Important Official Custom Moveset Project

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

I think whether 4 characters have customs of their own should have exactly zero impact on whether or not the 51 other characters should be allowed to use theirs.

Thought experiment: Flip it around and suppose the only characters with any customs at all were Palutena and the Miis. (Chosen because that's sort of their shtick.) Would you be opposed to their use of customs on the grounds that no one else had similar options, or would you accept it as their character gimmick?

Considering I've been advocating for free mii use in customs off (cuz when those flames in the background are orange, that is their gimmick), I think you know what my answer is

I'm actually pro customs, just trying to figure out how to effectively answer this question. It's been bugging me.

 

[Raijinken]

I'm sure someone can give a more detailed analysis than I, but the general results from EVO:

A lot of people used Customs. Customs did not win.

Top Four:
Zero winning with Default Diddy (played Default Sheik for the majority of the event)
Mr R in 2nd with Default Sheik
Nairo in 3rd with a single custom on Zamus, which had minimal use or impact
Abadango in 4th. His PacMan was default throughout (perhaps due to no custom set having default trampoline, some are speculating), and he used Custom Wario and Custom Rosalina for Sheik matchups.

ESAM did fine with Thunder Wave HSB, but didn't win ultimately. There was some salt-inducing Sonic and Villager camping, but ultimately both of them lost to Default Mario (Ally vs Manny) and Default Sheik respectively.

What we DID see was JohnNumbers' Wii Fit Trainer place rather highly. I also hear a Palutena came in top 32.

Commentators seemed to generally believe that customs did not cause upsets that could not be explained by player skill and character choice. Unfortunately several commentators still kept the anti-customs stigma (general ignorance of their functions, and D1's "that's the only time you'll ever see me use customs"), but ultimately, none of the anti-customs fears seem to have surfaced meaningfully.


Speaking of Abadango, though, it may be good to try to get some imput from the Japanese scene. I know the tournament I typically watch doesn't run customs, but some of the traveling players may have some input.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

And if I'm not mistaken, Vegas was basically cyclone free this weekend

 

[Raijinken]

And if I'm not mistaken, Vegas was basically cyclone free this weekend

DK didn't perform very well to my knowledge. I saw one who over-relied on it and got punished pretty hard. But Kong Cyclone is far from problematic against skilled players.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Amsa ran into some trouble with a custom Diddy at one point, but his skill was able to beat him out in the end. I also remember seeing Seagull get stomped by Ally's default Mario despite spamming HSD.

 

[Balgorxz]

so when are we expecting an update of custom sets?

 

[erico9001]

so when are we expecting an update of custom sets?

I asked @ Amazing Ampharos this at the start of April, and he told me probably not until fall. I don't know if he still stands by that time period.

Regardless, the Shulk boards are going to get back into our discussion of sets soon. There is a lot that can be improved in our sets list. We made a few bad decisions with what we decided on, and since then, we have made new discoveries that change the way we look at certain custom moves. It will be nice to not be so rushed this time.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Amsa ran into some trouble with a custom Diddy at one point, but his skill was able to beat him out in the end. I also remember seeing Seagull get stomped by Ally's default Mario despite spamming HSD.

Ally is just a super smart player. HSD also is not super effective against unless you're aiming to time him out. I don't aim to clock anyone. Prob could've done better if that was my approach.

 

[GeneralLedge]

So it's been brought up a couple of places as a considered idea,

Can we assign 'jank-factor' value to the more obscene customs, and 'anti-jank' values to the less useful customs, and put them together for set legality?

Clearly shown, characters with less janky customs are pretty great, but other characters with more janky customs are problems.

But instead of bans, we restrict. We say 'no dong cyclone unless one or two other customs are "bad". We say 'no EBT unless you don't run trip sapling'.

Is this a fair means to keep customs healthy? Or should we restrict even further and attribute only specific 'named' sets?


I might make a poll topic for this. Are there any other options for the future? ATM I have 'Anything goes' (aka what we have now), 'Point limit', and 'Named sets'. (I'd rather not have 'ban problem customs' be an option in the poll, though.)

 

[4_Number]

The only custom set I know for 1 of the Regular/Unlockable PC's is 3113 for

currently. I've already unlocked all of Lucina's custom moves however.

 

[Raijinken]

So it's been brought up a couple of places as a considered idea,

Can we assign 'jank-factor' value to the more obscene customs, and 'anti-jank' values to the less useful customs, and put them together for set legality?

Clearly shown, characters with less janky customs are pretty great, but other characters with more janky customs are problems.

But instead of bans, we restrict. We say 'no dong cyclone unless one or two other customs are "bad". We say 'no EBT unless you don't run trip sapling'.

Is this a fair means to keep customs healthy? Or should we restrict even further and attribute only specific 'named' sets?


I might make a poll topic for this. Are there any other options for the future? ATM I have 'Anything goes' (aka what we have now), 'Point limit', and 'Named sets'. (I'd rather not have 'ban problem customs' be an option in the poll, though.)

Can we assign a jank factor to defaults? Cuz as Thinkaman mentioned somewhere, a lot of defaults are jankier than a lot of customs.

If we use that as a balancing trick, there are characters like WFT and G&W who are so innately janky that their opponents would be forced to use customs to balance it out.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

@ Amazing Ampharos

Are we going to be re-doing any of these sets now that we're post-EVO? Most of them are good, but some, like Pac-Man, need some serious changes.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

@ Amazing Ampharos

Are we going to be re-doing any of these sets now that we're post-EVO? Most of them are good, but some, like Pac-Man, need some serious changes.

Yeah, we will, but not instantly. There are other important concerns that need addressed in the very short term.

 

[Raijinken]

Yeah, we will, but not instantly. There are other important concerns that need addressed in the very short term.

Can those be enumerated so we can contribute?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Can we assign a jank factor to defaults? Cuz as Thinkaman mentioned somewhere, a lot of defaults are jankier than a lot of customs.

If we use that as a balancing trick, there are characters like WFT and G&W who are so innately janky that their opponents would be forced to use customs to balance it out.

Wait, what? Since when is WFT considered janky? (Unless you mean custom WFT in which case I can sort of see it but last I checked she sort of needed customs to be viable to begin with? I feel out of the loop here.)

 

[Blobface]

Yeah, we will, but not instantly. There are other important concerns that need addressed in the very short term.

Figured I'd put this out there, but I feel we should try to maximize variety this time around. We have 10 sets, but only 1-3 are used per character and the other 7 are just mild variations. Barring blatantly useless customs like Dark Vault, every custom should appear at least once.

 

[Raijinken]

Wait, what? Since when is WFT considered janky? (Unless you mean custom WFT in which case I can sort of see it but last I checked she sort of needed customs to be viable to begin with? I feel out of the loop here.)

I mean, I'd call two heals and a ground-planting jab combo pretty janky, to say nothing of her standard hitboxes. But I also wouldn't call a lot of "janky" customs janky. It's a very subjective concept.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I mean, I'd call two heals and a ground-planting jab combo pretty janky, to say nothing of her standard hitboxes. But I also wouldn't call a lot of "janky" customs janky. It's a very subjective concept.

Sun Salutation and Deep Breathing heal her like 1-2% per use, and you can't exactly spam either of them.

 

[Raijinken]

Sun Salutation and Deep Breathing heal her like 1-2% per use, and you can't exactly spam either of them.

I'm fully aware. But spammability isn't what determines jank, after all. Header's pretty wonky, too, as far as projectiles go.

Anyways, I just think it's worth noting that being a custom should not be a prerequisite for being considered janky.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Anyways, I just think it's worth noting that being a custom should not be a prerequisite for being considered janky.

Bit of a disconnect: When I said 'jank value' I meant sort of on a more... obviously disruptive outlook. ie. Kong Cyclone, EBT, Trip Sapling, possibly Tornado Kick if you want to include Miis...

If jank is a broader term than I assumed, then oops misinformation in concept. Although the above moves I've heard a lot of frustration against, while WFT/G&W I have not.

Another part of it is the assumption that 1111 sets aren't considered 'janky' in this group. We ultimately can't ban 1111 in customs-on, because... Well, it's available, and the default. Sheik and Diddy players'll cut our heads off in our sleep.

So if a 'jank value' is assigned, it's assumed 1111 across all characters is the acceptable level of 'jank'. The question is if EBT/TornadoKick are equal to Needles/BouncingFish or Bananas/MonkeyFlip in how obscene they are. A very difficult call to make.

...One wonders why people complain about customs so much when Sheik and Diddy have much more obnoxious tools in default.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

...One wonders why people complain about customs so much when Sheik and Diddy have much more obnoxious tools in default.

It's possible that they have trouble saying that because it's not something they can shoo away without calling the game as a whole "jank."

 

[b2jammer]

At some point, you have to consider that in the customs meta, all moves are available, so 1111 seems kind of arbitrary at this point. No matter how you look at it, customs meta and default meta are going to be different, and don't exactly transition between each other well. Agreeing with @ Raijinken here, 1's should be given a "jank factor" alongside 2's and 3's, if only to keep Bouncing Fish, Monkey Flip, etc in proper alignment with the other moves. (where did this whole "jank" thing start, anyway? I feel like I missed something big - or not XD)

 

[Raijinken]

Bit of a disconnect: When I said 'jank value' I meant sort of on a more... obviously disruptive outlook. ie. Kong Cyclone, EBT, Trip Sapling, possibly Tornado Kick if you want to include Miis...

If jank is a broader term than I assumed, then oops misinformation in concept. Although the above moves I've heard a lot of frustration against, while WFT/G&W I have not.

Another part of it is the assumption that 1111 sets aren't considered 'janky' in this group. We ultimately can't ban 1111 in customs-on, because... Well, it's available, and the default. Sheik and Diddy players'll cut our heads off in our sleep.

So if a 'jank value' is assigned, it's assumed 1111 across all characters is the acceptable level of 'jank'. The question is if EBT/TornadoKick are equal to Needles/BouncingFish or Bananas/MonkeyFlip in how obscene they are. A very difficult call to make.

...One wonders why people complain about customs so much when Sheik and Diddy have much more obnoxious tools in default.

I generally agree with this post, but I'd like to question the notion of default being un-bannable. I won't argue it can't be removed from the menu, but I'd rather draw attention to the fact that neither can any non-DLC non-hidden stage. Defaults are just as rule-bannable as everything else. Unlike custom moveset slots which have the ability to "passively" ban things via exclusion (the oft-pondered "banned combination"), that option isn't available with defaults. It's an easy CSS check, though, to know if someone's running default or not: there is no stat circle on default, while there is one for any custom loadout.

That, of course, doesn't mean a Sheik can't just run Needles Bouncing Fish Vanish and Gravity Grenade as their one low-impact custom in an effort to fool the unobservant, but really, unless you include a Gentleman's Rule for customs ("You can use Defaults if I agree to allow it) it's just generally harder to enforce.

On top that. it'd be an actual forced change to most players, instead of the inverse which is an attempted ban on many characters' viability. This, ultimately, is why as much as I despise default Sheik and Diddy, I think it's the attitude towards customs that should shift from "[Unlockable Party-mode] Custom" to "Special Loadout" (sorta like Marvel or Skullgirls or Streetfighter's assists), as a means of more accurately portraying variable special moves. It really should be a matter of each character being allowed their best option (even if we have to poll it down to a single set without respect to matchup) instead of accepting this power discrimination based on arbitrary hidden-ness and number.

It's possible that they have trouble saying that because it's not something they can shoo away without calling the game as a whole "jank."

Jank's an excuse word to begin with. It essentially means "anything outside the sayer's comfort zone," and that's not something that we should restrict the use of. If the whole game is jank, someone needs to improve. But if they think a throwable trip-on-hit is less jank than a static trip-on-hit, then there's really no way to argue with their bias.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Anywho,

- Anything goes
- 'Janky points' system
- Named sets (Calling 2222 Ike 'Windy Ike' and making it a universal, for commentary and understanding of the character)

Are there any other solutions that could be considered, for controlling how customs are determined?

 

[b2jammer]

Anywho,

- Anything goes
- 'Janky points' system
- Named sets (Calling 2222 Ike 'Windy Ike' and making it a universal, for commentary and understanding of the character)

Are there any other solutions that could be considered, for controlling how customs are determined?

- One legal moveset per character (if not 1111, then the 1111 set is banned for that character).
- One non-1 move per set (1121, 3111, 1311, etc)

 

[GeneralLedge]

I highly doubt anyone would agree with either of those.

 

[Raijinken]

I highly doubt anyone would agree with either of those.

The sad thing is, a lot of people would agree to those, because either would essentially amount to admitting defeat for customs on the grand scale, and that's what they want.

Customs are one of those things in Smash (like stock/time settings, and to a lesser degree stage selection) that is super-divisive because there is no room to compromise meaningfully. Implementing customs in a gimped form, at least in my opinion, means you may as well not run them. Limiting characters to The One Set To Rule Them All is a cool idea, but it's not customs, it's manual balance, and results in the exact same narrow limits (if perhaps more "fair") as running defaults, at the arguably-worth-or-not cost of still having to unlock at least the ideal set per character. It really is a matter of all or nothing.

Of course, how to implement that all-or-nothing is against us when Sakurai went out of his way to make it hard to use the system.

 

[b2jammer]

Of course, how to implement that all-or-nothing is against us when Sakurai went out of his way to make it hard to use the system.

The one big reason I'm anti-customs in the first place. If there was a way to unlock all customs with one click that doesn't involve Powersaves (and preferably doesn't cost any money IRL), then I'd have no problem with them.

 

[Raijinken]

The one big reason I'm anti-customs in the first place. If there was a way to unlock all customs with one click that doesn't involve Powersaves (and preferably doesn't cost any money IRL), then I'd have no problem with them.

As a completionist, I didn't have any qualms grinding them out on both my 3DS and my U, but I understand most people aren't like that, especially not most top-level competitives.

But I meant the inability to just select them piecemeal at character selection via some sort of mini menu like choosing a name, instead of having to go out to a menu, make the sets, then go back in and select them.

 

[Krysco]

It's funny how ever since Melee we've had this lovely ingame currency in the form of gold coins that are very easy to collect by doing basically anything and yet the only thing they are used for is buying trophies and Crazy Orders...and I guess Classics higher difficulties and Trophy Rush. They could have been used to buy hidden characters, hidden stages, music, equipment and customs but nope, they pretty much exist just to try different ways to get trophies.

Also, I keep seeing people mention that customs are going away, did EVO show something I'm unaware of? I don't recall customs causing any noticeable upsets. Were the spectators simply not happy with it or did the TO of EVO consider the time it takes to set up customs a waste? Or is it just speculation at this point? I'd like for the customs meta to still exist and actually co-exist with the vanilla meta even though I personally only want to participate in the latter.

 

[Raijinken]

It's funny how ever since Melee we've had this lovely ingame currency in the form of gold coins that are very easy to collect by doing basically anything and yet the only thing they are used for is buying trophies and Crazy Orders...and I guess Classics higher difficulties and Trophy Rush. They could have been used to buy hidden characters, hidden stages, music, equipment and customs but nope, they pretty much exist just to try different ways to get trophies.

Also, I keep seeing people mention that customs are going away, did EVO show something I'm unaware of? I don't recall customs causing any noticeable upsets. Were the spectators simply not happy with it or did the TO of EVO consider the time it takes to set up customs a waste? Or is it just speculation at this point? I'd like for the customs meta to still exist and actually co-exist with the vanilla meta even though I personally only want to participate in the latter.

I think it's more the relative silence on the matter being assumed to imply they're not being allowed from most largeish tournaments. I haven't seen anything actually official either, but then again, I haven't been looking.

 

[b2jammer]

As a completionist, I didn't have any qualms grinding them out on both my 3DS and my U, but I understand most people aren't like that, especially not most top-level competitives.

But I meant the inability to just select them piecemeal at character selection via some sort of mini menu like choosing a name, instead of having to go out to a menu, make the sets, then go back in and select them.

Well, that too. That doesn't help.

 

[DEEK4Y]

I think it's more the relative silence on the matter being assumed to imply they're not being allowed from most largeish tournaments. I haven't seen anything actually official either, but then again, I haven't been looking.

DFW, east coast and Midwest (mostly) confirmed dropping customs. I'm not sure about the west coast but I've heard rumors of a switch to vanilla as well. Community appears to be moving towards a unified meta.

 

[mercy]

DFW, east coast and Midwest (mostly) confirmed dropping customs. I'm not sure about the west coast but I've heard rumors of a switch to vanilla as well. Community appears to be moving towards a unified meta.

Vanilla only is hardly unifying the meta.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

I'm posting this in multiple forums because I really want people to consider it and make sure I'm arguing my points coherently. This was originally posted in "What are your opinions on customs post-evo?"



So now we've got Omni's video to consider. I want to try to write a reasonable response answering all of his concerns, but I think the most important thing to keep in mind is what he said at the end - he is not "the enemy". We all want Smash 4 to succeed so we need to keep it civil and stay respectful as a community to attract outsiders.

I'm still looking for how to word my response for his first two arguments about the opinions of pro players (which he admits is not perfect) and "one meta is better than two" (I start talking about it later). The last one though is the appeal to logistics, which is partially dependent on the area and who has the customs unlocked via 3ds. That being said, with many communities this isn't an issue because at least one person has them all unlocked in some way and can transfer the AA sets. Even if all 10 slots are NOT filled in future editions, the 6-8 sets are all that is really needed for understanding about, according to AA, 90% of matchups. In addition, when a person with a different setup transfers their character in, it stays so it can be practiced against. This is especially true if said person is a regular at that particular venue and not just a "one-shot". As long as we have a standard group of movesets to make all this easier and one person to transfer them all to everyone who wants them, there really isn't much of an excuse here.




I want to start talking about the "one meta > two" argument, because in a way it makes sense and in a way it's arguable. I definitely don't want to split the community in half, and neither does Omni, but it does make me wonder if forcing one of two "denominations" on people is even necessary. As noted above, EVO showed that a Customs On major is possible, so as I mentioned earlier, what's wrong with having some events be custom on and some be custom off?

I have to bring up the reality show argument again because it seems the most one to one - every season has different twists and different players that each contestant has to navigate around. Fans could argue the "what ifs" like "what if the teams weren't split up and so and so wasn't separated from his alliance and immediately voted out for being an outsider?", but at the end of the day, it can't change what actually happened.

But I know Smash Bros. isn't a reality show. We're attempting to show that it can be a legitimate eSport, so sports references probably make more sense. The first one to come to me is the Denver Broncos. Because of the altitude, teams have to be prepared specifically how to handle conditions when playing against that particular team on their home field. I did look it up to make sure I wasn't spouting utter nonsense and ESPN says the same thing: http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insi...why-denver-broncos-home-field-advantage-great

Every tournament has variables because no two tournaments are the same. Whether customs are on or off may be a more noticeable variable than others, but it looks to be simply a variable nonetheless. And it's a variable that reaches a compromise between both communities, but both sets of players equally need to be prepared to work through if they want to compete in said tournament.




Lastly, I have been reading David Sirlin's Playing to Win, as recommended by @T0MMY. I've found it has much to say about bans in other kinds of tournaments, particularly Street Fighter, that could easily be applicable in this situation. Here's the link for anyone interested: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned

The basic gist of it though is that before bans are made, elements of the game must be seen as "innocent until proven guilty". That's ultimately what we're trying to decide on here, and when answering that question I still have to give a hearty "I don't know". But customs did seem to be given a guilty verdict almost immediately for multiple reasons (mainly inconvenience which is in the process of fixing itself) and I'm not really convinced they were warranted.

I alone can't 100% confirm that this is "the competitive player's bible" because any moron can post anything on the internet and say it's true. I'm gonna need other people in the field to back me up on this one.

But if this is a trusted source, what does the fighting game community see when they see us arguing back and forth over rulesets rather than simply "playing the game"? I know a lot of fgc people already look down on all the smash bros. games, and their opinion is not the most important, otherwise we wouldn't still be playing smash. But EVO set both melee and smash for wii U alongside other fighting games as one of their own, so we really do need to take the fact that we just might be part of the fgc into consideration.

 

[Raijinken]

Vanilla only is hardly unifying the meta.

One Meta Under Sheik, no matter how you look at it.

But if this is a trusted source, what does the fighting game community see when they see us arguing back and forth over rulesets rather than simply "playing the game"? I know a lot of fgc people already look down on all the smash bros. games, and their opinion is not the most important, otherwise we wouldn't still be playing smash. But EVO set both melee and smash for wii U alongside other fighting games as one of their own, so we really do need to take the fact that we just might be part of the fgc into consideration.

I like all of your post, but mostly want to comment on this one.

Virtually every "standard" fighting game (Street Fighter, Vs Capcom, Tekken, Mortal Kombat, you name it) has, in essence, had its competitive ruleset defined in-game, by the developer, since early in its life, if not from the very start. To my knowledge, very few (if any) "meta-game" changes are made to rulesets aside from playing out sets of sets in some cases (i.e. you play best of five bo3s in SF, I think). Past that, they don't have "ruleset debates" to nearly the extent we do, because everything in the game is essentially assumed to be there to compete with or against. Hidden characters are assumed to be mandatory no matter how hard or time consuming they may be to unlock. Stage doesn't matter in most games, in ones it does it's (to my knowledge) assumed they're all fair (if perhaps counterpick-y in nature) and I assume in such cases there are policies for picking them (I was listening to Tekken commentators talk about the number of floors certain stages had. I've played a grand total of an hour of Tekken in my life, but if that influences much, I'm sure they came up with a way to include it). And, as was pointed out in the "Fix our attitude against Awesum" thread, their communities have, on the whole, an actual respect for pure "play to win" strategy, and generally seem to give the winner respect for winning, even if he won by spamming fireballs.

Smash isn't like that at all. It started as a party fighter where the closest thing to a modern-day "fair" stage had a random element (which has magically been deemed fair enough to be grandfathered into basically any stagelist). Our game defaults to time without stock. 15 years after its creation, we were given a competitive ruleset: No items, 5 minutes, 2 stock, randomly selected Omega Stages only, all characters legal, no Miis, no customs, Sudden Death if you don't have a stock lead (which makes sense, because percent is not an ensured lead in Smash), and in teams, no Friendly Fire. We were given a ruleset and we essentially SPAT on it. We're so entrenched in our grassroots elitism that when Sakurai has literally given us a meta that can be practiced online or off, without effort beyond 120 versus matches (and some optional unlocks via event mode if you want Stadium-flavor or Smashville-flavor etc FD), we decry it as a mockery of "true competitive Smash." This happens directly alongside increasing the game's character count and variety through roster additions, customs, and equipment.

I'm going to make some entirely unbacked claims here. I would appreciate being proven wrong, but at this point in my argument, these claims serve to show the divisiveness of the Smash community, not the unity of whatever other communities I may list henceforth. Tekken doesn't argue over whether X stage is fair. Street Fighter doesn't care if you find an infinite and stall to time with it. They care about winning the game as the dev gave it to them.

We don't. We each want to win a game with our own idea of the "best rules." And as long as we have people dead set on 3 vs 2 stock, 6 vs 5 vs 8 vs 9 minutes, customs vs none vs limited, stage liberal vs stage conservative, FLSS vs Starter/CP, we'll never settle for what the best rules are.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

@ Raijinken It's interesting to note that in many ways For Glory 1v1 plays similar to a traditional fighting game. I always thought 2 stocks was kinda weird until I realized stocks in this game were similar to rounds in a fighting game where it's also best of 3, take 2 rounds to win. Also the omega stages, which we consider as final destination, are actually more along the lines of the "basic plane with a fancy background" that any other fighting game has and the differences are purely cosmetic.

I don't entirely fault the smash community for wanting a different, more dynamic stage setup for tournaments over for glory, or even debating the different options such as customs, what to do with Miis, etc. It's just that, to quote Pops from Regular Show, as of late "we've been tearing each other apart like animals, and not the gentle kind."

 

[PUK]

I don't get the whole two meta argument. I can't name anyone who will deliberately ignore vanilla tournament because he likes playing custom on, and a lot of people will go play default on custom tournament even if they are anti custom. Our community, at least in the majority of places, is too small to be picky and the whole two meta argument is like assuming that there is a limited quantity ressource and that two tournaments a week fe is a bad idea :-(

 

[Raijinken]

@ Raijinken It's interesting to note that in many ways For Glory 1v1 plays similar to a traditional fighting game. I always thought 2 stocks was kinda weird until I realized stocks in this game were similar to rounds in a fighting game where it's also best of 3, take 2 rounds to win. Also the omega stages, which we consider as final destination, are actually more along the lines of the "basic plane with a fancy background" that any other fighting game has and the differences are purely cosmetic.

I don't entirely fault the smash community for wanting a different, more dynamic stage setup for tournaments over for glory, or even debating the different options such as customs, what to do with Miis, etc. It's just that, to quote Pops from Regular Show, as of late "we've been tearing each other apart like animals, and not the gentle kind."

Omegas actually aren't identical (grass, wall-kick-able surfaces, ledge types), but the differences are small enough that if we want that level of control over our meta, we can still just pick a small subset of them or literally make it FD Only.

I, too, don't blame people for wanting a more "interesting" game, in my own opinion. But it's pretty nonsensical, especially when compared to other fighting games, to be arguing over a ruleset when the dev literally gave us one.

 

[Ulevo]

Omegas actually aren't identical (grass, blastzones, ledge types), but the differences are small enough that if we want that level of control over our meta, we can still just pick a small subset of them or literally make it FD Only.

I, too, don't blame people for wanting a more "interesting" game, in my own opinion. But it's pretty nonsensical, especially when compared to other fighting games, to be arguing over a ruleset when the dev literally gave us one.

For the last time, there are no blast zone variances betwee Omega stages.