Important Official Custom Moveset Project

[ぱみゅ]

Only one custom is a bad rule, is arbitrary, far from optimal, and the way it helps few characters might probably hurt the meta more than it would help.

Still, I'd take one custom over none if that proves to put them under a more positive light.

 

[Masonomace]

Having to only choose one Custom Special variant? Well that's quite a bummer. In my case for Shulk, that's either going to be Advancing Air Slash (Up-B 2), or Dash Vision. .(Down-B 2). I'm not in support of it unless that was the only saving grace that the majority would accept, but the majority of Shulk players would probably roll with Power Vision (Down-B 3) which is gross.

 

[Blankshore]

So, I'm super new to the boards. I'm a customs fan. But, of course, I rarely get to play with them since For Glory is limited to default. But whenever I'm with friends, we play with them on.

Am I correct that the main reason they're not allowed in tournaments is "It's too hard to learn all the matchups?" To me, that's BS. Sure, it would be incredibly difficult to know every single matchup, but...isn't that part of the fun of Smash? Learning new things? New techniques? Developing one's individual playstyle? It seems insane to me that there's this whole new way of playing the game, but it's rejected by the community at large because it's A) Different, B) Makes set-ups difficult, C) causes "too many matchups" to learn. But once again, I'm new, so maybe I'm super misinformed.

Like, personally, I'm a Falco main. Most of his customs are not super appealing to me, but his sped-up laser and his down-B 2 make him a very different character. That Down-B #2 can kill at the top of the screen earlier than his Uair can. I would be much more inclined to play in a tournament if I could use the character I wanted and play him the way I'm comfortable.

 

[Ansou]

Am I correct that the main reason they're not allowed in tournaments is "It's too hard to learn all the matchups?" To me, that's BS. Sure, it would be incredibly difficult to know every single matchup, but...isn't that part of the fun of Smash? Learning new things? New techniques? Developing one's individual playstyle? It seems insane to me that there's this whole new way of playing the game, but it's rejected by the community at large because it's A) Different, B) Makes set-ups difficult, C) causes "too many matchups" to learn. But once again, I'm new, so maybe I'm super misinformed.

Yeah, people not wanting to learn new things is one of the major reasons why customs are widely banned. Another reason is that people think that unlocking them takes too much effort.

 

[ぱみゅ]

To me, setups are far more difficult with DLCs than with Customs.
Last month we had a foreign TO making an expo tournament here, and he asked for Wii Us and TVs to use, but he rejected any Wii U without every DLC.
The tournament ran with 3 Wii Us and no room for friendlies.

But wait, this is not the thread for legality discussion. Please direct any concern on the matter here: http://smashboards.com/threads/what-are-your-opinions-on-customs-post-evo-2015.410671/
Thank you

 

[W.A.C.]

In terms of the future of this project, maybe it would be worth having a massive revival once the final patch comes out with Bayonetta? Though speaking of DLC characters, I can't help but feel DLC characters not having custom moves played a huge role in killing the future of custom moves. A lot of people who main or will main a DLC character will not want their character to be at a massive disadvantage, which will severely hold this project back. Also, I don't expect my region to EVER consider bringing back customs unless Hammer Spindash was either nerfed or banned. The region would not stfu about that custom move until customs died. So once the final patch is out, you guys might want to consider banning some of the most controversial customs that were never addressed in a patch. Fortunately, the only super controversial custom moves that never got nerfed were kong cyclone, hammer spindash, and heavy skullbash. Really hoping those moves get nerfed in the future because their reputation hurt this project badly. All the other super controversial customs were hard nerfed.

 

[Dinoman96]

All the other super controversial customs were hard nerfed.

Timber Counter?

 

[W.A.C.]

Timber Counter?

Forgot about that one, though honestly I think that move is about equal to Villager's standard down special. I only felt it was an enormous problem because of pre-patch exploding balloons.

 

[Masonomace]

So something interesting that came to a surprise to me was when I was reading up on a facebook group I'm in that's hosting local weeklies. I suggested an idea for allowing customs & it's getting considered:

-With your respective character(s), you create just one set to use for the entire bracket.
-With using a set up to 10 letters, you'd create a set showing the XXXX specials including your tag if you wanted.

So if I played either just one or a plethora of characters, I'd create a set & only one set with all of those characters in mind. If I decided to play Shulk, I'd create a set saying Mace2122. If I played Yoshi, I'd create a set saying Mace3322. If I played Lucario, I'd create a set saying Mace3212. If there were other players that played the same characters I made, they'd still make their own set to use, unless we both would use the same set.

This is fine & dandy for a local, but for a national / regional, it wouldn't be as simple.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Been looking at WFT's jumbo hoops. WFT suffers no hitlag while the target does, and the hoops have a rehit rate of 20 frames. This comes together for an interesting move when it comes to blocking it. With 8 shieldlag and 5 shieldstun, the hoops are -7 on block. And it takes seven frames to put down shield. Putting down your shield will result in getting caught in the next hit. Any character with a frame 6 shieldgrab (no later than this) could get her in between hits, but only if the defender wastes not a single frame in buffering the grab. Other, quicker OoS options also would work, like Mario's Up B. Or Sheik's short hop Nair to trade, but OoS options are only the aggressively dangeroes solution, at best. There's also the issue of her ascending, which allows her to shield poke exposed parts of the defender's body, and escaping punishment when the move is about to finish.

So, I feel the only out of shield option that every character can use after blocking jumbo hoops is a dodge roll. They make you invulnerable on frame 4, giving you a 3 frame leniency to time the roll after getting hit. WFT will be able to chase you, but as long as you don't try to dodge through her, but only away, you should be safe at least briefly.

Once the move is finished, she suffers 46 special landing lag - that's 16 more than normal hoops. Naturally she'd want to move to the nearest ledge to avoid this punish opportunity, so the counterplay will be centered on "what can my character do to get an attack on that ledge, before she grabs it?" Maybe ledge trumping is the best you can hope for. Or covering her ledge options might be what your guy is best at.

 

[PHP]

Only one custom is a bad rule, is arbitrary, far from optimal, and the way it helps few characters might probably hurt the meta more than it would help.

Still, I'd take one custom over none if that proves to put them under a more positive light.

Is there a custom move banned list? (Sorry I'm new to this thread) I really don't see why they're banned because most customs have drawbacks that balance them, but there are a small handful of moves that are just jank (enter Pikachu heavy skull bash, Sheik penetrating needles, etc.)

 

[ぱみゅ]

There is not a single ban-worthy custom move.
Regardless of how powerful, pivotal, game-changing, or annoying they are, none of them is straight up broken to deserve a ban.

 

[PHP]

There is not a single ban-worthy custom move.
Regardless of how powerful, pivotal, game-changing, or annoying they are, none of them is straight up broken to deserve a ban.

Ya sure? Last time I checked heavy skull bash kills Browser center FD at 50% but whatever.

What's the current status on legal customs post/ pre EVO? Or are people not talking about them?

 

[Nintendrone]

Before EVO, some tournaments switched to customs on to prepare for it. EVO showed that customs don't really impact results very much (not a bad thing), although some cried foul over the usual suspects of Kong Cyclone, Timber Counter + Explosive Balloon Trip, and Hammer Spin Dash like always. After EVO, a number of regions phased customs out because they were reluctant about customs in the first place and there were no upcoming majors with customs. Major tournaments felt that there wasn't enough support pushing for customs in order to justify the hassle of setups, so they dropped them too.

The general opinion given by the scene about customs in practice is pretty much "Whatever, but it's not worth the hassle of setup", and not particularly about OP moves. The unlocking and setup process of customs killed them, not OP moves.

Also, I don't find Heavy Skull Bash banworthy but rather polarizing, just like many default moves and characters.

 

[PHP]

Ah okay, thanks for clarifying Nintendrone that makes since. I really don't find customs that hard to grind for. Trophy rush + classic mode + stadium mode makes it pretty easy imo. The only problem would be time in your day but it's much easier if you grind with a friend (which if you're supplying set ups then you probably have 1 or 2) and spread the work. It's probably just people being lazy about it (but people do have work and school). If tournaments support customs this would probably be less of a hassle.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Dear PHP, this thread is not to discuss Customs' Legality, we here only to talk about the movesets project.
Ask and discuss about single moves is fine as they could be excluded as a whole from every set, but talking about supporting or not customs is not for this one thread, but this other one instead: http://smashboards.com/threads/what-are-your-opinions-on-customs-post-evo-2015.410671/

 

[Raijinken]

Are any character boards still discussing their character's customs? I don't frequent any of the character boards, but if there are any that have been actively discussing the matter, I'd see no harm in going ahead and adopting their proposed changes to their character.

 

[W.A.C.]

Once the final balance patch hits, I really hope we get a major revival with this project. This project is really out of date but the next balance patch could render a newly revived customs project out of date again at a time when people lack interest in customs. :/ There's a lot of pessimism toward custom moves (especially from top players), but if we were to massively revive this project, perhaps customs might be able to have a second chance? I doubt it, but it's worth a shot. I will say this though. Having a dual meta ****ing sucks. I could pick up a character like tiny Mii Gunner, train hard with that character, and he becomes completely irrelevant in the other meta. The dual meta aspect of having customs legal was by far the worst part of legalized custom moves. For players who invest a lot of time into a character in the custom meta that is straight up nonviable in default meta (like Palutena), it's going to be really hard for some people to want to invest a lot of time into customs again.

 

[Raijinken]

Once the final balance patch hits, I really hope we get a major revival with this project. This project is really out of date but the next balance patch could render a newly revived customs project out of date again at a time when people lack interest in customs. :/ There's a lot of pessimism toward custom moves (especially from top players), but if we were to massively revive this project, perhaps customs might be able to have a second chance? I doubt it, but it's worth a shot. I will say this though. Having a dual meta ****ing sucks. I could pick up a character like tiny Mii Gunner, train hard with that character, and he becomes completely irrelevant in the other meta. The dual meta aspect of having customs legal was by far the worst part of legalized custom moves. For players who invest a lot of time into a character in the custom meta that is straight up nonviable in default meta (like Palutena), it's going to be really hard for some people to want to invest a lot of time into customs again.

Alas, when the opposition is literally "most of the top players of this game will outright quit supporting major tournaments if you so much as think of legalizing customs", we hardly have a choice aside from a dual meta.

And of course, while all the default players can still play fine in customs if they aren't scrubby whiners, they're more than content to screw over OUR practice. After all, what are WE compared to THEY?

 

[Nu~]

There goes our chance

 

[Garo]

There goes our chance

Meaning? I searched for a few minutes, but didn't find any confirmation of the ruleset for Smash 4 at EVO 2016. Have they said they'd go customs off?

 

[Nu~]

Meaning? I searched for a few minutes, but didn't find any confirmation of the ruleset for Smash 4 at EVO 2016. Have they said they'd go customs off?

There's gonna be a vote for it. But they are using representatives and D1 is going to be one.

He's anti customs...

 

[Dinoman96]

Ironic considering he plays Palutena.

In addition, it's been stated that Mii specials are only going to be allowed if all customs are allowed, which obviously isn't going to happen. So yeah, RIP Mii Fighters.

 

[Garo]

Oh, that sucks. Where'd they announce this by the way, and do we know any of the other reps yet?

 

[Dinoman96]

Oh, that sucks. Where'd they announce this by the way, and do we know any of the other reps yet?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Nu~]

Hopefully we get enough Mii supporters.

I don't think everyone is a vinnie

 

[PHP]

I hope custom moves will be legal at EVO, it'll definitely help increase Palutena's popularity in the smash community as well as customs and miis

 

[Yikarur]

Custom's won't be legal.
But Mii' are treated differently by the game and they should not be excluded.

 

[GS3K]

Hopefully we get enough Mii supporters.

I don't think everyone is a vinnie

Normally I'd agree with this, but for the most part I'm a bit skeptical because the miis are attached to customs and since it looks like most of the community-known folks are against customs, I'm willing to bet they'll be against miis being legalized if it means customs would return.

 

[Yikarur]

Mii's shouldn't be attached to customs though. Someone have to tell that wizard guy that they are not treated the same in-game and we should catter to that.

 

[epicnights]

Did they ever say how this voting process was to occur? is it a public vote or with representatives?

 

[Raijinken]

Mii's shouldn't be attached to customs though. Someone have to tell that wizard guy that they are not treated the same in-game and we should catter to that.

You know that, and we know that, but not everyone knows that, and unfortunately a lot of the bigger parties in the scene either don't know that, or plug their ears and go "la la la" when someone mentions it.

 

[NegaNixx]

It's for the better that customs aren't at EVO we haven't been working on the project at all since the last one, and we aren't exactly prepared to scramble like we were last year. There's also a lot more resistance from people who haven't followed customs and still point to Villager and Cyclone as points against it. If we were working the whole time it could have been possible but life came up for AA and it sort of fell to the wayside.

Miis however are different from a logistics standpoint and should be treated as such.

 

[PHP]

It's for the better that customs aren't at EVO we haven't been working on the project at all since the last one, and we aren't exactly prepared to scramble like we were last year. There's also a lot more resistance from people who haven't followed customs and still point to Villager and Cyclone as points against it. If we were working the whole time it could have been possible but life came up for AA and it sort of fell to the wayside.

Miis however are different from a logistics standpoint and should be treated as such.

(Obvious bias incoming) isn't Palutena also different like miis? They're both custom characters they (and only they) should have access to customs because they're "the custom characters". But even if customs are banned that's not a reason to ban miis all together, just let them use the 1111 set.

 

[NegaNixx]

Palutena is not the same. Palutena is a standard character and the face of custom moves for this game, she serves as an example for the moves usage. A Mii has alternate specials in both custom on and custom off. Miis are Miis, characters meant to be personalized, Palutena just has them available as an example.

 

[PHP]

If Palutena was different her custom specials would be unlockable like other characters. She's clearly ment to be played with customs (even her trophy says she's a customisable character) if miis were the only ones they would be the only ones with unlocked moves. Her moves are also very diverse compared to the rest of the cast.

 

[LancerStaff]

If Palutena was different her custom specials would be unlockable like other characters. She's clearly ment to be played with customs (even her trophy says she's a customisable character) if miis were the only ones they would be the only ones with unlocked moves. Her moves are also very diverse compared to the rest of the cast.

People aren't going to go for Palutena's customs until you can use her customs while they're turned off. Even then, Miis barely get them. Let's take it one step at a time...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Disclaimer: the following post isn't directed at any one person. Except for the first line, I suppose.

I seriously doubt the hot issue why people would be against Palutena customs is because they have to flip a switch in Smash mode.

No, it has to do with preparations. Setting up the sets beforehand, unlocking customs on the 3DS, then making the sets (which takes hours to go through the whole roster with a list in front of you) porting those sets to wii u systems (potentially as long as an hour per wii U, never had to use a 3DS for this myself), double checking each set is properly named and has the correct moves, make those corrections. This is a lot of prep work for a tournament of this size, and that's only the work done in the weeks before. In the months before July, there would have to be a re-evaluation of all characters to make new sets. Some characters have to make precious use of their maximum of 10 sets, while others just need two or three because their move pool is awful. No matter which character, this research and discussion takes a lot of time and is honestly not easy. Because our experience with customs in the first place is so limited, and everybody wants to take maximum advantage of this opportunity. And Smashboards does not, nor would it ever accurately represent the whole of the Smash community.

And Miis are naturally the biggest nightmare. There's infinite variations between height, width, and moves, and no cap on the amount of sets. So of course the mii players want to make up to 50 to cover every possible option, which is a lot of jumping back and forth between the game and Mii Maker. All that work for the three or so Swordfighters or Brawlers who are attending.

Please don't force yourself to misunderstand why people don't like the sound of customs. There's a lot of other, less objective issues, but they mostly boil down to civil unrest with the players. Doing research on 58 character Matchups is already taxing to the aspiring player, but all of those (minus DLC), plus their up to 10 variations? And you have to memorize moves by number? You could probably tell me what a Villager or Rosalina custom set is based on its number, but what about Kirby? Falco? Robin? And as a followup question - can the average player do that too? And don't say it's their job, because there's no fast and easy way to discern why one character's player base chose one move over another, unless it's something overwhelmingly better than the default.

So, when they group the inclusion of miis with the inclusion of customs, it makes perfect sense, since they both require this much effort and difficulty, and only having Miis and Palutena use customs would be totally exclusionary and unfair. Whatever opinion you or I have regarding customs is meaningless in the face of the burden it represents on EVO and competitive smash bros. They need representatives to take an objective look at the concept before they decide. Let me repeat, this is not an argument for or against custom moves, I'm just tired of all these singular perspectives on the issue.

 

[LancerStaff]

Let's say that we get a quick and easy way to get these custom sets and everything copied to a Wii U... (As long as the Miis are "transfered" you wouldn't need to mess with Mii Maker.) Basically 20XX tournament edition, even unlocks the characters and stages. Logistics isn't an issue.

Miis would be a non-issue, obviously. All it takes is to pick and play.

Palutena, on the other hand, still requires Customs to be turned on. Big reason why people don't want Miis is because they don't want Customs period... Okay, Miis aren't technically Customs, and if we were to get that far then most would agree. Palutena's other moves are definitely Customs though. There's really no sensible "break" between Palutena's moves and everybody else's, and everybody else's just aren't going to happen. Miis are three characters of varied viability, unplayable without making sets. Palutena is a decidedly unviable character who I don't think would be viable with customs anyway, and with her "banned" she's still usable.

For non-Mii players, adding Miis gives you three new characters to fight. For non-Palutena players, giving her customs makes some random, other character a bit more viable. At that point you might as well soft balance characters with move restrictions, because you're already limiting everybody else to 1111 arbitrarily. If Customs are off, then Customs are off. End of story.

 

[Raijinken]

Disclaimer: the following post isn't directed at any one person. Except for the first line, I suppose.

I seriously doubt the hot issue why people would be against Palutena customs is because they have to flip a switch in Smash mode.

No, it has to do with preparations. Setting up the sets beforehand, unlocking customs on the 3DS, then making the sets (which takes hours to go through the whole roster with a list in front of you) porting those sets to wii u systems (potentially as long as an hour per wii U, never had to use a 3DS for this myself), double checking each set is properly named and has the correct moves, make those corrections. This is a lot of prep work for a tournament of this size, and that's only the work done in the weeks before. In the months before July, there would have to be a re-evaluation of all characters to make new sets. Some characters have to make precious use of their maximum of 10 sets, while others just need two or three because their move pool is awful. No matter which character, this research and discussion takes a lot of time and is honestly not easy. Because our experience with customs in the first place is so limited, and everybody wants to take maximum advantage of this opportunity. And Smashboards does not, nor would it ever accurately represent the whole of the Smash community.

And Miis are naturally the biggest nightmare. There's infinite variations between height, width, and moves, and no cap on the amount of sets. So of course the mii players want to make up to 50 to cover every possible option, which is a lot of jumping back and forth between the game and Mii Maker. All that work for the three or so Swordfighters or Brawlers who are attending.

Please don't force yourself to misunderstand why people don't like the sound of customs. There's a lot of other, less objective issues, but they mostly boil down to civil unrest with the players. Doing research on 58 character Matchups is already taxing to the aspiring player, but all of those (minus DLC), plus their up to 10 variations? And you have to memorize moves by number? You could probably tell me what a Villager or Rosalina custom set is based on its number, but what about Kirby? Falco? Robin? And as a followup question - can the average player do that too? And don't say it's their job, because there's no fast and easy way to discern why one character's player base chose one move over another, unless it's something overwhelmingly better than the default.

So, when they group the inclusion of miis with the inclusion of customs, it makes perfect sense, since they both require this much effort and difficulty, and only having Miis and Palutena use customs would be totally exclusionary and unfair. Whatever opinion you or I have regarding customs is meaningless in the face of the burden it represents on EVO and competitive smash bros. They need representatives to take an objective look at the concept before they decide. Let me repeat, this is not an argument for or against custom moves, I'm just tired of all these singular perspectives on the issue.

It's about twenty minutes per Wii U, give or take, to transfer from 3DS. Done once, per revision to the moveset project. If you only have to make a few tweaks (freer smaller events), it's about a minute or a minute and a half, total, to make the set, name it by regular standards, and transfer it to the U from a 3DS. Obviously it's even less if your U itself is unlocked.

At any rate, volume of necessary (or even situational) game knowledge is not a valid complaint in a game. Ask anyone who plays any of the numerous vastly more knowledge-intensive games than Smash. It's daunting, but not detrimental to gameplay (also, for any given player, they should know their own character's options by number, and other players who like customs in general will most certainly know the majority of customs thus). The average player can absolutely memorize 200-some moves, because the average player memorizes far more just learning to play (not necessarily to the same pnemonic assignment, but mentally speaking the difference between "B is Fireball" and "2 is Fast Fireball" is negligible, if it exists at all). Comparisons can be drawn all day to Pokemon or Dota or whatever game with vastly more potential options per representative character, but in the end, it's a matter of people resisting learning eight more things per character in a standardized naming convention. It's a matter of lack of research/laziness, not complexity for your average Smash player, regardless of competitive intention or skill. But, to appease the whiners, I've always included a rule for my (far smaller than EVO but also far less preparation intensive) tournaments that gives either player the chance to demand a demonstration of the equipped moves at game start, with no obligation for the user to explain their function (it's the players' responsibility to be informed, no johns for your failure to do research. People would laugh at me if I complained about the different properties of Pikmin, and I laugh at them for not knowing that Kong Cyclone is laughably punishable).

Miis are fine if you just allow movesets. MLG did alright with it. I'm all for size customization, myself, but it's harder to standardize.

Alternately, if information volume bothers you, to use the exhausted irrelevant comparison, you really shouldn't be playing a game with over fifty mostly-unique characters, a moderate selection of impactful but distinct stages, and balance patches. Don't draw some blurry line of "jank" or "too much info" or "too much counterplay" in a game, nay, franchise, which has done nothing but expand all of those across its lifetime.