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Important Official Custom Moveset Project

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Amazing Ampharos

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I'm saying anyone can post here to bring up characters, and we can move the discussion to character boards as necessary for characters who end up really needing revision. I make this suggestion for the following two reasons:

-Most characters do not need revision.
-Monitoring 52 discussions (all 51 non-DLC character boards plus this discussion) is unbelievably difficult and time consuming.

There's no point where we just say one character will not be considered; it's more like streamlining discussion to only the necessary venues.
 

RonNewcomb

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Sometimes it's better to stack strengths than to worry about weaknesses though. Link always has to justify why he's being used over Toon Link, and great kill power is a great argument. Shocking Spin is 3f slower and does cut your survivability somewhat (I think you can make a lot of recoveries with just the tether though), but the power it offers is pretty large at this point.
I know, I've seen super-zoner Villager too. But buffing damage on SS is like buffing damage on Falcon Punch: using it in neutral is suicide and you can't combo into it so what's the...

...

Actually I don't think we re-evaluated since Link got the buffs to tether grab and dthrow combo. I wonder if SS can be combo'ed into from dthrow?

OK, I'll reevaluate... but not because of the dmg.

Once you have a list of characters who need revision, go to only those boards and work there. .... We can probably get together a good list of characters needing revision, have it be a relatively small subset of all characters, and make updating far easier than it would be otherwise.
Link boards have already eschewed Power Bow for Quickfire Bow. QB got a hitstun buff a few patches ago which made all the difference in the world, and nobody can find anything reliable for PB. Read my post (from a few months ago) in the Link boards "Top 8 (max) custom sets" for details.
 
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Ansou

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I'm saying anyone can post here to bring up characters, and we can move the discussion to character boards as necessary for characters who end up really needing revision. I make this suggestion for the following two reasons:

-Most characters do not need revision.
-Monitoring 52 discussions (all 51 non-DLC character boards plus this discussion) is unbelievably difficult and time consuming.

There's no point where we just say one character will not be considered; it's more like streamlining discussion to only the necessary venues.
Well you obviously know better than me how difficult it is to monitor discussions for movesets so maybe I'm just too optimistic if I think that it should be okay if we have a bigger group of people that does it. Anyway, if we're only going to look at some of the characters, I would like to add Kirby to the list. 1232 needs to be in the project now that Inhale has been buffed. Also, Grounding Stone should probably be on most of the sets.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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I know, I've seen super-zoner Villager too. But buffing damage on SS is like buffing damage on Falcon Punch: using it in neutral is suicide and you can't combo into it so what's the...

...

Actually I don't think we re-evaluated since Link got the buffs to tether grab and dthrow combo. I wonder if SS can be combo'ed into from dthrow?

OK, I'll reevaluate... but NOT because of the dmg buff.



Link boards have already eschewed Power Bow for Quickfire Bow. QB got a hitstun buff a few patches ago which made all the difference in the world, and nobody can find anything reliable for PB. Read my post in the Link boards "Top 8 (max) custom sets" for details.
Yeah, our local Link player (who isn't very loyal to Link, but that's neither here nor there) really prefers the 3211 set, and it does seem best overall to me. Realistically most Links are going to want 3211 or 3213 depending on how comfortable they are with Meteor Bombs or perhaps the MU (default vs meteors on down-B seems like a roughly even trade-off to me). Either way though, that leaves 8 more possible sets for Link, and I was mostly trying to suggest that Shocking Spin Attack probably has enough merit to warrant consideration for those. I'll bite and suggest that true comboing into either spin is not very realistic; the 3f difference is handy for more pseudo-combos for default, but Link doesn't seem likely to convert a small hit into a kill by comboing into up-B in general. Shocking Spin Attack uncharged does 16%, and kills Sheik in training mode from the center of an omega at 97% while default does 14% and kills Sheik at 113% from the center of an omega. The extra 2% damage doesn't really matter, but killing 16% earlier does (an effect I suspect will be multiplied with the 1.05x freshness multiplier and being closer to the edge). On hard reads, Shocking Spin with a substantial charge is going to kill silly early.

I suppose the conclusion I'm going for is that Link does need revision since 3211 and 3213 are his clear best sets, facts I imagine we agree on. I just see Shocking Spin Attack as his most appealing option outside of those two (default Bow is trash, Power Bow is mostly a teams move, Gale Boomerang is "okay" but mostly just worse, the third Boomerang is really unappealing, Whirling Leap is giving up way too much for a recovery that honestly isn't meaningfully better, and giant bombs seem bad all around to me).
 

ParanoidDrone

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I can agree with adding 2213 to Rosalina's sets -- 231(1/3) and 2211 already exist so that would round out the quartet nicely.

There was a kerfuffle over a lack of Power Luma Shot sets and while I don't personally see the merits to that particular move it may be worth considering.

Idea: Asking well known character mains directly what sets they'd like to use?
 

Raijinken

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Sometimes it's better to stack strengths than to worry about weaknesses though. Link always has to justify why he's being used over Toon Link, and great kill power is a great argument. Shocking Spin is 3f slower and does cut your survivability somewhat (I think you can make a lot of recoveries with just the tether though), but the power it offers is pretty large at this point.

---

My suggested method going forward would be to start by compiling a list of characters who directly need some degree of revision. Some characters, like Jigglypuff or Little Mac, are pretty much going to be fine with what they have now, and it will be an unneeded burden to deal with those boards at all. Once you have a list of characters who need revision, go to only those boards and work there.

Off the top of my head, I know every local Mario I've talked to doesn't understand why X3X3 isn't a set (most Mario players in practice seem to like 1313, 1333, 2313, 2333 far more than every other set, and even though I see the merits in Scalding FLUDD, adding 1312, 1332, 2312, and 2332 to that would still only be 8 sets so really it's Shocking Cape sets and such that are taking space with sets very few people actually use). Pac-Mans are unhappy about not having the option of default Trampoline, and honestly the extra recovery side-B seems too compelling to just leave out especially when in practice I've never seen anyone take the custom fruits seriously (freaky would be good if freaky key didn't suck so much, and lazy is just too easy to catch). I know I have a local Shulk who really wants 2122 and has a pretty good argument for it (his case is that Shulk is 1/2, 1, 2, 2/3 with default vs decisive artes and dash vs power vision as match-up specific; hypers are fun but just don't last long enough to be practical whereas the other two have great benefits, default Back Slash is less limited than the other two, Advancing Air Slash makes Shulk way less gimpable than the other two options, and while default Vision is nearly strictly outclassed by the other two Dash vs Power is about choosing whether you want something way easier to hit with or something that kills very early). I think time has shown Ike's Paralyzing Counter is probably just not as good as default; I'd at least think it wise to revisit how many sets it takes. Floaty Star Bit on Rosalina is probably good enough now to merit dropping some unused set for 2213. The (Dark) Pits are unhappy with our sets due to leaving out Striking Flight as I recall. I dunno, there may be others; those are the ones that have stood out to me so far. We can probably get together a good list of characters needing revision, have it be a relatively small subset of all characters, and make updating far easier than it would be otherwise.
Not knowing how much you've read the backlog since your break, I made a post a few pages back containing a list of all moves not present in the existing project. While it doesn't take certain combinations into account, it may help direct the analysis, both for moves that should be represented (i.e. defaults that aren't present outside of Default), and moves that may have gotten buffed since the EVO version was set.

As to the Shulk arts, I'm personally still a fan of Hyper, but that's largely a result of prolonged use and a bias towards flexibility not offered by Decisive.

One potential direction we could take, perhaps now, perhaps in the future, would be to set some sets for doubles-oriented loadouts. Like you mentioned, most Links (and probably most players of most characters) will take one of a few movesets most of the time, leaving us room for 2-3 Doubles-centric sets, such as the aforementioned Power Bow, and perhaps Lazy Fruit (I know at least for Pac-Man himself it has a catch limit, haven't tested with other humans).
 
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pandan

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Well... How would we do this then? I don't really know of a reliable way to get the attention of the developers.
Good point. Nintendo has done a great job of walling themselves in away from their playerbase for feedback.
 

MrGame&Rock

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If we're revising stuff now, I'd really like to see 12X1 Ike, because I've been using him a bit and default eruption does more for me than Furious. I use eruption to edgeguard and I don't want recoil damage when I'm doing that. And, default counter is better for me than paralyzing counter.

Also, for the Miis, should we adapt to tournament scenes that insist on guest miis with moveset freedom? Creating default height/weight options for swordfighter/gunner and expanding them for Brawler? Then again, there's already so many miis on my wii u from the first iteration of the Project that finding one to play with is a nightmare
 

Raijinken

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If we're revising stuff now, I'd really like to see 12X1 Ike, because I've been using him a bit and default eruption does more for me than Furious. I use eruption to edgeguard and I don't want recoil damage when I'm doing that. And, default counter is better for me than paralyzing counter.

Also, for the Miis, should we adapt to tournament scenes that insist on guest miis with moveset freedom? Creating default height/weight options for swordfighter/gunner and expanding them for Brawler? Then again, there's already so many miis on my wii u from the first iteration of the Project that finding one to play with is a nightmare
My personal inclination is that even if MLG is going the moveset-freedom route, that's not necessarily likely to remain if Customs are re-adopted.

It's a matter of parity. If, hypothetically, customs were resumed, then the two options are to either only used fully-unlocked consoles (not happening unless the process is way simplified or they can be bought via DLC) and allow the same thing that is allowed for Miis (allow a player up to, say, three custom sets to create at the start of the set), or to require everyone to use a moveset project option (else Miis and, arguably, Palutena would have a non-parity bias in their freedom of set creation).

I'd still support finding "optimal" movesets assuming Default Miis, but that's just because at this point I do think that ensured parity across systems is a valid Mii concern, and guests (or aesthetically different but functionally identical home made Miis) are the only way to do that.

I don't think the movesets will change much, that said. They already had an exceptional amount of variety since they were limited to 33.333 sets each instead of 10.
 

RonNewcomb

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Yeah, our local Link player (who isn't very loyal to Link, but that's neither here nor there) really prefers the 3211 set, and it does seem best overall to me. Realistically most Links are going to want 3211 or 3213 depending on how comfortable they are with Meteor Bombs or perhaps the MU (default vs meteors on down-B seems like a roughly even trade-off to me). Either way though, that leaves 8 more possible sets for Link, and I was mostly trying to suggest that Shocking Spin Attack probably has enough merit to warrant consideration for those. I'll bite and suggest that true comboing into either spin is not very realistic; the 3f difference is handy for more pseudo-combos for default, but Link doesn't seem likely to convert a small hit into a kill by comboing into up-B in general. Shocking Spin Attack uncharged does 16%, and kills Sheik in training mode from the center of an omega at 97% while default does 14% and kills Sheik at 113% from the center of an omega. The extra 2% damage doesn't really matter, but killing 16% earlier does (an effect I suspect will be multiplied with the 1.05x freshness multiplier and being closer to the edge). On hard reads, Shocking Spin with a substantial charge is going to kill silly early.

I suppose the conclusion I'm going for is that Link does need revision since 3211 and 3213 are his clear best sets, facts I imagine we agree on. I just see Shocking Spin Attack as his most appealing option outside of those two (default Bow is trash, Power Bow is mostly a teams move, Gale Boomerang is "okay" but mostly just worse, the third Boomerang is really unappealing, Whirling Leap is giving up way too much for a recovery that honestly isn't meaningfully better, and giant bombs seem bad all around to me).
(I've been going through a character crisis myself lately, so I'm in no position to judge your local Link.)

Yes to 3211 and 3213. I still prefer default Bow against slower characters, so I definitely would want to keep 1211 and 1213. I don't think these four sets are at all controversial.

I have a use for Whirling Leap. There are chars whose gameplan is to carry Link off stage and/or gimp him, cause it's easier than trying to kill him outright. Usually it's the lightest characters in the game: Jiggs, Kirby, Metaknight, Pit & DPit, Mewtwo, Villager, G&W, and (odd man out but fantastic aerial speed) Wario. Link isn't too gimpable with tether recovery, but these chars will meet Link way out beyond tether recovery range. For these I like 3231. Meter bombs do next to nothing to these guys; I've hit Kirby with two MBs in a row and he still made it back. So I would never pair MBs with Whirling Leap. Whirling Leap can get Link back to the stage before the puffball trio can. But this is the only set I'd run with Whirling Leap.

Beyond that I dunno. Shocking Spin and Power Bow have their devotees but I don't know what set they like to run with them.
 

ParanoidDrone

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One potential direction we could take, perhaps now, perhaps in the future, would be to set some sets for doubles-oriented loadouts. Like you mentioned, most Links (and probably most players of most characters) will take one of a few movesets most of the time, leaving us room for 2-3 Doubles-centric sets, such as the aforementioned Power Bow, and perhaps Lazy Fruit (I know at least for Pac-Man himself it has a catch limit, haven't tested with other humans).
IIRC Pac-Man's fruit can be recaught indefinitely as long as it's Z-dropped. If you use the A button to throw it then you can't pick it up again. I'd assume this applies to Lazy and Freaky fruits too but I don't actually know that for certain.
I don't think the movesets will change much, that said. They already had an exceptional amount of variety since they were limited to 33.333 sets each instead of 10.
And Brawler only used 8 sets because that was literally all possible combinations of his worth-using customs.
 

san.

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If we're revising stuff now, I'd really like to see 12X1 Ike, because I've been using him a bit and default eruption does more for me than Furious. I use eruption to edgeguard and I don't want recoil damage when I'm doing that. And, default counter is better for me than paralyzing counter.

Also, for the Miis, should we adapt to tournament scenes that insist on guest miis with moveset freedom? Creating default height/weight options for swordfighter/gunner and expanding them for Brawler? Then again, there's already so many miis on my wii u from the first iteration of the Project that finding one to play with is a nightmare
Eruption:
1=2 > 3

Yeah, metagame advancements made Ike's eruption 1 the best. With the buffs to Tempest having 9 frames less endlag, they're around equal now. Furious is still good, but it has trouble hitting below. As a ledge trap, it's by far the best though, but more of a guessing game than eruption frame vulnerability and tempest gimps.

Quick Draw:
1=2>3

Unyielding blade isn't terrible anymore because of the hitlag adjustment. I could actually see it having some niche use, especially when the other quick draws get stuffed offstage and paired with diagonal aether. 1 is as good as 2 because the extra distance+autocancel helps with recovery and disadvantage.

Aether:
1>2=3

Diagonal aether can be a little difficult to position at times. 3 is quick and the projectile can be pretty useful still.

Counter:
1>3=2

Counter 1 as an edgeguard stuffs a surprising number of recoveries.
Buffs to smash counter makes it a threat as low as 40% against most characters. The shield stun change also makes it so that smash counter getting shielded isn't immediately punished.
Paralyzing counter is still very difficult to make hit, but the reward is still among the highest.
 

Raijinken

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Eruption:
1=2 > 3

Yeah, metagame advancements made Ike's eruption 1 the best. With the buffs to Tempest having 9 frames less endlag, they're around equal now. Furious is still good, but it has trouble hitting below. As a ledge trap, it's by far the best though, but more of a guessing game than eruption frame vulnerability and tempest gimps.

Quick Draw:
1=2>3

Unyielding blade isn't terrible anymore because of the hitlag adjustment. I could actually see it having some niche use, especially when the other quick draws get stuffed offstage and paired with diagonal aether. 1 is as good as 2 because the extra distance+autocancel helps with recovery and disadvantage.

Aether:
1>2=3

Diagonal aether can be a little difficult to position at times. 3 is quick and the projectile can be pretty useful still.

Counter:
1>3=2

Counter 1 as an edgeguard stuffs a surprising number of recoveries.
Buffs to smash counter makes it a threat as low as 40% against most characters. The shield stun change also makes it so that smash counter getting shielded isn't immediately punished.
Paralyzing counter is still very difficult to make hit, but the reward is still among the highest.
Does that Smash Counter analysis still apply with the knockback changes in 1.1.1?
 

san.

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Does that Smash Counter analysis still apply with the knockback changes in 1.1.1?
The KBG 100->70, BKB 48->90

makes it stronger than it was before until ~100% at min damage. It's overall even stronger than before, unless you smash countered a Ganon Fsmash at 20%, and even then prepatch is only slightly stronger at high damage and low %.
 

ZarroTsu

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Last update had 90% custom buffs.

Next update, I suspect, will have several custom nerfs.

The only problem with customs at the moment is collection. This is what this project is for; so you can use the known work-around with 3DS power saves and load up the systems in advance. We keep our fingers crossed for an update that makes collection easier, but with no luck yet. Perhaps it'll never come.

Regardless, customs is simply an alternative method of play. A different means of entertainment, in the video entertainment medium we call Smash Brothers. They change the way you play the game, and it offers a lot of fun new options.

The only reason I can fathom as to why scenes are against customs, is because the players at the scenes are against customs. And the players against customs... Aren't likely to change their opinions, since customs are by in large 'optional'. And anything 'optional', since it doesn't need to be learned to play the game, will be recommended against by anyone unwilling to learn them.

But, we haven't seen a tangible problem yet, aside from a certain Villager player getting verbally harassed for playing the game in a way he liked to play. Some people value their experiences higher than others, I guess.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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When I see how much people don't want to learn (just in general), it's one of the things that gets me pretty down. To me, after the game has been out a year, everyone should be pretty familiar with everything in the game and things like unlocking should be a triviality buried in the past, but I still routinely see insanity like set-ups that haven't even unlocked all of the stages or people who know what pretty much none of the customs do. It's just like "what have you guys even been doing this past year?" to me. I unlocked all of the customs in a few weeks, and I had a general idea of what they all did in the first month. I knew most of the cool ones from the 3ds version honestly; I figured it was just obvious that once a new game comes out you would immediately explore everything in the game. That's before we consider the way that so many people don't even seem to know the gameplay basics of most of the cast; as a Rosalina player, it really does amaze me that my character is considered top tier by so many and yet so many don't seem to have a firm grasp of her basic mechanics with Luma...

Likewise to me, customs is an assumed default mode of play because it's one sided. Like I don't mind if my opponent picks a default character; why does my opponent care if I pick a custom one? If I'm not allowed to use 2311 Rosalina because my opponent doesn't want to learn it, can I tell my opponent they can't use 1111 Luigi because I don't want to learn it? I mean, seriously, that guy kills my character with up-B at under 60% and can combo into said up-B from his jab; that's way more work for me to play around than me being able to shoot little star bits that do 4% damage and teleport my Luma an absolutely fixed range is for the other side to deal with. I don't really see the downside of letting everyone run their own stuff and then letting the game take care of itself. Let people who don't want to learn lose to stuff they don't understand (or perhaps master a narrow subset of what the game offers so thoroughly to overcome the disadvantages of not knowing things; that's cool too), and let people who do want to explore and learn use the full breadth of what the game offers.

As per Captain Awesum's Villager play, it does bear note that Exploding Balloon Trip was silently nerfed really hard this update. The smaller hitboxes really matter, and the gas reduction is to the point that it's actually a recovery liability over default instead of just a strict upgrade. People who use the "strategy" of just run into explosions over and over again would definitely still lose to a ledgestall strategy, but I feel the overall dynamics for those who play smart against it have shifted a lot more toward Villager's opponent (not that Villager was winning tournaments with this tactic in the first place). It's pretty clear in general that Nintendo is keyed in on Villager gimmick strategies, and they've been pro-active about keeping them as limited as possible.

Well, that was my mini-rant for the day. To be more pointed, this project exists for the same reasons it always has: to make customs as easy to use as possible for people. We're a bit adrift at the moment organizationally, but I'm sure we'll sort it out relatively soon, update some sets as I know a few characters are a bit outdated (some of those outdates are caused by patch changes, others by meta developments). We just need to update the sets to keep up with that. After accomplishing that goal which should be relatively easy (certainly much easier than the previous update that was so comprehensive), some of us would be wise to turn our attention to correcting the ever-present misconceptions people still have about customs.
 

Nu~

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Sometimes it's better to stack strengths than to worry about weaknesses though. Link always has to justify why he's being used over Toon Link, and great kill power is a great argument. Shocking Spin is 3f slower and does cut your survivability somewhat (I think you can make a lot of recoveries with just the tether though), but the power it offers is pretty large at this point.

---

My suggested method going forward would be to start by compiling a list of characters who directly need some degree of revision. Some characters, like Jigglypuff or Little Mac, are pretty much going to be fine with what they have now, and it will be an unneeded burden to deal with those boards at all. Once you have a list of characters who need revision, go to only those boards and work there.

Off the top of my head, I know every local Mario I've talked to doesn't understand why X3X3 isn't a set (most Mario players in practice seem to like 1313, 1333, 2313, 2333 far more than every other set, and even though I see the merits in Scalding FLUDD, adding 1312, 1332, 2312, and 2332 to that would still only be 8 sets so really it's Shocking Cape sets and such that are taking space with sets very few people actually use). Pac-Mans are unhappy about not having the option of default Trampoline, and honestly the extra recovery side-B seems too compelling to just leave out especially when in practice I've never seen anyone take the custom fruits seriously (freaky would be good if freaky key didn't suck so much, and lazy is just too easy to catch). I know I have a local Shulk who really wants 2122 and has a pretty good argument for it (his case is that Shulk is 1/2, 1, 2, 2/3 with default vs decisive artes and dash vs power vision as match-up specific; hypers are fun but just don't last long enough to be practical whereas the other two have great benefits, default Back Slash is less limited than the other two, Advancing Air Slash makes Shulk way less gimpable than the other two options, and while default Vision is nearly strictly outclassed by the other two Dash vs Power is about choosing whether you want something way easier to hit with or something that kills very early). I think time has shown Ike's Paralyzing Counter is probably just not as good as default; I'd at least think it wise to revisit how many sets it takes. Floaty Star Bit on Rosalina is probably good enough now to merit dropping some unused set for 2213. The (Dark) Pits are unhappy with our sets due to leaving out Striking Flight as I recall. I dunno, there may be others; those are the ones that have stood out to me so far. We can probably get together a good list of characters needing revision, have it be a relatively small subset of all characters, and make updating far easier than it would be otherwise.
Why would the distant power pellet be any more useful than the original though?

The opponent has more time to hit your power pellet or just spike you before you get to the pellet. I still prefer the original since I find it overall safer and more useful for killing(DA -> bell -> side B kills at 50)
 
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Garo

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I know a few characters are a bit outdated (some of those outdates are caused by patch changes, others by meta developments).
The part about meta development caught my eye. Could someone kindly explain which customs have been affected by these developments and how, or direct me to somewhere I could read about this?
 

Raijinken

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The part about meta development caught my eye. Could someone kindly explain which customs have been affected by these developments and how, or direct me to somewhere I could read about this?
The quick answers are Ike and Shulk. Even with minimal patching, Shulk players have figured that Dash Vision helps more against projectiles while still being plenty strong. Power Vision takes up the vast majority of the movesets, though. Similarly, at the time, everyone figured Meteor Trampoline for Pac-Man was ideal, but nowadays we realize it definitely isn't due to the greater backfire potential. And as more people learn to play around Counter Timber (and Extreme Balloon Trip), their alternates become more appealing as default Timber comes with better kill options, and Balloon Trip (and even Balloon High Jump) are far safer recoveries.

There are more examples, but I've gotta go to work.

Edit now that I'm back from work: A lot of this depends on the individual experimentation done post-implementation, as well. I initially ran Marth 3123 because I liked Dashing Assault. But observations on its endlag and the fact that it isn't a shield breaker made me change my mind. On Shulk again, a lot of people are leaning towards reducing the presence of Hyper Monado Arts due to their high polarity. While I don't participate in those discussions myself, I find them still more appealing than Decisive, because I find the ability to swap to be a critical trait of Shulk's.

And of course, there are some for the existing top-level characters that were once considered "straight upgrades" or broken on broken characters, yet people are finding (or refining) skills using the defaults that the alternates don't rival (Gravity Grenade and Luma Warp spring to mind).
 
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MrGame&Rock

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I have a quick question about Rosalina and Luma and how they do in Customs. Yeah they get Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit and such, and have better custom options than other top tiers who aren't Pikachu, but at the same time a lot of characters have custom moves that work a lot better against Rosaluma. Flame Chain, Lick, Dragon Ruch(?), and a few other moves like them. In default only Pit got that option with Dark Pit. Does the presence of customs on other characters that work better against Rosaluma cancel out the benefits she gets from customs, or vice versa, or is it a wash?
 

Raijinken

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I have a quick question about Rosalina and Luma and how they do in Customs. Yeah they get Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit and such, and have better custom options than other top tiers who aren't Pikachu, but at the same time a lot of characters have custom moves that work a lot better against Rosaluma. Flame Chain, Lick, Dragon Ruch(?), and a few other moves like them. In default only Pit got that option with Dark Pit. Does the presence of customs on other characters that work better against Rosaluma cancel out the benefits she gets from customs, or vice versa, or is it a wash?
Depends on the character, of course.

But the main thing is that only Shooting Star Bit is actually more-or-less an upgrade. Luma Warp gives you great reactability, but it has dead spots at mid range and isn't, itself, an attack (well, technically it deals like four damage or something with negligible knockback). It's a bit like Distant Nosferatu, but instead of being garbage, it's just a side-grade that was somewhat over-hyped.

Oh, but as for a meta advancement, the very fact that Kong Cyclone is still the poster boy for "Customs are OP" while most active Customs players think it a joke is a great example of meta development.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Here are the main meta developments I can think of that are relevant to which customs should be used:

-Advancing Air Slash is seriously just better than default; Shulk's default Air Slash is a really limited, gimpable recovery which is simply not a problem Advancing Air Slash has, and Advancing Air Slash as an additional benefit gives Shulk a pretty flush ledge game. As said before, Dash Vision has shown serious promise and has legitimate match-up utility over Power Vision; Shulks should be CPing their down special based on MU which was not known before. Locally we have a pretty strong Shulk who has shown me through play that both default and decisive artes are really good for different reasons (and which you take hugely shifts Shulk's game flow; Sakurai and team did a ridiculously good job on that choice IMO) but that hypers, while still good, seem to be the worst option. If I were writing Shulk's moves today, I'd lobby for 1122, 1123, 2122, and 2123 to be included as his four most critical sets, but hypers would be my next pick for important inclusions so probably 3122 and 3123 as well (probably followed by 1113, 2113, 3113, and 1133 as sets no one will ever use but are the most viable of remaining options).

-As .san said, Paralyzing Counter overall has shown itself to be somewhat less worthwhile for Ike than default (default does stuff off-stage or in weird aerial situations), and default Eruption is somewhat less bad than it seemed at first compared to the other options. No one in my region uses Ike so I can't say I'm a huge personal expert on custom Ike, but I know his sets need work.

-Every Mario player I've ever spoken to agrees that not having 1313, 1333, 2313, and 2333 as sets was insane in the first place and is still insane now.

-Pac-Mans I think have through practice about concluded that fruit variants really aren't worth using while default trampoline is at least sometimes (it's a fair trade-off with meteor as it turns out). To answer Nu~ Nu~ directly, I would use Distant Power Pellet because I find default Power Pellet to be a pretty bad move for everything but recovery (comboing into it from bell stun is interesting and perhaps the only offensive situation in which the move is non-suicide, but when I play Pac, my personal style is pretty bell-lite though I've seen others use the bell to great effect) and honestly only find it useful at that when I'm in situations where my up-B won't go far enough in one bounce. I'd really prefer to have the huge distance so I can just draw a line really high up off-stage and do a high recovery in more situations than anything default offers me. I don't think default should be a non-option or anything that extreme, but I'd really like to have the option of distant especially paired with Meteor Trampoline.

-The Pits noticed that Striking Flight is kinda good, realistically usable if nothing else.

-As we were discussing above, the Links have concluded (though patches helped solidify it) that the seemingly useless Quickfire Bow is actually his best option.

-While not limited for slots, I think most customs on gameplay has shown that Piercing Aura Sphere on Lucario is pretty awesome, pretty safely his best option on neutral special. This was not how it seemed months ago.

Those are just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more that could be said.

---

To answer the question about Rosalina, as a main of the character who is also pretty deep into this whole custom thing, I feel pretty uniquely qualified to answer that. Customs hurt Rosalina's average match-up but make her more viable overall because they help her in her otherwise bad match-ups. Those anti-Luma moves are mostly (entirely?) had by characters who Rosalina kinda walks all over with customs off, and of course, there's always the direct things like "Ganondorf being able to recover makes him a credible threat in general which of course helps him against Rosalina just like it helps him against everyone else". When you add it up, it's a lot of characters who improve against her for having access to customs, and that really dents her average performance.

Shooting Star Bit and Luma Warp are general purpose good moves, but the main MUs they really do a lot of work is against opposing camp. Default Rosalina has pretty much zero viable options to force an opposing zoning or run-away character to approach her; I'm convinced Olimar is a super nasty secret counter, and in general anyone whose strategy is to just run away from Rosalina and time her out (who has the moveset to support doing that) pretty much sucks to fight with her other than Duck Hunt who without Zig-Zag Shot has zero real options to deal with the "hit down-B" Rosalina strategy (Zig-Zag Shot addresses that REALLY well though). For dealing with more general zoning, Rosalina has low mobility, and if she has to block on her way in, it gets Luma knocked out of position or killed which means that even if she can punish OoS her punish is going to be weak and won't kill before 160%. Her customs give her the additional option of quickly deploying Luma (fast enough that someone far enough away to be zoning you out might get hit!) and of just shooting a pesky projectile that, while pretty poor at zoning itself, is pretty good at making people either approach or, if they're dedicated to camp, deal with it just enough to give Rosalina enough time to corner them. That way instead of playing a frustrating game of pin the tail on the donkey or dance through the minefield with a huge, slow character who gets punished extra for blocking (and super extra for spotdodging which is guaranteed not to cover Luma!) I can create footsies situations where my character actually performs well. Some people like to imagine that Grav Pull by itself means she wins against all opposing projectiles, but of course, smart players who main projectile characters will usually respond to her grav pulling one by just firing another which if your projectile is actually good is probably an action that will be frame advantageous to you and not to Rosalina.

Customs just lead to Rosalina being involved in more quality gameplay all around; even if I didn't care about her tier position at all, her meta is just a lot more pleasant for everyone involved when customs are on. I don't think customs on tournaments have shown Rosalina being used particularly more than customs off (she's not really that popular of a pick despite how much hype she has as an allegedly super overpowered character). I know I've never been able to create any abusive, easy win situations with Shooting Star Bit or Luma Warp in all my time playing custom Rosalina; as long as your opponent is on the level to have a basic concept of how to deal with any projectile in general and as long as your opponent knows anything about spacing at all it's really hard to milk those two moves very far since honestly I can really only use them more than rarely if it's as a response to my opponent's tactics which isn't something I have full control over.
 

RonNewcomb

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Here are the main meta developments I can think of that are relevant to which customs should be used:
........
Those are just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's more that could be said.
Marth & Lucina have discovered Crescent Slash as the preferred up-B because it combos from grab. Apparently shields were an issue for these characters because of poor grab rewards and CS plugs that hole. Neutral-B keep going back n forth, especially with the recent nerf to vanilla Shield Breaker.

I have a Lucina build I like with Windbox neutral B, hitboxless high-jump up-B, Heavy side-B, and Iai (side-swap) Counter. I use this build as an off-stage fighter. (Heavy dancing blade is otherwise completely useless.) Lucina has more issues killing than Marth does, hence the build. ::shrug::
 

ぱみゅ

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Marth and Lucina NEED 1113 for those matchups where Crescent Slash is not guaranteed.
:196:
 

Raijinken

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Marth and Lucina NEED 1113 for those matchups where Crescent Slash is not guaranteed.
:196:
While I'd probably take Crescent anyway just in case (and because I play roughly as much Roy and am thus used to the horizontal range), I have a friend who swears by 1113 just because he still prefers the deep offstage instead of the far offstage.

I'd definitely prefer that over 1131 though.
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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Amazing Ampharos Amazing Ampharos how is Advancing Air Slash superior to default for recovery?
It's way less gimpable. The distance is slightly less, but default Shulk has to be a super picky (and very unnatural and distant) spacing away from a ledge to grab it without getting killed. AAS Shulk has actual flexibility. It also makes landing on the stage more practical (AAS into the ground isn't very laggy) and once you're on a ledge you can ledge drop without being instantly dead (if default Shulk does this and his opponent is good, he has zero options not to die) which is yet more effective recovery options. AAS is really incredible; you'll lose your first 3-4 games using it because you aren't used to it, but once you do get used to it, you really wonder why anyone would ever think default up-B for Shulk is a good idea.

Marth & Lucina have discovered Crescent Slash as the preferred up-B because it combos from grab. Apparently shields were an issue for these characters because of poor grab rewards and CS plugs that hole. Neutral-B keep going back n forth, especially with the recent nerf to vanilla Shield Breaker.

I have a Lucina build I like with Windbox neutral B, hitboxless high-jump up-B, Heavy side-B, and Iai (side-swap) Counter. I use this build as an off-stage fighter. (Heavy dancing blade is otherwise completely useless.) Lucina has more issues killing than Marth does, hence the build. ::shrug::
They were starting to figure out Crescent Slash before the last update which is why I didn't mention it. I agree in general with the idea that Crescent Slash is awesome though; I consider it the best thing about the character in general and one of the strongest moves in the game. Even outside of grab combos, it's just REALLY good once you get used to it; it's actually a better general purpose recovery (most recoveries you'll have to make are horizontal), and the huge range means you can hit with it on reads in way more situations than default Dolphin Slash could ever work.
 

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AAS is also a much superior on-stage option than default. When used on-stage, the second slash takes you to very close to the ground, replacing the helpless fall with just a pause before landing. This makes it less punishable on whiff and gives him a half-way decent out of shield option.
 

MrGame&Rock

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I kinda don't want to ask about Yoshi because I use default Yoshi because my scene is customs off, but I love him so I'll ask about Yoshi anyway. Namely, are crushing bomb and Lick good moves?
 

Raijinken

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I kinda don't want to ask about Yoshi because I use default Yoshi because my scene is customs off, but I love him so I'll ask about Yoshi anyway. Namely, are crushing bomb and Lick good moves?
I've seen remarkably little custom Yoshi. The main ones I've seen considered "useful" are Light Egg Roll, and arguably Egg Launch for certain applications. Crushing Bomb sounds good in theory to me on a read, but Yoshi's one of my least played characters in this game so my theory for him doesn't count for much. I just know I don't like facing him as most of my preferred characters.
 

Amazing Ampharos

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Crushing Bomb is pretty bad (slower in a way that loses almost all of its offensive utility, extra power isn't enough to be worth fishing for on really hard reads), but Star Bomb has some utility (is the best bomb if you just use it as an escape and not on offense, probably worse than default overall but a good move in its own unique way). Lick is a really interesting move that has a lot of cool momentum tricks, but I haven't seen any Yoshi use it in practice. IMO Egg Launch is just better than default; it creates nasty situations for victims who get hit by putting them off-stage which overall are nastier situations than putting someone in the on-stage reset of default. On side-B, all three of Yoshi's options are pretty bad with niche uses. Heavy Egg Roll beats certain attacks nothing else will (while being really slow), Light Egg Roll is burst movement at the cost of very high frame commitment, and default has almost no real use but is the least committed of the three if you accidentally use it when trying to use up special. I don't think any sane Yoshi would ever use a custom up special; his default is by far the best. One local player likes to use 3312 Yoshi; he's not the strongest player overall, but he gets a bit of mileage out of the customs. In general though, Yoshi is definitely one of the characters with relatively less to gain... though I do think a lot of Yoshi mains write off what options he has too quickly.
 

W.A.C.

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Lick is a good move, but Yoshi losing his command grab is not worth it. He needs his command grab to compensate for his horrendous grab game. Both Egg Launch and Egg Lay are great moves and which one is best to use depends on the matchup. None of his other custom specials are worth using IMO.
 

Raijinken

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If default Egg Throw wasn't so obnoxious itself I'd think Timed Egg Throw had some point, but the default is just that obnoxiously good.
 

TheAnomaly

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Lick is situational and while it should always be used against Rosaluma, I can't stress enough how monstrous of a command grab Egg Launch is(best in the game IMO). You get an edgeguard 50/50 situation in Yoshi's favor every time it connects and I think it is ever so slightly quicker than default on startup. You can be losing the game solidly, connect a surprise egg launch mid stage(bad DI will take them offstage) and hard read the opponents out of egg option and kill them at just about any %. The move just puts opponents in bad situations and is generally more useful than default.(also, free wins vs lil mac mains)

I always use light eggroll instead of default because although no sane Yoshi ever means to press his side b, in the event that it happens while trying to throw an egg, being in the air is generally a lot safer than rolling at your opponent at 2 meters a second when they can shield you and smash you for free. I have also found some incredibly situational uses for chasing people to the top blast zone corners(after connecting an attack that barely missed the ko) while still having your double jump.
 

ZarroTsu

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(also, free wins vs lil mac mains)
Times like this I wonder "Why in gods name doesn't Little Mac have a better recovery variant on his Side-B to counter this BS", but then I remember "lol Sakurai".

Poor, poor Little Mac.
 

Raijinken

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Times like this I wonder "Why in gods name doesn't Little Mac have a better recovery variant on his Side-B to counter this BS", but then I remember "lol Sakurai".

Poor, poor Little Mac.
His armored side-B is arguably a recovery variant. Additionally, you can use Flaming Lunge as a recovery mixup. He DOES get recovery options, they're just... kinda like putting him at Ganondorf levels of recovery instead of Mac levels of recovery.
 

ZarroTsu

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Well I mean, you get chars who leap and launch people 80 feet into the sky and Mac's best recovery distance is like... 20 feet.
 
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