Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Sinistar]

The whole height tier list style is probally going to be changed.

I'm seriously wondering how hard this is going to be.

Might as well judge by playing level.

 

[Sheen]

I really like that tier list but falco needs to be put on if not above fox's level. Just my opinion, reasonings a few pages back.

 

[Sinistar]

Honestly, playing level shouldn't even count anymore.

It should be entirely based on things such as Recovery, Falling Speed, Priority, Quick or Strong Smashes, Combos Fast, Good Gimper..


Things like that.

 

[Sheen]

Well, the problem there is you dont know the potential of all the characters until you see them played well...I could say Gannon was better than marth if I played a beatly Gannon and was retarted with Marth...so yes it does matter on player level.

 

[smashbot226]

Space Animals, Marth, and possibly ZSS are Top Tier.

Shiek, Diddy, Dedede, and Toon Link are High Tier.

Yoshi, Pikachu, Wario, and Ganondorf are Bottom Tier.



Olimar is too restrained for anything above Mid Tier, but PKMN Trainer has 3 different chances for Top Tierdom.

Ivysaur, Charizard, and Squirtle should be separated, if we're separating Samus and ZSS, or Zelda and Shiek...

 

[h3gi]

Well, the problem there is you dont know the potential of all the characters until you see them played well...I could say Gannon was better than marth if I played a beatly Gannon and was retarted with Marth...so yes it does matter on player level.

That's not the point of the tier list. The tier list designates the order of probability of winning when the character is played to the fullest potential. Player skill has nothing to do with it. This is why the tier list changes constantly; newer techniques are being discovered every day.

Player skill determines the match turnout, not the tier list.

 

[sFoster]

zelda is not low tier anymore, now she's like upper mid thanks to din's fire.

at least.
if I'm not mistaken her jump kicks can do up to 20% damage, dmash is one of the quickest hits in the game, and her uair can kill as low as 80%. They also buffed her teleport to do damage on arrival.

 

[Me Myself and Jy]

I'm really bored so I guess it's time for my own tier list. As my disclaimer, I have not played through
every character but as a whole, my crew has gone through every character in the game. After seeing some lists, I'm in awe with Snake. Honestly, my crew finds that he's garbage but it might just be that we haven't run into any great Snake players yet. Tell me what you think. I know there could be some rearranging within each section but whatever. Too lazy to actually think about stuff.

Top:
Metaknight
Marth
Wolf

High:
King Dedede
Zero Suit Samus
Olimar
Pit
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Falco
R.O.B.

Middle:
Pikachu
Lucas
Ike
Fox
Luigi
Lucario
Sheik
Ivysaur
Game and Watch
Ness
Snake
Kirby
Squirtle
Samus
Mario

Low:
Peach
Link
Wario
Yoshi
Bowser
Captain Falcon
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Charizard


Bottom:
Donkey Kong
Ganondorf

 

[itsthebigfoot]

I'm really bored so I guess it's time for my own tier list. As my disclaimer, I have not played through
every character but as a whole, my crew has gone through every character in the game. After seeing some lists, I'm in awe with Snake. Honestly, my crew finds that he's garbage but it might just be that we haven't run into any great Snake players yet. Tell me what you think. I know there could be some rearranging within each section but whatever. Too lazy to actually think about stuff.

Top:
Metaknight
Marth
Wolf

High:
King Dedede
Zero Suit Samus
Olimar
Pit
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Falco
R.O.B.

Middle:
Pikachu
Lucas
Ike
Fox
Luigi
Lucario
Sheik
Ivysaur
Game and Watch
Ness
Snake
Kirby
Squirtle
Samus
Mario

Low:
Peach
Link
Wario
Yoshi
Bowser
Captain Falcon
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Charizard


Bottom:
Donkey Kong
Ganondorf

It looks like your crew hasnt run into that many players in general, DK got buffed, and he was low-to-mid last game. Wario is a beast and there is no way G&W is below high tier with all his buffs

 

[BulgyMilk]

Also Charizard is at least mid (rock smash is ridiculous) Lucas Ike and Pikachu are all high tier as well, from what I've seen at least.

 

[G-Beast]

i cant understand how bowser is the low tier either, he got buffed insanely from melee to brawl... all of his attacks are fast and hit with a big thunk...

 

[Fletch]

i cant understand how bowser is the low tier either, he got buffed insanely from melee to brawl... all of his attacks are fast and hit with a big thunk...

Because without l-canceling his aerials are so slow, and he doesn't have a good camp game. I'd say he's slightly better, but not by much.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Lol Jigglypuff dosn't suck that bad. Don't underestimate her.

 

[TechnoMonster]

Man you guys aren't listening to a word I'm saying.

You need to examine characters and feel out how they can play at a high level before you post. All characters have moves, and many characters have many good moves, but some characters, like Snake and Olimar, have standout move sets that do great things against the entire cast.

 

[Browny]

i know tier lists arent based off a simple X>Y, Y>Z therefore X>Z style of approach but i think it should count for something. whenever i play as sonic I have no problems destroying people like ike, dedede, marth and other supposedly higher tier characters but i just cant beat olimar, bowser or lucario for the life of me. Sonic has bad match ups (ok MK and pit are just flat out murder) but i think his good matchups should count for something. it just doesnt seem to be a case of equal skill level will determine tier positions when it comes to sonic, i cant beat my brother whos only played it for a day when he picks lucario :O but easily account for level 9 CPU's playing as many high tier characters

tl;dr
i dont think you should base characters positions on a tier list depending on how they fare vs specific abilities (projectile camping for example) but give some thought to thier match ups against everyone rated in each respective tier category.

 

[Ishbu2k]

My meta-tiers, from compiling sentiment across posts and threads, along with my own opinion of course

TOP: Widely acknowledged to have strong movesets with solid approach and camp options
Marth - Fair, counter, tip power
Toon Link - Projectile game, fast and powerful enough
Snake - Diverse and strong moves, hard to kill, great specials
Meta-Knight - Best 'ticking' character, will def win matches

HIGH: Solid characters, top potential and no lower than upper mid
Falco - Probably best spacie, lasers, combos
Captain Olimar - Projectile game, fast and long range, gimpable and a little lacking in power
Pit - Projectile, good priority and range
Diddy Kong - Banana game for approach and camp, good edgeguard
Wolf - Projectile, fsmash, little slow
R.O.B. - Projectile, good edgeguard, dsmash
Mr. Game and Watch - Solid all around moves with multiple kill moves

MUDDLED-MIDDLE: Some of them could move up, some may move down. But these seem to be the middle 50% to me. In relative order on potential to move up.
Lucas
Ice Climbers
Zelda
Fox
King Dedede
Zero Suit Samus
Lucario
Squirtle
Ivysaur
Sheik
Pikachu
Samus
Mario
Ike
Charizard
Peach
Kirby
Sonic

AVERAGE AT BEST: These may not be the worst but have little chance of making the top third.
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Ness
Wario
Jigglypuff
Link
Yoshi
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon

 

[Deleted member]

Lol Jigglypuff dosn't suck that bad. Don't underestimate her.

Your sig.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

zelda is not low tier anymore, now she's like upper mid thanks to din's fire.

someone else that fills like me lolz i like playing bowser so he's c\going to be top tier lolz

 

[Reykjavic]

In no particular order w/in tiers.


Top: (at least high tier)
Metaknight
Marth
Snake
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Wolf

High: (at least upper mid)
Lucas
King Dedede
Zero Suit Samus
Olimar
Pit
Zelda

Upper Mid:
Falco
Fox
R.O.B.
Pikachu
Ike
Luigi
Lucario

Mid:
Sheik
Ivysaur
Game and Watch
Ness
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Squirtle
Samus
Mario
Link
Wario

Low:
Peach
Yoshi
Bowser
Captain Falcon
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Charizard


Bottom:
Donkey Kong
Ganondorf

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

How about people discuss the merits of characters instead of placing them on meaningless lists?

Also, you all need to realize that a character being buffed from Melee doesn't mean they're move up on the tier lists once those are developed, it's a different game. A character may have received immense "buffs" in the Melee-Brawl transition and still end up being competitive trash in this game. I think the problem is people are seeing this as if the buffs took place via, say, a Nintendo-sanctioned Melee patch. Of course Bowser has a good chance of moving up on the tier list if he had his overall better moves supplanting his lesser ones from Melee IF those changes took place within the game of Melee itself. It doesn't work that way when it's a new game.

Characters people will feel embarrassed about doubting when all is said and done (a.k.a. my high/top tier predictions and justification):

R.O.B. - Two of the best projectiles in the game, has the ability to make pretty much all characters HAVE to come to him, solid kill moves (bair,. nair, fsmash, usmash, bthrow, gyromite), amazing priority moves (ftilt, dsmash, fair), the ability to never die with being of the heavier sort and having arguably the best recovery in the game, quick and useful jabs... and did I mention he has two of the best projectiles in this game? His laser is ********, you can reach anyone with it at nearly any time barring the presence of a wall, and gyromite is fast, poweful, and versatile. You can use it to camp, and once it's spinning it's basically a free-standing hitbox you can use to create traps and force predictability. You can glide toss with it too, for what it's worth. I predict R.O.B. will be top tier.\

heh, after that, I don't feel like typing any more. Maybe later.

 

[tw1n]

Man I've seen more people have their first posts on here than any other page. The only down side is that most of these opinionated tier lists lack true proof and definition. No one person can say what the tier list will be. Who knows how it will turn out. The game still has alot to be discovered. I think its great that so many people are voicing their opinions but be rational.

Saying you KNOW bowser will be top tier just because you play him makes zero sense. Saying any character you like has to be the best is just ignorant. I'm sorry, not every character can be the best. It sucks I know. But also to slam characters down to the bottom because you haven't played with them, or have but just didn't know how to use them is stupid.

Instead of people listing where every character "should be", why don't they say these few characters should probably go here due to these logical and rational reasons.

Edit: Ha ha Pope, you beat me too it. While I was typing you post a similar thing. I'm just glad one person I've seen on here post logical statements about a character. R.O.B. is great. I'm not going to enjoy facing him in combat =D

 

[adumbrodeus]

TL, Marth, and Wolf are overrated.

TL has crazy priority and all his moves have disjointed hitboxes, and he has useful specials.

Same with Marth.


Wolf has extremely fast high priority moves, and of course, useful specials.

They're solid, not overrated.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

Man I've seen more people have their first posts on here than any other page. The only down side is that most of these opinionated tier lists lack true proof and definition. No one person can say what the tier list will be. Who knows how it will turn out. The game still has alot to be discovered. I think its great that so many people are voicing their opinions but be rational.

Saying you KNOW bowser will be top tier just because you play him makes zero sense. Saying any character you like has to be the best is just ignorant. I'm sorry, not every character can be the best. It sucks I know. But also to slam characters down to the bottom because you haven't played with them, or have but just didn't know how to use them is stupid.

Instead of people listing where every character "should be", why don't they say these few characters should probably go here due to these logical and rational reasons.

Edit: Ha ha Pope, you beat me too it. While I was typing you post a similar thing. I'm just glad one person I've seen on here post logical statements about a character. R.O.B. is great. I'm not going to enjoy facing him in combat =D

i was using critisism lolz wow you guys are funny read back a couple pages lol the thread should be closed.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Wolf is not overrated..

Just look at tournament placing in densely populated areas of smashers.. the top 5 on the new tier list are pretty clear...

MK
Wolf
DDD
Olimar
ROB

you might even throw in Lucario, Fox, and Marth...

but any other talking will get you no where. Consistant placings don't lie.

and if you really want to go into depth..

Zelda, and Snake may need to be right there w/ Lucario, Fox, and Marth.

but im relativilty sure MK and Marth will go very quickly down on the tier list once the game is around for more than 6 months... clearly the reason that so many ppl are flocking to the use of Marth is b/c he plays quite similarly to the "old" melee marth... and MK is just an easy character to use w/ NeutralB spamming, and UpB kills @ low percents...

Good Day Sirs.

 

[Anklez15]

for top tier i have to say
Marth
Toon Link
Olimar
Wolf
i say this because all of these characters can completely turn around a match at any moment

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

for top tier i have to say
Marth
Toon Link
Olimar
Wolf
i say this because all of these characters can completely turn around a match at any moment

Whilst no other characters can, because completely turning around a match at any moment is a quality exclusive to those four characters you listed.

 

[tw1n]

for top tier i have to say
Marth
Toon Link
Olimar
Wolf
i say this because all of these characters can completely turn around a match at any moment

As well as any other character who can get a good quick kill/gimp. Marth has priority and range, Olimar has range... we need more reasonings for those characters to be up there.

Chosen, I agree with you on the Marth factor. Can't wait to see how tournament play goes a year from now. Should be alot of fun

 

[Nybb]

Why do people separate the Pokemon Trainer? There's no way you can play only one of them in a match (unless you're playing less than two-minute matches) with the stamina as a factor. Zamus and Shiek, on the other hand, can be played entirely on their own.

And I'd also just like to bring up that everyone cannot be high tier/top tier. A list gets posted in here, then a whole bunch of people say Character X, Y, Z, A, B, C, D, E ,and F all deserve to be higher. Well, you can only bump up so many characters before the list becomes worthless. Obviously you want your favourites to do well, but not everybody can be the best. Somebody has to be at the bottom of the list.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Top

Marth
Lucas
Pit
Toon Link
Diddy Kong

Middle

Metaknight
Falco
Zelda
Snake
Zero Suit Samus
Wolf
Fox
Kirby
Luigi
Mario
Sonic
Dedede
R.O.B.
Pikachu
Charizard
Peach
Lucario
Sheik
Ivysaur
Olimar
Ness
Jigglypuff
Ike
Ice Climbers
Wario
C. Falcon
G&W
Samus
DK
Squirtle

Bottom

Yoshi
Bowser
Link
Ganon

I thought since this game is alot more balanced than Melee, that there should only be 3 tier levels. The top tier characters are the ones who would almost always win tournaments. Mid tier are the ones that will sometimes win tournaments. And bottom tier characters will never win any professional tournaments.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Wow People.. please stop putting Pit so high.

Watch a good Pit play.. the only two things he do that aren't predictable are UpB-->Arial, and SHFF arials..

He can be VERY easily gimped, and is VERY easy to kill.

Lucas can be spaced, and avoided.. and the only thing he has going for him right now is his Usmash..

Diddy is only getting alot of exposure b/c of that random Ca. guy that mains him, and made a video about "advanced techs".. but his recovery is even easier to g@y than Pit's >_>

At this point im confused as to why people even post on this topic... its not going anywhere, and no one really says anything very constructive..

THE REASON THE PROS ARE WAITING TO COMPILE A LIST FOR THE TIER WHORES IS B/C WE NEED TIME INORDER TO GAUGE TOURNAMENT PLACINGS.

Good Day Sirs.

 

[Tails the Fox]

At this point im confused as to why people even post on this topic... its not going anywhere, and no one really says anything very constructive..

THE REASON THE PROS ARE WAITING TO COMPILE A LIST FOR THE TIER WHORES IS B/C WE NEED TIME INORDER TO GAUGE TOURNAMENT PLACINGS.

Good Day Sirs.

Then why do you even bother coming to this topic?

Would you rather have the entire Tactical and character boards have the entire first page be filled with Tier topics or have it all in one topic so people can shut up and write their "Tiers"?

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Have one topic started by a mod in each character specfic.. b/c i know for a fact that not all the "good" players that should be responding to this topic are currently posters here..

and to be more honest.. i think we all know that nothing we say right here matters b/c all of the talking/debating is going on in the Smash Back Room.

So go back to your individual character specific rooms where you'll actually do something constructive.. instead of posting here, and johning about every1's specific tier list and how so-and-so should be higher/lower...

IT DOESN'T MATTER.

And neither do anything except tournament results.

Good Day Sirs.

 

[2DLogic]

i was using critisism lolz wow you guys are funny read back a couple pages lol the thread should be closed.

It's sarcasm, and that was pretty poor usage of it.

How about people discuss the merits of characters instead of placing them on meaningless lists?

Also, you all need to realize that a character being buffed from Melee doesn't mean they're move up on the tier lists once those are developed, it's a different game. A character may have received immense "buffs" in the Melee-Brawl transition and still end up being competitive trash in this game. I think the problem is people are seeing this as if the buffs took place via, say, a Nintendo-sanctioned Melee patch. Of course Bowser has a good chance of moving up on the tier list if he had his overall better moves supplanting his lesser ones from Melee IF those changes took place within the game of Melee itself. It doesn't work that way when it's a new game..

Well said. Good thoughts on R.O.B. too, I know I drastically underestimated him until I recently saw him played very well.

IT DOESN'T MATTER.
And neither do anything except tournament results.

Just because one character often does well in tournament results does not mean that they are high ranking in the tiers; in fact it could mean anything from that character is played a lot more than others to the player who places high with said character simply has a better understanding of the game than his/her opponents.
Tournament results usually reflect accurate tier lists, they do not determine them.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Hmm.. i disagree... b/c wasn't the main reason that Fox/Falco were put into a "God Tier" of their own b/c they continued to wreck the tournament scene by themselves.. and then based on tourney results Zelda moved down [when she was originally high tier when melee first came out.. and the same could be said for Link] and G&W moved up after seeing DireVulan use him to his full potential...

Tournaments mean everything. Metagame is less important in comparison to overall results.

 

[Yoshi_FTW]

Ok lets all wait at LEAST a year before you tards even try making tiers because this whole thread is really sad.

 

[MASAHIROx]

ch0zen0ne is a ****ing noob

look at his join date and post count.

i dont listen to nubs.

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

Anyone that uses Toon Link has a small brain... and that is a scientific fact.

 

[2DLogic]

Hmm.. i disagree... b/c wasn't the main reason that Fox/Falco were put into a "God Tier" of their own b/c they continued to wreck the tournament scene by themselves.. and then based on tourney results Zelda moved down [when she was originally high tier when melee first came out.. and the same could be said for Link] and G&W moved up after seeing DireVulan use him to his full potential...

I'd account for all the Fox/Falco and Zelda/Link examples by saying that as time went on those character's potential or lack there-of was more fully understood and then tournament results began to reflect that. The list may have been changed after the fact, but there was a reason behind them dominating the tournament scene.

What I think a lot of people aren't really understanding is that tiers aren't made, per-say, they're found. Generally speaking, characters aren't intentionally designed in a way to be better or worse than one another, but the tiers of characters are already in the game... ie. a character isn't made any better or worse depending on where they're placed in a list, it's about discovering where the characters naturally fit into this order that matters. This natural order can really only be found once all of the character's full potential (both generally and in various match-ups) is realized.

The simple fact that there hasn't been enough time to discover every character's full potential (the continuation of new techniques being discovered is all the proof you need of that) is why I agree so strongly with PopeOfChiliTown's saying that, for now at least, it's much more conductive to discuss the merits and weaknesses of characters in order to get an idea of the tiers than it is to place them on arbitrary lists, or in this case wait for tournament results.

 

[ToP CaT]

, it's much more conductive to discuss the merits and weaknesses of characters in order to get an idea of the tiers than it is to place them on arbitrary lists, or in this case wait for tournament results.

very true....

 

[Ch0zen0ne]

I'd account for all the Fox/Falco and Zelda/Link examples by saying that as time went on those character's potential or lack there-of was more fully understood and then tournament results began to reflect that. The list may have been changed after the fact, but there was a reason behind them dominating the tournament scene.

Perhaps because these toons were dominating due to their ability to react to almost any situation, where as characters like Zelda/Link are forced into spamming and camping move/mindsets... this is also the reason right now that Pit is doing so well in the tourney scene.. b/c turtling is a basic instinct of players when introduced to a new game.

Also.. you are also assuming that most of the players on SWF are very well written, and actually have constructive things to add to this topic/debate...

Much like the early United States system of having an electoral college b/c the common man cannot be trusted w/ important descisions like who will be their ruler... the common SWF user has not be shown the full tournament scene nor are they skilled enough at conveying their thoughts on the boards that most of their arguments are a waste of time.. or are misinformed.

Leave it to the SBR.. im sure they'll come up with something..

Good Day Sir.