Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Fair
Bair
Forward B

It's also possible to chain Uairs to get someone off the top on low level ceilings. So... six. Jerk

Those Uairs to Mach Tornado/Shuttle Loop chains are ****ing ridiculous to pull of if your not facing a big character like DK or Ganon >_>

 

[Kiwikomix]

I'm having trouble understanding why link keeps getting put in the bottom tier below people like sonic and ganondorf.

All the sonic fans should just accept that sonic is terrible and stop making him mid tier.

Oof. Please don't start this debate up again, it's just now winding down.

Ganandorf is just terrible so why is link (who is in my opinion one of the most technical characters in the game) below this *******.

He's not THAT bad. Check Ankoku's character rankings list, he's beating Link. Don't pull the popularity card on me because neither character is that popular.

 

[ShadowLink84]

1st: It was a JOKE LIST. Sonic isn't going to be bottom and this shouldn't be debated, let alone comparing him to MK when that's just ridiculous. The only people that still think Sonic is bottom are people who are far behind the times and just listen to what the majority says.

2nd: MK may be short on kill moves, but it doesn't matter. He gets kills anyway and you all know it.

3rd: Can one of the Sonic defenders post a vid of a good Sonic outperforming a higher character? I can't find anything good on Youtube.

1: indeed bilubon got many people on that one.


2. No I am not debating that I made myself clear earlier.

3. Yes search mr 3000. It shows him beating a Falco.
There is a video of IOZ beating marth

 

[Deleted member]

Obviously you are stupid for this is not what I mean.

How many kill moves does MK have?

let us count
Fsmash
Dsmash
^B
3 kill moves.
That is lacking.
LRN2READ

Umm if ur sayin that he lacks kill moves, that's kinda implying that hes bad at killing. Why else would u say it, just a random fact that he only has 3 moves that actually directily kill people offstage at decent percents?? The fact is if MK only had one of these moves hed have an enormously easier time killing than sonic does (this is killing as you describe it). I dunno, dont wanna start an big argument, just my reasoning for assuming u meant how well they can kill =/

And yes, Mr 3000 is freakin amazing, definately shows some sonic potential, or maybe hes just rly good.

 

[Swordplay]

who cares is he lacks kill moves.

In the end you really only need 2-3 good ones and metaknight has those.

With his combos hes a freaking unstoppable machine

 

[Grunt]

With his combos hes a freaking unstoppable machine

that's why they made snake. Snake! SNAAAAAAAAAAAAKE!

 

[Iwan]

that's why they made snake. Snake! SNAAAAAAAAAAAAKE!

hahaha....how many people actually got this post.

hilarious.

 

[Ratherion]

Badger Badger Badger?

 

[Grunt]

Badger Badger Badger?

Dawg u be trippin on shroomz.

 

[jesterlolz]

Dedede looks sorta like a badger also.

Conspiracy theory, I think so...

 

[hizzlum]

3 King Dedede (22 top8, 29 top4, 15 wins, 173 pts)
4 Marth (34 top8, 32 top4, 4 wins, 133 pts)
5 Wario (9 top8, 13 top4, 15 wins, 118.5 pts) <6>
6 Mr. Game & Watch (32 top8, 18 top4, 8 wins, 110 pts) <5>
7 ROB (27 top8, 23 top4, 5 wins, 107.5 pts)

B Rank
8 Donkey Kong (12 top8, 15 top4, 7 wins, 86 pts) <10>
9 Wolf (17 top8, 17 top4, 3 wins, 74.5 pts) <8>
10 Pikachu (5 top8, 15 top4, 5 wins, 72.5 pts) <9>
11 Pit (10 top8, 12 top4, 4 wins, 61 pts) <13>
12 Falco (16 top8, 11 top4, 4 wins, 61 pts) <11>

C Rank
13 Lucario (6 top8, 8 top4, 6 wins, 57 pts) <18>

you were saying? TL isnt even near where lucario is at the moment. if lucario hasnt done well in tourneys, the ONLY characters who have done well are dedede, wario, G&W snake and MK. if his match ups were anywhere near as poor as you believe them to, he would have a similar score to wolf or marth, a lot of high placements but gets wasted by the usual MK, snake, dedede, G&W in finals

In my opinion I don't think TL is in that league, I was just referncing the "high"tiers created by knowledgebale people. Lucario's match-ups are not as spectalcular as say marth who has great advantages on some characters and advanteage on most(a few neutrals with other high placing characters) and is only soft sountered by Snake,ROB, and Falco. Marth also does well in tournies, if a character is getting tons of top 8/top 4 placings, he is only getting beaten by a handful of the brawl characters(I'd say five at most Snake,MK,DDD,G&W and wario). The match up chart shows that Lucario doesent have easy matches against most of the cast, unlike MK,marth, Snake,G&W, and Falco.
I would suggest Lucario is put in the upper tier, even the top of the upper tier or bottom of the high if Azen dominates a big tourney like EVO or MLG

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

You guys don't know about old internet memes?

http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/badgers/

 

[Rhykune]

Well, I am a bit of a noob, and people are probably going to shrug this off, but here is my best shot.


Top Tier:
~ Snake - Has won the most tournaments. Intense mind games, easily the best atm.
~ Meta Knight - Racks up damage quick and can kill easily too.
~ Game & Watch - Good at just about everything, bucket is great. Buffed the most from melee.

High Tier:
~ Olimar - Only thing lacking his is recovery. Also check this out.
~ King DeDeDe - Side B is great, can chaingrab, great recovery, and isn't all slow.
~ Marth - Great spacing game with good range and a very powerful tip. Broken Fair.
~ Wolf - Forward smash is one of the best, spammable laser and a reflector.
~ Falco - Very spammable SHDL, amazing air game and not a bad ground game.
~ Toon Link - Very similar to Falco, his Bair is great.
~ Wario - Amazing air game, good ground game, great recovery and fart.
~ Pit - Gay arrows and side B.
~ Diddy Kong - Great air game, and bananas.
~ Kirby - The first big suprise on my tier list, Kirby honestly could be even higher. Amazing aerials, can gimp very easily, combos out of grabs, very good at racking up damage and KO'ing and intense recovery. Only downside I can think of is light weight.

Middle Tier:
~ Pokemon Trainer - The other big suprise on my tier list, usually at the top of low, but should be way higher. Has almost no bad matchups, is heavy, light and middle, plus all three of the pokemon could be effective on their own.
~ Pikachu - A good Pikachu is one of the most annoying things out there. QAC is great.
~ Zelda - Din's fire plus amazing tilts and smashes, can get juggled easily though.
~ ROB - Combos and projectiles.
~ Ice Climbers - Can pretty much not be grabbed, and can do amazing things with the grab, plus attacks that deal huge damage. coughdsmashcough
~ Luigi - Great air game. Good recovery. Good character. Could rise.
~ Ness - OMG higher than Lucas what a noob. Seriously though, tell me one thing that Lucas has over Ness.
~ Charizard - Best of the PT pokemon IMO because it is a tank. Rock Smash is beastly, so is flamethrower and has huge killing potential.
~ ZSS - Good but hard to get that kill.
~ Donkey Kong - Amazing Bair, his big frame can be abused though.
~ Lucas - Worse ness
~ Fox - Nerfed a ton
~ Ivysaur - Bullet seed is arguable the best move in the game, a great projectile and very easy to kill with. Probably should be higher, but the recovery is arguable the worst.
~ Shiek - My main in melee, but is nerfed now.
~ Ike - Can be a beast if used correctly, but is so punishable.
~ Squirtle - Great air game but dies a lot and is fairly hard to kill with.

Low Tier:
~ Peach - This was a bit of a guess actually.
~ Sonic - Can not sweetspot the edge, aerials lack priority but is fairly fast.
~ Mario - In a game where average isnt good enough.
~ Bowser - Buffed a fair bit, actually usable.
~ Ganondorf - Can tech chase but is very slow.

Bottom Tier:
~ Link - Toon Link overshadows it and uhh i dunno.
~ Yoshi - Not very good.
~ Captain Falcon - Bleh

 

[Yukiwarashi]

...Where's Jigglypuff?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Umm if ur sayin that he lacks kill moves, that's kinda implying that hes bad at killing.

No it doesn't. Don't substitute your own ideas as my own thank you.
There is no insinuation of any kind.

Why else would u say it, just a random fact that he only has 3 moves that actually directily kill people offstage at decent percents??

Perhaps if you read what I was quoting you would have understood better.
The quote said Sonic lacks kill moves.
As such I countered saying MK lacked kill moves as well.
Regardless I am not gonna argue what I mean or do not mean, its a waste of time as you said.

Look up IOZ and Lucky, they show Sonic's potential as well.

 

[hizzlum]

Holy crap, ever heard of deviation? Not everyone falls into the freakin' norm. OBVIOUSLY Japan is going to have players that don't follow the trends and play characters outside of the tiers



Everyone is a little bit racist(cookies to those who get the reference!); especially when you use such a harsh and rigid definition. Racist is a harsh word that I feel implies superiority. I never implied anything of the sort.

All i wanted to hear was that the Japanese play smash like everyother group of people and that there is not a difference if you live in america or Japan when playing smash, beacuse there isn't. All that happened is that a group of japanese smashers(aka a group like the SBR) set the metagame of the country standard with speedy characters. And thus the the comptetive smashers listened and some of them changed there styles to adapt to the metagame standards, as people in the US and Europe do sometimes unconciously and sometimes knownigly. The SBR set another standrd of high level play that americans reffered to when trying to emulate their own skills. if thats what you're trying to say, which i think you are,its all cool then.
That is the definition of racism, so regardless if its harsh and rigid thats the definition at dictionay.com. Metagame Standards created in Japna and America differed thats why you believe we should not use their tier lists as fact beacuse it applies to a different standard of smash, is that what you were looking for?
I know you were not being racist, but you used the wrong wording by stating difference between Americans and the Japanese in smash not set standards by top pros, which is a whole different thing.

 

[864today]

whoops, did not mean to post

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

Perhaps if you read what I was quoting you would have understood better.
The quote said Sonic lacks kill moves.
As such I countered saying MK lacked kill moves as well.
Regardless I am not gonna argue what I mean or do not mean, its a waste of time as you said.

You would have made everyone arguing against you look like morons, including me, if you had actually linked to the post in question.

 

[menofuntall]

Lucas has a faster and much easier to land-for-the-kill Forward Smash.
Lucas's PK Fire is a ridiculously spammable projectile.
Lucas's recovery is better.
Lucas's PSI Magnet comes out faster, turns off faster, and has a hitbox upon deactivation.
Lucas only gets deathgrabbed by Marth, wheras Ness is by Marth and Charizard.

Yeah, I could go more in-depth (or link you to a certain comparison topic), but whatever.

 

[MuBa]

You kinda forgot Lucario on that list.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You would have made everyone arguing against you look like morons, including me, if you had actually linked to the post in question.

If everyone is quoting what I am saying would they not be capable of, you know, reading what I quoted?

Oh and just to help out here is the quote I responded to

Sonic only has 2 kill moves, his F smash and bair. Also, Sonic has no projectiles(though his speed lets him compensate for that) and his priority is lame. His spin dashes get cut off by Yoshi's egg roll and Jiggly's Rollout. I would place Sonic bottom of the lower tier instead of bottom tier. considering his speed, recovery, and combo potential.

BTW, Pokemon trainer will be on one tier because you cannot play as just one forever like Zero Suit and Sheik.

I also find it funny that people focused on that one statement rather than read the entire post I had made.
*claps* Smashboards has done me proud.

 

[adumbrodeus]

All i wanted to hear was that the Japanese play smash like everyother group of people and that there is not a difference if you live in america or Japan when playing smash, beacuse there isn't. All that happened is that a group of japanese smashers(aka a group like the SBR) set the metagame of the country standard with speedy characters. And thus the the comptetive smashers listened and some of them changed there styles to adapt to the metagame standards, as people in the US and Europe do sometimes unconciously and sometimes knownigly. The SBR set another standrd of high level play that americans reffered to when trying to emulate their own skills. if thats what you're trying to say, which i think you are,its all cool then.
That is the definition of racism, so regardless if its harsh and rigid thats the definition at dictionay.com. Metagame Standards created in Japna and America differed thats why you believe we should not use their tier lists as fact beacuse it applies to a different standard of smash, is that what you were looking for?
I know you were not being racist, but you used the wrong wording by stating difference between Americans and the Japanese in smash not set standards by top pros, which is a whole different thing.

Actually, no.

That's not racism, because there never was the implication that race determines culture. Smash is merely part of the culture, and differences in the culture crop up for any number of reasons, from geography, to raw chance, to natural resources.


Regardless, under the definition of racism you posit (which is a correct definition btw), what exactly is wrong with racism? There are genetic differences between different races. It's like .001% but it does equate to some noticeable differences such as Pacific Islanders tending to be shorter on average then the average European, and that the Irish have lighter skin on average then the average African.

Nothing wrong with that, but racism carries this connotation of "ungoodness" due to it's other definitions, namely the ones involving one or both of two things:

1. Superiority of one race over another (which is ridiculous).
2. Hatred of one or more races.

These are the most common usages, so there's really no point to even using "racism" to mean your definition. While it is not bad, and still technically a definition, the term itself has been tainted and it's rare to hear it referenced to in a neutral light. Let that definition die so the innocent variations will not be confused with the guilty ones in the future.

Call it what it is in common usage, anthropology and genetics.

Umm if ur sayin that he lacks kill moves, that's kinda implying that hes bad at killing. Why else would u say it, just a random fact that he only has 3 moves that actually directily kill people offstage at decent percents?? The fact is if MK only had one of these moves hed have an enormously easier time killing than sonic does (this is killing as you describe it). I dunno, dont wanna start an big argument, just my reasoning for assuming u meant how well they can kill =/

And yes, Mr 3000 is freakin amazing, definately shows some sonic potential, or maybe hes just rly good.

Huh? Since when?

Lacking kill moves means a char has few moves that can kill from the middle of the stage (at reasonable percents).

Being good at killing means a char has easy and effective methods of killing.

Even if he/she/it/potato only has a few kill moves if those moves are good the char is good at killing, or if the char can easily get an opponent off-stage and is good at killing off-stage, or both, then the char is good at killing.

Having few kill moves=/= being bad at killing.

Dawg u be trippin on shroomz.

Badger badger badger...

 

[ShadowLink84]

MUSHROOM MUSHROOM!


We need someone to do snake...

 

[Swordplay]

you want racism?

Cracker Launcher..

That is all I need to say

 

[Matador]

Even if he/she/it/potato only has a few kill moves if those moves are good the char is good at killing, or if the char can easily get an opponent off-stage and is good at killing off-stage, or both, then the char is good at killing.

That made me lol at the randomness.

I don't see this tier list creation getting anywhere, so I'd like to suggest taking it one tier at a time, starting with top tier since that's what most people agree on, then working our way down. Maybe then we can work our way down section by section while defending/attacking each character's position until we reach the much disputed bottom tier.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Toptier doesn't need work and if it does not much.
I suggest we work with mid tier/low tier/bottom/.


high tier is pretty well defined and there iwll be changed but not drastic ones.
mid tier,low tier, bototm tier have always been muddy so we should work on them.

 

[adumbrodeus]

That made me lol at the randomness.

That was for sheik.

A while back we (the melee sheik players) decided that the official pro-noun for Sheik was he/she/it/potato because nobody could agree on his/her/it's/potato's gender.

Hoping somebody would get the reference actually.

I don't see this tier list creation getting anywhere, so I'd like to suggest taking it one tier at a time, starting with top tier since that's what most people agree on, then working our way down. Maybe then we can work our way down section by section while defending/attacking each character's position until we reach the much disputed bottom tier.

Well, that's why I asked the thread creator to give us a central tier list to debate off, because whatever the case is, we REALLY need a starting point, and people just spouting tier lists randomly doesn't help.

Your suggestion would work as well, but we need it to go on the first post as we make progress, otherwise, we can't reference to it easily and it will be lost, especially to the people who randomly come in.

 

[Matador]

Toptier doesn't need work and if it does not much.
I suggest we work with mid tier/low tier/bottom/.


high tier is pretty well defined and there iwll be changed but not drastic ones.
mid tier,low tier, bototm tier have always been muddy so we should work on them.

Still, top is undisputed. MK > Snake has pretty much been in every tier list. They've also been the only 2 on the vast majority as well, so this tier is pretty much settled. But there are very few identical high tiers even though they're comprised of the same characters. Each character's placement should be discussed until unanimously decided upon methinks.

Edit:@ Adumbrodeus- Unless AlphaZealot comes back, we're screwed either way really.

 

[The Real Inferno]

I think we can all agree on top tier


Azen
Final Destination

Azen is filled with misconceptions. Some have this idea that Azen is a player and not a character. Then there are those that think Azen is the random character selection. Azen is more than that though. Azen is being good with all characters and winning with them but unlike the random button you stick with one character throughout the entire tournament. So say the little icon in your character profile says you main ROB. You go to a tournament and everyone thinks that you will use ROB, but instead you use Ike the whole time and you win. Then some guy says, "WTF your ROB mainer." You reply, "No, I play Azen." Then next week you come in using Marth this time and everyone expects you to play Ike like last week. Then they are all like "WTF you play Ike." Thus you reply, "No, I play Azen."

Now choosing your character of the day is sometimes a difficult task. Some people can just feel a certain character on a certain day. "Yeah today feels like Sonic. Others choose by a day system in which each day represents a character. You know Mario, Monday, Toon Link Tuesday, Wario Wednesday and so on. Others just use random number generators to help them decide.

Next we have Final Destination. It is certainly pretty impressive character. No real flaws and it can gimp almost any character even if they are at zero percent. That surely is an amazing feat.

That. Was so ****ing funny.

 

[The Real Inferno]

~ Ness - OMG higher than Lucas what a noob. Seriously though, tell me one thing that Lucas has over Ness.

Erm...Better PK Thunder? O.o At least Lucas can make it move through people to still use on himself unlike Ness who gets gimped by someone jumping in front of it, giving themselves their jump back in the process to not die either. Also Lucas heals better, damages with his heal move, reflects projectiles with a much faster side smash and...you know what you only asked for one thing.

 

[Monshou_no_Nazo]

You know what they say, "Azen mains nobody. Every character mains Azen."

And Final Destination is not bad, but I would drop it down to high tier, because Frigate Orpheon is the ultimate in gimping characters' recoveries with its vast array of options, and can even intercept your recovery. Final Destination will never pull off the latter.

Well, that's why I asked the thread creator to give us a central tier list to debate off, because whatever the case is, we REALLY need a starting point, and people just spouting tier lists randomly doesn't help.

I agree with this. It ticks me off when somebody actually makes a very good tier list, then two pages later somebody posts a bad one, and everybody rips that one apart instead of focusing on the good tier list.

 

[The Real Inferno]

You know what they say, "Azen mains nobody. Every character mains Azen."

And Final Destination is not bad, but I would drop it down to high tier, because Frigate Orpheon is the ultimate in gimping characters' recoveries with its vast array of options, and can even intercept your recovery. Final Destination will never pull off the latter.

I agree with this. It ticks me off when somebody actually makes a very good tier list, then two pages later somebody posts a bad one, and everybody rips that one apart instead of focusing on the good tier list.

I believe mines still within ripping into distance like 8...or 10...pages back now

 

[Browny]

Still, top is undisputed. MK > Snake has pretty much been in every tier list.

um what

which thread are you reading? the vast majority of peoples tier lists have snake above MK.

and people, dont act like lucas' recovery is ungimpable. anyone quick enough in the air to manage to jump into ness' pk thunder would probably be better off just finishing wih a f-air or b-air or whatever, lucas is put in the same defensless state during th pk thunder. and if you miss attempting to gimp ness when he PKT2's, all it takes is about 50% an youre gone. lucas' PKT2 barely has any KO potential unless he hits you right at the tip, which is impossible, since its so easy to DI through his.

 

[Adapt]

I think matador just screwed up his greater than sign... cuz the top 2 have been undisputed for a long time

How about we debate the bottom tier first, because there is more agreement in that area. Since the middle tiers are all completely different we should leave it for last

 

[Dantarion]

and people, dont act like lucas' recovery is ungimpable....

I agree. Since all the characters in brawl have an easy time jumping off the stage, knocking lucas/ness further away, and getting back easy, getting hit/reflecting the PKT isn't as good as a trick as it was in melee.

If they are within recovering range, simply fair, etc, them away, then they will be too far away to grab the edge during the attack, and will fall though the air, setting them up for an edgehog, or charged fsmash/whatever you want.

Lucas's recovery is better, but its still easily gimped.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

said the marth mainer, but besides that, any other problems

Have you every heard of Marths infinite grab on Lucas and Ness?

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Okay, I've updated my list please tell me what you think!

A (U) beside a name means they could possibly move up on the list.
A (D) beside a name means they could possibly move down on the list.
An (N) beside the name means they could possibly move up or down on the list.

Top Tiers:

Snake (D)
Meta Knight (D)
Mr. Game & Watch (D)
Marth (N)

High Tiers:

Falco (U)
Toon Link (D)
R.O.B (U)
Pit (N)
Wolf (D)
King Dedede (N)

Middle Tiers:

Wario (D)
Ice Climbers (N)
Pikachu (D)
Captain Olimar (U)
Lucario (N)
Donkey Kong (N)
Zelda (N)
Ike (D)
Fox (U)
Zero Suit Samus (U)
Squirtle (D)
Lucas (D)
Diddy Kong (N)
Ness (D)
Luigi (N)
Sonic (U)
Kirby (N)
Sheik (U)
Link (U)

Low Tiers:

Samus (N)
Ivysaur (N)
Peach (D)
Mario (U)
Charizard (U)
Bowser (N)

Bottom Tiers:

Jigglypuff (U)
Yoshi (N)
Captain Falcon (U)
Ganondorf (U)

Tell me who should be moved AND GIVE REASONS!!!

 

[Tr3ndkill]

Okay, I've updated my list please tell me what you think!

A (U) beside a name means they could possibly move up on the list.
A (D) beside a name means they could possibly move down on the list.
An (N) beside the name means they could possibly move up or down on the list.

Top Tiers:

Snake (D)
Meta Knight (D)
Mr. Game & Watch (D)
Marth (N)

High Tiers:

Falco (U)
Toon Link (D)
R.O.B (U)
Pit (N)
Wolf (D)
King Dedede (N)

Middle Tiers:

Wario (D)
Ice Climbers (N)
Pikachu (D)
Captain Olimar (U)
Lucario (N)
Donkey Kong (N)
Zelda (N)
Ike (D)
Fox (U)
Zero Suit Samus (U)
Squirtle (D)
Lucas (D)
Diddy Kong (N)
Ness (D)
Luigi (N)
Sonic (U)
Kirby (N)
Sheik (U)
Link (U)

Low Tiers:

Samus (N)
Ivysaur (N)
Peach (D)
Mario (U)
Charizard (U)
Bowser (N)

Bottom Tiers:

Jigglypuff (U)
Yoshi (N)
Captain Falcon (U)
Ganondorf (U)

Tell me who should be moved AND GIVE REASONS!!!

Ok, I disagree with Olimar being a mid-tier character. He has amazing aerial potential with some of his combos. Then he has the whistle shield which can prevent ALL knockback if used correctly (I once played an Olimar who whistle shielded all of Snake's missiles during his final smash). Olimar is also capable of dealing ungodly amounts of damage in little to no time at all. All he does is stick you with a pikmin, grab you with his extremely long range grab, hit you a few times, then tosses you off the stage.

Also, Ike is a true weapon when in the right hands. His fair has so much killing potential. All his specials are amazing but he lacks a half-decent recovery. For that reason, he should stay where he is.

And why is Wolf not a top tier character? He has a spammable laser, amazing smashes (the side A pisses SO many people off because of its almost unfair range), and he has very good aerials. His down smash is also very effective if u can time it right. Finally, he has an amazing bair that lots of Wolf players have based their entire game on. Wolf=Top-tier imo

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Thanks for comment, I think Olimar could more up as well, but ChozenOne was whining about him. Wolf is good on the ground, but when it comes to the air he isn't that great, I can see Ton Link being moved below him, but I think the rest of the guys above him are better.

 

[The_Dyne]

Ganon should move up some, because as far as I know he's been winning more in tourneys than others in the low tier.