Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[FishkeeperTimmay!]

Yeah, hence the reason why the Marth board now considers MK a 60/40 disadvantage, we discussed it at length.

Actually, this is how I found out. I don't post in the Match-up threads often because I generally suck at analyzing them. Its not my thing. xD

I have been trying to get ppl to do that for a while, but you can see how well that has worked :\

So you don't like the order of the list? care to elaborate?

I foresee arguments about the "lower" tier order from a few ppl at least

Actually, looking at the list, I generally like it. A lot. The only thing I don't like is Pit. I'd put him at the bottom of the tier he's on. That's about it. xD

 

[Gingerr]

I JUST edited my post, guys, good lord! I said my bad! I'm sorry!

Also, there isn't much of a GG tier discussion to be had, the tier list is, for the most part, set in stone already.

Not that it matters, because the game is so balanced, even the worst of match ups can be won by those that it isn't in favor of :] What a good game!

 

[fkacyan]

I JUST edited my post, guys, good lord! I said my bad! I'm sorry!

Also, there isn't much of a GG tier discussion to be had, the tier list is, for the most part, set in stone already.

Not that it matters, because the game is so balanced, even the worst of match ups can be won by those that it isn't in favor of :] What a good game!

I love watching Bridget combos. They're so sexy. Unlike Bridget, who, to my great disappointment early on playing GG, was a man.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I JUST edited my post, guys, good lord! I said my bad! I'm sorry!

Also, there isn't much of a GG tier discussion to be had, the tier list is, for the most part, set in stone already.

Not that it matters, because the game is so balanced, even the worst of match ups can be won by those that it isn't in favor of :] What a good game!

It's alright, Gingerr. That was OUR attempt at nipping things in the bud before **** got REALLY whack. I dole out a personal apology for my involvement.

As for GG...

*melts.* I love that game but I am far from qualified to talk about it.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ShadowLink84]

I love watching Bridget combos. They're so sexy. Unlike Bridget, who, to my great disappointment early on playing GG, was a man.

YOU TOO!?

Ah I woulda cried if I could.

 

[Gingerr]

Why are all of the top tier characters in GG manly EXCEPT Testament?
Man wears a skirt.
Discuss.

 

[ShadowLink84]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feWFRzHVf9A


Testament is clearly a dude though, unlike Bridget.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Why are all of the top tier characters in GG manly EXCEPT Testament?
Man wears a skirt.
Discuss.

>____>

I think she's on to something.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

I have nothing against people who use high tier characters, I just don't like being just another snake, MK or G&W. I like being a unique character. I know I'm a skilled player and I want to spend my time playing as a character that is unique, like Ivysaur, rather than a stale, overused character like MK.

 

[Gingerr]

I'm not saying he isn't clearly a dude, but...
A skirt? Really? Come on, Testament. Man up.
?_?
You're surrounded by men like Eddie and Slayer, and you wanna wear a skirt.
Sigh.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Maybe the creators of Guilty Gear are just really into manly people?

Wait but wasn't Ky S tier at some point? He doesn't look exceptionally manly.

 

[metalmonstar]

I know you are longhorn NSS. I have seen you on Gamefaqs. I see you are unrestricted. I haven't seen you on the SFR though. So are you going to post that new tier list.

Yes I was being sarcastic about the ease of use. I was totally serious about everyone maining Yoshi.

I noticed that Sethlon won a tournament that 3000 entered. 3000 only came in fifth though. I haven't really seen them do anything lately.

What is with Pika's low tournament results?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I'm not saying he isn't clearly a dude, but...
A skirt? Really? Come on, Testament. Man up.
?_?
You're surrounded by men like Eddie and Slayer, and you wanna wear a skirt.
Sigh.

I can't really say that Eddie is that much more manly than Testament. In fact, I think the mother****er transcends gender conventions due to a whacked out symbiote jacking what is little more than a corpse.

>___>

Now Slayer is a ****ing MAN'S MAN. Guy has the freakin' pimp walk, with the arms outstretched and a smug expression. He even blocks with the smoke from his pipe!

Smooth Criminal

 

[Grunt]

That nun chick is a guy?
WTF

 

[ShadowLink84]

I noticed that Sethlon won a tournament that 3000 entered. 3000 only came in fifth though. I haven't really seen them do anything lately.

What is with Pika's low tournament results?

The video I posted in which 3000 beat Sethon is where 3000 went on to win the tournament.
I am unsure about hatSethlon or 3000 have been doing as of late.
most likely similar t my situation, they just have little ability to go out to tournaments.

 

[Gingerr]

S: Testament, Eddie, Slayer
A: Baiken, Potemkin, Jam, May, Millia
B: Axl, A.B.A, Zappa, Robo-Ky, Order-Sol, Faust, Venom
C: Sol, Ky, Dizzy, Chipp, I-no
D: Anji, Bridget, Johnny

Copied and pasted straight from Dustloop.com.

 

[payasofobia]

A bad character can only go so far.

Good characters can go farther.

The fact that this game is imbalanced is why your argument does not work.
If this ere Guilty Gear I would agree, but the imbalance in Brawl is very present.

A ganondorf will never be capable of beating a Snake that has similar skill.

But what if that player that three months ago was the only snake user that used him competitively wouldn't have discovered those creative ways of using his moves?

What if three months ago ganondorf mainers began using him in such an unorthodox and awesome way that he began winning tournaments?

What if that random player that began spamming arrows with pit, instead used his aerials most of the time?

what if three months ago people began using their characters offensivelly, instead of playing defensivelly?

I'll tell you what would have happened, the way people play the game would be MUCH different than how we play it right now, and characters we consider bad could have been godly

As I said, the way players use each character's potential really affects the character's performance, and along with that, the way other characters are played, and how good or bad they are considered.

 

[Blackbelt]

But what if that player that three months ago was the only snake user that used him competitively wouldn't have discovered those creative ways of using his moves?

What if three months ago ganondorf mainers began using him in such an unorthodox and awesome way that he began winning tournaments?

What if that random player that began spamming arrows with pit, instead used his aerials most of the time?

what if three months ago people began using their characters offensivelly, instead of playing defensivelly?

I'll tell you what would have happened, the way people play the game would be MUCH different than how we play it right now, and characters we consider bad could have been godly

As I said, the way players use each character's potential really affects the character's performance, and along with that, the way other characters are played, and how good or bad they are considered.

What if, what if, what if.


we could what if all day, and not get anywhere.

What ifing is a waste of time and energy.

We could deal with could, should, and if.


But most people would rather deal with is.

 

[Gingerr]

Spot dodge is broken.

 

[gantrain05]

What if, what if, what if.


we could what if all day, and not get anywhere.

What ifing is a waste of time and energy.

We could deal with could, should, and if.


But most people would rather deal with is.

but what if he really has a valid point here?

as i recall, when brawl was released everyone regarded snake as slow and useless and that sonic was waaaay too cheap, look how things have changed.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

Brawl is still way to young to count any character out of it's potential. There are still plenty of ATs to be found and there is plenty of time to find them.

 

[Blackbelt]

but what if he really has a valid point here?

as i recall, when brawl was released everyone regarded snake as slow and useless and that sonic was waaaay too cheap, look how things have changed.

If it's true, than he would be able to prove it.


The fact is, he can't.

 

[Grunt]

but what If

Jesus Christ!!

sonic was cheap because of his Final smash. other than that, i never remember him being cheap.

 

[Morrigan]

I follow Corey's logic all the way. I have posted in this thread many times already saying that I wish G&W were made bottom tier because he was my main for a long time. I switched from him awhile ago because I personally don't like being hated for the characters I play. I now main as PT and am hoping he never moves up the tier list.

I have to say that's quite stupid.

 

[salaboB]

but what if he really has a valid point here?

as i recall, when brawl was released everyone regarded snake as slow and useless and that sonic was waaaay too cheap, look how things have changed.

And it would have ended up like this eventually anyway, as people would have sooner or later tried being defensive and found it won -- which is what you try your hardest to do at tournaments.

We'll have to see if anyone comes up with a reason to go back to the more offensive route, given the current defensive understandings.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

I have to say that's quite stupid.

What's stupid about wanting to be unique in character choice?

 

[ShadowLink84]

But what if that player that three months ago was the only snake user that used him competitively wouldn't have discovered those creative ways of using his moves?

Actually everything is inevitable, things will be found out.

What if three months ago ganondorf mainers began using him in such an unorthodox and awesome way that he began winning tournaments?

At which point it wouldn't be unorthodox and people would understand the style and learn of a way to counter it.
Frankly saying the surprise factor is enough to win simply isn't enough.
Yes I can surprise an MK with a campy Sonic but the MK will figure a way around it.
The inherent disadvantages do NOT disappear.

Ganondorf will still be slow as a snail.

what if

No what ifs, ebcause this is the land of reality not theory.
Even if =all that you said occurred things inevitably find their way to the way they are now.
People would realize defensive play>offensive play.

The japanese brawlers tend to be more offensive but it turns out defensive play is much better.

I'll tell you what would have happened, the way people play the game would be MUCH different than how we play it right now, and characters we consider bad could have been godly

Not they wouldn't, cause theirinherent disadvantages would SITLL be there.
before a character is considered godly they must show a great amount of potential. Something MK and Snake both fulfilled.

That and their tourney results have backed this fact.

As I said, the way players use each character's potential really affects the character's performance, and along with that, the way other characters are played, and how good or bad they are considered.

Not really, a bad character is still a bad character.
If I pit a SNake against a Ganondorf who do you think would win?
Snake hands down.
Why?
because the snake user has a character that is just that much better.


What if you instead replace Snake with MK?
Same thing.

Those two characters have much better actual potential than Ganondorf does, Ganondorf is still a BAD character no matter how you look at it.


Gantrain no one thought Sonic was cheap.
Everyone was bemoaning the fact and saying sonic sux blah blah blah.
Otherwise I wouldn't have to be correcting people 90% of the freaking time when they mention Sonic.

 

[Morrigan]

What's stupid about wanting to be unique in character choice?

There are plenty of people that think the same way as you do, I don't really know if that's something REALLY unique.

If you like a character just use it. Don't let a tier-list or whatever make you change your decision. If other people "pick on you" because of the character you like just don't listen to them.

At least you are lucky that the character you like is high-tier. :embarrass
Just look at me, lol.

 

[adumbrodeus]

But what if that player that three months ago was the only snake user that used him competitively wouldn't have discovered those creative ways of using his moves?

Snake wouldn't be top tier. At least not until those things were discovered, if that ever occurred.

What if three months ago ganondorf mainers began using him in such an unorthodox and awesome way that he began winning tournaments?

Nothing in our current discoveries allows him to play like that, he just doesn't have the specs to do it therefore.

If we find some ATs that allow it, that's a different story. It would also make me very happy.

What if that random player that began spamming arrows with pit, instead used his aerials most of the time?

He would lose more, arrow-spamming pit is stronger the aerial spamming pit. Then another pit would notice arrows are strong and use them.

what if three months ago people began using their characters offensivelly, instead of playing defensivelly?

The first player that started playing defensively that had a reasonable level of skill would win everything for a while and everyone would switch to defense.

Brawl's engine favors defense, that's just the way it is.

I'll tell you what would have happened, the way people play the game would be MUCH different than how we play it right now, and characters we consider bad could have been godly

For some, not all. Some characters are undoubtedly dependant on AT discoveries.

But besides that, people can tell when moves are inherently better, people could tell that shielding and other defensive maneuvers are incredibly strong in Brawl just by using them, and since they're in the instruction booklet you can't expect people to not notice these things.

Same with Pit's arrows, it's a default move, you can't expect people to not pick up on that.

As I said, the way players use each character's potential really affects the character's performance, and along with that, the way other characters are played, and how good or bad they are considered.

True, but the power of the default moveset is often what decides their power, that and early ATs, like snakedashing.

Except when an AT smashes this dynamic, the general make-up of the tiers are nearly inevitable. Nothing will change the fact that MK's dtilt outranges Marth by a few pixels, thus making it an advantageous match-up for him. Technical details like that are set in stone.

Ultimately, so are the possible ATs, but unfortunately, we can never guarantee everything is discovered.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Anyone else bothered by the fact that MK and G&W can counter a roll dodge by doing another D smash?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Anyone else bothered by the fact that MK and G&W can counter a roll dodge by doing another D smash?

In general d-smashes tend to be built to punish dodge-rolls, I use them to counter dodgerollers all the time, so no.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Actually I made an error and confused the two, I meant a spot dodge.
I've actually managed to get hit out of a spot dodge by MK's 2nd Dsmash.

 

[Zazabar]

its a same sonic isn't that good. =(

 

[ShadowLink84]

Point being?
No one has said he is a great character, but that he isn't as bad as most people think.

 

[DanGR]

MK punishes characters for using attacks, regardless of afterlag. I'd be willing to bet that he has priority over life. Now tell me that's not broken.

 

[Grunt]

I'd be willing to bet that he has priority over life. Now tell me that's not broken.

S-S-S-SIGNATURE!
totally.

 

[Dpete]

Wait, isn't this a tier list discussion thread?

Lets turn this back to tier discussion by posting a tier list to play with

Top: Snake, MK
High: DDD, GaW, Marth, Falco, ROB, Wario
Upper: Lucario, Olimar, DK, Wolf, Pit, ICs, Pikachu, TL, Kirby, Fox
Lower: Diddy, ZSS, Zelda, Luigi, Ness, Sonic, Peach, Sheik, Mario, Lucas
Low: Ike, PT, Bowser, Ganon, Samus, Link
Bottom: Jiggs, Yoshi, CF

I really like this list. The only thing you might reconsider is Zelda's placement. Though she doesn't have the tourney results, you gave Toon Link and Pikachu the benefit of the doubt, so you should probably give it to her too. I could see her right above Kirby, and maybe move Fox to the top of the Lower tier.

Also, I'm sure you'll get some hate for the low placement of Ike. I think switching him with Mario might be an option, but I'm really unsure.

 

[doctorjuice]

Back on the discussion of that one guy's "what if" post:
Now I know these assumptions aren't likely to happen but you guys are looking at it the wrong way. Now let's say what if again. What if those things would've happened? Well we'd be playing a very different brawl correct? Really what the post is saying is that anything is possible and anything can happen at this point in time. We could have a guy who manages to play an aggressive style with ganon and maybe utilizing some AT turns him into a completely different character. Could happen with any character. People could start turning to the more offensive side because an offensive player may have won a big tournament. Brawl could change to an offensive game rather than a defensive game.

Right now what you're doing is basing your logic off of the facts we already know. What the post meant was there are fact we DON'T know that could change the game as we know it. There could also be a shift in style that could change the game as we know it. At this point anything can happen, what the post meant was keep that in mind and don't get your mind set that this is how brawl is and always will be.

 

[powell651234]

Isn't ZSS continually being overlooked...the potential of her aerials is limitless.

 

[CyanCyde]

I agree with powell651234. ZSS has two good spikes, three fairly strong aerials with little lag, and several ways to get an enemy airborne from the ground. Her huge regular jumps, DownB (and the sex kick), and her UpB allow her to edgeguard aggressively, as well. Her SideB auto-sweetspots, can be thrown from a SH, has very nice range, and has a disjointed hitbox, to boot.