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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

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NintenJoe

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
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893
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Chicago, Illinois
unlike in melee, brawl isn't unbalanced. Most of the characters seem to be fine to me as long as you can get good with them. I admit, I think some characters have a little leeway in battles, (Meta Knight) but getting good with any character seems like a possibility to me.

Anyway, to stay on topic, I think Meta Knight, Marth, and Pit are all for High Tier for sure. Everyone else still has a shot though.
 

Tien2500

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
1,432
Location
NY
So... anyone who is posting videos to prove that a character is good should stop. I could post a video of myself dominating my friend's fox with Pichu. That in no way means Pichu is better than Fox.

As for DK. He is much better than G-dorf. He has better range, above average running speed (as opposed to one of the slowest), and has a better (although still pretty bad) approach. DK also has good tilts which come out quickly. G-dorf edges him out in power but that doesn't make up for the lack of speed.
 

LINKaTINK

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 2, 2006
Messages
69
The game is more balanced within each tier, but the difference in the level of each tier if greater

Top Tier
Lucas
Pikachu
Marth
Ice Climbers
Toon Link
King Dedede
Pit
Snake
Zamus

High Tier
Ike
Wolf
Kirby
Fox
R.O.B.
Metaknight
Mr. Game & Watch
Diddy Kong
Pikmin & Olimar

Middle Tier
Peach
Sonic
Zelda/Sheik
Luigi
Pokemon Trainer
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Wario
Link
Mario
Falco

Low Tier
Samus
Ness
Ganondorf
Donkey Kong
Bowser
Captain Falcon
Yoshi

I think it will something LIKE that.
 

everlasting yayuhzz

Smash Champion
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swaggin' to da maxxx
I love how ****ing donks are saying the game is more "balanced" than Melee. THE GAME HAS BEEN OUT FOR LIKE A MONTH? We don't even know how to play the game yet. In a year or two, it'll be just like Melee, certain characters you have to play if you want to win tournaments and characters that just blow *** and will never win. Simple as that.
 

MeGaBiTe

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
12
Of course the game has just come out but we can already see to some extent who's good and who's not. I've talked to quite a few professionals/advanced players about this subject and I've at least gathered an idea of what the first top tier will look like:

Snake
Marth
Toon Link
King Dedede

All of these dominate pretty easily from what I've seen. Marth and Toon Link are the only characters in Brawl that can combo really easily (from what we've seen), Snake controls the entire stage with his stupid projectiles and mines, and Dedede has his huge weight, great recovery, and his chainthrows going for him. The high tier is a little harder to work out.

And I wouldn't doubt it if Sonic gets bottom tier. Seriously, he sucks.
 

-Linko-

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
498
Location
Spain
I love how ****ing donks are saying the game is more "balanced" than Melee. THE GAME HAS BEEN OUT FOR LIKE A MONTH? We don't even know how to play the game yet. In a year or two, it'll be just like Melee, certain characters you have to play if you want to win tournaments and characters that just blow *** and will never win. Simple as that.
In one month of Melee, we KNEW that Bowser, Mewtwo and Pichu sucked, and that Sheik, Fox and Marth rocked. Heck, we knew that Mewtwo and Pichu sucked since we unlocked them.

In one month of Brawl, we don't know if any character really sucks, or if any character will rock.

But flaming is always easier.
 

tense

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
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Harrisburg, PA
I don't get to play much with my schedule this time of year, but is Mr. Game and Watch that much improved? I'm not necessarily doubting it, just surprised a little. I have expected him to be taken out; I mean, I just remember thinking, "Is this really worth 1000 melees?"
 

tense

Smash Cadet
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Mar 22, 2008
Messages
25
Location
Harrisburg, PA
In one month of Melee, we KNEW that Bowser, Mewtwo and Pichu sucked, and that Sheik, Fox and Marth rocked. Heck, we knew that Mewtwo and Pichu sucked since we unlocked them.

In one month of Brawl, we don't know if any character really sucks, or if any character will rock.

But flaming is always easier.
Amen, brother.
 

talkingbeatles

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 4, 2007
Messages
790
Location
Austin, TX
Captain Falcon is not low tier. He is middle, at least.

His knee is harder to hit with but still kills.

His uair is still brutal.

His nair is good, his bair is good.

His dair has versitility.

His up tilt is stupid-good-dumb.

He can't combo, he's not as fast. He's a different character now. Get over it. He's still good.
 

Gregorius

Smash Rookie
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Feb 24, 2006
Messages
16
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Kitchener, ON
Well, I have basically been breathing this game since it came out, so heres what I think. There is no official list because there haven't been many major pro tournies yet.

This is with items and smashballs off.

TOP:

Pikachu
Pit
Toon Link
Diddy Kong
Marth
Wolf

HIGH:

Luigi
Metaknight
Fox
Falco
Ike
Dedede
Kirby
R.O.B
Olimar


MIDDLE:

Snake
Zelda
Samus
Lucas
Mario
Ness
Sonic
Game and Watch
Peach
Zero Suit Samus
Pokemon Trainer (Should be reviewed as one character with three movesets)
Ice Climbers
Jigglypuff

LOW:

Yoshi
Lucario
Bowser
Link
Sheik
Donkey Kong
Captain Falcon

BOTTOM:

Ganondorf
 

-Linko-

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
498
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Captain Falcon is not low tier. He is middle, at least.

His knee is harder to hit with but still kills.

His uair is still brutal.

His nair is good, his bair is good.

His dair has versitility.

His up tilt is stupid-good-dumb.

He can't combo, he's not as fast. He's a different character now. Get over it. He's still good.
And he is the only one that can FalconPunch you. Screw it, Falcon Punch alone is worth +2 tiers!
 

blaksheap82

Smash Ace
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I love how ****ing donks are saying the game is more "balanced" than Melee. THE GAME HAS BEEN OUT FOR LIKE A MONTH? We don't even know how to play the game yet. In a year or two, it'll be just like Melee, certain characters you have to play if you want to win tournaments and characters that just blow *** and will never win. Simple as that.
I wish common sense like this would stop people from jumping the gun and trying to recreate the exact the scenarios and metagame there was only two months ago in Melee. Just have some patience people. With all the tournaments I've seen so far, it doesn't come down to skill in this game right now, it's mostly skill in general. There's plenty of time; do you Sakurai is going to make another Smash before the next console? How about playing the game itself and developing some skill, that way the first official tier list will have some credit to it, instead of just what we have now. (Which is what I'm sure the BRoomers are doing; do you see any of them here making ludicrous and unsubstantiated claims and assertions?)
 

Problem2

Smash Champion
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NNID
Problem0
Top
Marth
Toon Link
R.O.B.
Pit
Meta Knight

Upper
Falco
Olimar
Luigi
Wolf
Fox

High
Pokemon Trainer
Diddy Kong
Lucas
Mr. Game and Watch
Wario
Zelda
Mario

Mid
Ike
Snake
Dedede
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Sheik
Pikachu
Lucario

Low
Ness
Jigglypuff
Peach
Samus
Donkey Kong
Bowser


Bottom
Captain Falcon
Sonic
Link
Yoshi
Ganondorf

Well I tried my best. I think I did the worst job in the middle portion, but that part was a mess, even in Melee.

But to think that pretty much everyone but Link and below do at least decent against each other is somewhat impressive. Then again... most of us have only been playing for 2 weeks.
 

Firebert

Smash Ace
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Messages
717
Location
Elmhurst, Illinois
Problem, your low tier simply baffles me. Falcon and Sonic should at least be middle tier, or at least upper low tier, but definitely not bottom.
Edit:Wow, exactly 1337 replies.
 

BigRick

Smash Master
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Montreal, Canada AKA Real City brrrrrrrrapp!
yeah emblem said that and we all went back and looked at what wolf has to offer, and its nothing really exciting. his bair is good, dsmash is good fsmash/tilt is ok. other than that he just looks so mediocre, fox/falco are definitely better than wolf. he's not bad, just not top tier material for sure, don't know why people put him up there all the time.
thank you for your support, mages
 

-Linko-

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
498
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Spain
I wouldn't call him trashy, but the Zelda player is impressive.

No, Zelda doesn't belong in the top tier. High tier at best. Zelda isn't top tier material and never will be unless the developers decide to give her a big speed boost.
No, the PT player was trashy as hell. But i agree that the Zelda player is impressive:

Here are some videos of Zelda ****** top tiers:

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=1t66jiLNkOQ&feature=related Marth

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=j4cXHr9grrc&feature=related Solid Snake
 

SPAWN

Smash Master
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Slippi.gg
spaw#333
Problem, your low tier simply baffles me. Falcon and Sonic should at least be middle tier, or at least upper low tier, but definitely not bottom.
Edit:Wow, exactly 1337 replies.
Explain. I don't understand how Sonic can be in middle. I can maybe understand on Falcon... but Sonic is just so bad, unfortunately, :( (was planning on maining him T_T )
 

Fletch

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I love how ****ing donks are saying the game is more "balanced" than Melee. THE GAME HAS BEEN OUT FOR LIKE A MONTH? We don't even know how to play the game yet. In a year or two, it'll be just like Melee, certain characters you have to play if you want to win tournaments and characters that just blow *** and will never win. Simple as that.
Plus with camping looking to be the only viable strategy, the game is going to end up quite a bit more imbalanced than Melee. At least you could somewhat use all the characters back then... Now it's looking to be just a couple that will be viable.
 

Gypsy Lee

Smash Champion
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Bethany, West Virginia
God Tier:

Wi-Fi Lag
Final Destination's Edges
R.O.B.

High Tier:

All the lame characters.

Middle Tier:

All the broken characters from Melee that should have gotten nerfed but didn't.

Low Tier:

All the cool characters, save R.O.B.
 

Fletch

Smash Master
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unlike in melee, brawl isn't unbalanced. Most of the characters seem to be fine to me as long as you can get good with them. I admit, I think some characters have a little leeway in battles, (Meta Knight) but getting good with any character seems like a possibility to me.
Wow at being so naive...
 

-Linko-

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
498
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God Tier:

Wi-Fi Lag
Final Destination's Edges
R.O.B.

High Tier:

All the lame characters.

Middle Tier:

All the broken characters from Melee that should have gotten nerfed but didn't.

Low Tier:

All the cool characters, save R.O.B.
ZOMFG, you phail bcuz Landmastah is Über-God Tier.
 

Night Avenger

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Messages
206
Guys, why is Snake in Stupid Tier?? Is he really THAT good? And what about "OMG WOLF ROXXORZ GOD TIERZ!!!1!one!" Did he just stop being good? Did he have an unnoticed BIG weakness? What's going on??
 

-Linko-

Smash Journeyman
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Guys, why is Snake in Stupid Tier?? Is he really THAT good? And what about "OMG WOLF ROXXORZ GOD TIERZ!!!1!one!" Did he just stop being good? Did he have an unnoticed BIG weakness? What's going on??
Snake has the best proyectiles. He can spam explosives around the battlefield. Even his neutral combo kills. All his aerials kill. He is very heavy and he has godly recover, making him able to survive in high %.

Do you need more?
 

ShadowLink84

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Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
I agree, I have 2 friends that "main" Sonic, and I don't man anybody (I do lots of random...) and I can almost always beat them. Sonic is a bad character, I can't see him as anything but low or bottom tier
Play Lucky or Zeal or any other competent Sonic before you make such a statement.

Sonic ***** all the bottom tier characters, all the low tier characters, a good number of the middle before running into problems with obviously high tier characters.
Bottom and low he is not.
 

Fletch

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Guys, why is Snake in Stupid Tier?? Is he really THAT good? And what about "OMG WOLF ROXXORZ GOD TIERZ!!!1!one!" Did he just stop being good? Did he have an unnoticed BIG weakness? What's going on??
Brawl is dominated by camping, and Snake is simply the best at it right now along with characters like Toon Link.
 

jwj442

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Messages
212
Snake's aerials are slow and while his recovery is totally safe against some characters, for some it's easy to gimp or puts him in a bad position. His slow move speed also hurts against some characters who can camp better than him. He's still one of the best characters though.

And Toon Link isn't THAT good at camping, his projectiles are slow and easily swatted down or powershielded if he just sits there shooting. They work better for helping him approach. He's probably top tier, but not because of camping.
 

Firebert

Smash Ace
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Explain. I don't understand how Sonic can be in middle. I can maybe understand on Falcon... but Sonic is just so bad, unfortunately, :( (was planning on maining him T_T )
His moves are faster than most, and can hit pretty hard. And, of course, he's fast.
And lavamage, maybe he has a higher learning curve to truly be good at him, rather than just use him okay.
 

Iamthemovie

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 4, 2005
Messages
341
Of the characters that I used (and played against) extensively , here's what my guesses are...
TOP
Toon Link

HIGH
Olimar
Pit
Marth
Diddy

MID
ICs
Lucas
Zelda
Fox
Ike
Pikachu
Falco
Mario

LOW
Captain Falcon
Bowser

BOTTOM
 

Kilikan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
104
God/Top
Marth

High
Toon Link
Wolf
Snake
Diddy Kong
Peach
C.Falcon
-----------------------------------------------------V The point of uncertainty V---------
Mid
Ike
Pit
Dedede
Ness
Lucario
Lucas
Falco
Jiggz
Bowser
Samus and Zsamus
Zelda/sheik
Link
Mario

Bottom
Metaknight
Game and Watch
Yoshi
Fox
PKMN Trainer
Sonic
Luigi
Pikachu
Ganondorf
R.O.B
Ice Climbers
Wario
Donkey Kong
Kirby


(Olimar is the only character i'm completely unsure about)
 

SPAWN

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spaw#333
I'm sorry, but for Sonic, he's not good. Yes, he runs mad fast, we got that. That's all he has though. It's impossible to kill with him (you can sometimes get in upb> upair when they're at the top of the screen.. but that's about it for lower damaged kills), his aerials are slow, he has no priority, he doesn't have anything that really makes him good. What are you going to do, run at someone dash attack at them and do like 8 damage or something? You can do that, shield and wait, or fair, or grab as an approach. All of which if the opponent waits, gets beat.

Sonic, in my opinion has nothing. I have been playing melee 2 years competitively (2 years ago = first tournament) and have come up with nothing.. yet. I played the mages this weekend, attempted using Sonic vs them, and everyone recked him. I go toon link/Marth/Luigi, and I do alright, so I know I'm not a bad player.

What did you mean by he can hit pretty hard? Not many of his moves hit hard... fsmash? That doesn't do too much damage in comparison to someone else's smash (say toonlink's fsmash). In conclusion, Sonic is just NOT GOOD.
 

Kilikan

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
104
I'm sorry, but for Sonic, he's not good. Yes, he runs mad fast, we got that. That's all he has though. It's impossible to kill with him (you can sometimes get in upb> upair when they're at the top of the screen.. but that's about it for lower damaged kills), his aerials are slow, he has no priority, he doesn't have anything that really makes him good. What are you going to do, run at someone dash attack at them and do like 8 damage or something? You can do that, shield and wait, or fair, or grab as an approach. All of which if the opponent waits, gets beat.

Sonic, in my opinion has nothing. I have been playing melee 2 years competitively (2 years ago = first tournament) and have come up with nothing.. yet. I played the mages this weekend, attempted using Sonic vs them, and everyone recked him. I go toon link/Marth/Luigi, and I do alright, so I know I'm not a bad player.

What did you mean by he can hit pretty hard? Not many of his moves hit hard... fsmash? That doesn't do too much damage in comparison to someone else's smash (say toonlink's fsmash). In conclusion, Sonic is just NOT GOOD.
Unpredictability is sonics only game, he plays different from any other smash character in that he must constantly be on the move and constantly be unpredictable, if an opponent can predict where you are going to land, or when you are coming for him, then sonic will be wrecked. Sonic against multiple opponents is horrible, sonic against single opponent is still more of a luck game.
 

Nasty_Nate

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
1,164
i've been seeing a lot that people think wolf is really good, but im not really sure why. his fsmash/dsmash are prety good and his back air is hax, but i feel like his comboing is meh and his recovery is just bad (hard to di out of his up b, predictibility is up there etc)

snake i wasn't sure about either. he has a very controlling game for sure and he's definitely strong but his slow air game seems to bring him down a bit plus his recovery. he's def not top like everyone else seems to think he his, maybe we'll consider moving him and maybe wolf up.
Yeah I didnt think he was either, but I was playing my friends brother online who camped lasers, and his gun hits you when he pulls it out, and when he pulls it out he swings it all the way above him. The he just fsmashes or down smashes or grabs..... I guess this means hes good, or really really gay
 

talkingbeatles

Smash Ace
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Aug 4, 2007
Messages
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Austin, TX
Brawl is dominated by camping, and Snake is simply the best at it right now along with characters like Toon Link.
How the hell is Brawl dominated by camping? You can air dodge almost instantly and your not limited to just one. Camping has been weakend. It's easier to get to your oppenents now.
 

ShadowLink84

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I'm sorry, but for Sonic, he's not good. Yes, he runs mad fast, we got that. That's all he has though. It's impossible to kill with him (you can sometimes get in upb> upair when they're at the top of the screen.. but that's about it for lower damaged kills)
Sonic isn't MEANT to kill. I can't help but want to pull hair out of my head every single time people mention this, he is meant to gimp and chase his opponent.
, his aerials are slow, he has no priority, he doesn't have anything that really makes him good. What are you going to do, run at someone dash attack at them and do like 8 damage or something? You can do that, shield and wait, or fair, or grab as an approach. All of which if the opponent waits, gets beat.
his aerials are slow? they are actually pretty average on speed.

You obviously haven't played Sonic or mained him if that is what you believe he does. Go to the SOnic forum and then look at the videos.
Sonic, in my opinion has nothing. I have been playing melee 2 years competitively (2 years ago = first tournament) and have come up with nothing.. yet. I played the mages this weekend, attempted using Sonic vs them, and everyone recked him. I go toon link/Marth/Luigi, and I do alright, so I know I'm not a bad player.
So you assume that because you can't use the character right off the bat it means they are bad?
Thats pretty much an insult to anyone wo mains Fox and Sonic because those characters have high learning curves. How easy a character is capable of being used does reflect on their placement in the tier list but if you are saying the character himself is bad because YOU are inept at his usage then it falls on you, not the character.
What did you mean by he can hit pretty hard? Not many of his moves hit hard... fsmash? That doesn't do too much damage in comparison to someone else's smash (say toonlink's fsmash). In conclusion, Sonic is just NOT GOOD.
a combo with sonic can easily exceed 20% damage,
if youtry sweetspotting the ledge you'
ll get spring gimped and not many characters that are not similar to Snake, Ike and pit will have a tough time recovering from being knocked out the arena.
Sonic isn't the best but he sure as heck is not anywhere near low tier.

Unpredictability is sonics only game, he plays different from any other smash character in that he must constantly be on the move and constantly be unpredictable, if an opponent can predict where you are going to land, or when you are coming for him, then sonic will be wrecked. Sonic against multiple opponents is horrible, sonic against single opponent is still more of a luck game.
No. Unpredictable+Speed+gimping+poking is his game. Sonic's game basically revolves aorund overwhelming your opponent and controlling the pace of the match.
Sonic against multiple opponents is poor yes but the tier lists represent 1v1.
During which it isn't luck as you say but revolves around the game above. his main problem isn't predictability or lack of KO ability. Its his priority. Hands down sonic has the lowest priority in the game, if it were his priority was on par with Luigi he would be considered a far greater threat than people give him credit.
Characters with high learning curves aren't necessarily bad, but before you start declaring the character itself bad you have to involve some time into the characters gameplay before you can claim them a poor character.
 

Nasty_Nate

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
1,164
Hey fellas. I updated my list a little bit. Here is the best list in this topic

Top Tier:
-Snake (One of the heaviest characters. Tilt combos are beast, all of his arials are beast. nikita and grenade drops are beast, and when you can plant c4 on people, ITS BEAST!)

-Metaknight (His recovery is beast, his spacing is beast, his speed is good, and he has alot of moves that are useful. Downsides are hes light and he has few killing moves, but the rest of his game is too good.)

-Olimar (awesome range and grab range. Hes pretty strong and not a big target. Biggest downside is that he can be edgehogged in a game where few people can)

-Toon Link (Fast, strong, can combo, and has good projectiles. Dont see many downsides, so Im surprised I havent seen more people use him)

-Marth (Still has good range, and same melee ken combo. Side b is easy to hit. Doesnt have very good recovery, but is still good character all around. Might be high because people already have an idea of how to play him)

-Pikachu (has good range, is strong, and is hard to approach if you spam b. No killing move arials, but otherwise a good character. Havent seen many pikachu mains either)

-Diddy Kong (Has good combos at low percents, a decent recovery, and BANANAS!! Downside is he can be edgehogged as well, and alot of his game relies on bananas and good reads. I might have placed him so high since hes my main and I know his strengths well)

Middle Tier
-Lucas (Good spacing and is pretty strong. His Pk thunder is good to abuse and alot of moves kill. Havent seen many lucas users either, so may not be best placing for him)

-Ike (Strong, good range, and has a variety of unique moves, like his upb which is fast and hard to avoid, and his b which he cant be hit out of. Good tilts too. Downside is his obvious slowness in how fast his moves come out and his speed in general

-Zelda (Good priority with her attacks, dins fire is good, and is pretty strong. Recovery is still really good. Downside is shes a little slow)

-Falco (Lasers are good and can laser lock when opponent is knocked down. Forward tilt reaches far and uptilt can combo for a while. Downside is horrible up b recovery and down air doesnt spike like melee)

-R.O.B (Decent range, good damage, and projectiles arent bad. Good recovery, good tilts, and fairly heavy. Downside is he's a little slow and his arials take a while to come out.)

-Fox (Drill to uptilt works wonders, fast, and has good recovery. Downside is upair is harder to hit, so he has to rely on smashes more often for kills.

-Ness (Whole moveset is generally better than melees, and has good recovery. Downside is that his projectiles arent as good as lucas's, and moves dont have as much range. Yoyos do, but are a little bit slow in coming out)

-Luigi (Good arials, good smashes, and fireballs come out quickly. Downside is his tilts arent very good, and his upb is hard to hit)

-Pokemon Trainer (each pokemon has good moves. Squirtle is fast with good upsmash, ivysaurs bullet seed gives an easy 60 percent, and Charizards strong and a good rocksmash does a grip of damage. Different strengths and weaknesses for each pokemon)

--Ice Climbers (Nice range, good damage, and grab combos can do up to 40%. Definately room for metagame to improve)

-King dedede (chain grab helps alot in evening matchups with other characters, hes strong and has some good fast moves like his back air. Downside is his killing moves are hard to hit and he can be edgehogged. Should probably be placed higher but I havent seen good dedede competition)

-Mr game and watch (Good range, good damage, and decent speed. Downside is his moves stay out for a while, so if you miss you can be easily punished. Upsmash and bacon toss suck too)

-Kirby (good range and good killing moves. Downside is he is slow and light)

-Mario (Pretty fast, ok moveset, and good recovery. Downside is his fsmash doesnt reach as far as melees, and his range isnt as good as it used to be)

-Wario (floaty and arials have alot of range and can be spammed. Downsides are his killing moves, such as forward smash, the fart, and up air are hard to hit, and if his bike is on stage his recovery sucks.)

-Wolf (The only way Ive seen a real effective wolf is a laser spamming one. Characters with reflect or game and watches bucket can counter this)

-ZSS (Fast and has good range. Downside is she can be edgehogged, she doesnt have many killing moves, and she is light)

-Shiek (Fast, side tilt is really good, and needles are an easy 20 percent. Downsides are most good things, such as forward air or needle storms, have been nerfed, and has a lack of killing moves.)

-Samus (projectiles dont make up for her lack of speed)

-Peach (most things have been downgraded from melee, most notably her down smash and her turnip spam, but her fsmash is stronger)

-Bowser (some things are better and some things are worse than melee. Not sure about placing)

-Donkey Kong (seems better than melee but is still slow)

-Jigglypuff (worse than melee, rest is USELESS)

-Link (a slower version of toon link with worse projectiles)

-Yoshi (havent decided, need help with this one)

Bottom Tier
-Lucario (combos do little damage, and waiting til high percents to stand a chance sucks. People say that hes a good character at 0% anyways, and they are downright wrong)

-Sonic (Fast runner.... thats about it)

-Ganondorf (Side b reads go a long way, but his moveset in general sucks.)

-Captain Falcon (his up air can combo and you can neutral air to grab, but other than that I dont see any good moves)
 
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