Important Official Custom Moveset Project

[Steelballray]

The thing is, they can't be considered broken if using them against standard move still result in balanced matches. If some custom are simply stupid, then they will not be used. There is no need to ban something no one will use.

What I meant by stupid are stuff like extreme camping trip villager or HSB Electric Rat. How many thoughts do you think were put into those? Add air binder Kong to that list as well.

Sheik is going to get nerfed, but these things will not.
And yeah you can say they aren't broken but they are ****ty enough for me to want them out.
Add that to my previous main point about disliking the concept of counter picking with customs and that's pretty much all I have to say about the subject.

 

[Steelballray]

You are putting into the balance "having more viable characters" against "I don't think Sm4sh is made to be complex". Miles is certainly not the good scale of measurement, there (nor the right kind of unit, if one want to be picky, but who care?) Not to mention, I still have difficulty to grasp your level of frustration. You are playing sm4sh, minding you own business, when suddenly this ******* barge in and select custom moves to play against you. what is so different for you than playing against someone using standard movesets? Why is the game suddenly ruined? Is it less satisfying to beat the crap out of him if he used custom moves?

Well.. A camping villager or HSB Pika killing me at 50% will **** up the experience for me a fair bit. And If he chose customs corresponding to my character that's something that I will naturally dislike too, since I believe that Sm4sh shouldn't be this type of game. What's the difference between that and someone forcing you to play in a stage that you think should be illegal anyway? It sounds like the same concept. Someone wants to play with a certain thing and the other person think that this certain thing is stupid. Sure the second person can play and win but as long as he can why wouldn't he try to ban the things that he hate?

 

[Splash Damage]

In other words, we shouldn't use them for the same reason we shouldn't use the bottom half of the tier list. Because the time investment isn't worth the payoff.

Essentially yes, thats exactly what I'm saying. But we don't have to spend hundreds of collective hours to get the bottom half of the tierlist to even begin working on the systems. They're there, full and completed, from the very start. No 56 page smash boards threads, no 4-hour long import binge or 3-hour long set-making binge.

Let me make this clear:I don't think they should be banned for this, that's not the way I'm looking at it. I just think they're not worth all the time they take to even be on the systems, let alone be labbed for/against by the players, have the meta develop through the weekly events, have all the discussion about a new season and updates for them, and on and on and on. Honestly, I just don't see how the work is worth the payout.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Sure the second person can play and win but as long as he can why wouldn't he try to ban the things that he hate?

"Things x hate" is a very broad exploitative. I could say I hate a certain player. Should I advocate to ban this player from tournaments, because I dislike them? It's equally unfair to this particular player -- but this player is not me. Why do I care about this player? So ban them. They don't deserve to play.

Or is that somehow wrong of me, to do what I can to get what I want? Is it wrong of me to spread rumors and lies about this person to get what I want? Is it wrong of me to manipulate the perception of this person to get what I want? All these things are methods to reach my goal. They result in the thing I want.

And why stop there? Why shouldn't I simply strive to ban every player who's better than me? I don't like losing, after all. Losing isn't fair to me.

 

[Steelballray]

"Things x hate" is a very broad exploitative. I could say I hate a certain player. Should I advocate to ban this player from tournaments, because I dislike them? It's equally unfair to this particular player -- but this player is not me. Why do I care about this player? So ban them. They don't deserve to play.

Or is that somehow wrong of me, to do what I can to get what I want? Is it wrong of me to spread rumors and lies about this person to get what I want? Is it wrong of me to manipulate the perception of this person to get what I want? All these things are methods to reach my goal. They result in the thing I want.

And why stop there? Why shouldn't I simply strive to ban every player who's better than me? I don't like losing, after all. Losing isn't fair to me.

Well.. The way CaptainAwsum was treated in the most recent Evo, I assume lots of people wouldn't mind him being banned from tournaments forever.

I really wish I can take you on in this game but what I was implying with the word hate are things you think should be illegal (or the restrictions that goes against what you think should be legal.) So yeah. I'm sorry for not being clear enough, I guess. I thought what I was trying to hint at from the word hate at the end of my post was obvious since it was what I essentially tried to discuss in all of my previous posts, more or less.

 

[GUIGUI]

I have been thinking about what was said earlier about using media to make the Custom-side be heard better and get out of the echo chamber. Asking some personalities is not the good way to go. It's cheap and borderline to pundit strategy. this never smell well.

I think it would be much more constructive instead, and would bring the point far more successfully if Customs combo-videos were made instead. If we showed that customs is an opportunity for making far more combos than in the standard meta-game, much more people would be interested in them. It would show that customs isn't about finding new stalling techniques (which seems to be the actual reason steelballray don't want Custom).

Video a bit like this one for example:

(sorry, it's against CPU and use Asian-pop music, but you get the idea)

This, of course, requires work. It require that pro-custom players gather regularly, record their game and that one or several volunteer themselves to make interesting montages out of them. Waiting an sitting around in the hop things will resolve themselves on their own is the most likely way for Custom to remain banned forever.

Making custom enticing through nice combo videos, trying to gather pro-custom people who live close enough to make Tourney, make the hype rise. This is how it can actually work out.

 

[Steelballray]

It would show that customs isn't about finding new stalling techniques (which seems to be the actual reason steelballray don't want Custom).

bruhhhhhhh

 

[Raijinken]

I have been thinking about what was said earlier about using media to make the Custom-side be heard better and get out of the echo chamber. Asking some personalities is not the good way to go. It's cheap and borderline to pundit strategy. this never smell well.

I think it would be much more constructive instead, and would bring the point far more successfully if Customs combo-videos were made instead. If we showed that customs is an opportunity for making far more combos than in the standard meta-game, much more people would be interested in them. It would show that customs isn't about finding new stalling techniques (which seems to be the actual reason steelballray don't want Custom).

Video a bit like this one for example:

(sorry, it's against CPU and use Asian-pop music, but you get the idea)

This, of course, requires work. It require that pro-custom players gather regularly, record their game and that one or several volunteer themselves to make interesting montages out of them. Waiting an sitting around in the hop things will resolve themselves on their own is the most likely way for Custom to remain banned forever.

Making custom enticing through nice combo videos, trying to gather pro-custom people who live close enough to make Tourney, make the hype rise. This is how it can actually work out.

The only issue there is that people will probably latch onto Twisting Fox's early kill potential as an example of "janky nonsense that shouldn't be allowed."

Not that Hoohah was considered "janky nonsense that shouldn't be allowed" or anything.

 

[GUIGUI]

bruhhhhhhh

Sorry, did I get that wrong? when you were talking about camping trip villager or HSB pikachu, I honnestly thought this was what you were talking. I thought it was a valid point, I swear it wasn't meant to be mean spirited.

 

[GUIGUI]

If those videos got popular enough, it might be the opportunity to demand that the Equipment and Custom filter become separate things,for the online tourney. I don't know what is the best way to reach Nintendo to make them consider that point.

When the online tourney was announced, I thought it would finally be the opportunity to get more people interested in trying out and playing with customs, but with the equipments being indistinguishable from the custom moves, it made most serious fighter turn off the option. Missed opportunity, there.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I have been thinking about what was said earlier about using media to make the Custom-side be heard better and get out of the echo chamber. Asking some personalities is not the good way to go. It's cheap and borderline to pundit strategy. this never smell well.

I think it would be much more constructive instead, and would bring the point far more successfully if Customs combo-videos were made instead. If we showed that customs is an opportunity for making far more combos than in the standard meta-game, much more people would be interested in them. It would show that customs isn't about finding new stalling techniques (which seems to be the actual reason steelballray don't want Custom).

Video a bit like this one for example:

(sorry, it's against CPU and use Asian-pop music, but you get the idea)

This, of course, requires work. It require that pro-custom players gather regularly, record their game and that one or several volunteer themselves to make interesting montages out of them. Waiting an sitting around in the hop things will resolve themselves on their own is the most likely way for Custom to remain banned forever.

Making custom enticing through nice combo videos, trying to gather pro-custom people who live close enough to make Tourney, make the hype rise. This is how it can actually work out.

Dude those combos are amazing. I think that plus spreading hype custom tourney matches (this might be where M2K would come in) would help change the tide toward customs being a thing

 

[GUIGUI]

M2K must first think about his hand recovery, tough. And after that he will most likely focus himself to get back on Melee first and formost.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I agree videos like the ones @ GUIGUI posted would be a huge step forward for customs. I also agree that the difficulty lies in getting people to contribute to such a video in the first place. (I volunteer as tribute a punching bag if necessary.)

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I agree videos like the ones @ GUIGUI posted would be a huge step forward for customs. I also agree that the difficulty lies in getting people to contribute to such a video in the first place. (I volunteer as tribute a punching bag if necessary.)

I also volunteer as a punching bag. You could probably do hype stuff to Ganon that wouldn't usually work

 

[DunnoBro]

I just wish I was in capt.awesum's region to body him at any custom tourney he goes to

Almost jv3'd the last custom villager I played in tournament with DHD. That MU has to be like 70:30 at best if they don't use the real tree and be aggressive as hell.

 

[Splash Damage]

I just wish I was in capt.awesum's region to body him at any custom tourney he goes to

Almost jv3'd the last custom villager I played in tournament with DHD. That MU has to be like 70:30 at best if they don't use the real tree and be aggressive as hell.

I don't think you understand how much we all want that to happen here in NE.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I don't think you understand how much we all want that to happen here in NE.

and in New York.

 

[Kofu]

I just wish I was in capt.awesum's region to body him at any custom tourney he goes to

Almost jv3'd the last custom villager I played in tournament with DHD. That MU has to be like 70:30 at best if they don't use the real tree and be aggressive as hell.

This sounds interesting. How does the matchup play out with custom Duck Hunt? Default matchup feels pretty close to even but the inclusion of Mega Gunman would make a big difference.

 

[Unknownkid]

I just wish I was in capt.awesum's region to body him at any custom tourney he goes to

Almost jv3'd the last custom villager I played in tournament with DHD. That MU has to be like 70:30 at best if they don't use the real tree and be aggressive as hell.

Is there a stream for this?

 

[DunnoBro]

This sounds interesting. How does the matchup play out with custom Duck Hunt? Default matchup feels pretty close to even but the inclusion of Mega Gunman would make a big difference.

Definitely 70:30 if they don't use pushy. Mega blocks everything but pushy, but the real reason it seems bad for villager is DHD never has to approach him, and just one slightly dedicated move (even gyroid) means he's taking a lot of damage.
Zigzag is also a free and very rewarding challenge to the ledge stall. The balloons effect it little since it doesn't have a hitbox unless it's being shot. (Also, luckily if i screw up zigzag, a pivot pigeon shot from the positon zigzag works from is another ledge challenge)

Is there a stream for this?

Nah it wasn't streamed. Was just a custom local.

 

[Blobface]

So quick question for everyone: How likely is it that people will generally start allowing customs again? And how long do you think it'll take?

This thread indicates pretty strong support in Smashboards towards customs if the poll is any indication, so I really find it likely that a lot of customs off support comes from people that are just plain uninformed. How do we actually reach those players and convince them to support customs?

 

[Scribe]

I don't know. I personally support customs, and I think that CMP is a step in the right direction, but it still has its issues.

First of all, there's the sheer volume. 10 custom sets plus the default is a lot for most players to learn how to deal with. Simply put, when you have this many possible matchups, things get harder to balance, and yes, you have broken stuff like the tripping tree slip through. At the same time, a lot of low-tier characters benefit from customs and come out more viable.

Most other games that have multiple variations on a character often have only two or three choices, which is probably a much more manageable number of customs than 10. Plus, it leaves extra slots open for use in friendlies.

Which, in turn, creates the issue of maintaining a decent variety between them without making them so disparate that you have to take different approaches to dealing with them. Higher-tier characters may see less variation than lower-tier ones.

Of course, when you use a narrower list of customs, you also create the issue of having to spend more time narrowing down which combinations should be allowed, but overall, it could preserve the variety that custom moves provide while still maintaining proper competitive balance.

 

[Raijinken]

If people are afraid of the variety, they're more than welcome to deal with the numerous other tournament operators and attendees who are also afraid of the variety.

People in it for the depth will run customs, and learn them, and time-allowing, allow manual set input. People who aren't, won't. Hopefully we'll have more people interested in depth and dynamic character strategy.

It's the same way in any game with such levels of customization (or higher, see again the tired comparison to Dota). The more choices you have, no matter what seems optimal, the more variety you will see.

 

[Scribe]

I can understand why people would want the full set, but I'd also want to see, say a top 3 pick for the most viable, non-dominant options for each character. And more care put into making sure that dominant options that are strictly better than other tools a character has to work with like Villager's tripping tree and HSB Electric Rat don't slip through.

Even with the goal of having a full eleven movesets, if you try to eliminate both dominant and trap options - those that are strictly worse than other options - for each character, you're possibly going to run into the issue of certain characters not having a full set of ten competitively viable custom sets, and honestly? That's okay. The goals of having every set be competitively viable without being dominant while still having a decent amount of variety in custom sets should take precedence over filling each slot.

 

[Raijinken]

I can understand why people would want the full set, but I'd also want to see, say a top 3 pick for the most viable, non-dominant options for each character. And more care put into making sure that dominant options that are strictly better than other tools a character has to work with like Villager's tripping tree and HSB Electric Rat don't slip through.

Even with the goal of having a full eleven movesets, if you try to eliminate both dominant and trap options - those that are strictly worse than other options - for each character, you're possibly going to run into the issue of certain characters not having a full set of ten competitively viable custom sets, and honestly? That's okay. The goals of having every set be competitively viable without being dominant while still having a decent amount of variety in custom sets should take precedence over filling each slot.

The project in general becomes less effective with a hard limit, mostly because there currently isn't, and will rarely be, an objective best for all situations.

 

[Unknownkid]

So quick question for everyone: How likely is it that people will generally start allowing customs again? And how long do you think it'll take?

This thread indicates pretty strong support in Smashboards towards customs if the poll is any indication, so I really find it likely that a lot of customs off support comes from people that are just plain uninformed. How do we actually reach those players and convince them to support customs?

Very Unlikely. Unless another Major Tournament allow Customs and players stop discriminating against Customs/those who play with Customs, we will not see Custom Tournament again. There is a rare chance that your local scene (like San. local scene) will still continue the Custom reign. I guess it comes down to checking the Tournament Listing and finding a nearby scene that does Custom Tournament.

 

[Scribe]

The project in general becomes less effective with a hard limit, mostly because there currently isn't, and will rarely be, an objective best for all situations.

That... actually is a good point. Certain sets do actually work better against different sorts of characters, though that might contribute to a more counterpick-focused metagame.

But at the same time, the second point still stands. Certain options for some characters are so much better than the other tools (like tripping tree) that there's little point in picking something else. Likewise, some are inferior or at least extremely situational to such a degree that there's no point in using them (but most of those aren't used anyways, so it doesn't really matter there).

 

[Myed]

Certain options for some characters are so much better than the other tools (like tripping tree) that there's little point in picking something else. .

Timber Counter means giving up two of your few viable kill options on the ground (axe, tree growth). That is kind of a big deal. If you're up against an mostly aerial character (Jiggs, Rosaluma, Lucas, etc.) who's going to mostly be jumping around you/it anyway, there is little reason to give up said ko moves. Until Timber Counter/Exploding Balloon Trip is proven to be dominant (Didnt even make top 8 at EVO), it remains a good sidegrade, no reason to ban.

 

[Raijinken]

Timber Counter means giving up two of your few viable kill options on the ground (axe, tree growth). That is kind of a big deal. If you're up against an mostly aerial character (Jiggs, Rosaluma, Lucas, etc.) who's going to mostly be jumping around you/it anyway, there is little reason to give up said ko moves. Until Timber Counter/Exploding Balloon Trip is proven to be dominant (Didnt even make top 8 at EVO), it remains a good sidegrade, no reason to ban.

At worst I could see the ban justified for degrading Villager's strategy almost exclusively to planking and stalling to time, which is such an extreme and narrow strategy (with good payoff due to our time-out tiebreaker system) that it could fairly reasonably be called degenerate even without a general bias against defensive play.

But as far as the "issue" on those moves go, I'm thoroughly convinced Timber Counter itself is nowhere near to blame. Short of dedicated planking strategies, default Timber is a very good move, and people have found some benefits to the strong variant as well. At worst I could see banning EBT or just the combination of the two moves, but like you said, it didn't make near the money (even if a lot of people were appalled such a strategy made top 32), so I don't think there's any sort of balance justification against them.

 

[Blobface]

EBT could be banned pretty easily under the justification that it's going through the stage is clearly broken and not intended. Still not sure if that's necessary though.

 

[Raijinken]

EBT could be banned pretty easily under the justification that it's going through the stage is clearly broken and not intended. Still not sure if that's necessary though.

Default balloons do that, too, though. So it's pretty hard to call that "unintended," no matter how "broken" it may be since few, if any, other moves do that.

 

[Unknownkid]

I don't know guys. I mean Default Sonic, Sheik and Pikachu can play the stall game too. I am seriously wondering why we have not seen a campy pikachu yet. He has a good projectile, sort of ungimpable, break combos with Frame 1 Thunder and Quick Attack shenanigans. I know Sakurai and Friends made QA Ledge Cancel difficult to perform but man electric rodent is janky. I wouldn't be surprised if CaptAwesum use Pikachu for his time stalling strategy in Non Custom Mode.

 

[Scribe]

Huh.

I guess it might fall more under First Order Optimal Strategies, then. Stuff that's useful for an unskilled player but that more skilled players can easily counter.

 

[LanceKing2200]

I don't know guys. I mean Default Sonic, Sheik and Pikachu can play the stall game too. I am seriously wondering why we have not seen a campy pikachu yet. He has a good projectile, sort of ungimpable, break combos with Frame 1 Thunder and Quick Attack shenanigans. I know Sakurai and Friends made QA Ledge Cancel difficult to perform but man electric rodent is janky. I wouldn't be surprised if CaptAwesum use Pikachu for his time stalling strategy in Non Custom Mode.

CaptAwesum uses Villager and Olimar in non-customs I believe. He's actually going to be at a streamed, non-customs tournament tomorrow for anyone who wants to see how he does without them. Tournament thread HERE

 

[Mc.Rad]

I dont know if this has been posted on this thread before but there is an interesting video about customs from Relax Alax that might fit this topic
https://youtu.be/PdIgI63X2zk

 

[GUIGUI]

I dont know if this has been posted on this thread before but there is an interesting video about customs from Relax Alax that might fit this topic
https://youtu.be/PdIgI63X2zk

Yeah, but it's kind of more than a year old, there. He basically said in this video everything that was said in this thread.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yeah, but it's kind of more than a year old, there. He basically said in this video everything that was said in this thread.

tbh, at this point everything has already been said and parties are just cycling between arguments of "why" and "why not".

 

[Splash Damage]

I'd say the logistical concerns are a pretty big thing that I've never seen really thoroughly acknowledged and defended yet.

 

[ぱみゅ]

What logistical issue, exactly?
To load sets into each Wii U takes about 10 minutes (or less) with only one 3DS. To pick a Set from the CMP shouldn't take more than a second thought. To create a whole new character? There's a reason why EVO didn't allow it and thus the CMP catered to that.

 

[MajorMajora]

What logistical issue, exactly?
To load sets into each Wii U takes about 10 minutes (or less) with only one 3DS. To pick a Set from the CMP shouldn't take more than a second thought. To create a whole new character? There's a reason why EVO didn't allow it and thus the CMP catered to that.

I can't believe we aren't allowing the occasional fringe case of people making their own custom set and site time as the reason, yet consistently allow people to enter their own name tags. Same thing applies to FLSS and how it 'takes too long', but I digress.