Important Official Custom Moveset Project

[Deleted member]

Fair enough. I'm anti-customs completely, but mostly for logistical reasons (par the course for me: 1.5 hours to setup, run, and clean up an entire tournament with only 1 Wii U available, and I don't own a cheat device for Powersaves).

thats another reason why there should be less sets. not as much set up

 

[Christian Anderson]

Here's a thought, why not have a poll on each characters boards to vote on which customs are the best ones. it'll work like this:

Members can vote on which special is best for each type(neutral, side, up, down), between specials 1,2 and 3. the polls will tally the general consensus on which specials are preferred between most characters. and once the polls are done, the final moveset will be decided.

 

[ARGHETH]

I think most character boards either have already decided it, or are so split on it that the end result will benefit only part of their community. And plus, isn't half the point of customs to give characters more options?

 

[Christian Anderson]

I think most character boards either have already decided it, or are so split on it that the end result will benefit only part of their community. And plus, isn't half the point of customs to give characters more options?

point taken, that's why there would have to be a substantial difference in votes. (say 500 at least)

 

[ARGHETH]

point taken, that's why there would have to be a substantial difference in votes. (say 500 at least)

...we are talking about doing this on each character board, right? Most boards don't even have a quarter of that many people. 90% of boards will maybe have a difference of 10 at most.

 

[WarioManX]

Here's a thought, why not have a poll on each characters boards to vote on which customs are the best ones. it'll work like this:

Members can vote on which special is best for each type(neutral, side, up, down), between specials 1,2 and 3. the polls will tally the general consensus on which specials are preferred between most characters. and once the polls are done, the final moveset will be decided.

As all the custom sets in the OP were determined by asking each individual character board which custom sets were the best or most preferred, and are arranged specifically with the most popular set as custom set #1, this is virtually already done.


Picking on some specific moves just because you think it's broken (usually because you don't know how to deal with it) is unfair. Why would you deny Donkey Kong the ability to spin higher and faster? Or Mario the ability to have scalding water? Or Bowser the ability to have a sliding slash? It's a part of that character's toolbox and as long as it doesn't create a legitimate lock-to-KO situation like the Lightning Falcon Kick you should be learning to play against it instead of banning it. Smash is all about watching your opponent and learning to adapt to their unique play style, that's just what we do! Custom moves add depth and uniqueness to those unique play styles.

 

[Pazx]

As all the custom sets in the OP were determined by asking each individual character board which custom sets were the best or most preferred, and are arranged specifically with the most popular set as custom set #1, this is virtually already done.


Picking on some specific moves just because you think it's broken (usually because you don't know how to deal with it) is unfair. Why would you deny Donkey Kong the ability to spin higher and faster? Or Mario the ability to have scalding water? Or Bowser the ability to have a sliding slash? It's a part of that character's toolbox and as long as it doesn't create a legitimate lock-to-KO situation like the Lightning Falcon Kick you should be learning to play against it instead of banning it. Smash is all about watching your opponent and learning to adapt to their unique play style, that's just what we do! Custom moves add depth and uniqueness to those unique play styles.

What you have done here is arbitrarily drawn the line for where customs should be legal/banned for at "sets up jab lock into KO". Not only is this completely arbitrary, it would mean you'd have to ban the following:

• Footstools

 

[Christian Anderson]

As all the custom sets in the OP were determined by asking each individual character board which custom sets were the best or most preferred, and are arranged specifically with the most popular set as custom set #1, this is virtually already done.


Picking on some specific moves just because you think it's broken (usually because you don't know how to deal with it) is unfair. Why would you deny Donkey Kong the ability to spin higher and faster? Or Mario the ability to have scalding water? Or Bowser the ability to have a sliding slash? It's a part of that character's toolbox and as long as it doesn't create a legitimate lock-to-KO situation like the Lightning Falcon Kick you should be learning to play against it instead of banning it. Smash is all about watching your opponent and learning to adapt to their unique play style, that's just what we do! Custom moves add depth and uniqueness to those unique play styles.

I never said i wanted to ban certain customs, i wanted to find out which customs where preferred the most in the community. I would still leave the option to create personal custom sets but only limit set making to pools for the sake of time

 

[DunnoBro]

thats another reason why there should be less sets. not as much set up

All that would help with is save an hour or two ONCE when initially inputting the sets into the 3ds. Putting 1 set for mario and 10 sets for mario takes the same amount of time.

Also, I'm 100% customs, but the sm4sh community is very scrubby. If we can create a semi-respectable and justifiable criteria for bans, can implement them via approved presets, we should.

Of course, it'd be best if post-evo nintendo nerfs certain customs. But if not, for the regions that won't stop using customs (NJ/NY, maybe MD/VA) we should take power into our own hands to make their meta as healthy as possible.

It's odd though, it's starting to feel like nintendo nerfs customs by way of mechanics tweaking.

Bowser's dash slam custom used to be able to drop opponent's off, then use his custom upsecial to recover. (Well, default slam did this too... It was just way easier with the custom)

Then burning spindash with the removal of the invincibility frames, villager stall with helium mechanics...

In general though, I guess the problematic customs are problems due to mechanics rather than moves themselves. (Kong cyclone's ledge cancels, HSB's smash charge, doubles reflector/absorb mechanics)

I don't know what their obsession with burning spindash is though, IIRC it's been edited three times.

 

[Deleted member]

All that would help with is save an hour or two ONCE when initially inputting the sets into the 3ds. Putting 1 set for mario and 10 sets for mario takes the same amount of time.

Also, I'm 100% customs, but the sm4sh community is very scrubby. If we can create a semi-respectable and justifiable criteria for bans, can implement them via approved presets, we should.

Of course, it'd be best if post-evo nintendo nerfs certain customs. But if not, for the regions that won't stop using customs (NJ/NY, maybe MD/VA) we should take power into our own hands to make their meta as healthy as possible.

It's odd though, it's starting to feel like nintendo nerfs customs by way of mechanics tweaking.

Bowser's dash slam custom used to be able to drop opponent's off, then use his custom upsecial to recover. (Well, default slam did this too... It was just way easier with the custom)

Then burning spindash with the removal of the invincibility frames, villager stall with helium mechanics...

In general though, I guess the problematic customs are problems due to mechanics rather than moves themselves. (Kong cyclone's ledge cancels, HSB's smash charge, doubles reflector/absorb mechanics)

I don't know what their obsession with burning spindash is though, IIRC it's been edited three times.

I'm definitely not against customs, but I do feel like there needs to be some control with which ones are legal or not or a way to balance out the use of them, since they can be problematic, if it's a move itself or an in game mechanic.

 

[MajorMajora]

I still need to say that we should only nerf a custom if a nerf to the character is needed. Because that'll be the end result: you fight a character, not a single move. I know that there can be cases where that would be necessary based on character strength, but I get the impression we are looking at it from the move level and not the character level. Tread carefully, guys.

 

[Deleted member]

I still need to say that we should only nerf a custom if a nerf to the character is needed. Because that'll be the end result: you fight a character, not a single move. I know that there can be cases where that would be necessary based on character strength, but I get the impression we are looking at it from the move level and not the character level. Tread carefully, guys.

In one of my earlier posts I was saying that custom moves should be used to balance the roster, and to do that we have to take the games initial balance into question first. I completely agree with you, looking at custom moves individually could be something that hurts the way they end up being implemented.

 

[Thinkaman]

Honestly, I agreed with the whole "not as broken as defaults" point of view, but there is one key (and tragic) difference between default and custom abilities.

Default stuff is actually getting patched.

Sure we can say "DK is terrible, he needs this" right now, but he did just get a handful of buffs as did many other characters. If Palutena or Mii Brawler get a diverse set of improvements to their regular movesets are you still going to be okay with them killing you at 50% when they dash grab you in the middle of the stage?

Sakurai's team has shown so far that they care about fixing glaring issues in default (like Diddy Uair) and that they do not care about abusive strategies with customs (Infinite Lightweight never fixed, Cyclone and other spammy powerful customs unaltered).

Customs are an amazing idea for competition that were not optimized, executed or maintained with competition in mind at any level of play.

Top offenders in default play have been tweaked and likely will be altered more in the future.

Default is unbalanced and is becoming more balanced every patch.

Customs are unbalanced and are becoming more unbalanced every patch as weak characters reliant on an overpowered custom are becoming not so weak.

This is a bridge we'll cross when we get to it.

Like, yes--if there comes a day where WFT is buffed to the top of the charts, and Jumbo Hoops is just insult to injury--we'll re-evaluate things if that happens.

But for now, Palutena, WFT, DK, DHD, and anyone else you could name is probably not even in the top 15, much less higher.


Meanwhile, Sheik has Needles, Vanish, and Bouncing Fish.

 

[Teshie U]

Honestly, needles, vanish and bouncing fish aren't THAT dumb. As a megaman/pacman/villager players I do wonder why my 8 projectiles lose to that 1 projectile, but the truly annoying thing about sheik and diddy is that they zone you out so well and when you do it back to them they don't have to respect anything.

You'd never get away with just spamming those specials, but its annoying that they are an obstacle blocking you from even getting close to this frame data demon with moves safe on sheik at point blank range.


But anyway, back on topic. That bridge is being crossed. Diddy Uair is no longer the bar set for most unfair circumstances in the game. Sheik is annoying but with bouncing fish and bair weakened she REALLY has to stick to her plan and not screw up to avoid rage comebacks. No more ledge trump Bair killing at 80%.

I don't think WFT is particularly bad. She is just a naturally campy character with low range. Palutena, DK and DHD have all gotten buffs (not major ones, but it shows a trend). Weak characters are getting improvements and people are showing these characters are viable outside of customs. Maybe not always solo viable, but if people like MVD and Trela can whip out DHD and Charizard against the best characters in the game and succeed, I don't think these characters "need" dragon rush, rock hurl, zig zag can etc. to be useful.

Not every character needs to be as annoying and as viable as sheik for all characters to shine. I could definitely admire a metagame with 10 solo viable characters and 40 characters that do well against only a handful of the best characters.

 

[ARGHETH]

Not every character needs to be as annoying and as viable as sheik for all characters to shine.

...I don't think anybody wants that.

I could definitely admire a metagame with 10 solo viable characters and 40 characters that do well against only a handful of the best characters.

Well, yeah, but customs help more characters have better matchups against the top/high tiers.

 

[Teshie U]

I was of the opinion that "its not winning tournaments so it cant be ruining the metagame right?" but I have looked at it from another angle.

Customs aren't overall adding deeper fairer interactions against top tiers. Customs are just creating more top tier barriers that everyone has to be measured against.

Take these situations:
-Can your character handle a Diddy sitting in shield with a banana?
-Can your character reliably take out Luma and catch Rosalina in 12 seconds?
-Can your character avoid getting grabbed by Luigi?
then add this stuff:
-Do you have a command grab or strong projectile game to keep DK from disrespecting your entire character with 1 move?
-Do you have consistent enough ledge punishes to make all the right trades with Villager?
-Do you have the mobility to chase down Lightweight Palutena without getting grabbed at 50?

This is just adding more situations that separate top tiers from low tiers. If you look at Diddy, Sheik, Rosalina, Fox they all handle these situations fine because they are great characters. At the highest levels of play, these extra layers of cheese don't bring the top tiers down and make them play fair with the rest of the cast. All it does is add extra hurdles for the struggling "honest" mid tiers that didn't get something extremely stupid from customs. Just more "gatekeeper" high tiers that consistently cheese their way to 9th-13th place while snuffing out the random mid tier that can handle Diddy but sadly didn't have an air grab to stop DK Dongnado spam (Mii Swordsman).

Its like the early builds of Brawl- where they didn't give cool stupid nonsense to half the cast yet.

I'm not saying customs didn't add some deeper things and make some characters feel complete. I think Marth's crescent slash giving him a stronger grab game made a world of difference. Interestingly enough when designing Roy, he DID get a strong grab game with deadly follow ups and damage wracking and it makes him feel so much more threatening overall. Even a couple of characters that got stuff that is just super cool but probably doesn't increase viability (Samus, Pacman, Little Mac, Greninja).

Just saying I see more hope for a lightly patched default meta than for the "anything goes" custom meta which will never see major problems fixed.

If next patch we see dongnado with toned down super armor (maybe change it to Yoshi-style heavy armor) and autocancel (switch it with the default), Infinite lightweight finally removed and all of Sonic's custom spindashes reduce mobility in some way like BSD (risk free mobility increases are far too toxic in smash), tone down all these low risk one-hit-kills (if i spotdodge against a speedster like pikachu I shouldn't die at 50% from 1 hit). If I see these things coming into play, actual competitive fixes for absurd customs, I'd see some hope for custom standard play, but so far its not looking like anyone cares.


As for DLC characters no having customs, I honestly feel like all of these characters were designed better and more thoughtfully than most of the regular cast. Mewtwo may be underwhelming on risk/reward, but none of them are left with a useless special they would be begging to switch out. As I said, Roy is basically all the stuff custom Marth wanted to be.

 

[ARGHETH]

Take these situations:
-Can your character handle a Diddy sitting in shield with a banana?
-Can your character reliably take out Luma and catch Rosalina in 12 seconds?
-Can your character avoid getting grabbed by Luigi?
then add this stuff:
-Do you have a command grab or strong projectile game to keep DK from disrespecting your entire character with 1 move?
-Do you have consistent enough ledge punishes to make all the right trades with Villager?
-Do you have the mobility to chase down Lightweight Palutena without getting grabbed at 50?

Not to go against your point, but my main isn't bad against these with customs. And he handles them significantly better with customs than without them (except for maybe Palutena. Customs won't change awful ground speed...) due to Fire Wall and Speed Thunder giving him better options.

As for DLC characters no having customs, I honestly feel like all of these characters were designed better and more thoughtfully than most of the regular cast... As I said, Roy is basically all the stuff custom Marth wanted to be.

I think the Marth boards are perfectly fine with their character, especially with the Jab buff. And on top of that, they play differently and really shouldn't be compared unless it's against each other. Ryu was designed how he was due to Sakurai really wanting him to keep the SF feeling. Mewtwo and Lucas...honestly don't seem any better or worse designed than the rest of the characters to me.

Mewtwo may be underwhelming on risk/reward, but none of them are left with a useless special they would be begging to switch out.

But how many non-DLC characters would?

 

[A_Kae]

I think the Marth boards are perfectly fine with their character, especially with the Jab buff.

Yeah, we're all good with Marth now. He could use some more small buffs in my opinion, but if Marth stays unchanged for the rest of Smash 4's life, I won't mind much.

 

[Teshie U]

I was just pointing out that "DLC characters dont have them" is a dumb reason to get rid of customs as they all wound up with pretty versatile specials (Mewtwo really improved there from Melee I'd say) and aren't dealing with stuff like rollout or egg roll being 99% pointless.

 

[Unknownkid]

This is just adding more situations that separate top tiers from low tiers. If you look at Diddy, Sheik, Rosalina, Fox they all handle these situations fine because they are great characters. At the highest levels of play, these extra layers of cheese don't bring the top tiers down and make them play fair with the rest of the cast. All it does is add extra hurdles for the struggling "honest" mid tiers that didn't get something extremely stupid from customs. Just more "gatekeeper" high tiers that consistently cheese their way to 9th-13th place while snuffing out the random mid tier that can handle Diddy but sadly didn't have an air grab to stop DK Dongnado spam (Mii Swordsman).

Haha, actually, Default Swordfighter have several tools to combat Kong Cyclone. Multiple Hits Dair and Fair, well-timed Upair, and Counter (if you want something consistent). Now, Gale Strike. This move rekt the Kong Cyclone. The first half is a Slow Multiple Hits Tornado that send your opponent upwards into your Kill move. The second half is a wind box which ignore Super Armor and screw up DK's auto cancel landing by making him SD or keeping him upfloat to suffer the KC's Endlag. Swordfighter should be fine... in theory of course.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

About patches, have you guys read Thinkaman's analysis of the game files for the last two patches? Within them, I don't see any evidence that custom specials are being changed particularly less than default specials; there are all kinds of random little tweaks to them. I actually think the patches further emphasize the great balance situation that is customs on; a lot of characters who have gotten buffs weren't buffed enough to matter with customs off but, when you further consider customs, you have really consequential characters. Marth, Kirby, and Ike certainly come to mind very quickly here. On the flip side, both Sonic and Diddy are probably overnerfed without customs, but when you look at what Hammer Spin Dash and Rocketbarrel Attack do for them, they still make a lot of sense as characters to me.

---

The gatekeeper argument is interesting, but I don't think experience really shows that this is how it plays out. Anyone can beat custom DK; he's more of a gatekeeper for players (some just don't know what to do and just melt). I actually watched a money match locally tonight between a local Ness and a custom DK. The custom DK was definitely built to gatekeep and relied on his custom specials nearly exclusively, and hit was obvious this Ness player had never fought against it before and further wasn't even making good decisions (he kept running into Hot Slap, not appropriately recognizing that Hot Slap is a strong anti-air). The Ness player still won 3-0 since he was, overall, a stronger player with better fundamentals who won more basic exchanges because of that; if Ness has specific anti-Kong Cyclone tech, it wasn't being shown here (and hence was irrelevant). This particular MM wasn't the highlight of the metagame, but when I think back to every time I've seen Kong Cyclone play out across the country, I realize I've seen just such an array of different characters be the answer that I don't think character is the answer so much as player. In general, this gatekeeper argument seems to imply that match-ups are more polarized with customs on, and I just don't think the evidence supports that conclusion.

I'd also like to point out something I consider obvious but that may not be to those who haven't been in the smash community as long. If your character is "just getting by", your character is probably bad in the long run. Just think about it. If you're a rational player who wants to maximize his or her winning chances, first you're going to look at the things that have a dominating effect on the game. Question two comes when you look at everything else and ask "why would I ever want to use that not dominating thing when this dominating thing is already in the game waiting for me to pick it?". You want your character to do more than merely not encumber you too much; you want your character choice to actively provide features that help you win. On some level you do have to get past gatekeepers, but if you aren't throwing up gates of your own for your opponents to pass through at the same time, you're really not doing yourself a service. This is why, fundamentally, I see powerful gameplay elements among many characters as a friend of balance. There being many powerful gameplay elements means there are a lot of good reasons to pick many characters; when there are fewer powerful elements, the game centralizes more on whatever powerful elements remain. Basic balance principles still apply (broken game elements are always bad), but in general, everyone will converge on the strong characters so it's best for as many characters as possible to be strong. Weaker characters will inevitably be left behind, and while I like to be optimistic about as many characters as possible, we're going to see a big culling of the characters people actually use in the next year or two no matter what ruleset we use. Our real question is how many characters will survive this, and I'm quite convinced the number is much higher with customs legal.

 

[A_Kae]

About patches, have you guys read Thinkaman's analysis of the game files for the last two patches? Within them, I don't see any evidence that custom specials are being changed particularly less than default specials; there are all kinds of random little tweaks to them.

For what it's worth, I totally agree with this statement. It seems like customs are considered during the balancing process, whatever that is.

So maybe we can stop saying that customs should be banned because of patch reasons?

 

[Teshie U]

I'm aware some customs were altered, but overall its very clear that they aren't being "balanced" the way default things are.

When you look at default play, its clear they took a look at the absolutely stupidest things (aside from rolling) and dialed back the jank factor. Thats clearly not true for customs.

And yea, you can get by completely unfair "gatekeeper" stuff by being alot better than your opponent. !.04 Diddy was definitely dropping sets. Part of the reason is that people often get too caught up in spamming something broken and forget to maximize their entire kit WHILE being unfair. I've seen plenty of custom DKs spam up B when they had already opened up a stronger punish but w/e this is what happens when you are allowed to be brain dead for a win. You stop thinking.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm aware some customs were altered, but overall its very clear that they aren't being "balanced" the way default things are.

When you look at default play, its clear they took a look at the absolutely stupidest things (aside from rolling) and dialed back the jank factor. Thats clearly not true for customs.

And yea, you can get by completely unfair "gatekeeper" stuff by being alot better than your opponent. !.04 Diddy was definitely dropping sets. Part of the reason is that people often get too caught up in spamming something broken and forget to maximize their entire kit WHILE being unfair. I've seen plenty of custom DKs spam up B when they had already opened up a stronger punish but w/e this is what happens when you are allowed to be brain dead for a win. You stop thinking.

It occurs to me that normals (anything done by pressing the A button) probably shouldn't be included in this "customs vs. non-customs" tally of balance changes. I'd be much more interested in a comparison of changes made to default specials vs. changes made to custom specials.

 

[A_Kae]

It occurs to me that normals (anything done by pressing the A button) probably shouldn't be included in this "customs vs. non-customs" tally of balance changes. I'd be much more interested in a comparison of changes made to default specials vs. changes made to custom specials.

So for a total listing of changes specials (I'm not showing the actual changes, just what's been changed, find out yourself):

All of these just came from looking at the data dumps. If you want to see what's actually different, I suggest you look there.

1.0.6

Spoiler

Game and Watch
Chef
XXL Chef
Short Order Chef

Diddy Kong
Monkey Flip
Flying Monkey Flip

Zelda
Din's Fire
Din's Blaze
Din's Flare

Marth
Dancing Blade

Kirby
Hammer Flip
Hammer Bash
Giant Hammer

Little Mac
Jolt Haymaker
Grounding Blow

Lucina
Dancing Blade
Shield Breaker

Sonic
Homing Attack
Homing Stomp
Suprise Attack
Spin Dash
Burning Spin Dash

Mii Brawler
Piston Punch

Mii Swordsman
Hero's Spin

1.0.8

Spoiler

Link
Spin Attack
Shocking Spin Attack

Marth/Lucina
Dolphin Slash
Crescent Slash

Mii Brawler
Onslaught Startup

Mii Swordsman
Slash Launcher

Some of these aren't really balance changes, (crescent slash) but customs are getting changed.

Edit: decided I might as well list what the changes actually were:

1.0.6

Spoiler

Chef
Pan hitbox
size 5.76 -> 6.76
y 6.4 -> 7.4
XXL Chef
Pan hitbox
y 6.4 -> 7.4
Short-Order Chef
Pan hitbox
y 6.4 -> 7.4

Monkey Flip
kick hitbox
decays from damage 14/12 -> 12/10 on frame 11
throw hitbox
damage 5 -> 3
additional hitbox added to throw
Flying Monkey Flip
throw hitbox
damage 5 -> 3
additional hitbox added to throw

Din's Fire/Flare/Blaze
sweetspot hitbox
size 2.7 -> 2.1
Phantom Slash (uncharged swipe)
animation speed 0.5x for frames 60-70 (10 frames slower)
Phantom Slash (partially charged overhead)
animation speed 0.5x for frames 90-100 (10 frames slower)
Phantom Slash (partially charged uppercut)
animation speed 0.5x for frames 135-145 (10 frames slower)

Dancing Blade Ground Third Hit (Forward)
all hitboxes
angle 60/70/35 -> 50/55/40
bkb 30 -> 40

Ground Hammer Flip/Bash
hitbox 0
size 4.4 -> 5.4
y 4.0 -> 4.5
hitbox 1
size 2.5 -> 3.5
y 4.0 -> 4.5
Ground Hammer Flip Max Charge
hitbox 0
size 4.8 -> 5.8
y 4.0 -> 4.2
hitbox 1
size 2.9 -> 3.9
y 4.0 -> 4.2
Ground Giant Hammer
all hitboxes
y 4.0 -> 4.5
Aerial Hammer Flip/Bash
all hitboxes
size 4.2/2.0 -> 5.2/3.0
y 4.0 -> 4.3
Aerial Hammer Flip Max Charge
hitbox 0
size 4.4 -> 5.4
hitbox 1
size 2.5 -> 3.5
Aerial Giant Hammer
all hitboxes
y 4.0 -> 4.3

Jolt Haymaker
all hitboxes
kbg 95 -> 98
bkb 25 -> 33
Grounding Blow
all delayed hitboxes (non-spike)
kbg 95 -> 98
bkb 25 -> 33

Ground Shield Breaker Uncharged
all hitboxes
damage 8.075 -> 8.5
Ground Shield Breaker Charged
all hitboxes
damage 21.85 -> 23
Dancing Blade Ground Third Hit (Forward)
all hitboxes
angle 60/70/35 -> 50/55/40
bkb 30 -> 40

Homing Attack/Stomp/Surprise Attack
second hitbox added (identical values to existing)
Spin Dash ??? + both customs
hitbox
damage 6 -> 3
kbg 73 -> 112
bkb 70 -> 66
Spin Dash + Hammer Spin Dash ???
hitbox
kbg 46 -> 62
bkb 70 -> 67
Burning Spin Dash ???
hitbox
damage 7 -> 9
kbg 46 -> 62
bkb 70 -> 67
Burning Spin Dash ???
hitbox
damage 10 -> 12
Burning Spin Dash ???
hitbox
damage 4 -> 6

Piston Punch
initial hitbox
wkb 200 -> 150
final hitbox
kbg 190 -> 180

Ground Hero's Spin
initial hitbox 0
damage 12 -> 14
initial hitbox 1
damage 13 -> 11
all hitbox 2s
y 8.6 -> 9.1
new stage of hitboxes on frame 6 that do 12/11/7 damage
third stage of hitboxes now on frame 11, not 9

1.0.8

Spoiler

Spin Attack
all stage 1 (of 4) hitboxes
kbg 84 -> 85
all stage 2 (of 4) hitboxes
kbg 80 -> 85
all stage 3 (of 4) hitboxes
kbg 80 -> 82
Shocking Spin Attack
all stage 2 (of 3) hitboxes
kbg 80 -> 82

Dolphin Slash
initial hitboxes
kbg 68 -> 74
hitlag 0.5 -> 0.7
Crescent Slash
initial hitboxes
hitlag 0.5 -> 0.7

Dolphin Slash
initial hitboxes
kbg 68 -> 74
hitlag 0.5 -> 0.7
Crescent Slash
initial hitboxes
hitlag 0.5 -> 0.7

Onslaught Startup (ground and aerial)
all windboxes
unknown params changed
windbox 1
angle 50 -> 361
kbg 100 -> 0
wkb 80 -> 0
element Hit -> Push

Slash Launcher
windbox 0
x 5.0 -> 6.0

 

[b2jammer]

It occurs to me that normals (anything done by pressing the A button) probably shouldn't be included in this "customs vs. non-customs" tally of balance changes. I'd be much more interested in a comparison of changes made to default specials vs. changes made to custom specials.

Here's a list from SSB Wiki:

Spoiler

==1.0.4 Defaults==
Flying Slam
Fire Breath
Flamethrower
Peanut Popgun
Blaster
Flame Choke
Shadow Sneak
Water Shuriken
Hydro Pump
Gordo Throw
Rollout
Jolt Haymaker
Extreme Speed
Super Jump Punch (Luigi)
Leaf Shield
Rush Coil
Dimensional Cape
Judge
Pikmin Pluck
Pikmin Throw
Bonus Fruit
Fire Hydrant
Power Pellet
Thunder (Pikachu)
Skull Bash
Elwind
Thoron
Luma Shot
Bomb (Samus)
Bouncing Fish
Monado Arts
Spring Jump
Bomb (Toon Link)
Yoshi Bomb
Egg Lay
Paralyzer

==1.0.4 Customs==
Dragon Rush
Rock Hurl
Void Reflector
Extreme Speed Attack
High Jump

==1.0.6 Defaults==
Flying Slam
Flare Blitz
Giant Punch
Monkey Flip
Inhale
Hammer Flip
Spin Attack
Jolt Haymaker
Shield Breaker (Lucina)
Dancing Blade
Leaf Shield
Pac-Jump
Missile
Spin Dash
Spring Jump
Homing Attack
Phantom Slash

==1.0.6 Customs==
Aether Drive
Order Tackle
Super Speed
Burning Spin Dash

==1.0.8 Defaults==
Quick Draw
Spin Attack
Dolphin Slash
PSI Magnet (Ness)
Pikmin Order

==1.0.8 Customs==
Crescent Slash

 

[Piford]

Here's a list from SSB Wiki:

Spoiler

==1.0.4 Defaults==
Flying Slam
Fire Breath
Flamethrower
Peanut Popgun
Blaster
Flame Choke
Shadow Sneak
Water Shuriken
Hydro Pump
Gordo Throw
Rollout
Jolt Haymaker
Extreme Speed
Super Jump Punch (Luigi)
Leaf Shield
Rush Coil
Dimensional Cape
Judge
Pikmin Pluck
Pikmin Throw
Bonus Fruit
Fire Hydrant
Power Pellet
Thunder (Pikachu)
Skull Bash
Elwind
Thoron
Luma Shot
Bomb (Samus)
Bouncing Fish
Monado Arts
Spring Jump
Bomb (Toon Link)
Yoshi Bomb
Egg Lay
Paralyzer

==1.0.4 Customs==
Dragon Rush
Rock Hurl
Void Reflector
Extreme Speed Attack
High Jump

==1.0.6 Defaults==
Flying Slam
Flare Blitz
Giant Punch
Monkey Flip
Inhale
Hammer Flip
Spin Attack
Jolt Haymaker
Shield Breaker (Lucina)
Dancing Blade
Leaf Shield
Pac-Jump
Missile
Spin Dash
Spring Jump
Homing Attack
Phantom Slash

==1.0.6 Customs==
Aether Drive
Order Tackle
Super Speed
Burning Spin Dash

==1.0.8 Defaults==
Quick Draw
Spin Attack
Dolphin Slash
PSI Magnet (Ness)
Pikmin Order

==1.0.8 Customs==
Crescent Slash

I'm pretty sure this is misisng some customs likes Zelda's Custom phatom slashes having the same changes as defaults, along with Ike's Custom quick draws.

 

[b2jammer]

I'm pretty sure this is misisng some customs likes Zelda's Custom phatom slashes having the same changes as defaults, along with Ike's Custom quick draws.

Probably is. A_Kae's is a better list; I just posted at roughly the same time.

 

[CT Chia]

@ Amazing Ampharos So I was just looking at the Evo rules page, and they linked to this document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B8jSgl7JtfAGmDovuXoPiR9i3ZjpuO6K2ymvfKZRKws/edit?usp=sharing
That's not the original one shown with the images.

There was the issue with Mii Gunner 1312 earlier on, and currently in the OP of this thread it says "(1312)*

*Due to an oversight, 1312 Mii Gunner was inadvertently left out of the first release. If you already programmed your 3ds and did not include it, it's acceptable to let it be."

Back when this problem happened I thought that asterisk was going to be removed soon (like a week after this was released) to prevent confusion, but it's still there. Now the document linked to on Evo's site doesn't have any mentioning of Mii Gunner 1312 at all. I've been practicing this character for months to be prepared for Evo, and now it's not being included all of a sudden from the oversight? This set was supposed to be included from the very beginning in the discussion from the Mii Gunner forum.

Can you please correct this somehow and make sure it is included? I'm not sure who the owner of that document is that Evo is linking to, and the OP here makes it seem like 1312 shouldn't be included.

Edit: I found an archived version of the original Evo moveset spreadsheet here that does have the 1312 on it, but the latest document does not: http://shoryuken.com/2015/03/27/evo-2015-to-allow-custom-moves-in-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/

 

[Seiniyta]

@ Amazing Ampharos So I was just looking at the Evo rules page, and they linked to this document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B8jSgl7JtfAGmDovuXoPiR9i3ZjpuO6K2ymvfKZRKws/edit?usp=sharing
That's not the original one shown with the images.

There was the issue with Mii Gunner 1312 earlier on, and currently in the OP of this thread it says "(1312)*

*Due to an oversight, 1312 Mii Gunner was inadvertently left out of the first release. If you already programmed your 3ds and did not include it, it's acceptable to let it be."

Back when this problem happened I thought that asterisk was going to be removed soon (like a week after this was released) to prevent confusion, but it's still there. Now the document linked to on Evo's site doesn't have any mentioning of Mii Gunner 1312 at all. I've been practicing this character for months to be prepared for Evo, and now it's not being included all of a sudden from the oversight? This set was supposed to be included from the very beginning in the discussion from the Mii Gunner forum.

Can you please correct this somehow and make sure it is included? I'm not sure who the owner of that document is that Evo is linking to, and the OP here makes it seem like 1312 shouldn't be included.

Edit: I found an archived version of the original Evo moveset spreadsheet here that does have the 1312 on it, but the latest document does not: http://shoryuken.com/2015/03/27/evo-2015-to-allow-custom-moves-in-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/

It's probably for the best you contact Gaming Generations, the company that's setting everything up for Smash Bros WiiU at EVO to make sure the set makes it in! I wouldn't wait long.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

@ Amazing Ampharos So I was just looking at the Evo rules page, and they linked to this document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B8jSgl7JtfAGmDovuXoPiR9i3ZjpuO6K2ymvfKZRKws/edit?usp=sharing
That's not the original one shown with the images.

There was the issue with Mii Gunner 1312 earlier on, and currently in the OP of this thread it says "(1312)*

*Due to an oversight, 1312 Mii Gunner was inadvertently left out of the first release. If you already programmed your 3ds and did not include it, it's acceptable to let it be."

Back when this problem happened I thought that asterisk was going to be removed soon (like a week after this was released) to prevent confusion, but it's still there. Now the document linked to on Evo's site doesn't have any mentioning of Mii Gunner 1312 at all. I've been practicing this character for months to be prepared for Evo, and now it's not being included all of a sudden from the oversight? This set was supposed to be included from the very beginning in the discussion from the Mii Gunner forum.

Can you please correct this somehow and make sure it is included? I'm not sure who the owner of that document is that Evo is linking to, and the OP here makes it seem like 1312 shouldn't be included.

Edit: I found an archived version of the original Evo moveset spreadsheet here that does have the 1312 on it, but the latest document does not: http://shoryuken.com/2015/03/27/evo-2015-to-allow-custom-moves-in-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/

Hmm, the way this OP is phrased and the way EVO's original document was, that shouldn't have been left out, but as @ Seiniyta said, those are the people to contact. Perhaps the asterisk point was too subtle a point for people to understand; it exists (and remains) because of what I feel is a strong need to keep faith with people who quickly adopted the original sets (a core promise of this project to those who use it is not burdening TOs with over-frequent needs for changes). That comment was supposed to strongly state that, if you hadn't already programmed your 3ds, you should include that set when you do so, and I knew when that edit was made that EVO hadn't yet programmed their sets. I'm pretty sure that's the only way the words I wrote could be interpreted. This is a frustrating situation, a lesson to me that people don't actually read words all of the time even when doing important things and just assume symbols mean random things like "set is optional; leave out", and unfortunate for you. I actually don't have any direct power here, and I'm sorry for whatever role I played in this difficulty. I actually don't know based on the inconsistent signs we've gotten on this fine point whether it will physically be on the EVO set-ups or not.

I feel really bad that something important like this was posted and I took this long to see it; I've been a lot thinner with my SB presence in the past month or so and have been missing things. In addition to contacting GG directly, I might suggest hitting Mr. Wizard up on twitter and bringing this up. Saying "your first official document said this set would be included, I've been practicing it to get ready for EVO, and now your second one is missing it which makes me very nervous" might grease some gears better than anything I could do.

 

[Splash Damage]

Hate to say it, but I don't know if Wiz is gonna be changing much more for us anymore after "8AM."

 

[isaiah :)]

oh boy, villager and rosaluma time outs and DK UPB spam. just what this game needed to help people realize customs should have a ban list or just be banned all together :3

 

[Unknownkid]

If you cannot beat villager and rosaluma(wait seriously?) timeout and DK UP B spam, you deserve to lose. We might as well ban Default Sonic for contributing to both, Default Pikachu for Up B spam, and Sheik for Needles.

 

[Illuminose]

Comparing customs to defaults is not and never will be a logical argument. It's 'just as bad' is a pretty good argument against them tbh because we don't want more of those things. We have to play the default metagame (probably through Apex because Smash Con BH5 and most likely Apex are non-customs, next CEO I doubt will be either give Jebailey's attitude and positive player reception, we'll see at next EVO) and we're not banning default moves because the default metagame is a thing and we want defaults to transfer over. We cannot physically ban moves from the default metagame (not that I am implying we should) in any practical manner, not that I am saying we should.

Issue with customs Villager is that his playstyle is straight up degenerate, not that he's unbeatable. Degenerate is banworthy, hence why we ban degenerate stages.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Curious - what's the most common argument pro customs players have for a customs meta in regards to the DLC characters not getting them?

(Though technically, Ryu does have custom specials, they're just linked to different inputs and usable all at the same time )

 

[ARGHETH]

Curious - what's the most common argument pro customs players have for a customs meta in regards to the DLC characters not getting them?

(Though technically, Ryu does have custom specials, they're just linked to different inputs and usable all at the same time )

Not sure what the most common ones are, but I've heard arguments saying that Ryu already has them and Roy doesn't need them, since he'd most likely get Marth's customs, and the custom Marth players see as the best, Crescent Slash, is basically already possible with Blazer.

 

[Splash Damage]

Alright, I think it's time.

I think it may be a good idea for the lifespan of customs if we made a change. For season 2 of the custom lists, what would happen if we made just 3 bans of 3 different custom moves? The polarizing ones, the ones that turn people off to the idea of customs as a whole, like Windkong or Trip Sapling. How many more people would vote in favor of customs then? As a player who has frequented these custom boards since the start, can say that many people at the local I attend would be much more in favor of keeping customs on were there to be bans. So, it would probably be in our best interest to bite the bullet and see what three we could ban to stamp out the most controversial strategies present.
So, does anyone agree with this?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Curious - what's the most common argument pro customs players have for a customs meta in regards to the DLC characters not getting them?

(Though technically, Ryu does have custom specials, they're just linked to different inputs and usable all at the same time )

I think whether 4 characters have customs of their own should have exactly zero impact on whether or not the 51 other characters should be allowed to use theirs.

Thought experiment: Flip it around and suppose the only characters with any customs at all were Palutena and the Miis. (Chosen because that's sort of their shtick.) Would you be opposed to their use of customs on the grounds that no one else had similar options, or would you accept it as their character gimmick?

 

[webbedspace]

Alright, I think it's time.

I think it may be a good idea for the lifespan of customs if we made a change. For season 2 of the custom lists, what would happen if we made just 3 bans of 3 different custom moves? The polarizing ones, the ones that turn people off to the idea of customs as a whole, like Windkong or Trip Sapling. How many more people would vote in favor of customs then? As a player who has frequented these custom boards since the start, can say that many people at the local I attend would be much more in favor of keeping customs on were there to be bans. So, it would probably be in our best interest to bite the bullet and see what three we could ban to stamp out the most controversial strategies present.
So, does anyone agree with this?

People who still think Wind Kong is a problem are really not paying attention and just parroting the meme that's grown out of it. It has as much basis in reality as the "Mii Swordfighter is bottom tier" meme from months back. Banning Wind Kong is basically like banning Super Speed - you're removing that which allows the character to be competitive with high tiers at all.

Timber Counter is really a different proposition, because essentially all of its (perceived) issues come from a combination of it and Exploding Balloon Trip - otherwise, it is powerful but not overwhelming. (As I've mentioned somewhere else, I personally believe the Timber Counter "gameplan" is largely equivalent to default Pac-Man's gameplan, only with superior residual damage output.)