the screen".

 

[Illuminose]

Which customs did well at evo?

...Oh right. None of them. None of them did.

Right, because the results of one tournament mean everything. Bottom line is that customs are currently dead in the water as far as big tournaments are concerned, in large part due to logistics as far as TOs are concerned. Other main thing though is that players don't like customs because they make the game worse (at least in their eyes). And it's understandable why players feel that way It works for EVO because it's EVO and people will go anyways, but now that it's not pre-EVO time and most of the relevant US/world is running no customs there actually needs to be compelling reasons if you want people on board with customs.

At min Pikachu TWave/HSB, Villager Timber Counter/EBT, and Sonic Double Spring/HSD have shown that they aren't good for the game. That's the bare minimum. Pikachu gains a kill setup at 40% in an "infinite" (as in you die so it doesn't matter if it isn't infinite) that isn't even difficult to land. If you don't believe how crazy and trivially difficult to land this can be, watch ESAM's EVO matches, like vs Regi. Villager's customs camping strategy is degenerate and devastatingly effective. It makes the matchup absolute hell for characters that can't approach the ledge. It's a strategy that worked really well against some of the best players in the world (CaptAwesum beat Rain and was really really close to beating Larry Lurr after choking, then lost the Villager ditto in losers against SS which isn't really indicative of anything in this case). This isn't a joke and it confuses me that people find something like this healthy for the game where the best strategy against it is timing them out. The difference between this and a normal defensive character zoning is that there's actually interesting interactions and mixups in those cases. Tense, active matches that lead to a timeout are not the problem. Simple, repetitive strategies that do so are. To an extent, this is what applies to Sonic's Double Spring. Sonic is normally a spammy and silly character, but Double Spring poses a major problem in that his landings now pretty much lack counterplay. A lot of characters rely on punishing his landings, so being unable to do this is polarizing and leads to even more Sonic timeouts/degenerative campy play than normal, which is a pretty difficult feat. This is also applicable to the Hammer Spin Dash except that the Hammer Spin Dash is also silly in giving Sonic ridiculous reward on hit with guaranteed bury -> usmash. These custom moves/characters not only have results, they have strong results and plenty of matches indicative of how powerful they are.

As far as other moves? Tiny Brawler w/ Hurricane Kick, Twisting Fox, and Rocketbarrel Attack are demonstrably obscene moves from what we've seen in customs tournaments combined with EVO. Issues with these moves are pretty intuitive and can be boiled down to 'kill way too early' + 'guaranteed setups' + 'top tier character'. See: Dapuffster (13th at EVO)/NickRiddle (really good Florida results), Larry Lurr, and Angel Cortes. There's some other debatable stuff, but if you want to look at from a more results-oriented standpoint then these 9 moves have shown it. Doesn't mean to be an end-all be-all list, more a preliminary/necessary one.

I honestly don't get what's such a big deal about banning some of the problematic moves. Not only do you have a healthier metagame, but you also shake off many of the degenerative play/balance concerns currently associated with customs. The logistics issues will always exist and probably limit the adoption of customs, but it's a lot more appealing to players if there's actually a choice to solve the issues they have with it instead of letting them go in one ear and out the other.

 

[MajorMajora]

@ Illuminose
"Yeah, the only evidence we have is this one tournament, but since it's only one tournament, all 100% of our solid evidence on the impact of custom moves should be ignored, and we should instead make rulesets based on my theorycrafting that has almost no data backing it up".

Okay, I exaggerated there, but you really can't use the burden of proof argument and then not apply it to yourself in the same argument (I know you technically had numbers, but data on when some things can kill in ideal situations and stuff like that is moot compared to actual tournament results).

Not to mention there are some other holes in your argument
1. There are obviously a lot of moves you think are too strong. But if there are so many of them, they obviously are not overly-centralizing.
2. You assume there is no counterplay to some moves, but that means that they cannot be beaten by simply having more skill. They have been beaten. This tournament proves it. You could say that they only have no counterplay if the player plays perfectly. If that's the case, talk to me in 20XX.

Also, about your "Healthy metagame", here's a C&P of part of a post I made in the stage legality thread that summarizes my feeling on that.

Spoiler

Not a response to the above post, but holy crap can people stop banning things over their silly little opinions on what makes a meta "healthy"? There's so much wrong with this. First of all, many people have an oversimplified idea of what makes for a good meta. Many think that as long as nothing's broken everything's fine, so we should stamp out anything thats cares us. This is completely horrible and is the wrong way to go.

Centralizing strategies are a good thing. They draw attention, engage people, and force people to be inventive in working around them. Everyone hated villager, but Capt. Awesum's matches got more attention than any other match below top 8. They were Hype. And most people find villager horrible to watch. That says something about what these strategies can do. And even if these strategies are strong, and they get people to not play Sheik and not play on Smashville, then hallelujah. Amen. Praise Sakurai and all that is blessed because it's about damn time. The strategies are never as strong as people theorycraft them to be, so they probably won't be outright destructive, just a bit annoying to play against.

Oh, that reminds me, something being annoying is another horrible reason to ban something. People should learn to beat it. Adapt to it. But what do people do? They remove the challenge. They take away the obstacle. The moment Smash 4 shows signs of growth they stomp it out in a desperate attempt to keep things the same, maybe sans what characters are in the top tier (which, surprise surprise, is just one way a meta can grow). Because most of these strategies will become less strong and centralizing over time, and then smash 4 will become a game with many different powerful strategies. And that'll make an interesting meta of experimentation and new things. Or we could just ban anything stronger than Sheik on Smashville or with psuedo ban anything with more to it than flat+plats.

It's not our job to ban things we don't like, but to ban things we need to. A tear should be shed for each stage we must eliminate. People should have as many tools available to learn, exploit, explore, and counter in the smash meta game. This isn't a new concept, it's been around for years. It's basic fighting game philosophy that Smash seems to be incapable of getting it's head around, possibly since we need to ban so many things in order to get a unified ruleset (no items, only stock, etc.). I've supported many things in favor of a "better meta", but that was me trying to unban things that should have never been banned (custom moves, things being sent to the wasteland that is the counterpick list, a concept entirely devoid of logic or self-awareness). Ban culture is born of paranoia and hubris. Don't have excessive paranoia or hubris. Get direct TV. We do want Smash 4 to be a good and interesting fighting game, right? Or do we just want short-sighted comfort in a lack of excitement or upsets in what we arrogantly assume is they way things are meant to be, out of fear of the unknown? (See what I did there? I incorporated paranoia and hubriss as fear and arrogance to make an accusatory rhetorical question. ...I thought it was slick...)

 

[san.]

^That's not a good example: noob tubes are banned in competitive play. >_>

Ike boards probably need to redo most if not all of their custom sets. Several customs were effected by patches.

We learned quite a few things since the list was created:

Neutral B:
1. Non-fully charged default eruption hits the lowest out of all eruptions, while furious eruption doesn't go as low.
2. Furious eruption has more ending lag.
3. Tempest's windbox scales with rage and the opponent's %

Because of this, there's a definite tradeoff for all eruptions. Furious eruption can't just replace default eruption. Tempest is malleable, but it may be more difficult to gimp with it than get a simple eruption kill at the edge.

Side B:
4. Quickening of sideB has increased default sideB's landing potential, close combat's usefulness in neutral, and both of their recoveries.

It's a tradeoff for using either one of these. With Ike's improved normals, Ike doesn't need close combat in neutral, and may like the extra distance from the default.

upB:
5. Differences in upB changes how Ike players interact offstage offensively. There is also a learning curve for each one.

UpB choice is up to the player's preference. Diagonal aether is actually pretty difficult to master since the sweetspot distances can be difficult to gauge, and if Ike uses an aerial offstage, he ends up pretty low. I think upB3 is good, but it's so underused that it might not receive any space.

DownB:
6. Counter and Smash counter were heavily buffed in knockback.

Counter is probably the best now, while paralyzing counter is similar to smash counter, trading the easiness of landing the counter for how easily the heavy punish afterwards is guaranteed.

After looking at this, pretty much all of Ike's customs have tradeoffs and deserves usage outside of the super armor sideB since it's so slow (may have very niche usage).

 

[Raijinken]

Right, because the results of one tournament mean everything. Bottom line is that customs are currently dead in the water as far as big tournaments are concerned, in large part due to logistics as far as TOs are concerned. Other main thing though is that players don't like customs because they make the game worse (at least in their eyes). And it's understandable why players feel that way It works for EVO because it's EVO and people will go anyways, but now that it's not pre-EVO time and most of the relevant US/world is running no customs there actually needs to be compelling reasons if you want people on board with customs.

At min Pikachu TWave/HSB, Villager Timber Counter/EBT, and Sonic Double Spring/HSD have shown that they aren't good for the game. That's the bare minimum. Pikachu gains a kill setup at 40% in an "infinite" (as in you die so it doesn't matter if it isn't infinite) that isn't even difficult to land. If you don't believe how crazy and trivially difficult to land this can be, watch ESAM's EVO matches, like vs Regi. Villager's customs camping strategy is degenerate and devastatingly effective. It makes the matchup absolute hell for characters that can't approach the ledge. It's a strategy that worked really well against some of the best players in the world (CaptAwesum beat Rain and was really really close to beating Larry Lurr after choking, then lost the Villager ditto in losers against SS which isn't really indicative of anything in this case). This isn't a joke and it confuses me that people find something like this healthy for the game where the best strategy against it is timing them out. The difference between this and a normal defensive character zoning is that there's actually interesting interactions and mixups in those cases. Tense, active matches that lead to a timeout are not the problem. Simple, repetitive strategies that do so are. To an extent, this is what applies to Sonic's Double Spring. Sonic is normally a spammy and silly character, but Double Spring poses a major problem in that his landings now pretty much lack counterplay. A lot of characters rely on punishing his landings, so being unable to do this is polarizing and leads to even more Sonic timeouts/degenerative campy play than normal, which is a pretty difficult feat. This is also applicable to the Hammer Spin Dash except that the Hammer Spin Dash is also silly in giving Sonic ridiculous reward on hit with guaranteed bury -> usmash. These custom moves/characters not only have results, they have strong results and plenty of matches indicative of how powerful they are.

As far as other moves? Tiny Brawler w/ Hurricane Kick, Twisting Fox, and Rocketbarrel Attack are demonstrably obscene moves from what we've seen in customs tournaments combined with EVO. Issues with these moves are pretty intuitive and can be boiled down to 'kill way too early' + 'guaranteed setups' + 'top tier character'. See: Dapuffster (13th at EVO)/NickRiddle (really good Florida results), Larry Lurr, and Angel Cortes. There's some other debatable stuff, but if you want to look at from a more results-oriented standpoint then these 9 moves have shown it. Doesn't mean to be an end-all be-all list, more a preliminary/necessary one.

I honestly don't get what's such a big deal about banning some of the problematic moves. Not only do you have a healthier metagame, but you also shake off many of the degenerative play/balance concerns currently associated with customs. The logistics issues will always exist and probably limit the adoption of customs, but it's a lot more appealing to players if there's actually a choice to solve the issues they have with it instead of letting them go in one ear and out the other.

The thing about banning "problematic moves" is that the closest ANY of them have come to being provably degenerate is Extreme Balloon Trip since no Villager plays any other way if it's on - it actually centralizes his strategy to consist of extremely little other than planking. Even Kong Cyclone and Timber Counter don't come near as close to centralizing a character's strategy (nor even Sonic's customs, for that matter, as his strategy doesn't change from running and baiting). Hurricane Kick doesn't centralize Brawler's strategy, Twisting Fox doesn't (to me, though I haven't seen that much of it) centralize Fox's strategy, Rocketbarrel Attack doesn't centralize Diddy's strategy (unlike, say, Brawl bananas). All of these are situational kill moves like most characters have, bar, say, Sheik who gets (or got, haven't tested much since the patch) a 50/50 on dthrow, and a free trip home from every offstage Bouncing Fish kill.

I've spoken before about how Customs have always been given a guilty without trial attitude by the general community, largely because they're a pain to unlock. Nevermind any of the benefits, or the characters who would scarcely dream of running default with customs allowed, after all, why should those things matter when Villager and Sonic exist?

I support banning degenerate moves. But only moves that drastically and indisputably centralize a character's strategy. Villager goes from a defensive irritant to an unbudging planker with Extreme Balloon Trip. Sonic... doesn't change styles whatsoever, he just (like any character running a custom) gets better at his playstyle (which happens to, by total incidence, be a strategy the playerbase hates) (also please never let him go to Duck Hunt.... That's like ASKING to be camped). If his timeout strategies were so nonsensically good with customs but not without, I'd say ban whichever directly causes the issue (that sort of analysis is why I wouldn't ban Timber Counter). Brawler is just a character with a hated UpB, but Mario's near-identical shenanigans are overlooked. If the ONLY Brawler strategy was... wait, going for a read into a kill combo is considered entirely standard play. If the One Inch Punch glitch still existed and was the only thing Brawler players had justification to go for, then I'd understand a ban on Piston Punch. If Twisting Fox was so good (and had a guaranteed setup) that all Fox needed to do to win most matches (or matchups, on basically any stage) was to spam it or spam its setup until it worked, I'd almost see it being bannable (not that a Diddy move or total ban was ever seriously considered despite HooHah). But none of those (bar Extreme Balloon Trip) have proven degenerate. They're just boring. And boring is neither objective nor bannable.

 

[W.A.C.]

A lot of these sets are super out of date because of balance patches and opinions have changed massively on which sets are the best for specific characters. We really should have a list compiled of the most broken, controversial customs that should be banned from competitive play. If that's not done, customs are unlikely to return because of how salty some people became over specific customs. The only custom I specifically feel needs to get banned is explosive balloons. Villager was already a pretty polarizing character for a lot of matchups and his default balloons were viewed as such a problem to the balancing team that they got nerfed. A lot of players in favor of customs, such as @Keitaro, have specifically said that custom needs to go away if customs were to continue. I do not think trip sapling should be banned though. Without custom balloons, Villager loses a lot by not having his standard tree. With the nerf to Villager's default balloons, it makes planking even more difficult than before. I just see no reason to have that custom banned if explosive balloons are gone.

 

[Raijinken]

A lot of these sets are super out of date because of balance patches and opinions have changed massively on which sets are the best for specific characters. We really should have a list compiled of the most broken, controversial customs that should be banned from competitive play. If that's not done, customs are unlikely to return because of how salty some people became over specific customs. The only custom I specifically feel needs to get banned is explosive balloons. Villager was already a pretty polarizing character for a lot of matchups and his default balloons were viewed as such a problem to the balancing team that they got nerfed. A lot of players in favor of customs, such as @Keitaro, have specifically said that custom needs to go away if customs were to continue. I do not think trip sapling should be banned though. Without custom balloons, Villager loses a lot by not having his standard tree. With the nerf to Villager's default balloons, it makes planking even more difficult than before. I just see no reason to have that custom banned if explosive balloons are gone.

He's still fully able to plank default (as the "minimum" charge doesn't seem as low as, say, ROB's), the difference is that it's safer (in fact, completely safe) to contest, instead of risky and tricky for much of the roster. Trip Sapling is just trading a good kill read for a banana that can't be thrown.

 

[MajorMajora]

A lot of these sets are super out of date because of balance patches and opinions have changed massively on which sets are the best for specific characters. We really should have a list compiled of the most broken, controversial customs that should be banned from competitive play. If that's not done, customs are unlikely to return because of how salty some people became over specific customs. The only custom I specifically feel needs to get banned is explosive balloons. Villager was already a pretty polarizing character for a lot of matchups and his default balloons were viewed as such a problem to the balancing team that they got nerfed. A lot of players in favor of customs, such as @Keitaro, have specifically said that custom needs to go away if customs were to continue. I do not think trip sapling should be banned though. Without custom balloons, Villager loses a lot by not having his standard tree. With the nerf to Villager's default balloons, it makes planking even more difficult than before. I just see no reason to have that custom banned if explosive balloons are gone.

I'm hesitant on banning exploding balloons. I guess there'd be worse things, but I really think it's too soon. Not to mention there's proof it can be fought.

Exploding Balloons have not overtaken a major, and have therefore not been proven overpowered or over centralizing the meta. Therefore, a ban is hasty to say the least.

Sorry for shouting, but I really wanted to get that one across

 

[Illuminose]

@ Raijinken

Can agree on EBT > Timber Counter. The Double Spring really is a big deal with Sonic though. Trouble landing is why Sonic is manageable for a lot of characters. That move invalidates this and therefore bolsters Sonic's camping capabilities to unhealthy levels. His strategy doesn't change, but it becomes like twice as effective which is a problem. HSD is kinda whatever in this regard tbh, it's not really the biggest deal thinking about it. Kong Cyclone is up there too in terms of centralizing DK's play to degenerative levels. It's a replacement for well-played neutral, replacement for smart recovery, replacement for timed/precise edgeguarding, and replacement for an escape option. It's not about the move lacking counterplay, but more how it wholly overcentralizes DK's options.

Brawler's Up B is a LOT different than Mario's. Brawler's Up B kills, and it kills early. Unless you mean the power Up B that still kills nowhere near as early (and sucks ass), I don't really see how they're comparable... It's not a read either. Brawler grabs you at 40 and you are dead. He's also got this insane out-of-shield punish with the move as well. I'm speaking more in terms of this being plain unhealthy. Brawler barely has to work to kill you. He doesn't have to read, he doesn't have to get you to high percent. All he has to do is grab in the ~40-60 range and you die. It's only a problem on tiny Brawler because tiny Brawler is the one with fair -> up b. It's overcentralizing his gameplay in the sense that he barely has to think about the rest of his moveset except landing a grab or otherwise connecting the Up B. Fox has falling fair -> Twisting Fox and can frame trap air dodges ridiculously well when combined with the threat of his up air. You also can no longer go down and challenge his Up B, which is a large source of counterplay for Fox's recovery. It's not really overcentralizing his gameplay, but more giving him an option that is actually just plain too good for a top 10 character to receive. When we talk about customs bolstering top characters unhealthily, this is the type of move that comes to mind.

---

I don't really feel like entering a debate about what people think a healthy metagame is. What I will say is that I'm not really talking about an unhealthy metagame. I'm talking about moves that bolster specific characters by overcentralizing/simplifying their gameplay (to degenerate levels) or by giving them access to overpowered options. It's very easy to get rid of custom moves in this regard and moreover it's a major concern of the community at large.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Double Spring is not that good for Sonic, he loses a huge part of his combo ability and can't recover from nearly as low as with default Spring. Double Spring means Sonic is pretty much FORCED to camp, and to make things worse, his kill moves keep getting nerfed. If he loses the lead he's screwed.

Kong Cyclone is annoying at best, it's quite easy to beat, and DK himself is not a good character, so as long the move is attached to him, there's nothing too bad about it. About centralizing DK's game, why is it so bad? many characters Centralize on certain moves, like Sheik centralizes around Needles, Sonic around Spindashes, Pacman on Hydrant/Fruits, etc.

I kind of agree with Brawled though, Helicopter Kick is a dumb move for many reasons.

 

[Raijinken]

@ Raijinken

Can agree on EBT > Timber Counter. The Double Spring really is a big deal with Sonic though. Trouble landing is why Sonic is manageable for a lot of characters. That move invalidates this and therefore bolsters Sonic's camping capabilities to unhealthy levels. His strategy doesn't change, but it becomes like twice as effective which is a problem. HSD is kinda whatever in this regard tbh, it's not really the biggest deal thinking about it. Kong Cyclone is up there too in terms of centralizing DK's play to degenerative levels. It's a replacement for well-played neutral, replacement for smart recovery, replacement for timed/precise edgeguarding, and replacement for an escape option. It's not about the move lacking counterplay, but more how it wholly overcentralizes DK's options.

Brawler's Up B is a LOT different than Mario's. Brawler's Up B kills, and it kills early. Unless you mean the power Up B that still kills nowhere near as early (and sucks ***), I don't really see how they're comparable... It's not a read either. Brawler grabs you at 40 and you are dead. He's also got this insane out-of-shield punish with the move as well. I'm speaking more in terms of this being plain unhealthy. Brawler barely has to work to kill you. He doesn't have to read, he doesn't have to get you to high percent. All he has to do is grab in the ~40-60 range and you die. It's only a problem on tiny Brawler because tiny Brawler is the one with fair -> up b. It's overcentralizing his gameplay in the sense that he barely has to think about the rest of his moveset except landing a grab or otherwise connecting the Up B. Fox has falling fair -> Twisting Fox and can frame trap air dodges ridiculously well when combined with the threat of his up air. You also can no longer go down and challenge his Up B, which is a large source of counterplay for Fox's recovery. It's not really overcentralizing his gameplay, but more giving him an option that is actually just plain too good for a top 10 character to receive. When we talk about customs bolstering top characters unhealthily, this is the type of move that comes to mind.

---

I don't really feel like entering a debate about what people think a healthy metagame is. What I will say is that I'm not really talking about an unhealthy metagame. I'm talking about moves that bolster specific characters by overcentralizing/simplifying their gameplay (to degenerate levels) or by giving them access to overpowered options. It's very easy to get rid of custom moves in this regard and moreover it's a major concern of the community at large.

Perhaps I'm underestimating Helicopter Kick because I failed to see it (or the aforementioned combo) succeed even in Dapuffster's hands at EVO, but aside from killing somewhat earlier (on a character with somewhat weaker neutral), it seems essentially equivalent to Mario's uair uair UpB combo, except it's not a good recovery (though to be fair, none of Brawler's upB moves are very good recoveries as far as Smash4 is concerned).

 

[ぱみゅ]

Brawler does not really depend on Up Specials to recover as long as he has that Flip Kick.

That kick is ridiculous based on the fact it deals 25% damage, is comboed into, and kills. All in one.

 

[Illuminose]

Mario's Up B doesn't kill until high percents. Brawler's kills from a grab at 40. It's not a bit earlier. It's over half a stock difference.

@ ぱみゅ the recovery height is enough that Sonic can recover from the bottom blastzone of FD. Roughly similar horizontal. He loses his up throw spring combos but at the same time that's not the point. The point is to be evasive and impossible to landing trap. Double Spring facilitates this to a degenerate extent, making Sonic's camping virtually unpunishable/impenetrable for a lot of characters.

 

[thehard]

Just felt like saying this: the argument that customs make players "play worse" is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It's like trying to convince me that Robin's new d-throw "makes" players fish for grabs and play sloppily.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I play Sonic, so let me tell you that his followups are CRUCIAL. Without them he can't really kill anybody (that knows how to deal with HSD).
It becomes REAAAAAAAAALLY annoying but not "virtually unpunishable".

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Still convinced that Up-B3 is optimal for Wario for crazy-deep edgeguards and not needing to sacrifice your Bike to recover, and there's new consideration for Burying Bike for offensive pressure (your jump is very short and you can use Neutral-B while it's rolling without it getting the Bike, iirc), especially with Up-B3 doing wonders for his recovery in general.

If Widescrew has no gaps in its hitboxes, it might have an actual use for hitting the ledge snap vulnerability, though if Corkscrew does the same, it might still be outclassed. More testing is needed.

Wario's customs are so versatile, so interesting.

 

[Raijinken]

Brawler does not really depend on Up Specials to recover as long as he has that Flip Kick.

That kick is ridiculous based on the fact it deals 25% damage, is comboed into, and kills. All in one.

Maybe I'm missing out on something but Flip Kick is absurdly easy to intercept, like Zamus's but without even a fleeting fear of getting meteored. It's a bit like Diddy's recovery in that horizontally it's not bad, but vertically he's fairly screwed.

Also, unless I'm doing something terribly wrong (or it got nerfed in the patch), the full kick does 15% damage (maybe fractional on top of that). And that's on a 25/0 Mii (which I doubt would reduce the damage).

 

[Zzuxon]

So, yeah.
Pac-Man.
Needs Default Pac-Jump very much bad.
Thanks.

 

[W.A.C.]

So, yeah.
Pac-Man.
Needs Default Pac-Jump very much bad.
Thanks.

Whoever thought it would be a great idea to exclude this move from the list messed up badly.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What happened? What's the problem with whatever his sets have now?

 

[W.A.C.]

What happened? What's the problem with whatever his sets have now?

None of them have Pac-Man's standard up special. The variants aren't bad by any means, but his standard up special should not have been totally scrapped from the set list.

 

[Raijinken]

Meteor Trampoline gains no height on repeat bounces, and while it's a cool trap, the likelihood of it working against your opponent is pretty slim, even on-stage.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

What happened? What's the problem with whatever his sets have now?

Others have answered this, so I'm just offering a comment: It's not the only bit of 'fail' to come about from the character boards voting on their sets. Link totally lost out on Quickdraw Bow for the same reason, even though I've seen Link players who can use it to excellent effect.