Important Official Custom Moveset Project

[Myed]

That's not what I meant by dominant. I meant moves that are strictly better than the character's other options

Not strictly better, EBT has loss of recovery height or a ledgesnapping recovery, and Timber Counter comes at a loss of all of Villys viable KO moves on the ground. Taking these both together means you are completely depending on off-stage kills, and you become vulnerable coming back from off-stage. Both of these are very big downsides, hence why many of the CMP movesets have the alternate options available.

expect to do well against all but the most skilled of players.

Again, we dont balance for anything but the top skill level. If the top players have shown time and time again how exactly to beat it, its on you for not paying attention to the MU. There are multitudes of guides available on how to beat Customs Villager, look one up.
For example:
Take Villager to transforming stages as much as possible. The transformations prevent Villager from setting up her nest.
Dont take Villager to FD, ever. It is the easiest stage for her to fill the screen with projectiles with.
If you're Shiek, the Grenade's arc can bounce off the stage and gimp a planking Villager
If you're Rosaluma, you can jump and use your disjointed dair to pop the balloons, sending her into helplessness, then punish with aerial of choice.
If you're Ness, PKT can reach around the sapling and balloons, preventing her from planking
If you're Zelda, Din's Fire can reach under the stage and attack planking Villagers
If you're Fox, you can jump down and shine, hitting her and negating the balloons explosions
etc.

Like I said before, stuff like Tripping Tree + Exploding Balloons creates a situation where you can just plank for easy money

Its not 'easy money' if its not taking any notable tournaments, now is it? Its not 'easy money' if every top tier (see above for a few examples) has a move that can disrupt the planking without risk, now is it? Its not 'easy money' if the tactic gets pooped on by any player that bothers to learn the MU, now is it?

without having to actually hone your skill at the game.

I get that this is an opinion, but your opinion is wrong.
It takes skill to get wins. Hell, the genre itself is based around the idea of 'winning taking more skill than losing'
Any win is a win, whether it be 360 no-scope super hype Falcon Punch finisher, or an amazing 2-stock comeback, or a JV4 in which someone completely dominated, or by timeout.
Every single one of these is a valid, and yes, skilled, victory.
Villy Planking is not unbeatable, as proved time and time again.
You have the tools to stop her and take the stock.
If you don't know how to use those tools and lose, that is completely on you.
You lost not because of jank, or 'villager op ban plz', you lost because you were unprepared to deal with how the Villager played.
And yes, because that Villager won, she does have more skill than you, the loser.
So, you take a deep breath, and look up how to beat the MU by the people that whup her again and again. Then, you come back, and play her again with your 'anti-plank' knowledge fresh in your mind.
If she cant adapt to your new style of playing and loses, then yes, you are more skilled than her.

Sorry if this comes off as too vexed, I'm just rather tired of '______ takes no skill and is jank' being accepted as a valid arguement by the masses.

 

[DunnoBro]

After some more testing, yoshi's crushing bomb seems to have some potential. The main reasons being:

1: Egg Lay > Crushing Bomb

There's a lot of little reasons why this equals out to being so good.

a: crushing bomb kills sooner so it's worth going for sooner
b: due to this, egg lay at lower percents gives opponents less varying time on their mash to escape rate. so there's less room for error on your part and much larger reward
c: crushing bomb goes higher. default will get stuffed by certain aerials if the opponent mashes out into them properly due to default yoshi bomb and the opponent rising to about the same height. This also just makes it easier to time in general since there's a MUCH larger hitbox on the way down.
d: even if they come out too late, this does more damage than egg lay > usmash. all with the chance of killing the opponent around 50-70! With platforms, this can actually frame trap to be unavoidable by a lot of characters if you guess their escape time right.

There's also some situational air dodge and smash punishes but nothing as helpful as that.

Also, quick egg roll is pretty damn great. The main use I found for it is after the enemy's somehow gone pretty high up and yoshi's pressuring them with eggs... I fall with egg roll to rise back up to where yoshi was with both a hitbox (that can kill with rage when it hits that high up) and also more jumps to keep pressuring. This is especially potent with platforms. Since if yoshi baits an air dodge, he CAN punish it and kill by bouncing off a platform.

The fact the egg roll is pretty fast and meaty makes it seem like it's hard to challenge, doesn't seem like most simple combo breaker aerials can stuff it.

I think it should be on pretty much every set because of it. It's sooo good on platform stages. The stall it does in the air also helps mix up landings. (default does it too, but you're then stuck in front of the opponent... this lets you challenge them with a safe on on shield move and escape at the same time)

Also it's kind of hard to imagine it wasn't designed to be an air dodge punish since it goes back to the height yoshi was at when he initiated it.

 

[Raijinken]

I'm having an all-weekend-long smashfest with some friends and will definitely be putting some alternate custom sets to the test. With any luck I'll come out of it with some new trick I hadn't thought of before, hopefully one worth sharing. Any characters I should focus on?

 

[MrGame&Rock]

@ DunnoBro : right now none of the 8 movesets for Yoshi that I have use crushing bomber, but since I am half Yoshi main this intrigues me. I'll add a 1313 set to my personal setup, and/or a 1213 set (I like heavy egg roll because I hate egg roll and of the three, I lose the least from a missed input when using Heavy) and see what happens.

I'm having an all-weekend-long smashfest with some friends and will definitely be putting some alternate custom sets to the test. With any luck I'll come out of it with some new trick I hadn't thought of before, hopefully one worth sharing. Any characters I should focus on?

Off the top of my head: Jigglypuff, Pac-Man, Falcon, Bowser, Default height/weight Mii Brawler, and Game&Watch

 

[Raijinken]

@ DunnoBro : right now none of the 8 movesets for Yoshi that I have use crushing bomber, but since I am half Yoshi main this intrigues me. I'll add a 1313 set to my personal setup, and/or a 1213 set (I like heavy egg roll because I hate egg roll and of the three, I lose the least from a missed input when using Heavy) and see what happens.


Off the top of my head: Jigglypuff, Pac-Man, Falcon, Bowser, Default height/weight Mii Brawler, and Game&Watch

I run Custom Pac often, as well as default Brawler, so I may steer away from those. I'll definitely be running more FalcoN. I'll give the others a look as well. Maybe someday I will find a use for Spinphony.

Hah. Like that would happen. Maybe in doubles?

 

[GeneralLedge]

I ~think~ spinphony's intended use is a high off-stage trump of some kind. ie. some sort of fair/nair string into it to make your opponent go the wrong way when they desperately try to recover.

It comes down to whether or not the effect ends before you hit the bottom blast zone. I'm thinking "probably not", though (although this would make it a wiked game-ender if you manage to force your opponent to hit the side blast zone).

 

[Raijinken]

I ~think~ spinphony's intended use is a high off-stage trump of some kind. ie. some sort of fair/nair string into it to make your opponent go the wrong way when they desperately try to recover.

It comes down to whether or not the effect ends before you hit the bottom blast zone. I'm thinking "probably not", though (although this would make it a wiked game-ender if you manage to force your opponent to hit the side blast zone).

It feels like it was intended as a Cape-equivalent, but last I heard, not only is it harder in general to time properly, it also inflicts whatever property makes it refresh recovery moves (hitstun?), negating that use against almost all characters.

 

[Deleted member]

Any chance anyone has a 3DS save file that has all of these custom move sets already? Doing this all manually is taking forever. Might even take 3 hours for me to complete.

 

[DunnoBro]

Any chance anyone has a 3DS save file that has all of these custom move sets already? Doing this all manually is taking forever. Might even take 3 hours for me to complete.

https://gbatemp.net/threads/smash-3ds-moveset-save-editor.389468/

Save editor + Save file with all the EVO sets.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Any chance anyone has a 3DS save file that has all of these custom move sets already? Doing this all manually is taking forever. Might even take 3 hours for me to complete.

It took me around 3 hours to do everything, (and I only used the first 8 for each non-mii character) but I also got to do some neat things, like making each set a different palette swap and using my own personal miis and being creative with outfits/headgear. Im actually glad I did it manually

 

[DunnoBro]

I personally just sat in front of the list and named the sets first, can't remember how long it took, less than an hour for sure. Then actually assigned the proper customs to them later at my leisure, this let me do the hard, long part anywhere and I wouldn't need to constantly consult the list.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

So I'm currently looking through the character boards to sort of see the discussion that went on for the Project that resulted in the sets we have now, but it's kind of hard to follow. I'd be really interested in sort of a TL;DR summary of the discussion/consensus in each of the character boards that resulted in the sets we have now. Both out of curiosity and as a resource for someone looking to pick up a new character in a customs environment. A lot of the overviews on the custom moves that I found came around pretty early in the meta, so they weren't much help. Who else would be interested in this?

 

[Gunla]

So I'm currently looking through the character boards to sort of see the discussion that went on for the Project that resulted in the sets we have now, but it's kind of hard to follow. I'd be really interested in sort of a TL;DR summary of the discussion/consensus in each of the character boards that resulted in the sets we have now. Both out of curiosity and as a resource for someone looking to pick up a new character in a customs environment. A lot of the overviews on the custom moves that I found came around pretty early in the meta, so they weren't much help. Who else would be interested in this?

Well, we had to make the movesets rather earlier in the year. Each of the character boards has a thread that focused on this project, and some had easy times with their selection; others, not so much.

We'll eventually get working on a Winter one if things go to plan, and some sets will change for character boards that say so.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Well, we had to make the movesets rather earlier in the year. Each of the character boards has a thread that focused on this project, and some had easy times with their selection; others, not so much.

We'll eventually get working on a Winter one if things go to plan, and some sets will change for character boards that say so.

I've been checking out the specific threads on those boards (thankfully, they're pinned) and I suppose I've been looking at the more difficult ones. Even then, most threads opened with just listing sets, without much in the way of what those moves do or really even why they're preferable. Maybe after the winter sets are chosen there could be a "X's Custom Sets for Dummies" guide on why those sets were chosen and what the moves do? I'm one of the more invested players here in terms of customs and I got lost, so it pains me to think of how a new player would navigate this if their local scene prefers customs.

Basically, yeah I'm probably a lazy idiot, but I can't be the only lazy idiot here

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

These customs with relatively high skill barriers don't exactly encourage more newer players to join in on the "fun."

There's a line you have draw somewhere... It's hard to favor a strictly "competitive" ruling on the issue that also happens to alienate 1/4th of my scene. I'm the most "Spike"-minded of the players in my area, but I can't play that version of the game by myself either...

How about defaults with high skill barriers? I mean, sure, Kong Cyclone is a move that you need to understand to beat, but have you ever seen a new player trying to figure out how to play neutral against a diddy holding a banana? Or even a mid-level player? If you don't know how to handle it, you're going to just keep eating bananas non-stop and lose. How about Pikachu's bair? New players definitely don't know how to deal with that, while experienced players are a lot better at teching and not dying at 50 offstage. How about Luma? Seriously, nobody below a certain level knows how to deal with this character. This is nonsensical and inconsistent. We cannot balance the game around players who don't know how to play the game.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

So I don't wanna be that guy, but do we need two threads to debate the validity of custom moves? We have this for that: http://smashboards.com/threads/what-are-your-opinions-on-customs-post-evo-2015.410671/

I feel like instead of talking about custom moves as a whole, this thread should be more about the Project and how we might improve it going forward, or its own merits and flaws

 

[DanGR]

How about defaults with high skill barriers? I mean, sure, Kong Cyclone is a move that you need to understand to beat, but have you ever seen a new player trying to figure out how to play neutral against a diddy holding a banana? Or even a mid-level player? If you don't know how to handle it, you're going to just keep eating bananas non-stop and lose. How about Pikachu's bair? New players definitely don't know how to deal with that, while experienced players are a lot better at teching and not dying at 50 offstage. How about Luma? Seriously, nobody below a certain level knows how to deal with this character. This is nonsensical and inconsistent. We cannot balance the game around players who don't know how to play the game.

I think the mindset of some of my local players is along the lines of "we don't have to play with these difficult, spammable moves (as opposed to having to use defaults), so let's don't." To be fair, they are really spammable at really low levels of play, and pretty easy to use relative to pikachu bair, using Rosalina as a whole, and yes even bananas. Kong Cyclone is super easy to auto cancel for players of any skill level. Trip sapling you just put it there and you're done. Exploding balloons don't require any special spacing or thought if your opponents aren't good enough to spike you or don't have the confidence to go off stage at all. At these levels you just have to learn how to use 1, 2 moves and you're good to go. To them it's For Glory all over again. And they have the ability to remove what they perceive to be the cause of their frustration.

Scrubby? Yeah. Inconsistent? Yes, too. But will my scene attract/keep more players without customs? How many more? What kind of players do leave if we keep customs legal? I don't know, but these are important questions I have to ask, regardless of how scrubby and inconsistent banning customs might be. This is an extreme example, but I'd rather have 100 man custom-less tournaments than 50 man custom tournaments.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Scrubby? Yeah. Inconsistent? Yes, too. But will my scene attract/keep more players without customs? How many more? What kind of players do leave if we keep customs legal? I don't know, but these are important questions I have to ask, regardless of how scrubby and inconsistent banning customs might be. This is an extreme example, but I'd rather have 100 man custom-less tournaments than 50 man custom tournaments.

Who's to say you only lose and don't gain? What if there're players out there fanatic with customs who deem it pointless to go to tournaments because they're disallowed and shamed?

I don't doubt the loss of some players, but I do doubt the idea that nobody new will step in or be attracted. Why couldn't customs-on be considered attractive at all? If you could not for the life of you unlock customs, but you heard there's a place nearby where you could play with them against other players, why wouldn't you go?

And... what exactly are these players who 'leave because of customs' going to do? Host their own tournament? ***** on the internet? Sit in their bedroom and mope? I'd like to hope they're playing Smash because they like Smash, not because the ruleset is appealing.

And then there's an ultimatum: What if, and I know it's a big if, but what if Nintendo takes the next patch as an opportunity to balance every custom in the game? If Kong Cyclone's autocancel was made more laggy? If EBT collided with solid objects? If Trip Sapling lasted a much more limited amount of time?

What's the next reason customs will be banned for?

 

[Raijinken]

Who's to say you only lose and don't gain? What if there're players out there fanatic with customs who deem it pointless to go to tournaments because they're disallowed and shamed?

I don't doubt the loss of some players, but I do doubt the idea that nobody new will step in or be attracted. Why couldn't customs-on be considered attractive at all? If you could not for the life of you unlock customs, but you heard there's a place nearby where you could play with them against other players, why wouldn't you go?

And... what exactly are these players who 'leave because of customs' going to do? Host their own tournament? ***** on the internet? Sit in their bedroom and mope? I'd like to hope they're playing Smash because they like Smash, not because the ruleset is appealing.

And then there's an ultimatum: What if, and I know it's a big if, but what if Nintendo takes the next patch as an opportunity to balance every custom in the game? If Kong Cyclone's autocancel was made more laggy? If EBT collided with solid objects? If Trip Sapling lasted a much more limited amount of time?

What's the next reason customs will be banned for?

Just gonna point out again that regular Balloon Trip's balloons also go through terrain. It's in no way an unintended function.

Either way, if they got balanced, they'd just be banned for taking a while to unlock and "not being default." And if the other thread is anything to go by, the people doing the naysaying and banning will feel that those reasons are sufficient.

I'd also like to raise my hand as someone who (if there was one within even a few hours of where I live, which there currently isn't) would totally attend customs events and ignore defaults.

 

[Splash Damage]

I keep repeatedly seeing people claim that complaints from mid-level players about the problematic custom moves are irrelevant and should be ignored as customs should instead be balanced for top level players who know how to beat said problematic subjects. This is an at least understandable standpoint for the most part, however the problems arise when you consider that almost no customs are used by top players and that none of them openly support/endorse them. So if we were really balancing customs based on top level play, they wouldn't be used at all because at the end of the day, the personification of perfect top-level play at smash 4 scoffs at the very idea of customs, and all the rest of the top players hate them just as well, even when their characters get humongous help from them(Zero's Shiek, Esam's Pikachu, Dabuz's Rosa, M2K's DK, ect ect ect)

 

[Raijinken]

I keep repeatedly seeing people claim that complaints from mid-level players about the problematic custom moves are irrelevant and should be ignored as customs should instead be balanced for top level players who know how to beat said problematic subjects. This is an at least understandable standpoint for the most part, however the problems arise when you consider that almost no customs are used by top players and that none of them openly support/endorse them. So if we were really balancing customs based on top level play, they wouldn't be used at all because at the end of the day, the personification of perfect top-level play at smash 4 scoffs at the very idea of customs, and all the rest of the top players hate them just as well, even when their characters get humongous help from them(Zero's Shiek, Esam's Pikachu, Dabuz's Rosa, M2K's DK, ect ect ect)

Mew2King isn't a top player? Last I heard he supports customs.

Sheik doesn't get humongous help from them. Rosalina gets one mostly-upgrade and one sidegrade. DK gets less and less as his normals get better and better (and Cyclone is increasingly considered situational). Pikachu gets a move that goes from useless to useful.

Either way, usage does not determine banworthiness. Nor do the personal views of top players, since they don't write the rules, they just play by them.

At this point, at least the other thread seems to be trending towards "Let's stop arguing and just get customs in as a regular and widespread event like doubles, so that we can both be right."

 

[ぱみゅ]

So I don't wanna be that guy, but do we need two threads to debate the validity of custom moves? We have this for that: http://smashboards.com/threads/what-are-your-opinions-on-customs-post-evo-2015.410671/

I feel like instead of talking about custom moves as a whole, this thread should be more about the Project and how we might improve it going forward, or its own merits and flaws

iirc, it started by proposing the ban of certain Customs and boiled down to Customs legality as a whole.

But yes, nobody in this thread should question the Customs meta if this project is made FOR its sake, so it OBVIOUSLY takes their legality as granted and pretends to help it grow.
Doing so is probably derailing the project, and alas, borderline trolling.

I strongly recommend you all to move the legality discussion there, and let this thread be about how to improve this project.

 

[Raijinken]

I ran some numbers the other day, and if I counted right (might'a missed some), there are 88 moves that players do not need to unlock, as they don't appear in any set (the actual number thereby is 88 plus a few for Palutena and Miis perhaps). Revisiting those would probably be a good place to start.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I ran some numbers the other day, and if I counted right (might'a missed some), there are 88 moves that players do not need to unlock, as they don't appear in any set (the actual number thereby is 88 plus a few for Palutena and Miis perhaps). Revisiting those would probably be a good place to start.

Could you (or someone else) list them?

 

[Raijinken]

Could you (or someone else) list them?

I deleted my list as I was making it, but I'll recompile it. Gimme a few.

Posted the list in a separate post for easier and uncontaminated reference. I apologize for the double post but feel this was appropriate.

 

[Raijinken]

Here is a list of all Special Moves not present on one of the ten recommended sets as of the EVO version of the Custom Moveset Project.


Some Fun Statistics
Character with the most unused specials:
Second Place, 4 unused specials:
Characters with only one unused special:
Characters omitting more than one default special:

Total Unused Specials: 123 (25 default)

Every character had at least one move not present on any non-default set.



Default specials omitted from the project are highlighted in cyan.
Slots for which only move 1 was used are highlighted in yellow.
Slots for which only move 2 was used are highlighted in green.
Slots for which only move 3 was used are highlighted in orange.

Spoiler: Unused Moves

Neutral 3: Fire Orb
Side 1: Cape
Up 3: Super Jump


Up 2: Fiery Jump Punch
Down 3: Clothesline Cyclone


Neutral 3: Grumpy Toad
Up 2: Parasol High Jump
Down 3: Heavy Veggie


Side 1: Flying Slam
Up 2: Flying Fortress
Up 3: Sliding Fortress


Up 2: High Jump
Up 3: Timed Egg Throw


Neutral 3: Power Luma Shot
Down 2: Catch & Release


Neutral 2: Piercing Cannon
Up 3: Koopa Meteor


Neutral 3: Garlic Breath
Up 3: Corkscrew Leap


Side 1: Headbutt
Up 1: Spinning Kong
Up 2: Chopper Kong


Neutral 2: Exploding Popgun
Side 3: Flying Monkey Flip


Side 2: Extreme Judge
Down 2: Efficient Panic


Neutral 1: Straight Lunge
Neutral 3: Stunning Straight Lunge
Up 3: Rising Smash


Side 1: Gale Boomerang
Up 2: Shocking Spin
Down 2: Giant Bomb


Side 1: Din's Fire
Up 3: Farore's Windfall
Down 1: Phantom Slash


Up 2: Gale


Neutral 1: Warlock Punch
Down 3: Wizard's Assault


Side 3: High-Speed Boomerang


Side 1: Missile
Side 3: Turbo Missile


Neutral 3: Electromagnetic Net
Up 2: Impact Kick
Down 3: Low Kick


Side 2: Interception Arm
Up 3: Breezy Flight


Neutral 3: Heavenly Light
Side 2: Angelic Missile
Down 1: Counter


Neutral 2: Storm Thrust
Side 2: Effortless Blade
Side 3: Heavy Blade
Down 2: Easy Counter


Neutral 1: Eruption
Side 3: Unyielding Blade
Down 3: Smash Counter


Side 2: Arcfire +
Up 2: Soaring Elwind


Neutral 2: High-Explosive Shot


Up 1: Final Cutter


Side 2: Topspin Gordo
Up 3: Quick Dedede Jump
Down 1: Jet Hammer
Down 3: Dash Jet Hammer


Up 3: Lazy Shuttle Loop
Down 3: Stealth Smasher


Side 2: Fox Burst
Up 1: Fire Fox
Down 3: Amplifying Reflector


Side 2: Falco Phase
Side 3: Falco Charge
Up 1: Fire Bird
Down 2: Accele-Reflector


Side 1: Skull Bash
Side 2: Shocking Skull Bash


Down 2: Sinking Skull


Up 3: Extreme Speed Attack
Down 3: Stunning Double Team


Up 1: Sing
Up 3: Spinphony
Down 3: Wakie Wakie


Side 2: Shadow Strike
Up 2: High-Capacity Pump
Up 3: Single-Shot Pump


Neutral 3: Infinite Robo Beam
Up 1: Robo Burner


Neutral 3: PK Freeze
Up 3: Rolling PK Thunder


Neutral 1: Falcon Punch
Side 3: Wind-up Raptor Boost


Side 2: Liftoff Lloid
Down 3: Super Timber


Up 2: Winged Pikmin Jump
Down 3: Dizzy Whistle


Up 3: Hoop Hurricane


Side 3: Back Slash Charge
Up 3: Mighty Air Slash
Down 1: Vision


Neutral 3: Mega Capsule
Side 1: Super Sheet
Down 3: Clothesline Tornado


Side 2: Electrocut Arm
Up 3: Breezy Flight


Neutral 2: Storm Thrust
Side 2: Effortless Blade
Side 3: Heavy Blade
Down 2: Easy Counter


Side 2: Distant Power Pellet
Side 3: Enticing Power Pellet
Up 1: Pac-Jump
Down 3: Dire Hydrant


Neutral 2: Hyper Bomb
Side 2: Ice Slasher


Down 2: Auto-Spin Charge


Neutral 3: Exploding Side Kick
Side 3: Headache Maker
Up 1: Soaring Axe Kick
Down 1: Head-On Assault
Down 3: Foot Flurry


Neutral 2: Laser Blaze
Side 2: Stealth Burst


Neutral 3: Blade Fury
Up 2: Skyward Slash Dash

Please let me know if you see any issues in my counting or listing. I was judging this off of my own console, which had a few sets not included in the project (I believe I caught them all and double-checked by the list but some may have slipped).

 

[san.]

Ike's are pretty old.

Eruption
1>=2>3
Furious eruption is pretty laggy during the more damaging parts. The uncharged version is still quite good, however

Quick Draw
1>=2>>3
I first assumed quick draw's startup decrease would've helped 2 more, but it helps 1 just as much. Ike can use it to snap to the edge much more easily and quickly, as well as interrupt offstage strings with it more easily. 2 is still quite good, but it's difficult to get much reward from it. 3 is so underused that we have no idea if it's even usable with the startup decrease. 3 might be better as a recovery against some characters and better against some projectiles.

Aether
1=2>3
Aether 1 gets a good 13-20% off a punishment with possible fair followups or some spikes every now and then. Aether2 has the most raw damage and allows for better storage of one's double jump, but it's difficult to calculate the distance where it would snap. 3 is "faster" even though the startup is the same. 3 is safer to recover with most of the time with less reward, and has an alright projectile that's not currently underutilized. Once mastered, they may be equal with 2 having the slight edge.

Counter
1>=(2=3)
Counter and smash counter were patched to be stronger. Paralyzing counter sacrifices ease of use for a more consistent punish. Smash counter sacrifices more consistent punishes for a strong punish that's easy to activate, and is really there only for smash attacks and laggy tilts/aerials. Counter is a middle ground of the two.


Overall, Ikes like 1111 but small variations may be better on the MU to even out his spread. There is a learning curve for a lot of these customs.

 

[Raijinken]

Similarly, Mario and Doc have relevant reasons to take Cape/Super Sheet, though those aren't on any of the available sets. I've not personally contributed in the Marth boards, but no Marth or Lucina player I know thinks there's a point in Dolphin Jump nowadays.

This also doesn't take into consideration moves that are just generally underrepresented, it only covers what isn't represented at all.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Scrubby? Yeah. Inconsistent? Yes, too. But will my scene attract/keep more players without customs? How many more? What kind of players do leave if we keep customs legal? I don't know, but these are important questions I have to ask, regardless of how scrubby and inconsistent banning customs might be. This is an extreme example, but I'd rather have 100 man custom-less tournaments than 50 man custom tournaments.

So if a player considered quitting the community because of, say, Wario, what would you tell that player?

 

[ZarroTsu]

"WAHAHAHA, IMMA GONNA WIN" ?


(I'm not sorry)

 

[erico9001]

People assume it's better for turn-out if customs are banned. However, I'm sure I'm not alone in finding it's discouraging to NOT be able to play with my own special moves. I placed a lot of time into discovering how these things work. Hypothesizing... testing... arguing... constructing. And I can't use any of my work. My locals decide it's best to have customs off because they want to be consistent with everybody else who is doing that. That is the reason. I'm still doing well there, but I know I'm being a bit handicapped from it. I just play better with my special moves. Since the custom special moves round out my character in general with match-ups, without them, my arbitrary location on the bracket matters a lot more. For example, without dash vision (which I couldn't use anyways due to evo builds only), I'm probably not winning against the two ROBs who attend, even though I beat people seeded much higher than them.

 

[Raijinken]

People assume it's better for turn-out if customs are banned. However, I'm sure I'm not alone in finding it's discouraging to NOT be able to play with my own special moves. I placed a lot of time into discovering how these things work. Hypothesizing... testing... arguing... constructing. And I can't use any of my work. My locals decide it's best to have customs off because they want to be consistent with everybody else who is doing that. That is the reason. I'm still doing well there, but I know I'm being a bit handicapped from it. I just play better with my special moves. Since the custom special moves round out my character in general with match-ups, without them, my arbitrary location on the bracket matters a lot more. For example, without dash vision (which I couldn't use anyways due to evo builds only), I'm probably not winning against the two ROBs who attend, even though I beat people seeded much higher than them.

Shulk's are definitely in need of some revision. Dash Vision is in the set list, but only if you want Advancing Air Slash to go with it.

 

[erico9001]

Shulk's are definitely in need of some revision. Dash Vision is in the set list, but only if you want Advancing Air Slash to go with it.

Well Advancing Air Slash is good to have with dash vision. Just I usually use either Decisive Arts or Hyper arts.

 

[Raijinken]

Well Advancing Air Slash is good to have with dash vision. Just I usually use either Decisive Arts or Hyper arts.

Slot 8 is 3122, so I think you're set there.

 

[erico9001]

Slot 8 is 3122, so I think you're set there.

huh? Oh weird. I guess that left my memory in the last few weeks of not using customs! I do use decisive arts much more than hyper arts though, as they seem to work generally better. Hyper arts are more of a crowd pleaser though, and do better in MU's where I need to change my arts to specific situations. This sort of thing isn't concrete though. I'm not sure what MU's I need to do that.

 

[Splash Damage]

Whether or not somebody can or can't win a hard matchup is likely a lot more deep than just a counter. You don't need customs to overcome hard matchups(though they can certainly help), and technically speaking, the foe likely gets good customs as well, so rather than the numbers tipping, both characters get better and it stays the same if not a little bit in the losing characters' favor.

 

[Raijinken]

Whether or not somebody can or can't win a hard matchup is likely a lot more deep than just a counter. You don't need customs to overcome hard matchups(though they can certainly help), and technically speaking, the foe likely gets good customs as well, so rather than the numbers tipping, both characters get better and it stays the same if not a little bit in the losing characters' favor.

I can't think of a matchup that reverses its favor based on the characters' particular selection of specials, but the ability to move a matchup closer to even, or keep it in parity despite the opponent's ability to move it further in their favor, is significant and important when choosing a moveset to bring to a match. Especially given recent changes, this is a big reason why existing sets and unrepresented options need further exploration.

 

[erico9001]

Whether or not somebody can or can't win a hard matchup is likely a lot more deep than just a counter. You don't need customs to overcome hard matchups(though they can certainly help), and technically speaking, the foe likely gets good customs as well, so rather than the numbers tipping, both characters get better and it stays the same if not a little bit in the losing characters' favor.

My issue vs ROB is the top. Shulk has no projectile. I can use dash vision on landing on this top, to send a quick, un-shieldable attack at ROB. I think it helps a lot. ROB is used to being able to use his top whenever he wants without any downsides. Now there is a risk.

Dash Vision also helps a lot vs Mega Man. It out-ranges his pellets. This gives the Mega Man pressure, and gives him some actual reason to not just spam the projectile. Also, worth noting: Decisive Monado Speed is scary for Mega Man.

As for the opponents having custom moves that can help them out as well, the reason that can't be true is something I think you've actually said yourself. Most people don't use custom moves even when they are legal. I do gain ground in the MU because of this reason. I've even seen a Palutena not use customs at a custom tourney. Now, why do people not play with custom moves even when legal? At first, I saw this as something like rebellion, but I no longer think so. I think what really is going on is the people just do not feel the need to customize their special moves. They are alright with the ones they are using. However, it does not mean they think others should be prevented from customizing.

 

[Raijinken]

My issue vs ROB is the top. Shulk has no projectile. I can use dash vision on landing on this top, to send a quick, un-shieldable attack at ROB. I think it helps a lot. ROB is used to being able to use his top whenever he wants without any downsides. Now there is a risk.

Dash Vision also helps a lot vs Mega Man. It out-ranges his pellets. This gives the Mega Man pressure, and gives him some actual reason to not just spam the projectile. Also, worth noting: Decisive Monado Speed is scary for Mega Man.

As for the opponents having custom moves that can help them out as well, the reason that can't be true is something I think you've actually said yourself. Most people don't use custom moves even when they are legal. I do gain ground in the MU because of this reason. I've even seen a Palutena not use customs at a custom tourney. Now, why do people not play with custom moves even when legal? At first, I saw this as something like rebellion, but I no longer think so. I think what really is going on is the people just do not feel the need to customize their special moves. They are alright with the ones they are using. However, it does not mean they think others should be prevented from customizing.

Palutena also plays very differently in customs and not. While most consider Superlightweight to be better than default, the style differences are drastic, and it's hard to blame someone for not running something they're unfamiliar with.

But like @ ぱみゅ said above, this isn't the place to discuss legality. This is the place to discuss the moves themselves, and the project.

I know I saw a lot of analysis favoring Dash Vision, but I can't remember seeing anyone list a reason to use default Vision. It's one of the relatively few default specials not present in any custom set currently.

 

[Ansou]

First of all, if anyone wants to reply to this post regarding the legality or brokenness of custom moves, please quote it in this thread instead. This will be the only post I make in this thread about why custom moves should be legal and I want to continue the discussion in the other thread.

For those curious about CaptAwesum without customs, he took 3rd at our New England regional which featured almost all of our PR. He used Villager and WFT, matches here:

https://youtu.be/dBVq3vWcItY
https://youtu.be/W7yKUPN66dg
https://youtu.be/96iivt5LvZA
https://youtu.be/KlLpAZG8XKg
https://youtu.be/Qo4gItUf-es

So... He's pretty much using the same playstyle. Is it suddenly more fun to play against when he doesn't have customs? Planking is a pretty bad strategy regardless of customs, so whether it's better or not with customs shouldn't matter too much.

So what you're saying is that the only way to reliably, quickly, and efficiently get all the customs on your 3DS is to buy something to hack the customs on with, meaning that no matter what method you want to use, there is a paywall behind it. And that the one 3DS that has done that must be there at the event every week for any new player to bring a setup and have it be legal, meaning that if they forgot the 3DS at home, got sick, or any number of other occurrences, there will be less legal setups and a less efficient bracket. And that's not even beginning to address the other issues there are that I brought up, and I'm pretty sure that a 3-hour set making binge is far and away from "instantaneous". That and the aforementioned terminology concerns, ridiculous situation with Miis, and overall decreasing player interest leading to smaller attendance&pool size, all so three randoms can still only go 2-2 but with a faster fireball instead of a bouncing one. Which is yet another thing that nobody has made a solid defense for and most have gone out of their way to prove:Absolutely nobody at a high level consistently uses them or supports them. We're doing all this, spending hundreds of hours labbing and arguing over what 10 limited sets to use for all 52 characters-or rather about 48 as the DLC characters get none, another issue-and rushing to get them to work logistically, all for what? Customs have brought almost nothing to the table when it comes down to top level play. The best example I've seen so far is Johnnumbers, and that's just one person. I can't see how the overall use of customs can defend all the work that they need.

As there is a free way to automatically unlock all customs on the 3DS (if I understood the moveset editor correctly), having someone or even multiple people on spot that has a 3DS with all customs unlocked really shouldn't be an issue anymore. If there are multiple people with 3DSes, the transferring process should go very quickly. As for not many people using custom moves... I think that is really because the customs meta has not evolved enough and people don't really know much about customs. Some other people may just choose to not use customs because they think that they will be banned anyway, so they didn't want to bother learning them. There was another Kirby player in my area that were playing defaults. When I asked him why he didn't use any custom moves his response was pretty much "I'm not really good enough at the game yet to start using customs." I convinced him to actually try some custom moves out and now he seems to really like using them.

Here's the thing, though. Even though there are characters that are not utterly shut down by the move, the fact that can completely shut down certain characters at all still a problem. Whether it's five characters or the entire cast, the fact that a single move can completely shut down any character is a problem when trying to create a balanced game or metagame. The same issue is present when it comes to moves that can be utter garbage, whether it's against certain characters or the entire cast. Even with customs tournaments, that specific move needs to be dealt with, because, simply put, matches based on gimmicky matchups (Situations where Option X completely dominates characters A, B, C, and D, but is useless against characters E, F, G, and H) are boring and one-sided.

Options that dominate one part of the cast but are garbage against the rest are just as bad as options that dominate the whole cast and those that are garbage against the whole cast. The only real difference is that the match isn't decided by the player who chooses it, it's decided by their opponent. Like I said before, in a game like MvC or Skullgirls, where your opponent can counter a bad matchup by switching to one of your backup characters mid-match, or like League of Legends where they have a teammate to cover their weaknesses, the counterpick approach to balance would be fine. Hell, even though you bring up the fact that it removes one of your kill options, this doesn't balance out the fact that it balances out some characters. Rather, it worsens the fact that it's useless against others. Like, let's just break down the three main issues.

1. It utterly dominates certain characters - Simple as that. It results in matches that are one-sided in favor of the player who uses it.
2. It is utterly garbage against certain other characters - The flip side of issue 1. If your opponent decides to whip out a character that's mostly unaffected by the tripping tree, it's no longer effective. If it still had its killing potential (which would make just issue 1 even worse), you'd have something to fall back on, but...
3. It loses its kill potential - It removes one of Villager's kill options, meaning that if someone does bring out a character that can easily work around the Tripping Tree, then you have fewer options to fall back on.

If the whole point of CMP is to eliminate both broken and garbage special moves by providing a tournament ruleset that bans said moves, then using moves that are broken in certain matchups but garbage in others is missing the point. If an option is broken in certain matchups but garbage in others, that doesn't mean that, for balance purposes, you should consider it neither. Rather, it means that, when it comes to creating a level playing field, you have to consider it both broken and garbage.

While my design experience is mainly with Tabletop RPGs, certain design principles are universal, and one thing that I've learned is that a single character doesn't have to invalidate the rest of the roster to be overpowered. If a single move in their arsenal is capable of completely shutting down or overpowering even one other character, then it's broken, and needs to be fixed.

If you're talking about Counter Timber, could you please specify which characters get "completely shut down" by it and why?

Those are all very good points (Except maybe the bit about the default state potentially being complete domination, because most characters have viable options against Sheik in the hands of a competent player, but then again, the Smash series as a whole has had a history of poor design choices), but I'm not talking about custom moves in general being banned (And I actually practiced a bit with Impact Orbitars back when I mained Pit and Dark Pit), I'm talking about Timber Counter being removed from the list of legal custom moves, unless it gets a nerf that causes the sapling to automatically wither when someone trips over it or something, because with the current state of things, its hitbox is large enough for a character to trip three times in a row before escaping it. As-is, it provides a very safe, easy, and honestly very cheap way to win at tournaments, a scenario where money is often on the line. In other words, it's easy money. Likewise, Pikachu has custom options that can produce infinite combos.

However, on the flip side, customs do give characters like Charizard and Palutena, who would otherwise be forgettable outside of teams, a better chance in a 1v1 environment. But, unfortunately, there's a lot of effort that would go into ensuring that some characters, such as Villager or Pikachu, don't get cheap, easy-win strategies.

The Villager stalling strategy is really not very good. Definitely not an easy-win strategy against players that know how to play against it. Also, ESAM got punished quite a lot at EVO because he tried to hard with fishing for HSB kills.

I, personally, support the banning of specific specials (note: not customs, all specials are subject) if they are decidedly over-centralizing or broken. In Villager's case in particular, my own feelings are that Counter Timber itself isn't the issue, only when it's paired with Extreme Balloon Trip to give him planking that is very hard for many characters to contest, if possible at all. I'm personally more inclined to blame EBT for the degeneracy of that setup, but that's just my opinion, I never see Villager planking with default balloons, regardless of the sapling.

Every character has tools to contest Extreme Balloon Trip. Of course some characters have better tools than others though.

I think the mindset of some of my local players is along the lines of "we don't have to play with these difficult, spammable moves (as opposed to having to use defaults), so let's don't." To be fair, they are really spammable at really low levels of play, and pretty easy to use relative to pikachu bair, using Rosalina as a whole, and yes even bananas. Kong Cyclone is super easy to auto cancel for players of any skill level. Trip sapling you just put it there and you're done. Exploding balloons don't require any special spacing or thought if your opponents aren't good enough to spike you or don't have the confidence to go off stage at all. At these levels you just have to learn how to use 1, 2 moves and you're good to go. To them it's For Glory all over again. And they have the ability to remove what they perceive to be the cause of their frustration.

Scrubby? Yeah. Inconsistent? Yes, too. But will my scene attract/keep more players without customs? How many more? What kind of players do leave if we keep customs legal? I don't know, but these are important questions I have to ask, regardless of how scrubby and inconsistent banning customs might be. This is an extreme example, but I'd rather have 100 man custom-less tournaments than 50 man custom tournaments.

I really don't think that there will be a large difference, if any. There might even be more people there if customs are on, but it's hard to tell. Majority votes may of course be necessary when deciding a ruleset, but logic and reason should always come first.

People assume it's better for turn-out if customs are banned. However, I'm sure I'm not alone in finding it's discouraging to NOT be able to play with my own special moves. I placed a lot of time into discovering how these things work. Hypothesizing... testing... arguing... constructing. And I can't use any of my work. My locals decide it's best to have customs off because they want to be consistent with everybody else who is doing that. That is the reason. I'm still doing well there, but I know I'm being a bit handicapped from it. I just play better with my special moves. Since the custom special moves round out my character in general with match-ups, without them, my arbitrary location on the bracket matters a lot more. For example, without dash vision (which I couldn't use anyways due to evo builds only), I'm probably not winning against the two ROBs who attend, even though I beat people seeded much higher than them.

For me it's more like I'm just not able to play my main if customs are disabled. I main Kirby 3232, which is not available in customs off, so then I'll just have to play my secondary (which is Sheik 1111) instead. However, I really don't enjoy playing Sheik 1111 as much as I like playing Kirby 3232 as I've put so much effort into learning to play with my main...

Essentially yes, thats exactly what I'm saying. But we don't have to spend hundreds of collective hours to get the bottom half of the tierlist to even begin working on the systems. They're there, full and completed, from the very start. No 56 page smash boards threads, no 4-hour long import binge or 3-hour long set-making binge.

Let me make this clear:I don't think they should be banned for this, that's not the way I'm looking at it. I just think they're not worth all the time they take to even be on the systems, let alone be labbed for/against by the players, have the meta develop through the weekly events, have all the discussion about a new season and updates for them, and on and on and on. Honestly, I just don't see how the work is worth the payout.

The time it takes to tranfer sets to the Wii Us is not that bad. Labbing and discussing movesets it completely up to each individual. No one is forcing you to spend more time on it than you want to.

Its alright. Sorry for getting too agitated about it.
Exactly my point. what if it wasn't silly to consider banning them? A thing is only considered silly when it goes against the norm. I am sorry but I don't believe in good pure intentions. If it was a war that you were capable of fighting and winning you might as well have. Everyone can be like "I don't like so and so but I wouldn't want it banned!" and needless to say I am not about to swallow that. Its either 1- You don't hate this thing enough to make a move against it 2- You do hate it enough but its just that its viewed as the norm and you won't be winning **** over the average mainstream masses who stand against you any time soon.

I am not with or against complexity in general. In DOTA and LoL I think its good. It is the core of the game after all. The depth is there. Items and champions aren't simply a stronger or more defensive versions of each other. Also, they are always well maintained and patched regularly to make sure everything is balanced. In Sm4sh, customs are ***. they are ugly, made in a rush and some of them are just outright stupid. That's the first side of the coin, the other one is that I don't see Sm4sh being that type of game. When I first heard of customs the first time I had no fear of them being broken or whatever, I just really didn't want them to be used for counterpicking and stuff. I just don't think they are going to add anything of real value and I see no way that they will be able to make the game interesting. I think in Smash, the more straightforward things are, the better they would be.
That's good and all but its still a situation where cons outweigh the pros by a mile, at least for me.

Yes, bias is a thing, but it should never be an argument. Despite bias, we should try to go by logical arguments when deciding rules.

I kinda feel the need to play devil's advocate here...

I feel like a few of you aren't considering the fact that a number of players just flat-out don't like customs. Yes, there are pros and cons to a customs meta, and yes, there are legitimate reasons as to why they are interesting to have on, but if a player has tried customs significantly and decided that they don't like them and don't want to see them in tournaments then there really isn't anything to be done. People love to make No True Scotsmen arguments when it comes to how much time we have to have customs on in tournament to "validate" experimenting with them.

When Diddy Kong was the king of S4, people were super in favor of customs. Nearly everyone was at least willing to give them a shot. As time went on though, imbalances were found, and more and more top players started speaking out against them.

Then when the Diddy nerf came, a lot of people lost their reason to support customs, since the game got "de-centralized" from Diddy. (I still think the reaction to Diddy was hasty and over-reactive, he was not nearly as bad as people made him out to be, and the game was VERY new at the time, but that's another topic.) Despite this, however, numerous people said "let's give it more time, see how things settle" since customs had been confirmed for EVO at this point.

In the weeks leading up to EVO, public opinion pulled almost a complete 180, with disapproval of customs becoming the norm. As more and more tournament series were adopting customs in order to prep for EVO, many players who had only ever kinda heard of customs got thrust into them head-first, and had to learn to adapt, and quickly. This is when several glitches, exploits, and degenerate strategies involving customs came to light. Custom moves were being tested and used on a national scale, and it resulted in significant negativity towards them.

During EVO, a few custom related upsets did happen (like CaptAwesum) but the top players in the world largely ignored customs in bracket matches. I'm sure each had their own reason for neglecting customs, but the fact remains that customs were simply not used by a not insignificant number of players.

And now, post-EVO, we find ourselves in a situation where local events are dropping customs left and right, because A) no other major has announced the use of customs, and B) after having used customs for months and seeing how they affect the meta at all levels, players simply don't want them anymore.

It seems to me like we as a community gave customs a fair shot, and the consensus is that the majority of players don't want them. It sucks for those of us that like customs, but we can't exactly force them on the community if it doesn't want them. It also is unreasonable to just keep saying "let's keep using them for the next major, and see how things work out!". It isn't fair to people who have tried and do not like customs to continue to force them to play a game they don't want to play.

I'm the TO for the biggest Smash 4 tournament series in MA, and when we announced that we were dropping customs after EVO it was met with the cheers of 60+ players. I have been told by numerous people that they would simply stop playing smash 4 if customs became the standard.

Also @ Raijinken and other people making the comparison. Smash 4 is not DOTA. I have seen numerous people draw the comparison between custom moves and the flexibility of items in MOBAs like DOTA and LOL. I get the parallel, but there are many players who DON'T play those games BECAUSE they are too complex competitively. Even among fighting games Smash is pretty simple control and mechanic-wise, and many players enjoy it because of it's simplicity. Not all players find value in making the game arbitrarily more complex.

I really don't agree that we as a community gave customs a fair shot. Only some regions did it. Also, if not many players were using them, they were barely "giving them a shot". If we actually decided that customs should be the standard, I am very convinced that more players would start using them. If people don't like complexity, then perhaps they shouldn't play a game that obviously has it. We don't add customization to the game. It has always been there.

It isn't like we've been using customs for years and now some people want to turn them off.

We haven't been using Ryu for long either, but he is allowed regadless.

I just don't want something like customs to be a part of Smash. I want the game to be as straightforward as possible. And guess whats the least straightforward aspect that could be added to Smash? (Disregarding equipments but those are utter BS) so that's that. I don't think customs can add any kind real depth to the game. Not while most of them are ****ty versions of the original move made faster or whatever.

It's really not up to anyone here to decide what should be a part of the game. Customization is a part of the game whether you like it or not. It is up to us, though, to decide if custom moves are broken enough to be banned.

The thing about banning "problematic moves" is that the closest ANY of them have come to being provably degenerate is Extreme Balloon Trip since no Villager plays any other way if it's on - it actually centralizes his strategy to consist of extremely little other than planking.

Please don't say that. I use Extreme Balloon Trip because I like it for recovery. Planking is not the only reason to use that move. You're kind of implying that the best strategy with Extreme Balloon Trip is planking which is definitely not true.

Keep in mind, I do not believe "Customs" fall under a category of a "ban".
My interpretation of Playing to Win has the game being played at a competitive level at its basic settings and any change in rules requires reason to have the change take precedence.
In this case Custom Fighters being turned "On" is a change in rules for the competitive meta and we need a reason to make this change. If there is no competitive merit to changing that setting then we would not use it - it is clearly not a ban.
The irony is that those who wish to use Customs are also advocates of banning certain custom moves and/or combinations as well as other bans.

It is true that we change something with the game when we set customs to on, just like we change something with the game when we buy a DLC character. However, customization is only adding content, not setting the game to a different mode (see stock vs. time). Just like when we're adding content by buying DLC characters. Actually, we're not even adding content (see custom stages), we're just allowing the content to be used. There is not even a debate about if we should allow unlockable characters or Dreamland 64 in competitive play, they get allowed by default because we are used to the type of content that they bring. Actually, we're used to special moves as well, but for some reason we treat custom moves differently. The thing is that there is a reason why we allow DLC characters. It's because they are simply a part of the game that needs to be explored, but that exact same reason can be applied to customization. I respect your argument more than probably any other argument, but there is not a big difference between allowing more characters to be used and allowing more special moves to be used.

Also, the big button on the character select screen pretty much implies that switching customization to on is crucial once a player has made some movesets. Although, this last paragraph is obviously very subjective and should be taken with a big grain of salt.

There are a number of legit reasons to be anti customs, but the few I hear most are:

1. "Fighting against campy or degenerate strategies isn't fun/is annoying". Referring to things like campy custom villager, windy kong, runaway custom sonic, and others. Yes, I and they are aware that these strategies are beatable but that isn't the issue. The problem they bring up is that it isn't interesting to play against, and it makes them feel like training doesn't matter. Many of these strategies are beaten in very simple, predictable ways, and players don't have fun dealing with them even when they win. What it comes down to is that most of our players came to the decision that vanilla is just more fun to play. The cool customs that really change up the character (Ganondorf, Charizard, Palutena, etc.) aren't worth it if they also have to deal with campy villagers and other annoying strategies.

It sounds here that Villagers, Wind Kongs and Sonics will start dominating the meta if customs are allowed. They will still just be a very small portion of the cast. Fighting against Villager or Sonic is boring regardless of if customs are turned on or off. There will still be many other characters in the game, and some of them become much more aggressive. It's really not fair implying that the customs meta game is only about D-Smashing Villagers that are hanging on the ledge. It's so much more than that.