Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[A2ZOMG]

There's too many "WTF were you thinking when you wrote that" lists for me to argue with.

but basically, can someone back up putting fox or sonic anywhere higher than mid? and can anyone back up putting any of the characters I placed as top below high?

here's my list again, in case you missed it.

Top:
Luigi
Marth
Diddy
Meta knight
Pit
Olimar
PT
Zelda
DDD
Toon link
Wolf

High:
Peach
Zamus
Lucas
Ike
R.O.B
Snake
Mario
Wario
GaW
Ice Climbers
Falco
Lucario
Pikachu
Kirby

Mid:
Ness
Bowser
Fox
Sonic
Samus
Link
Shiek

Low:
Falcon
Gannon
Yoshi
DK
Jigglypuff

I didn't go as far as in-tier order, just the basics "X tier"

I'll give my criticism. =P

Why is Jigglypuff so low? Did something about her become infinitely worse? I really don't know much about her.

Why is Peach really high? Just tell me, because other pros generally don't seem to agree with that one if she can't combo, has low kill strength, and overall when things like her Down-B, double jump, recovery, and D-smash have been noticeably nerfed.

G&W is top tier IMO. B-air is the broken approach. All of his aerials have a unique property, and they are easy to connect with and hit fairly hard. He has a techchase throw which has many immediate combo options (Jab, D-tilt, D-smash, Judgement). His Smashes are overpowered (Kill at %s like Ike does). The Bucket is really gay against projectile spammers. His recovery is top tier, and he juggles quite well because of his Up-B.

Zelda isn't top tier. Her moveset is indeed good, but very difficult to connect with (if she whiffs, low hitstun will get her punished indeed), unlike G&W's moveset, which too has moves that kill at very low %s and has amazing range. Move Zelda to high tier. G&W to top tier. The only thing Zelda beats G&W out in is projectile spamming really, which is good, but G&W happens to have ways of countering.

Otherwise everything else sounds consistent with what I'm hearing.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

good man, stop puting her mid shes second level high tier

Zelda should be up there because the din's fire is a new spaming, mindgame keep away,camping tool of destruction, up tilt has ubber knock aswell true her foward air was kinda nerfed they made up for it easily

shes has her flaws like all chars but she should be in the higher tiers.


Zelda isn't top tier. Her moveset is indeed good, but very difficult to connect with (if she whiffs, low hitstun will get her punished indeed), unlike G&W's moveset, which too has moves that kill at very low %s and has amazing range. Move Zelda to high tier. G&W to top tier. The only thing Zelda beats G&W out in is projectile spamming really, which is good, but G&W happens to have ways of countering.
She doesn't have to connect with here attcks because she can control the fielde with her fire a horribally powerful move.

 

[BigRick]

yea wario is the char that interests me the most so far

my wario observations/predictions:

his aerial mobility makes his aerials very safe against a blocking opponent... his air movement also gives him a chance to gimp ppl off the stage with chained multiple aerials (ala Doc or Jiggs)

his fsmash looks like one of the best ko move in the whole game... lots of knockback, super armor, good startup and okay range makes it a really scary move, with fsmash OOS he doesn't have any trouble koing ppl

bite helps defensively against projectiles and aerial bite provides mixup opportunities

his main issue is his crappy range on his moves... APPROACHING will be near impossible against sum1 that can counterhit with fast, safe moves which is a huge negative. Wario players will need to be smart and abuse the mobility to intercept aerials before they come out (vs Ike?) or find openings

wario waft kills at low percentages when fully charged which is a big thing since were probably going to play 3-stock matches so it can be a gamebreaker like Jiggs old school rest... also the moves charges automatically in 2min so a wario player could camp for it... Also seen it used in a combo! (something like fair to waft)

what else... he has meh throws, but he can still techchase out of his dthrow

recovery is not top tier, crappy if he can't pull out the bike

so IMO wario will develop as a very strong defensive character that will go for a gimp when he gets the chance, other than that you just camp and safely rack up damage while trying to score a low % ko... hes the new doc so not top but a tier under

 

[PIMPSLAP]

i main wario and he has severe mindgames big fun pwns we will have to prove he's top tier.

 

[D20]

I think Pikachu should be higher than many people are giving him credit for. Here's why...

He has chain grabs on at least Fox, Falco, CF, and Ike with his dthrow, and at least DDD with his fthrow. His fair and nair autocancel with short hops and his bair autocancels with a full hop. His uair actually combos into other uairs, fairs, bairs, and most importantly nair (which can KO at higher percents). Falling uairs can even combo into utilts or usmashes. Usmash out of sheild ***** and his thunder comes out much faster than in Melee... usmash --> thunder can KO at very low percents. Although Pikachu is lacking in edgegaurding at the moment, he can ledge-stall with thunder (which is pretty brutal). Finally, Pikachu can spam his neutral B move much more effectively. Retreating full hop neutral B is a nightmare for characters with no range.

 

[Deo_Smash]

Never beleived in Teir list, it is truly an opponiated thing so there is no truth to it.

 

[Darth Ace]

I still don't understand! What in Sensei Sakurai's name is a tier and why would they be in this game?

 

[highandmightyjoe]

I have only played with a few characters very deeply so far but from what I have seen DeDeDe seems to be very good. He has the chainthrow everyone knows about, decent range, can kill at fairly low percents, and his heavy weight coupled with good recovery keep him alive for a long time. I wasn't really expecting much from him when I bought the game, but he has surprised me.

I used to main Ganon in Melee and now I hate him, low tier for sure. I'm really to mad about it to even bother explaining.

Zero Suit Samus seems good. She has probably one of the best recoveries in the game, is fairly fast, has good range and an alright projectile. I'd say she's upper-mid or lower-high tier.

MetaKnight was originally going to be my main but I had to ditch him. I have pretty much the same problem everyone else does with him. No kill moves. Some people have said though that he doesn't need them because he is a good edgeguarder but I have to disagree. There are alot more characters in Brawl with good recovery than there where in melee. It seems to me that against most of the better characters, if they aren't killed right away, you aren't going to stop them from getting back(exceptions of course).

So those are pretty much the only ones I have played enough to know much about. Feel free to disagree or fill me in on something I'm wrong about.

 

[Darth Ace]

Oh wait, does tier mean who would make the bestmain? Because I always figured the best main for you should just be your favorites. IMO I suppose...

 

[PIMPSLAP]

I still don't understand! What in Sensei Sakurai's name is a tier and why would they be in this game?

a tier list is not even plausible because tier list are made be tournament winnings these determines who overall wins the most tournys and that makes the list.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

Oh wait, does tier mean who would make the bestmain? Because I always figured the best main for you should just be your favorites. IMO I suppose...

I agree that you should just play the character you like, but I had to quit Ganon at least for a little while just because I am upset with him for the time being. For the record Mewtwo was my secondary, if that tells you anything.

 

[armlx]

ArmLx, do you actually know what you're talking about? Your tier list is made up of fan-based opinions with nothing to back it up.

Zelda less powerful? Luigi didn't change? Ness doesn't have a finisher?

Do some research before posting please.

Yes, Zelda is less powerful. Just because she can Din's Fire people doesn't mean she is good.

Like I said, I don't have enough experience with Luigi to say, thats just an estimate based on 5 or so matches.

I also never said Ness has no finisher, simply that Lucas does everything Ness does better execpt maybe stort distance grabs and stopping recoveries with PK thunder.

 

[Demolisho]

I really don't agree with your tier in any magical way arm.

Toon Link should be on top, he has a baton.

 

[adumbrodeus]

As good as Marth is, I have seen amazing Marths destroyed by amazing Ike players...

Your point?

I've seen foxes destroyed by amazing bowser players in melee.

Tiers don't take into account personal ability.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

Yes, Zelda is less powerful. Just because she can Din's Fire people doesn't mean she is good.

Like I said, I don't have enough experience with Luigi to say, thats just an estimate based on 5 or so matches.

I also never said Ness has no finisher, simply that Lucas does everything Ness does better execpt maybe stort distance grabs and stopping recoveries with PK thunder.

guy play with people that are good and tell me din's fire is not awesoem because it is let me get your wii number so i can play you...

 

[Laijin]

This is ********.
Tiers don't even matter in brawl. Everyone is good.
Edit: In this case, it seems most of your arguments are just based on who is easiest to play as since the game just came out.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

This is ********.
Tiers don't even matter in brawl. Everyone is good.
Edit: In this case, it seems most of your arguments are just based on who is easiest to play as since the game just came out.

i agree. it is way to early where just guessing thats what i assumed.

 

[that1marthguy]

I think Ike is horribly top tier... considering he does evenly well against every character. That combined with his amazingly easy kill conditions makes him top material.

I think that out of all the SF characters, Wolf is probably the best... but they all are pretty bad in this game.

Anyway, randomly suggested tier list.

TOP
Ike
Meta

HIGH
Marth
Pit
ZSS
Ganon
Lucario

MID
(not sure who goes here)

LOW
Olimar
Sheik
Snake

BOTTOM
Samus (man she's horrible now)


I'll revise that later today most likely... I just can't really place people unless I have enough experience with them.

 

[susu_atari]

We need two Brawl tier lists, really.

We should have a seperate one to take into account character's capabilities in the Final Smash game.

 

[NJzFinest]

I think Ike is horribly top tier... considering he does evenly well against every character. That combined with his amazingly easy kill conditions makes him top material.

I think that out of all the SF characters, Wolf is probably the best... but they all are pretty bad in this game.

Anyway, randomly suggested tier list.

TOP
Ike
Meta

HIGH
Marth
Pit
ZSS
Ganon
Lucario

MID
(not sure who goes here)

LOW
Olimar
Sheik
Snake

BOTTOM
Samus (man she's horrible now)


I'll revise that later today most likely... I just can't really place people unless I have enough experience with them.

Samus definately isn't horrible. Her grabble cancel and homing missle spam is pretty solid.
Also, she's still just as good at sheild camping with up B.

Then again...I'm wasting my time replying to you, just because you have Olimar so low. That alone made your list terrible.
Prolly Sheik too.

 

[highandmightyjoe]

I like most of that list, except I really can't see Metaknight being all that good right now. However, I think he is one of those kind of characters that will just take some time for people to figure out and then maybe we'll see. But for now I don't like him. I also think that DeDeDe really needs some recognition. I can't say enough how much he impressed me. I thought they where stupid for putting him in and I thought he would suck, but man I was way wrong.

As far as Ike goes I did spend some time with him and he does seem very powerful, with some good approaches, and a good recovery. But how does he do against characters with projectiles. For me he seemed to slow to get inside with. But then I really didn't spend alot of time with him.

And I really don't see Ganon being good at all. I seem to see some people putting him in low tier and others going with upper-mid. Could someone who likes him please explain to me why you think he is good.

 

[BigRick]

I'll revise that later today most likely... I just can't really place people unless I have enough experience with them.

then just don't

 

[PIMPSLAP]

Nj your cool the old dk forums ... you like mtg?

To the tier list it is too early for a tier list the game has been out for a week just let some tournys go down then see.

(olimar is awesome)

 

[UnSaxon51]

but basically, can someone back up putting fox or sonic anywhere higher than mid? and can anyone back up putting any of the characters I placed as top below high?

Fox still has the potential to be at least high tier. His smashes are still strong and have good knockback. His recovery is still great, especially with the addition of "hovering" with Reflector. And you can still semi-spike with Shine (although most can survive at low damage now). He may have lost his top-tier throne, but he's still really good.

I agree with you on Sonic, though.

As for the rest of your list, I think you're probably pretty close for most of them. Maybe off by one section on a few.
I think you may have put Peach too high, though. I need to work with her some more, but she seems to have lost a lot of what made her amazing before.

 

[blakinola]

Can't we wait till the game has least been out over in the US for like, a month? It's waaaayyy too early. At this point, there are obviously characters that do better against other characters, but I played Ryoko's Zelda last week and it's ridiculous. I think she should be near the top, cause she's one of the few chars that can combo (gasp)

It's at the point right now that people can pick up a character and just start to own. Kind of how like Melee was when it came out 6 years ago.

Patience! jeeeeez.

 

[MASAHIROx]

after playing the game for about three weeks. this will change of course

top

marth
mk
pit

high

ike
lucas
toon link
shiek
wolf
king dedede
olimar
fox
falco

mid

rob
lucario
ice climbers
peach
diddy
ZSS
Pokemon trainer
sonic
wario
luigi
mario
jigglypuff
mr. game and watch

low

zelda
snake
samus
pikachu
CF
kirby
ness
DK

bottom

bowser
link
ganondorf
yoshi


i only took like 10 mins with this. feel free to pick it apart. im saving it and will update it in a couple months

the gaps are MUCH SMALLER in brawl

but really everyone is good except link, gannon and yoshi

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

I'm gonna have to agree with the "way too early to tell" crowd.

But why are we so eager to determine tier lists already anyway? Remember that it's the capability of the character that determines their place in the tier list: not the other way around.

 

[Ikural]

Some people are putting way too many characters in the high and top sections of thier tier lists.
There's no way that more then 3 or 4 charcters could be top, and no way that more than 5 or 6 characters can be high.

High implies that they are better than average, and in case you didn't realize, having 50% of characters in the high section implies that that is the average, in which case the high tier is actually mid, and the top tier would be split into a new high and a new top.

Just watch how many you're placing within each section, because some of these are simply illogical. Of course I exagerated those numbers a bit, but see past the exageration to the fact. I do not plan on making a tier list, because I know I'd have no idea what I'm talking about. I only have about 15 hours of gameplay of Brawl and I don't even own it.

Well, I think we should be trying to decipher a tier list right now, because it will help. Tier lists are important, and knowing about them is as important as knowing some advanced techniques. It's a very simple match-up chart of who's likely to do better. It's an important part of tournament preparation.

 

[UnSaxon51]

sorry, double post. didn't even realize it til just now.

 

[S2]

MasahiroX

I won't nitpick the whole list, but I think Zelda should be higher.

Din's fire spamming can be ridiculous, she's got a reflector, her smash attacks are powerful, and the air attacks all KO at pretty decent percentages.

Specifically, the Din's fire helps because in Melee she was hurt by her poor ability to approach characters like Marth. Due to the speed and power increase of Din's fire, she can force many characters to come to her (while using Naryu's to relfect projectile spammers like Pit).

I'm not arguing that she's going to be top tier or anything, but she's at least mid tier.

 

[SuperLink9]

Yoshi for god tier.

But seriously, ZSS and Ike are pretty **** awesome. I'll write up my thoughts on a tier list when I've played as each character. I think ZSS & Ike will be pretty high though. And Olimar and Squirtle.

 

[I.T.P]

I just feel that the game is too balanced to give such big diffrences between characters, and there are just too many good ones. but I guess you can change it a bit and say that:

Top:
1.Luigi
2.Marth
3.DDD
4.Olimar
5.PT
6.Toon link

High:
7.Meta knight
8.Diddy
9.Pit
10.Wolf
11.Zamus
12.GaW

Mid:
13.R.O.B
14.Zelda
15.Ice Climbers
16.Ike
17.Snake
18.Lucas
19.Falco
20.Mario
21.Wario
22.Peach
23.Lucario
24.Pikachu
25.Kirby

Low:
26.Sonic
27.Fox
28.Bowser
29.Ness
30.Samus
31.Link
32.Shiek

Bottom:
33.Falcon
34.Gannon
35.Yoshi
36.DK
37.Jigglypuff


Here, I ordered it inside the tiers, made the low into bottom etc', and split top to high and top.

Basically, this is my prediction.

also, I'd like to say that bottom tiers are comparable to Melees low-mid and low, low tiers are like melees mids, mids and up are like high and up in melee, and they're extremely well balanced.

 

[El Cid]

This is a pretty provocative statement....

 

[THEWIIStephen]

i think it is a little too early to forecast the tier list. So let's just wait for a couple of months.
Hell it isn't even released in europe yet

 

[THEWIIStephen]

ok ok. i just made my profile but think about it, most of us don't own the game yet

 

[I.T.P]

ok ok. i just made my profile but think about it, most of us don't own the game yet

and some of us are community managers for 30-100 approx. players, your point being?

predicting doesn't cost money, and I'm doing my best to take into consideration everything I can think of.

 

[Mercury]

top tier characters: characters that can have little difficulty versing/completely dominate most characters. when using a top tier character, most people have to resort to ATs or spamming 1 or 2 of the same attacks over and over to consider winning if they are not also top/high tier, which still doesn't always help. nobody's really "broken" yet but there are definite candidates, mostly marth, dedede and olimar.

high tier characters: characters that incidentally have specific characters that clearly put them at a disadvantage, but despite that a high tier character will do well. probably has few weaknesses, and more strengths than usual. MK (amazing combo potential but weak at the finish), Ike (opposite of MK), and other characters that nearly have the entire package will get here more likely than not.


mid tier characters: characters that have disadvantages due to enemy play styles. they struggle somewhat if the enemy understands how to combat the character, but there are multiple moves and situational strengths that keep the character here. more ATs need to be found to confirm characters here.

low tier characters: same as mid tier, except the moves that would keep a character mid tier are either predictable or not very good. also unconfirmed.

bottom: no one uses these lalalala.

 

[Pink Reaper]

ITP, I still think your being too hard on DK. I spent literally 15 hours straight playing him yesterday and from my experience he still seems viable for at least mid tier(as he WOULD be in Melee if they ever released a final tier list -.-)

His Bair is still one of the best moves in the game, as is his Uair. I've also found his Forward B to be very usable as it takes a huge chunk out of shields, 2 hits from it will destroy a shield. His edge game isn't nearly as bad as you once stated a he can easily intercept recovering opponents with his Bair, even off the stage, and still easily survive.

His recovery is a little annoying not because it lacks vertical recovery but because it has the annoying lag when you hit the ground. However the "Donkey Copter" can be used as a quick way to push away opponents who are being overly aggressive.

I have more to say, but I have to leave for work, will edit later if I remember.

 

[Ikural]

I.T.P., I find that your new tier list is much more logical in the long run. I have nothing to say about the placement of characters given my limited experience, but it's in a much more logical form now and seems altogether better.

And no, predicting doesn't cost any money whatsoever. Being involved in this thread, in fact, is a good thing, because everyone can argue points for thier characters, which everyone gets to read. It's a learning experience for some, and it carries a point for all those who are curious about the future tier list, because there are deffinant reaccurring top tiers.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I still wanna know why you have Falco so low.