Important Official Custom Moveset Project

[Raijinken]

But he doesn't want sheik to be nerfed...

Since her customs are lackluster in most cases, this probably means "I don't want customs until Sheik gets even more broken because of them"

Still, I agree with the social media war. Unfortunately, when it comes down to debate, noise and mobocracy trump logic and reason. So unless Reddit has suddenly become logical and reasonable, we've already lost on that front. It's also hard to use logic and reasoning outside of the echo chamber when essentially every non-customs player I know (or have heard of) essentially plugs their ears and says "Blah blah I'm not listening because you're suggesting we play with Extreme Balloon Trip."

We were hoping EVO would prove customs useful. All it proved was that they're not relevant when it comes to shoving Sheik off her throne. To pro-customs, that means leave them on because they don't hurt. To anti-customs, that just means there's no point so save the effort.

The very nature of the anti-customs setting the rules of the argument (by essentially being on the side that has to be replaced) means it's heads they win, tails we lose.

More than the social media war, we just need some popular TO with a lot of sway to say "Customs are on. Period." and run with it. But that won't happen since pleasing the people who shout and cheer every time customs are turned off, and in turn, keeping their money flowing in, matters more than any amount of variety, balance, or fun offered by customs.

 

[PUK]

Since her customs are lackluster in most cases, this probably means "I don't want customs until Sheik gets even more broken because of them"

Still, I agree with the social media war. Unfortunately, when it comes down to debate, noise and mobocracy trump logic and reason. So unless Reddit has suddenly become logical and reasonable, we've already lost on that front. It's also hard to use logic and reasoning outside of the echo chamber when essentially every non-customs player I know (or have heard of) essentially plugs their ears and says "Blah blah I'm not listening because you're suggesting we play with Extreme Balloon Trip."

We were hoping EVO would prove customs useful. All it proved was that they're not relevant when it comes to shoving Sheik off her throne. To pro-customs, that means leave them on because they don't hurt. To anti-customs, that just means there's no point so save the effort.

The very nature of the anti-customs setting the rules of the argument (by essentially being on the side that has to be replaced) means it's heads they win, tails we lose.

More than the social media war, we just need some popular TO with a lot of sway to say "Customs are on. Period." and run with it. But that won't happen since pleasing the people who shout and cheer every time customs are turned off, and in turn, keeping their money flowing in, matters more than any amount of variety, balance, or fun offered by customs.

Most people doesn't know how to truly use custom, therefore EVO proved nothing. Look at Esam, the one who was claiming Custom pikachu was OP, unless against Regi, custom did not make him win.

 

[Raijinken]

Most people doesn't know how to truly use custom, therefore EVO proved nothing. Look at Esam, the one who was claiming Custom pikachu was OP, unless against Regi, custom did not make him win.

True enough. Bad use of "prove" there. But the idea remains: People are interpreting it as evidence that Customs aren't worth bothering with at the highest end of play.

 

[W.A.C.]

But he doesn't want sheik to be nerfed...

He's sick of character nerfs. After what happened to his favorite characters (Diddy Kong and Captain Falcon), I can't blame him. If Shiek got nerfed about as hard as Diddy Kong, he would probably need to pick up yet another character and grind like crazy.

 

[Raijinken]

He's sick of character nerfs. After what happened to his favorite characters (Diddy Kong and Captain Falcon), I can't blame him. If Shiek got nerfed about as hard as Diddy Kong, he would probably need to pick up yet another character and grind like crazy.

I feel sorry for people who can't be bothered to learn a new character.

Then again, Dota has gotten me used to characters swaying very quickly from broken to garbage. Smash has had nothing nearly so drastic.

 

[PUK]

He's sick of character nerfs. After what happened to his favorite characters (Diddy Kong and Captain Falcon), I can't blame him. If Shiek got nerfed about as hard as Diddy Kong, he would probably need to pick up yet another character and grind like crazy.

I can totally understand that. But asking for balance to something like custom move, which is way less unbalanced in itself than the cast is a little strong.
But yes he's right and as sakurai seems to understand buff are more necessary than nerfs, and he's right, custom move need rebalance.

 

[ZarroTsu]

I assume the next patch will affect customs, since there are "Nintendo Official" "tournaments" in the game as of last patch.

Likely to not be affected is equipment, which sorta sucks since equips are theoretically a really cool way to mod the game, but awful and broken in practice.

On the other hand, equipment being custom inclusive is possibly a large reason why they aren't or won't be balancing custom moves at all. A player screaming "This setup is overpowered" can easily be dismissed to assume the overpowered setup included +200 atk +100 def +0 spd set of equipment, and not just because they were running EBT.

Although a part of me wonders if there are "Nintendo Official" "tournaments" with customs, only because some players in the community have been pushing for custom legality. And then I wonder why the heck they don't add immediate move selection functionality.

Oh well. Fingers crossed.

 

[W.A.C.]

I feel sorry for people who can't be bothered to learn a new character.

It's obnoxious. There is no stability in who you main in this game. A player who wants to main a top tier so they can not be held back by their character can end up having their character nerfed hardcore.

Then again, Dota has gotten me used to characters swaying very quickly from broken to garbage. Smash has had nothing nearly so drastic.

Sounds like a lousy game.

 

[Raijinken]

It's obnoxious. There is no stability in who you main in this game. A player who wants to main a top tier so they can not be held back by their character can end up having their character nerfed hardcore.


Sounds like a lousy game.

Suit yourself. I prefer to relearn than to have miserable balance that never changes.

That and this "lousy game" keeps setting esports records on an annual basis. So maybe it's doing something right.

 

[LanceKing2200]

I kinda feel the need to play devil's advocate here...

I feel like a few of you aren't considering the fact that a number of players just flat-out don't like customs. Yes, there are pros and cons to a customs meta, and yes, there are legitimate reasons as to why they are interesting to have on, but if a player has tried customs significantly and decided that they don't like them and don't want to see them in tournaments then there really isn't anything to be done. People love to make No True Scotsmen arguments when it comes to how much time we have to have customs on in tournament to "validate" experimenting with them.

When Diddy Kong was the king of S4, people were super in favor of customs. Nearly everyone was at least willing to give them a shot. As time went on though, imbalances were found, and more and more top players started speaking out against them.

Then when the Diddy nerf came, a lot of people lost their reason to support customs, since the game got "de-centralized" from Diddy. (I still think the reaction to Diddy was hasty and over-reactive, he was not nearly as bad as people made him out to be, and the game was VERY new at the time, but that's another topic.) Despite this, however, numerous people said "let's give it more time, see how things settle" since customs had been confirmed for EVO at this point.

In the weeks leading up to EVO, public opinion pulled almost a complete 180, with disapproval of customs becoming the norm. As more and more tournament series were adopting customs in order to prep for EVO, many players who had only ever kinda heard of customs got thrust into them head-first, and had to learn to adapt, and quickly. This is when several glitches, exploits, and degenerate strategies involving customs came to light. Custom moves were being tested and used on a national scale, and it resulted in significant negativity towards them.

During EVO, a few custom related upsets did happen (like CaptAwesum) but the top players in the world largely ignored customs in bracket matches. I'm sure each had their own reason for neglecting customs, but the fact remains that customs were simply not used by a not insignificant number of players.

And now, post-EVO, we find ourselves in a situation where local events are dropping customs left and right, because A) no other major has announced the use of customs, and B) after having used customs for months and seeing how they affect the meta at all levels, players simply don't want them anymore.

It seems to me like we as a community gave customs a fair shot, and the consensus is that the majority of players don't want them. It sucks for those of us that like customs, but we can't exactly force them on the community if it doesn't want them. It also is unreasonable to just keep saying "let's keep using them for the next major, and see how things work out!". It isn't fair to people who have tried and do not like customs to continue to force them to play a game they don't want to play.

I'm the TO for the biggest Smash 4 tournament series in MA, and when we announced that we were dropping customs after EVO it was met with the cheers of 60+ players. I have been told by numerous people that they would simply stop playing smash 4 if customs became the standard.

Also @ Raijinken and other people making the comparison. Smash 4 is not DOTA. I have seen numerous people draw the comparison between custom moves and the flexibility of items in MOBAs like DOTA and LOL. I get the parallel, but there are many players who DON'T play those games BECAUSE they are too complex competitively. Even among fighting games Smash is pretty simple control and mechanic-wise, and many players enjoy it because of it's simplicity. Not all players find value in making the game arbitrarily more complex.

 

[GUIGUI]

ZeRo has mentioned he would only reconsider his stance on customs if future patches put in a lot of effort to make customs more balanced.

How can they be considered "unbalanced". EVO showed that 1111 was still a viable choice when customs are on.

I kinda feel the need to play devil's advocate here...

I feel like a few of you aren't considering the fact that a number of players just flat-out don't like customs. Yes, there are pros and cons to a customs meta, and yes, there are legitimate reasons as to why they are interesting to have on, but if a player has tried customs significantly and decided that they don't like them and don't want to see them in tournaments then there really isn't anything to be done. People love to make No True Scotsmen arguments when it comes to how much time we have to have customs on in tournament to "validate" experimenting with them.

(...)

If one do not like custom, he simply doesn't use them. It's as simple as that. I don't see why other couldn't use them if other don't like to use them. It would be like wanting to ban a character because one don't like them.

EVO showed one thing: Customs are not broken and they are balanced enough that 1111 setting can hold just right. The only actual effect of the customs is that it make more character viable. it doesn't kill the 1111 setting, it enhances it.

If people want to keep playing 1111 character than can keep playing them.

 

[Raijinken]

Also @ Raijinken and other people making the comparison. Smash 4 is not DOTA. I have seen numerous people draw the comparison between custom moves and the flexibility of items in MOBAs like DOTA and LOL. I get the parallel, but there are many players who DON'T play those games BECAUSE they are too complex competitively. Even among fighting games Smash is pretty simple control and mechanic-wise, and many players enjoy it because of it's simplicity. Not all players find value in making the game arbitrarily more complex.

I actually wasn't referring to Dota's complexity at all in this case. I was referring to its balance, and the fact that it changes over time, and as a result, an otherwise frustrating game is somehow able to maintain a fresh metagame, a wide variety of valid choices and strategies, and continues to grow in reputation (as well as prize money) each year.

I don't think Smash is even capable of approaching a tithe of Dota's complexity. Nor do I think it should, because, as you mention, it's designed as an accessible funsies fighting game where Mario can punch Pikachu. But I do think that a more balanced game is a more competitive game, and a more varied game is more likely to be more balanced.

That's just my opinion, though. You and your players are welcome to disagree. I only support the customs scene.

If one do not like custom, he simply doesn't use them. It's as simple as that. I don't see why other couldn't use them if other don't like to use them. It would be like wanting to ban a character because one don't like them.

This is inspiring. I'm writing a No Sheik clause into my next ruleset because none of my attendees like her.

That was sarcasm for the sake of highlighting the irony of the situation.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I kinda feel the need to play devil's advocate here...

I feel like a few of you aren't considering the fact that a number of players just flat-out don't like customs. Yes, there are pros and cons to a customs meta, and yes, there are legitimate reasons as to why they are interesting to have on, but if a player has tried customs significantly and decided that they don't like them and don't want to see them in tournaments then there really isn't anything to be done. People love to make No True Scotsmen arguments when it comes to how much time we have to have customs on in tournament to "validate" experimenting with them.

When Diddy Kong was the king of S4, people were super in favor of customs. Nearly everyone was at least willing to give them a shot. As time went on though, imbalances were found, and more and more top players started speaking out against them.

Then when the Diddy nerf came, a lot of people lost their reason to support customs, since the game got "de-centralized" from Diddy. (I still think the reaction to Diddy was hasty and over-reactive, he was not nearly as bad as people made him out to be, and the game was VERY new at the time, but that's another topic.) Despite this, however, numerous people said "let's give it more time, see how things settle" since customs had been confirmed for EVO at this point.

In the weeks leading up to EVO, public opinion pulled almost a complete 180, with disapproval of customs becoming the norm. As more and more tournament series were adopting customs in order to prep for EVO, many players who had only ever kinda heard of customs got thrust into them head-first, and had to learn to adapt, and quickly. This is when several glitches, exploits, and degenerate strategies involving customs came to light. Custom moves were being tested and used on a national scale, and it resulted in significant negativity towards them.

During EVO, a few custom related upsets did happen (like CaptAwesum) but the top players in the world largely ignored customs in bracket matches. I'm sure each had their own reason for neglecting customs, but the fact remains that customs were simply not used by a not insignificant number of players.

And now, post-EVO, we find ourselves in a situation where local events are dropping customs left and right, because A) no other major has announced the use of customs, and B) after having used customs for months and seeing how they affect the meta at all levels, players simply don't want them anymore.

It seems to me like we as a community gave customs a fair shot, and the consensus is that the majority of players don't want them. It sucks for those of us that like customs, but we can't exactly force them on the community if it doesn't want them. It also is unreasonable to just keep saying "let's keep using them for the next major, and see how things work out!". It isn't fair to people who have tried and do not like customs to continue to force them to play a game they don't want to play.

I'm the TO for the biggest Smash 4 tournament series in MA, and when we announced that we were dropping customs after EVO it was met with the cheers of 60+ players. I have been told by numerous people that they would simply stop playing smash 4 if customs became the standard.

Also @ Raijinken and other people making the comparison. Smash 4 is not DOTA. I have seen numerous people draw the comparison between custom moves and the flexibility of items in MOBAs like DOTA and LOL. I get the parallel, but there are many players who DON'T play those games BECAUSE they are too complex competitively. Even among fighting games Smash is pretty simple control and mechanic-wise, and many players enjoy it because of it's simplicity. Not all players find value in making the game arbitrarily more complex.

It's the way they're saying it. If someone were to say "I just don't like customs" then there's not much of a conversation to be had there, fine whatever. But when I hear "customs are jank" (generally implying all customs due to the lack of specifying any) then I'll get defensive and point out that EBT and such aside, most are pretty well done and offer interesting-if-not-necessarily-superior options. When people complain about being restricted to 10 sets only, I have to remind them that EVO only did that due to time constraints forcing them to ban on-site set creation and that the project that created the sets in the first place explicitly encourages TOs to not include the last 2 sets per character so that players can make their own if they want, time and logistics permitting. When someone says they don't want to have to go through the trouble of learning what each custom does, I have to ask not only how that's any different from what learning entire characters do (especially relevant now that DLC characters are a thing), but why aren't they going to Youtube to watch any of the several different playlists that show off each custom and what they can do? When people call customs broken I'll remind them that EVO grand finals was default Diddy vs. default Sheik. When people say that the lack of impact at EVO from customs is grounds for not bothering with them in the future, I'll wonder if they would support customs anyway if everyone in top 32 used them or if they're literally just looking for an excuse to justify their belief.

</minirant>

 

[LanceKing2200]

If one do not like custom, he simply doesn't use them. It's as simple as that. I don't see why other couldn't use them if other don't like to use them. It would be like wanting to ban a character because one don't like them.

EVO showed one thing: Customs are not broken and they are balanced enough that 1111 setting can hold just right. The only actual effect of the customs is that it make more character viable. it doesn't kill the 1111 setting, it enhances it.

If people want to keep playing 1111 character than can keep playing them.

I don't think you understand. It isn't about just not using customs. I'm aware of the fact that even in a customs meta you can always choose 1111 and never have to learn a single custom yourself. The problem is that A) you still have to know how every other custom works, at lease in principle, so you know what to do when someone uses one, and B) the addition of customs changes the meta, including what characters get used and how they get used.

It isn't just an unwillingness to adapt from players, this is coming from players that have been playing in a customs meta for 7 months. What it comes down to is that people have played in both a customs on and customs off meta, and made the concious decision that they like customs off better, end of story.

Also it's super disingenuous to equate customs off with "ban a character because one don't like them". First of all customs on is not any sort of established meta. It isn't like we've been using customs for years and now some people want to turn them off. This sounds like an argument circa 2002 about having items on vs off in Melee.

Edit:

I actually wasn't referring to Dota's complexity at all in this case. I was referring to its balance, and the fact that it changes over time, and as a result, an otherwise frustrating game is somehow able to maintain a fresh metagame, a wide variety of valid choices and strategies, and continues to grow in reputation (as well as prize money) each year.

I don't think Smash is even capable of approaching a tithe of Dota's complexity. Nor do I think it should, because, as you mention, it's designed as an accessible funsies fighting game where Mario can punch Pikachu. But I do think that a more balanced game is a more competitive game, and a more varied game is more likely to be more balanced.

That's just my opinion, though. You and your players are welcome to disagree. I only support the customs scene.

DOTA and LOL use the balance method they do (frequent patches with swinging nerfs/buffs and seasonal "big" meta changes) because they operate on a free-to-play model, and need to keep players playing for long periods of time in order to get as much money from them as possible. By mixing up the meta with big balance changes they can keep people coming back because the game is always changing.

I know that Smash will never match them on complexity, and I agree with you that it shouldn't. I've had numerous players tell me that they wish there weren't any balance patches at all, except to fix bugs. They feel as though it gives people the mentality of "oh i'll just wait for my main to get buffed/their main to get nerfed" rather than getting better. Not saying that that's valid or correct, just something that I hear my players talk about.

 

[GUIGUI]

(...)

It isn't just an unwillingness to adapt from players, this is coming from players that have been playing in a customs meta for 7 months. What it comes down to is that people have played in both a customs on and customs off meta, and made the concious decision that they like customs off better, end of story.(...).

So basically, that means we should ban new DLC characters too, because players who have learned the meta for 7 months would have to then learn new movesets and play style.

Also, we should stick to the very first version of Sm4sh and ban game version who got balance patches, because they affect the moves of the characters and everyone has to adapt to a new meta they don't know about because of the move modifications?

 

[Steelballray]

If one do not like custom, he simply doesn't use them. It's as simple as that. I don't see why other couldn't use them if other don't like to use them. It would be like wanting to ban a character because one don't like them.

EVO showed one thing: Customs are not broken and they are balanced enough that 1111 setting can hold just right. The only actual effect of the customs is that it make more character viable. it doesn't kill the 1111 setting, it enhances it.

If people want to keep playing 1111 character than can keep playing them.

It's not as simple as that. You wish it was but it isn't. We all feel entitled to this game and we all see a way that it should be played. It's unfair for me to play against you when you have 4x of each speical move and I have the standerd one only. This ain't my argument against customs by any means and along the lines of @ LanceKing2200 have I ever seen my point addressed.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's not as simple as that. You wish it was but it isn't. We all feel entitled to this game and we all see a way that it should be played. It's unfair for me to play against you when you have 4x of each speical move and I have the standerd one only. This ain't my argument against customs by any means and along the lines of @ LanceKing2200 have I ever seen my point addressed.

Simply put I don't think whether 4 characters have customs should impact whether we allow the other 51 characters to use theirs.

EDIT: To clarify, I believe this for any given values in each position. Although if you try to ask me what I think about allowing sqrt(-1) characters to use their customs then I will not be happy.

 

[Steelballray]

Simply put I don't think whether 4 characters have customs should impact whether we allow the other 51 characters to use theirs.

Did you quote the wrong post or just misread mine? I meant that the situation isn't as simple as GUIGUI suggested. I am not just going to suck it up and get used to playing vs. custom characters when I think customs are **** and I decide not to use them. As long as the debate going and there isn't a law set in stone I am not going to succumb and neither do I think you will (or should)
I didn't mean to mention DLC characters or anything.

 

[GUIGUI]

(...) It's unfair for me to play against you when you have 4x of each speical move and I have the standerd one only. (...)

How could such a situation like this exists in the first place? you have as much access as me to all the custom. If you stick with 1111, it's simply that it's your prefered configuration and that's it. there is no invisible forces forcing you to only have this setting. furthermore, if custom is allowed, what will happens is that I will stick to my favorite setting and that's it, meaning than in the end, it's 1 favorite setting (1111) Vs 1 favorite setting (the preferred custom set). Not 1 Vs 4.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Did you quote the wrong post or just misread mine? I meant that the situation isn't as simple as GUIGUI suggested. I am not just going to suck it up and get used to playing vs. custom characters when I think customs are **** and I decide not to use them. As long as the debate going and there isn't a law set in stone I am not going to succumb and neither do I think you will (or should)
I didn't mean to mention DLC characters or anything.

I misread it, sorry.

 

[Raijinken]

I don't think you understand. It isn't about just not using customs. I'm aware of the fact that even in a customs meta you can always choose 1111 and never have to learn a single custom yourself. The problem is that A) you still have to know how every other custom works, at lease in principle, so you know what to do when someone uses one, and B) the addition of customs changes the meta, including what characters get used and how they get used.

It isn't just an unwillingness to adapt from players, this is coming from players that have been playing in a customs meta for 7 months. What it comes down to is that people have played in both a customs on and customs off meta, and made the concious decision that they like customs off better, end of story.

Also it's super disingenuous to equate customs off with "ban a character because one don't like them". First of all customs on is not any sort of established meta. It isn't like we've been using customs for years and now some people want to turn them off. This sounds like an argument circa 2002 about having items on vs off in Melee.

Edit:


DOTA and LOL use the balance method they do (frequent patches with swinging nerfs/buffs and seasonal "big" meta changes) because they operate on a free-to-play model, and need to keep players playing for long periods of time in order to get as much money from them as possible. By mixing up the meta with big balance changes they can keep people coming back because the game is always changing.

I know that Smash will never match them on complexity, and I agree with you that it shouldn't. I've had numerous players tell me that they wish there weren't any balance patches at all, except to fix bugs. They feel as though it gives people the mentality of "oh i'll just wait for my main to get buffed/their main to get nerfed" rather than getting better. Not saying that that's valid or correct, just something that I hear my players talk about.

For some non-Free-To-Play examples, then, I present CS:GO and Starcraft: Brood War (SC2 is miserable at this point).

The balance entitlement argument can work any which way, but from a purely competitive stance (which I don't personally follow), it's a john. To such a competitor, the only thing that should matter is winning within the rules of the game (whatever those may be). And while exceptions are certainly known, the standard is to always play on the newest version of the game (in the patch version sense, not the Smash 4 vs Brawl vs Melee vs 64 sense).

But that's another thing I've just gotten used to playing Dota and Starcraft and Smash 4 and Planetside and the like. Things will (and in many cases, should) change in terms of strength, and your options are to stick with what you learned and just learn the differences, or swap to whatever the new cool toy on the block is.

With customs, it's hard to use the balance card convincingly for either side. Customs clearly have a minimal impact at the top level of play. But they also haven't been tweaked independently of their originals, bar Miis (another frustrating part of the entire debate). The dubious validity of discounting (or counting) changes that affected both defaults and customs makes that part hard to account for, too.

I personally just don't see a reason to ban anything short of overcentralizing. And I've yet to become convinced anything but Extreme Balloon Trip is overcentralizing (aside from pre-nerf Diddy).

 

[LanceKing2200]

Honestly, I personally love customs. But as a TO 90% of the reason I'm no longer in favor of them competitvely is how many logistical problem they present. In no particular order:

-Getting sets loaded onto consoles
-How sets are determined
-Importing characters from 3DS
-Only having 10 slots (and making new sets taking more time than it should)
-DLC characters not having customs
-Miis and their unique issues (like size)
-Having all customs info available to all players, including casual ones
-Explaining new terminology and what it means
-Balance issues

And a bunch of other stuff. Even if each of these has an answer, it involves at least a conversation, and at most a community dividing argument. If customs were simpler to implement I feel like a lot more people would be in favor of them.

 

[GUIGUI]

(...) I am not just going to suck it up and get used to playing vs. custom characters when I think customs are **** and I decide not to use them.(...)

You could use that exact same argument against any character you don't like or New DLC characters. You are basically saying "I don't want it to be allowed because I don't like when I have to fight against it".

Was that argument used to ban Metaknight in Brawl?

Honestly, I personally love customs. But as a TO 90% of the reason I'm no longer in favor of them competitvely is how many logistical problem they present. In no particular order:

-Getting sets loaded onto consoles
-How sets are determined
-Importing characters from 3DS
-Only having 10 slots (and making new sets taking more time than it should)
-DLC characters not having customs
-Miis and their unique issues (like size)
-Having all customs info available to all players, including casual ones
-Explaining new terminology and what it means
-Balance issues

And a bunch of other stuff. Even if each of these has an answer, it involves at least a conversation, and at most a community dividing argument. If customs were simpler to implement I feel like a lot more people would be in favor of them.

Logistic is the only valid argument I have ever seen against customs.

 

[Steelballray]

You could use that exact same argument against any character you don't like or New DLC characters. You are basically saying "I don't want it to be allowed because I don't like when I have to fight against it".

Was that argument used to ban Metaknight in Brawl?

You think of customs as something small but I think its too absurd. This is how arguments should and WILL go. I will think something and you will think something else. Same is going to happen if a stage discussion arose. Why don't we play tournaments on all stages and why don't we consider allowing items and equipment while we're at it? Someone could argue for these things and use your argument against you. (You are basically saying "I don't want it to be allowed because I don't like when I have to fight against it".)

Sorry man. I happen to hate customs like Satan but still I try to be as objective about things as I can. Try doing the same every once in a while.

 

[Raijinken]

Honestly, I personally love customs. But as a TO 90% of the reason I'm no longer in favor of them competitvely is how many logistical problem they present. In no particular order:

-Getting sets loaded onto consoles
-How sets are determined
-Importing characters from 3DS
-Only having 10 slots (and making new sets taking more time than it should)
-DLC characters not having customs
-Miis and their unique issues (like size)
-Having all customs info available to all players, including casual ones
-Explaining new terminology and what it means
-Balance issues

And a bunch of other stuff. Even if each of these has an answer, it involves at least a conversation, and at most a community dividing argument. If customs were simpler to implement I feel like a lot more people would be in favor of them.

I generally agree with that list of issues. But I've also been involved in the debate enough to have solved all of those for the majority of tournaments (especially smaller ones).

Miis, though, are distinct from customs. They've no reason to be excluded from the game unless you propose banning three characters just because.

You are basically saying "I don't want it to be allowed because I don't like when I have to fight against it".

That exact reasoning is what the most vocal anti-customs players have turned to when logistics have been solved.

So, if it's a valid argument for one team, why isn't it for the other?

Frankly, the only way to "solve" these issues are to actually adopt a minimalist ruleset, and be minimalist for the sake of being minimalist. But that'll never happen, so we're stuck with this hypocrisy of complicating the game with stage selection (and the rules and legalities therein) while refusing to complicate the game with custom moves. Smash offers way too many options for anyone to really just settle for anything but their preferred ruleset. It's like American politics all over again.

 

[PUK]

But we, as a community are in charge or running our own tournament.
Pro custom people are mostly motivated, since they are actively against what the see as the past. I don't think it would be hard to resolve the logistical problem by gathering more hands.
pls test it declare that you accept to run custom tournaments, but since you don't have the set ups, and since it may take more time you need help.
I think you even could do that for default tournaments as well.

 

[Raijinken]

But we, as a community are in charge or running our own tournament.
Pro custom people are mostly motivated, since they are actively against what the see as the past. I don't think it would be hard to resolve the logistical problem by gathering more hands.
pls test it declare that you accept to run custom tournaments, but since you don't have the set ups, and since it may take more time you need help.
I think you even could do that for default tournaments as well.

I'm convinced that if my first time running a tournament, I was able to get five setups without an issue or motivation, and was able to upload all the relevant customs (easy to identify by asking attendees "what customs ya want?") before or during the event without holding up anything but friendlies, that any large TO should be able to do the same, unless they're just that bad at running events. Which I like to think they aren't.

 

[PUK]

Large Tournament are other scale, and have other problem. An issue like finding someone among 500 is something i understand. Or finding a set up for each fight etc.
But yes at a local level, a TO should ask for help anyway, because everyone like when everything goes smoothly.
And now that we are free from using CRT, asking for more complete set up should be even more possible.

 

[GUIGUI]

You think of customs as something small but I think its too absurd. This is how arguments should and WILL go. I will think something and you will think something else. Same is going to happen if a stage discussion arose. Why don't we play tournaments on all stages and why don't we consider allowing items and equipment while we're at it? Someone could argue for these things and use your argument against you. (You are basically saying "I don't want it to be allowed because I don't like when I have to fight against it".)

Sorry man. I happen to hate customs like Satan but still I try to be as objective about things as I can. Try doing the same every once in a while.

Except it's not really the same.
The matter of items and legal stage are a matter of making the tournaments as fair as possible, who carry a a reasonable sense of objectivity.

On the other hand, unless I am misreading you, the sole point you bring to ban custom is because "you don't like it", which is a subjective point. Of all the reason to make something legal or not "I personally don't like it" should not be considered a legit point.

Try doing the same every once in a while.

The funny thing is, I have been objective about that matter. The point I was trying to bring to you is precisely that your reason for not wanting customs is a subjective one ("I don't like it"), not an objective one.

 

[Steelballray]

Except it's not really the same.
The matter of items and legal stage are a matter of making the tournaments as fair as possible, who carry a a reasonable sense of objectivity.

On the other hand, unless I am misreading you, the sole point you bring to ban custom is because "you don't like it", which is a subjective point. Of all the reason to make something legal or not "I personally don't like it" should not be considered a legit point.


The funny thing is, I have been objective about that matter. The point I was trying to bring to you is precisely that your reason for not wanting customs is a subjective one ("I don't like it"), not an objective one.

I haven't mentioned my reason for disliking them so quit putting words into my mouth. They are not the same. But the argument you are using could be used to defend or attack anything. And let's be honest here. If there's a stage that you don't like you'd do your best to ban it. Things doesn't have to be outrageously illogical ior stupid for a human to not want them. Preferences are a thing. We are in a phase where nothing is really decided so why not push for my preferences? None of us are angelic beings who would push for the greater good if it goes against what we want.

Edit: For the sake of it I'll just say my reason.
I don't want counter picking customs to be a part of Smash. You can say that it's the same as counter stages but I don't think it is. You can say I'm too lazy to learn them but I play LoL and I'm surely not lazy about learning items and how can I utilise them against what character in what situation, and recently, tons of characters and items were added and altered and I'm not lazy about learning any of them.

I just don't want something like customs to be a part of Smash. I want the game to be as straightforward as possible. And guess whats the least straightforward aspect that could be added to Smash? (Disregarding equipments but those are utter BS) so that's that. I don't think customs can add any kind real depth to the game. Not while most of them are ****ty versions of the original move made faster or whatever.

 

[ZarroTsu]

None of us are angelic beings who would push for the greater good if it goes against what we want.

And how did you come to this conclusion?

 

[Steelballray]

And how did you come to this conclusion?

Man.. I really wished no one would ask.

This is less about Smash and more about how I view myself and other humans. How can anyone judge anything objectively? Just how objective can a person get? We all have our preferences. We love some things and hate others and that will always cloud our judgement to a point where truth won't exist, and in my opinion it doesn't, not for us at least. Two people can look at one thing and they will see it in two completely different ways.

We can't see the absolute truth and therefore whatever we will be attacking or defending is only going to be what our preferences tells us to. Preferences that were shaped based on every thing you experienced in your life.

That's why I rarely care about what's wrong and right and only push for what suits me more. Which is really just what all humans do without realising. I'm no different, I do whatever I think is right but I'm more in peace with the fact that every single one of us is an asshole and is, in a way or another, completely wrong.

 

[Splash Damage]

I haven't posted in this thread in quite some time, as I've been more focused on developing myself as a player. Back when I frequented this and the customs thread, I hadn't even attended more than 3 tournaments and couldn't really say much from a legitimate competitive aspect, so I decided to go silent and let it develop itself. That said, after attended a MA tournament series for about 6 months and getting some legitimate experience, I decided I'd share a few things.
For the entire time that customs were allowed at the MA events, including the one monthly(Apparently scheduling was off, so there was only one monthly over the course of 5-6 months), I encountered exactly 6 people that used customs out of the 180 people that attended the course of the season.
1.A Dedede main who, despite picking a set with 2 non-default specials, did not use either of the custom specials once the entire match and switched back to default after game 1. I've never seen him use customs since.
2&3:Two Rosalinas who just used the top set(2211) and who both only used the shooting star bit four times at the start of the match and almost never again after that.
4.A Falcon main who almost always swapped to Windkong after losing a game.
5.In a single elimination $1 entry side bracket, a Dr. Mario, after realizing that Little Mac can counter the cape, switched to a random set featuring Gust Cape. He didn't even know that you can still counter Gust Cape.
6.Myself, and over the entire time the only custom I used was Flaming Straight Lunge, which served as a recovery mixup once a set at most. If i remember correctly I once used Guard Breaker as well, which only helped prevent me from a single edge guard.
This is why I can no longer fully support customs, even despite my fondness for them. I only encountered six people(Four if you discount myself and a side bracket) over the course of the whole season that used Customs, and none of them fully understood how to use them, they just picked them as a random counterpick and hoped they'd be able to save themselves with it. Customs, in this meta, are a mixup for mid-level players.
I see everyone-literally everyone-using the fact that they haven't been making top 8/winning tournaments as a defense for them, on the count of them not being broken or degenerate enough to win at a high level. This is very true and good proof that they aren't useful enough to take tournaments…
But to that, if they're not being used at a high level and aren't making a difference where it really counts, then is there even any point to their inclusion? At that point, all they're doing is changing who gets 64th and 86th. Two of the main times in recent memory where I can remember customs were used in top 8 of majors was by the Zero&Dabuz team in a doubles major(Where they showed off the Fox&Olimar glitch) and by Esam in most of his placings(Where he used HSB and the Thunder Wave infinite). Considering the fact that both of those cases involved players who disliked them& were partly/mainly using them to make a point against their inclusion is pretty disconcerting. Think about all of the effort we and all the TO's have done to get customs to work at all. We had to:
-Lab like crazy to determine the 10 best sets for all 49 characters&Miis
-Make numerous videos to display the best way to import them&get them on the systems
-Have the TOs spend countless more hours manually importing all arts for all 49 characters&Miis to all the systems at their venues
-Create descriptive spreadsheets&printable documents about customs
…All to have them never be used seriously by consistent top players, barring a few cases such as Nairo using one custom neutral with ZSS.
Customs are a mixup for players at a mid-level, almost never used at a high level as the people at that level have to use their time labbing against the windings and the villagers leaving them with no time to be labbing with their own character's customs. And when you consider that 90% of the playerbase is at a mid level and being forced such are forced to spend their time stunting their growth by using time to adapt to absurdly simple and easy strategies, odds are that they, the majority, will be pretty vocally sour against them and will swear against them(Like how Lance mentioned that the phrase "Customs are turned off" was met with 62 cheers and he was not kidding).
Out of a major tournament with customs legal, likely 25%(Just an analogy number, obviously not exact) of people use customs and 80% of that are people who just don't understand them and are using easy strategies to net a few wins against mid-level players, then lose in wave 2. 15% of the remainder are people who likely don't make it past wave 2 either. The remaining 5% is Esam, Nairo and John123456.
I don't know if all this effort is worth those types of numbers.

 

[Raijinken]

I haven't posted in this thread in quite some time, as I've been more focused on developing myself as a player. Back when I frequented this and the customs thread, I hadn't even attended more than 3 tournaments and couldn't really say much from a legitimate competitive aspect, so I decided to go silent and let it develop itself. That said, after attended a MA tournament series for about 6 months and getting some legitimate experience, I decided I'd share a few things.
For the entire time that customs were allowed at the MA events, including the one monthly(Apparently scheduling was off, so there was only one monthly over the course of 5-6 months), I encountered exactly 6 people that used customs out of the 180 people that attended the course of the season.
1.A Dedede main who, despite picking a set with 2 non-default specials, did not use either of the custom specials once the entire match and switched back to default after game 1. I've never seen him use customs since.
2&3:Two Rosalinas who just used the top set(2211) and who both only used the shooting star bit four times at the start of the match and almost never again after that.
4.A Falcon main who almost always swapped to Windkong after losing a game.
5.In a single elimination $1 entry side bracket, a Dr. Mario, after realizing that Little Mac can counter the cape, switched to a random set featuring Gust Cape. He didn't even know that you can still counter Gust Cape.
6.Myself, and over the entire time the only custom I used was Flaming Straight Lunge, which served as a recovery mixup once a set at most. If i remember correctly I once used Guard Breaker as well, which only helped prevent me from a single edge guard.
This is why I can no longer fully support customs, even despite my fondness for them. I only encountered six people(Four if you discount myself and a side bracket) over the course of the whole season that used Customs, and none of them fully understood how to use them, they just picked them as a random counterpick and hoped they'd be able to save themselves with it. Customs, in this meta, are a mixup for mid-level players.
I see everyone-literally everyone-using the fact that they haven't been making top 8/winning tournaments as a defense for them, on the count of them not being broken or degenerate enough to win at a high level. This is very true and good proof that they aren't useful enough to take tournaments…
But to that, if they're not being used at a high level and aren't making a difference where it really counts, then is there even any point to their inclusion? At that point, all they're doing is changing who gets 64th and 86th. Two of the main times in recent memory where I can remember customs were used in top 8 of majors was by the Zero&Dabuz team in a doubles major(Where they showed off the Fox&Olimar glitch) and by Esam in most of his placings(Where he used HSB and the Thunder Wave infinite). Considering the fact that both of those cases involved players who disliked them& were partly/mainly using them to make a point against their inclusion is pretty disconcerting. Think about all of the effort we and all the TO's have done to get customs to work at all. We had to:
-Lab like crazy to determine the 10 best sets for all 49 characters&Miis
-Make numerous videos to display the best way to import them&get them on the systems
-Have the TOs spend countless more hours manually importing all arts for all 49 characters&Miis to all the systems at their venues
-Create descriptive spreadsheets&printable documents about customs
…All to have them never be used seriously by consistent top players, barring a few cases such as Nairo using one custom neutral with ZSS.
Customs are a mixup for players at a mid-level, almost never used at a high level as the people at that level have to use their time labbing against the windings and the villagers leaving them with no time to be labbing with their own character's customs. And when you consider that 90% of the playerbase is at a mid level and being forced such are forced to spend their time stunting their growth by using time to adapt to absurdly simple and easy strategies, odds are that they, the majority, will be pretty vocally sour against them and will swear against them(Like how Lance mentioned that the phrase "Customs are turned off" was met with 62 cheers and he was not kidding).
Out of a major tournament with customs legal, likely 25%(Just an analogy number, obviously not exact) of people use customs and 80% of that are people who just don't understand them and are using easy strategies to net a few wins against mid-level players, then lose in wave 2. 15% of the remainder are people who likely don't make it past wave 2 either. The remaining 5% is Esam, Nairo and John123456.
I don't know if all this effort is worth those types of numbers.

In other words, we shouldn't use them for the same reason we shouldn't use the bottom half of the tier list. Because the time investment isn't worth the payoff.

 

[ぱみゅ]

@Steelball. Stop putting words on everyone's mouths. From Sakurai to everybody in this thread.

We do not try to mold the ruleset to our tastes.

I am a TO, and I dislike a huge number of characters, moves, tactics, and specially Smashville, Final Destination and Ω stages. But I don't ban them.
I sure try to invite players to use Customs and a wider set of stages, and so I allow them, but at the end of the day, they'll do what they want and pick 1111 characters to play on Smashville, and I allow that, too.

The world is not full of egocentric pricks trying to impose to others their preferences.


[Thinking a bit about it, when people don't like something that is not the norm, they can EASILY ban it, and there's usually no way that people that do can bring it to the table again.]

 

[Steelballray]

@Steelball. Stop putting words on everyone's mouths. From Sakurai to everybody in this thread.

I have no idea when I put words in anyone's mouth. Especially Sakurai since I think its more logical to disregard whatever he wants and think even if it goes against my argument or whatever. All I did was point out that you as a human would try to fight for whats convenient for you and what you view as right. This is the case with anything in life. This whole thing is a war and as much as I hate customs I can't blame you for fighting it.

We do not try to mold the ruleset to our tastes.

Man.. Can you reread my post? I know it sounds like philosophical nonsense but I really want you to at least understand my point, even if you're going to disagree with it anyway.

I am a TO, and I dislike a huge number of characters, moves, tactics, and specially Smashville, Final Destination and Ω stages. But I don't ban them.
I sure try to invite players to use Customs and a wider set of stages, and so I allow them, but at the end of the day, they'll do what they want and pick 1111 characters to play on Smashville, and I allow that, too.

Cause that war in the other hand is one you cannot win. If things were presented another way and you had it in your hand completely to decide something like the legality of Smashvile, who's to say you won't use that power to enforce your preferences and what you see as logical? Don't be acting like the two goody shoes hero of the story. This ain't an anime and if it was, none of us would be the main character.

The world is not full of egocentric pricks trying to impose to others their preferences.

Well.. it kinda is full of exactly that type of people. You're just as much of an egocentric prick as I am and every other person for that matter. for me, its just a matter of learning to live with that fact rather than act so self-righteous. You are not fighting for justice. You are only fighting for what you think is justice. Normal everyday stuff I would say, if you are willing to look a little deeper into it.

[Thinking a bit about it, when people don't like something that is not the norm, they can EASILY ban it, and there's usually no way that people that do can bring it to the table again.]

I guess that's a reason why both parties are fighting this fight so fiercely. If customs become the norm, I am basically going to become a part of this second party that will have a hard to an impossible time fighting for what we think is right. Same applies to you.

 

[GUIGUI]

I haven't mentioned my reason for disliking them so quit putting words into my mouth.

Sorry, but earlier you said no one was adressing your points, so reading your posts, I tried to understand them and address them. you not actually mentionning them might have been the cause of misuderstanding you.

They are not the same. But the argument you are using could be used to defend or attack anything. And let's be honest here. If there's a stage that you don't like you'd do your best to ban it. Things doesn't have to be outrageously illogical ior stupid for a human to not want them. Preferences are a thing. We are in a phase where nothing is really decided so why not push for my preferences? None of us are angelic beings who would push for the greater good if it goes against what we want.

No, I wouldn't actually do my best to ban it. I don't like Smashville very much, but I can with no difficulty see why it is legal and I would consider silly for myself to ever start thinking about banning it.

Edit: For the sake of it I'll just say my reason.
I don't want counter picking customs to be a part of Smash. You can say that it's the same as counter stages but I don't think it is. You can say I'm too lazy to learn them but I play LoL and I'm surely not lazy about learning items and how can I utilise them against what character in what situation, and recently, tons of characters and items were added and altered and I'm not lazy about learning any of them.

I just don't want something like customs to be a part of Smash. I want the game to be as straightforward as possible. And guess whats the least straightforward aspect that could be added to Smash? (Disregarding equipments but those are utter BS) so that's that.

So, you are basically saying you don't want Smash to be too complex? Or that you don't like the complexity brought by customs? once again, even tough you have no problem with DOTA being complex? Once again, unless I am misunderstanding you, it seems that the only reason you don't want them is because "you don't like the complexity it brings Sm4sh"

I don't think customs can add any kind real depth to the game. Not while most of them are ****ty versions of the original move made faster or whatever.

It has, at the very least, the advantage of making more characters viable, seeing as not all customs move make all characters worst.

 

[GUIGUI]

(...)
This is why I can no longer fully support customs, even despite my fondness for them. I only encountered six people(Four if you discount myself and a side bracket) over the course of the whole season that used Customs, and none of them fully understood how to use them, they just picked them as a random counterpick and hoped they'd be able to save themselves with it. Customs, in this meta, are a mixup for mid-level players.

You do realise this is basically a Self-fulfilling prophecy, right: nobody use the customs, so nobody should do it. People being inexperienced with Customs should not be the stopping line. The stopping line should be that when there is actually put in some good use, it come out of it and you realize it make the meta worst, as it happened with the items in early Smash days.

I might add that something not being used doesn't need to be banned, as it is not used in the first place.

I see everyone-literally everyone-using the fact that they haven't been making top 8/winning tournaments as a defense for them, on the count of them not being broken or degenerate enough to win at a high level. This is very true and good proof that they aren't useful enough to take tournaments…(...)

EVO had customs in its top 8. and unlike what you are describing, people knew how to use it.

 

[Steelballray]

Sorry, but earlier you said no one was adressing your points, so reading your posts, I tried to understand them and address them. you not actually mentionning them might have been the cause of misuderstanding you.

Its alright. Sorry for getting too agitated about it.

No, I wouldn't actually do my best to ban it. I don't like Smash town very much, but I can with no difficulty see why it is legal and I would consider silly for myself to ever start thinking about banning it.

Exactly my point. what if it wasn't silly to consider banning them? A thing is only considered silly when it goes against the norm. I am sorry but I don't believe in good pure intentions. If it was a war that you were capable of fighting and winning you might as well have. Everyone can be like "I don't like so and so but I wouldn't want it banned!" and needless to say I am not about to swallow that. Its either 1- You don't hate this thing enough to make a move against it 2- You do hate it enough but its just that its viewed as the norm and you won't be winning **** over the average mainstream masses who stand against you any time soon.

So, you are basically saying you don't want Smash to be too complex? Or that you don't like the complexity brought by customs? once again, even tough you have no problem with DOTA being complex? Once again, unless I am misunderstanding you, it seems that the only reason you don't want them is because "you don't like the complexity it brings Sm4sh"

I am not with or against complexity in general. In DOTA and LoL I think its good. It is the core of the game after all. The depth is there. Items and champions aren't simply a stronger or more defensive versions of each other. Also, they are always well maintained and patched regularly to make sure everything is balanced. In Sm4sh, customs are ass. they are ugly, made in a rush and some of them are just outright stupid. That's the first side of the coin, the other one is that I don't see Sm4sh being that type of game. When I first heard of customs the first time I had no fear of them being broken or whatever, I just really didn't want them to be used for counterpicking and stuff. I just don't think they are going to add anything of real value and I see no way that they will be able to make the game interesting. I think in Smash, the more straightforward things are, the better they would be.

It has, at the very least, the advantage of making more characters viable, seeing as not all customs move make all characters worst.

That's good and all but its still a situation where cons outweigh the pros by a mile, at least for me.

 

[GUIGUI]

(...) In Sm4sh, customs are ***. they are ugly, made in a rush and some of them are just outright stupid.(...)

The thing is, they can't be considered broken if using them against standard move still result in balanced matches. If some custom are simply stupid, then they will not be used. There is no need to ban something no one will use.

That's good and all but its still a situation where cons outweigh the pros by a mile, at least for me.

You are putting into the balance "having more viable characters" against "I don't think Sm4sh is made to be complex". Miles is certainly not the good scale of measurement, there (nor the right kind of unit, if one want to be picky, but who care?) Not to mention, I still have difficulty to grasp your level of frustration. You are playing sm4sh, minding you own business, when suddenly this ******* barge in and select custom moves to play against you. what is so different for you than playing against someone using standard movesets? Why is the game suddenly ruined? Is it less satisfying to beat the crap out of him if he used custom moves?

edit: wait, the word used to describe the child that was born outside of the sanctity of marriage is also considered a curse word? Oh my...