ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I am guessing that the very hilt spikes while the blade spikes only when it is sweeping the ground.
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Tourneys mean alot right now. If it were that brawl was completely and utterly different like from 64 to melee I would agree, however considering Sonic is one of the many severely underplayed characters for Sonic to be 21 when there are characters who are supposed to be better than him doing worse means he does have potential.
And no I am not including march I am referencing to only recentky where his ranking is 21. I think he did worse in the spring season in terms of ranking.
I have to disagree. Snake still has an advantge because his moves are similar to marth. When Sonic approaches its somewhat risky and if he fails he is forced to start over from the beginning.
yeah once Snake is in the air he is Sonic's ***** but snake's ground game is very strong. Its similar to playing Olimar except there is no way of depriving Snake of his weapons.
No. he has no approach method for Snake and each character that has been capable of harassing snake were either capable of camping snake (olimar) or approaching him very well (Falco).
Luigi has neither.
maybe tis cause those 30 snakes never faced TL and Pikachu. Its not like the pikachu user and TL user ran into that many Snakes in their matchups. let alone the fac tthat most snakes are not very good.
They aren't candidates for top because if you look at MK and Snake, they dont have the tournament ranking nor the gameplay for top tier. they are probably high tier though.
eh, i agree with u in alot of spots, except for ness, im a lucas/ness mainer, and honestly ness is just so much better than lucas imo, the only downside being that ness can be horribly gimped off stage, but its not much of a problem if you save your 2nd jump since his DI is pretty darn good.Personal opinion and all. I may be bias, yadda yadda... you can flame, just don't scorch.
Group up PT as one character. Playing each one individually is impossible.
Olimar, Bowser, and DK are way too low. IC, Mario, Samus, and Ness should be a bit lower. Peach and Zamus deserve to be up a little higher.
...and what is up with Sonic? Bottom of Middle tier, not the top. He's okay, but lot's of characters are "okayish" in brawl.
Ice Climbers 0-death grabs and chain grabs. They only need to grab you once and you're done for. If it wasn't for being able to eliminate Nana, Ice Climbers could be in the top tierIce Climbers will never be that high. It pretains to Melee also:
You can kill Nana.
DK needs to move up to high-middle tier.
Actually almost everyone in Middle tier is in the wrong place. Luigi and Zelda belong in Mid tier.
Zelda and Luigi have too much potential to be stuck in mid tier. Zelda with her lightning kicks and Luigi with fire jump punch.
None of those characters have a fast attack that kill at low percentage anywhere.Yeah. Lots of people say that about their mains. The same can be said for Pikachu and Lucario and Toon Link and Olimar and Kirby and.....
no no no noIgnoring tournament results and judging based on what I've seen and experienced. This is how I would tier the characters
Top
Meta Knight
Snake
Upper
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Ice Climbers
High
Marth
Falco
R.O.B.
Kirby
Lucario
Toon Link
Luigi
Wario
Wolf
Zelda
Pikachu
Mid
Sonic
Fox
Squirtle
Olimar
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Diddy Kong
Sheik
Pit
Samus
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Ike
Link
Ivysaur
Low
Zero Suit Samus
Charizard
Yoshi
Peach
Captain Falcon
Bottom
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
So exactly what made Ice Climbers middle tier in Melee? They had 0-death grabs and chain grabs too, but because you could kill Nana, IC's never made it to high tier.Ice Climbers 0-death grabs and chain grabs. They only need to grab you once and you're done for. If it wasn't for being able to eliminate Nana, Ice Climbers could be in the top tier
I have to agree with Zelda being good, but she doesn't have the qualities to be high tier. Her lightning kicks may be good, but along with her other aerials they are hard to land. This makes her aerial game almost useless if you are playing against someone that knows how to avoid Zelda's attacks. Most of Zelda's smash attacks can also be smash DI'd out of, making them even less useful.Zelda and Luigi have too much potential to be stuck in mid tier. Zelda with her lightning kicks and Luigi with fire jump punch.
I'm a DK main. DK will almost never go too low to the point where he can't grab the edge. His up-b has crazy priority and if you try to approach him, expect to get spiked. Seriously, you try to edgeguard DK.Donkey Kong's vertical recovery is god awful. That costs him a lot of lives. He's a big target that can't do much when the opponent is right ontop of him.
You make a good argument. I agree that I ranked him too low.I'm a DK main. DK will almost never go too low to the point where he can't grab the edge. His up-b has crazy priority and if you try to approach him, expect to get spiked. Seriously, you try to edgeguard DK.
If your opponent is right on top of you, his grounded up-b will swat away your opponent and it is not as punishable as people may think, it also has SUPER ARMOR. If your opponent is on top of you in the air, then you can do the same thing: up-b. It does lots of damage if you sweet spot it, or you could use it to escape because it has awesome priority.
Because Olimar isn't higher?that tier list is PURE GARBAGE
Are you serious?None of those characters have a fast attack that kill at low percentage anywhere.
100%+ is not low.Are you serious?
Kirby and Pikachu's fsmashes come out quickly and kill at low percentages. Olimar has pretty much no problem killing with a Blue Pikmin bthrow. Toonie takes a while to KO, I admit, but Lucario can kill at low percentages if he's at a high one.
My response:Umm...what do you think about Metaknight and how broken everyone sees him as? There's even some people considering him getting banned. I just wanted to ask you because you were totally right when you said one time: "Snake isn't that good".
There just seems to be no solid counter for Metaknight...I've been doing better against him recently, but it's still extremely uphill.
Yeah, Metaknight is an oddity for sure. At first I thought both him and Snake would go down from being "OMG crazy good" to being "Good, but definitely beatable." Snake has gone down for sure, and people are finally starting to see what I meant when I said that he wasn't that good at all. But Metaknight... has gotten better. He's broken for sure but not broken enough to ban. He doesn't have any bad matchups right now, and his worst matchups are even.
A few characters that, IMO, can go even with MK at high levels of play: MK, Snake, Diddy, DK, Bowser, Marth, G&W, Pikachu, Kirby, Falco, Wario, Lucario, Fox (?), Zelda (??), and Olimar (???).
More may pop up down the line, and I'm sure I missed a couple. But keep in mind that the list may seem large right now, but thats only if the people using those characters are extremely knowledgeable in the matchup against MK. Otherwise, they're screwed.
Wow.. this post losesBecause Olimar isn't higher?
If you're curious why he's not higher it's because his recovery is very easy to gimp; Edge hogging is his worst enemy. Keep Olimar in the air and he can't pluck more Pikmin. His attacks can be unreliable if you don't know which color comes next and taking the time to see can cost you.
I don't main based on who I like the best, I main based on my fighting style and the potential I believe they have.But look where you put Luigi, IMO! the only reason you have him that high is because that is your favorite char.
I haven't seen anything that merits them being higher. And no, tournament results don't count. I really don't care if one person is capable of winning with them. That only tells me that he's a really good player.Peach is bareley above bottom tier? FAIL!
Zamus under Samus?l FAIL!
Well for me, a Luigi user. Not difficult at all.Do you know how extremely difficult it is to keep Olimar in the air?
leave him alone! take me instead!heres my quick tier list
the people johned about
mk
snake
high
game and watch
rob
ddd
wario
marth
wolf
diddy kong
fox
falco
upper middle
lucario
pit
oliman
peach
zelda
toon link
squirtle
middle
donkey kong
luigi
kirby
ness
lucas
pikapikaaaaa
zero suit samus
mario
lower middle
ivysaur
sheik
charizard
sonic
just bad
ike
yoshi
samus
ganondorf
jiggjigg
captain falcon
link
btw if you count zss and samus, zelda and sheik, and squirtle, ivysaur, and charizard all as one they are in order-middle, middle, higher middle
just a quick one with lots of mistakes i bet but im tired when writing this so excuse me
yeah, lets start talking bout MY LIST!
Do they airdodge? Whistle armor? N-air as you're rising?Well for me, a Luigi user. Not difficult at all.
Not true. I play with all characters. I'm always open to switching mains if I feel I'm doing better with someone else. I'm not the type of person that's like I'm maining __ and that's that's that!You are speaking from a one charcter view and hat limits your thinking so much i sort of have sympathy for you.
lol, no. Pit doesn't come close to matching Luigi in the air.Aerials > Yours
even Aerial Priority > Yours
I don't think so. Pits attacks don't allow him to do what Luigi does.Combo abilty > yours
lol, no. Pit doesn't come close to matching Luigi in the air.
Enlighten us. What does "Luigi do"?I don't think so. Pits attacks don't allow him to do what Luigi does.
Theory craft only goes so far. yes there are characters that should be higher but aren't due to being underplayed or, running into their bad matchups early.lol no
Do you have any idea how many severely underplayed characters there are? Sonic is bottom half but not one of the most underplayed. And Sonic may have better "tourney results/aka bs" than some characters he's worse than. It happens. Just because the ICs have horrible results doesn't mean they suck, or TLink for that matter. Use your head, there's more to this game than Sonics so far recorded tourney results that makes characters good.
The hell?l
The best thing you could do to find Sonics correct position on a tier would be to follow 1 player as Sonic and see how they match up against the best with another character as opposed to following 1 character and seeing how their "recently recorded results" match Sonics. Because the latter doesn't show anything for various reasons. You'll figure that out once you put some thought into it.
Ugh I hate it when people try to discuss a character when they do not know.l
Sonic is a hit and run character, he is played best that way. So starting over is a good thing.
Those are NOT good matchups.l
Nothing is wrong with square one. Marth is a precision character without projectiles, Snakes moves are essentially the opposite of Marth when it comes to comparing large area covering attacks. Both are good match ups for Sonic, Snake a little more difficult but he is immobile enough that hit and run is a good option. Hit, pressure, run is the best option for any character against Snake because of his immobility and poor air game.
Unlike Sonic Luigi does not have the aerial speed.l
It's been known by many for a long time that Luigi does well against Snake. Camp and approach are good? B>Down B get through litterally every single maneuver Snake can do. And you say once Snake is in the air he's Sonics *****? Once anyone is in the air they are Luigis ***** and Snake in the air could be a stock lead for Luigi every time.
Two things.l
Most Snakes aren't good? Well duh, but I'm talking about the top Snakes in the world right now and the top Snakes there have been. Lets say there have been 30?
here is why pikach is high tier not top tier.l
How many Pikachus? 1? And yet that 1 Pika beats all of them and is one of the best in the world. Sure right now the players have a lot to do with it and the fact that Pikachu destroys Snake might have something to do with it but considering Pika does well against practically every character except Dedede and maybe a couple more, yeah he's a candidat. I thought this was common knowledge too. :\
l
The last 2 paragraphs of your quote actually make no sense. Well they make sense, but it's just the words forming sentences. The sentences are pretty much invalid, false or misinforming.
1 pikachu player is one pikachu player.l
And the tourney ranking/game play thing? What is that? You mean the way that 1 Pika player has placed 1st in nearly everything since May beating out every Snake, MK etc?
2 Snake (35 top8, 30 top4, 19 top2, 17 wins) - 813.0lOr how TLink is very underplayed yet the few good Tlinks match those Snakes records even when there are half as many Tlinks?
Evidence? Supporting facts? It's the first step to sounding credible. Give examples of how "it's not even close".Not bringing this up because I'm a Pit main, but it is a factor...
I don't know how to do that multiquote single quote thing so sorry if this is confusing lol1. The hell?
you can make this same argument for anyone in C tier and lower.
Fact of the amtter is that in Spring he outperformed those othe characters and in summer season he is outperforming them again.
not only that the most recent events tend to be more accurate as they reflect the characters current metagame. So it tends to show a bit more accurately what is going on with that character.
2. Ugh I hate it when people try to discuss a character when they do not know.
sonic is NOT a hit and run. He may look it but he isn't, the most of his damage comes from chasing his opponent and pressuring.
Starting over for any character is bad. Since you start off on a neutral slate and have to work at approaching a character when previously you had the advantage.
if I am playing marth and have the advantage, why would I want t start over?
If I am forced to reset that means I have to again deal with Marth's physical wall before I can obtain that advantage.
If I start hitting and then running away, its only because i am baiting you so that when you come in , and make a mistake, I punish you and chase you off the stage. not poke at you then escape.
Those are NOT good matchups.
In both matchups Sonic is at an advanage.
For one he has t deal with Snake's range and superior priority.
With Marth he is dealing with range, speed and priority.
It sucks to have to start out on square one. once you gain an advantage against those characters Sonic has to work hard to maintain it since if he has to start all over, its going to be difficult to get things started again.
so no he does not do well against Snake and Marth.
If it were that sonic could link to his kill moves, yes maybe it would be a good matchup, but the main issue is that all of his kills (save the Bair) cannot be linked into.
I would daresay snake is a better matchup for Sonic than marth, because marth can **** Sonic on ground and in the air and has faster attack speed to boot.
Meanwhile Snake only has a groundgame over him (a very effective one) but because his weaknesses are more easily exploited, the matchup is easier.
Its still a disadvantage for Sonic so its not a good matchup.
3.Unlike Sonic Luigi does not have the aerial speed.
Neutral B fails as a projectile. Its slow, has poor range and little to no versatility.
Down B fails as an approach against snake. He can easily tilt and clank the move. Lay down his claymores and C4.
Luigi has poor ground movement and poor aerial movement. Thats really bad against Snake because you do not want to give him any oppurtunity to lay C4.
Not only that he has his mortar slide which enables him to maintain spacing away from Luigi.
Even if they were effective thats only two means of approach that Luigi has, that means Snake doesn't have to worry about predicting what you may or may not do since he can use a strategy to counter it.
Two things.
1.Can you provide the data to prove such a thing? That they are all top snakes that are all extremely good?
2. Can you prove there are 30 top snakes?
4.here is why pikach is high tier not top tier.
MK, Snake and G&W all outdo him by a significant amount.
Not only that you also have their tourney rankings which exceed Pikachu's by a large amount. yeah Pikachu may do well against Snake and DDD, but just because he does well against other top tier characters doesn't mean he is top tier.
Zelda i melee had some good matchups against high tier characters, but she did poorly against mid and low tier. What happened? She became low tier. Weighed matchups FTW.
Considering that Mk and G&W and Snake have better overall matchups, and solid tourney standings to back this up, how in the heck would pikachu be capable of being a candidate if he has not at the very least, been capable of doing just as well as them tournament wise?
1. It is highly unlikely that your one little Pikachu user is going to run into all 30 of the top playing Snakes and win consistently.Its even less likely that the 30 Snakes are all going to have similar playstyles and skill levels.
2. The reason those characters may not be doing very well, is because they may be running into bad matchups early in a tournament. So if Sonic runs into MK, it means he won't be able to face ganondorf in the final round and possibly win.
1 pikachu player is one pikachu player.
Thats very bad.
it would be equivalent to Azen being the only Mario user and then winning 1st place in every single tournament he attends. Why? It skews the results. it falls onto it being the palyer's skill not the inherent advantages that the character may possess.
Or it can be due to how rarely those snake and MK users face Pikachu and Toon Link. if they aren't familiar with the matchup, they are more prone to lose.
or lets say that Pikachu and Tl do have an advantage over Snake, does this mean they wil be top tier? Of course not, as I mentioned earlier just because DK and Pikachu do well against Snake doesn't mean they are top tier. it just means they do well against those characters.
2 Snake (35 top8, 30 top4, 19 top2, 17 wins) - 813.0
13 Pikachu (6 top8, 5 top4, 2 top2, 4 wins) - 103.5 - 16
26 Toon Link (7 top8, 1 top4, 1 win) - 21.3 - 25
Matching records?
maybe if you compare on a person by person basis but when you look at things holistically it really means nothing.
You have Snake beating TL's record by over 40x the amount of points.
You have him beating Pikachu by 8x the amount of points.
How does that even compare to Snake?
Not only that if they were top tier material, why is Pikachu in 13th place?
It can't be that pikachu is underplayed it must mean that in those tournaments snake is outperforming him.
13 Pikachu (6 top8, 5 top4, 2 top2, 4 wins) - 103.5 - 16
id on't get you either. you are saying so and so is top tier yet the matchups, gameplay and tourney rankings DO NOT support you.