You know its not often but I actually get excited during debates.
*cackles evily and slaps his hands together* LET US BEGIN THE DEBATE!
Okay I'll stop that now.
I'm not saying Olimar is BAD, hell, Icekid is my friend, solid Olimar main, WON Hard Knocks with Olimar only, but it's tough watching Icekid struggle now because Olimar isn't as crazy as he was when the game first came out. He blew minds then, but now people are starting to figure him out, and the novelty of it is wearing off.
Of course however despite this Olimar has shown himself to be a strong contender., not many characters can approach him safely and not ,many can keep him off the edge very easily.
The few that do tend to be his worst matchups liek ROB, MK or towards the nuetral end like Sonic, Wolf and so on and so forth.
While Olimar surely isn't as pwnsome as he appeared when we first obtained the game, what has been found for Olimar has pushed towards Olimar being on the high tier list.
Simply because not many characters have the tools to get close and even if they do. Olimar can fend them off. He can ack up damage very quickly as well.
However, Sonic's easily gimped upB and lack of kill moves is a problem for him.
Wait what?
Are you serious?
Easily gimped ^B?
So someone who has dodge frames?
Can increase the horizontal distance on his recovery is easily gimped?
Not to mention the fact he has spinshotting and his homing attack to increase his distance?
My friend we must play since I really want to see you try to gimp my Sonic. Hell I want you to try it with Ike if its so easily gimpable.
He can rack up damage quickly (assuming the person playing is smart), but the inability to kill will always be a problem.
Look at MK.
Lack of killing moves but he still gets them due to being able to rack up damage.
Sonic is capable of racking up damage and with his many cancels he can force an opponent to make a mistake, and stutter step an Fsmash and kill them.
Not to mention the setups he has from his springs and other moves for early Uair kills.
Even when he doens't go for a Uair kill getting Baired at such a height either means you're dead, or you are stuck in the air where Sonic has the advantage.
I have never played a Sonic where I haven't been able to punish nearly everything he does.
Wait what?
Sonic is actually very hard to punish because while he does have some moves thata re below average in speed, his other moves are quite safe or stay out too long or simply take him too far away. Or simply put because he can cancel **** near everything he uses while approaching so you cannot punish something that hasn't occurred.
In fact trying to do so gets you a nice 20% for your error.
Sonic's all about rolling; anyone who knows how to punish a scrub player that rolls a lot, should be able to play a Sonic, no problem.
So basically you're saying that when the Sonic user is a scrub, you'll be able to punish him.
Sonic is not about rolling at all.
His whole game is actually about canceling.
ASC~shield cancel~grab
Dash~sideB cancel~ grab>~~~ you can pivot this one so if you want you can overshoot past your opponent, turn around and grab them without sliding at all.
ASC~Footstool.~aerial. I like this one alot. Basically if your opponent shields they get their shield gets eaten and if they try to rol away you can continue the spincharge and hit them or if they spotdodge they get hit or if they get hit you Uair them.
Dash~hyphen smash
Dash~shield grab (slides a good amount and increases grab range.
Dash~Dodge
Dash~roll dodge
Lots of feinting
springs~Dair (canceled)
Spring ~Dair (non canceled)
Spring~ nothing
Spring~edge
He's out prioritized a lot of the time,
Usmash is not overprioritized much due to disjointed hitboxes.
Fair has good priority.
Bair breaks a flying Kong when spaced.
Uair breaks everyone's Dair except maybe Links.
and I have yet to see anyone have a problem with a Sonic player that went further than "he is really, really, annoying to fight against." However, annoyance doesn't win matches, unless you make them furious to the point that they can't even play anymore. Also, possible.
Really?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=6hb4XIYmUHw - Mr. 3000 (Sonic) vs Sethlon (Falco)
Game set.
Play less scrubs.
Link, is bad. Projectiles are great and all, but from my experience playing against them, we can either 1) play the projectile game all day because hey, mine is better, or 2) you can approach me and we can play the close encounter game, in which case, my EVERYTHING is better.
Woahthat is actually untrue. Link's projectile game is actually pretty good.
Be more specific on whom you are talking about projectile wise please.
Close up yeah Link has issues which is why he strives to remain at mid to Far range. Up close yeah he really cannot do much which is where he has problems the most.
At the very best Link is gonna be low tier.
Ganon, oh Ganon...this argument is going to be hard to explain unless anyone here plays a 2D fighter like Guilty Gear,
I have so do not worry your pretty little head.
Ganon has potential solely due to the fact that he has numerous moves that cause knock down.
In any other fighter, knock down is extremely important, and it's no different for smash. Knock down gives you tons and tons of options, especially if you can react quickly. Snake's best throw by far, is his down throw. Why? Because it just lays you down and gives the Snake player plenty of options, while you have very little. Afro Thundah uses it constantly, and all he has the option of 1) predicting which way you're going to roll, and punishing, 2) shielding your get up attack and punishing, 3) watching you get up and not do anything, and punishing, and 4) merely watching which way you end up rolling, and just turn and punish immediately. To be honest, I don't even know if Afro himself understands how incredible it is, but he keeps doing it, so more power to him.
Sop basically because of the options he has when the opponent is knocked down he has potential?
Guilty Gear this is not.
Let me explain why.
Ganondorf has a poor approach game. He gets camped quite easily, is slow and can be punished on a large amount of his moves. His heavy eight and above average size means its easier to rack up damage on him.
yes he does have a great advantage when the opponent is knocked don but he has little to no methods of doing so. He is forced to approach all the time and has little means of gaining that knock down advantage.
Guilty Gear this is not because in Guilty Gear, you ahve many more options to knock down the opponent.
ganon however can only force a knockdown with his flamechoke and his spikes (which can be teched)
Snake on the other hand baits. The opponent has no choice but to approach him. This is why getting the opponent on the ground for Snake is much more easy for Snake than ganon.
he can do it more easily and thus benefits from it more often.
If Ganon has a method to speed up his approach I would be more inclined to agree with you, but until he has something like L canceling or wavedashing Ganon cannot benefit from knocking down the opponent.
Mainly because the opportunity for a knock down is not going to come up very often.
Anyways, Ganon lacks a lot of things, yes, but he also gains a lot by being given so many moves that cause knock down. Have I seen any Ganon players that absolutely solidify this opinion of mine? No. It's merely something myself and a friend were brainstorming. Potential is nothing until it's tapped. Until then, Ganon will remain low/bottom (whichever he is) tier.
Except as I stated earlier it is because they do not have the means.
Go and ask the current Ganon mainers.
While Ganon has a good number of moves that can knock the opponent down (most of which can be teched), the opportunity does not come up very often.
One can say yes he has potential, but there is a difference between simply having potential,
and having actual potential.
Yeah Marth can smack Link's projectiles away in melee, but in truth he doesn't. Simply ebcause that potential is unable to be realized due to ho the opponent plays or the inherent disadvantages that occur in trying to realize that potential.
Don't worry I won't say you are wrong.
however I will say anecdotal evidence does not suffice.
That and you are having a really good Falcon play an idiot player. THat does not help your argument.
Especially hen you have many other people whose argument differs with you as well as the results in tournaments.
NOt including the many videos that show why Falcon has a tough time.
He is a good character in theory, but he is a melee character in Brawl.
Which is really not a good mix.
@Griffard: Do not quote wall of texts and then respond with a small paragraph. Its annoying and its stupid.
