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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

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Nasty_Nate

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
1,164
Sonic shouldn't be in bottom tier neither should lucario.
Snake and Pikachu aren't top tier thats a fact, they are possibly high tier to mid high tier.
Im sorry, the fact that you want snake to be anywhere other than top makes your post not valid....

Snake is top tier, its just a fact.
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
Im sorry, the fact that you want snake to be anywhere other than top makes your post not valid....

Snake is top tier, its just a fact.
I am sorry but because you disagree with me your argument is invalid.

Snake isn't top tier, you place him up against characters that are Top tier he gets ***** badly.
Marth murders him. Olimar murders him.
Sheik murders him. Squirtle hurts him really bad as well.
his aerials are slow and leave him open worse than every character you have up there for top tier.

His specials are good especially his c4 since you can plant it on an opponent and activate it when they are at high percentage but it is difficult to be extremely accurate against characters faster than you who will pressure you.

Yes the ^B is a very good recovery but it only has juggernaut frames not super armor so while you are trying to rise from the bottom any of the top tier characters can jump down gimp you causing you to die. Heck if you approach from the top you are extremely predictable in your movements so they can jump up to meet you and knock you further out again.
Top tier? Not likely.

Camping? Good luck with that considering that >B leaves you vulnerable, B lets you chuck two grenades at most during which they can be caught and tossed back.
Down B is good but your opponent isn't going to fall into a trap like that very easily.

Approaching? Snake is pretty decent at it but not more so than any other top tier character and is only on par with high tier characters. Again though he won't be approaching characters like Marth or Olimar simply because theycan approach and camp better than he can far more.

Snake is high to mid high tier.

I main Snake/Sonic/Link, how is MY experience lesser than your lack thereof?

For you to say that my opinion should be disregarded because I disagree with your tier list is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears,and singing at the top of your lungs.

If this is what this tier list discussion is going to become then there really is no point in calling it a discussion.
 

will388

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
53
Location
Long Island, NY
^well thought out and written post but at this point if u go back some pages, everyone is saying 'snake is unanimously top tier' so ur going to get some disagreements

though as far as i can tell, snake is DEFINITELY -NOT- top tier, but whatever
 

tafutureboy

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
867
Location
Texas
PT for bottom tier (my mains are always bottom or mid tiers, 64-Luigi Melee-Link Brawl-PT)

Top Tier I'm going to have to go with Toon Link
 

Nasty_Nate

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 22, 2006
Messages
1,164
ugh, snake doesnt need to camp. He can camp with his projectiles, but he doesnt need to, his tilts are too good.

Lets break down his moves

Side A> does good damage, has good range, and kills (almost outranges marths fsmash)
A> does good damage, has good range, and kills
upA> does good damage, has GREAT range, and kills (almost outranges marths fsmash. Let me remind you, THIS IS AN UP A!! Thats rediculous range for an attack that seemingly hits above him)
Down tilt> Does good damage, has good range, but doesnt kill
Dash A> Fast, good range, and can be cancelled to upsmash for a kill

Smash attacks now?
Fsmash> Slow, but probably as strong as dededes fsmash, maybe stronger (this DOES outrange marths fsmash)
Dsmash> Worst smash. Good opponents avoid mines, but still useful I guess
Up smash> Awesome range, and can be dash attack canceled (if you havent seen that youtube snake tricks or something). Dash attack to up smash kills

True his arials are slow, but they are amazing. WAY TOO GOOD. Lets break down his arials now
Back air> Good damage, good range, kills
Up air> Good damage, good range, kills very easily
Down air> If short hopped all kicks hit, and last kick usually kills. If someone is behind a shielding snake, he just has to shorthop this backwards and its an easy 30 or so damage..
Neutral air> Can be fullhopped for all hits to hit. A fullhop neutral air will hit an opponent in front of you. Like the down air, it gives 30 or so damage, and the last kick kills.....

Finally his b moves.....
B> Grenades when properly cooked will explode on impact. If someone is coming to attack you. you shield, drop the grenade, and the opponent hits the grenade and explodes. When rolling away from an opponent, you can pull a grenade out before you roll, which drops it, and gives the opponent more things to dodge.
Side B> Nikita is great when cancelled with R. Nikita can spike a hanging opponent if the nikita is cancelled above where they are hanging, since it falls straight down. Nikita mindgames are great too, since people try to punish u when you use it, but when cancelled it either hits them or lets you punish them trying to predict you
Down B> C4 is probably his worst special, but its still great. A skilled snake will either plant c4 in smart places or plant it on his opponent. Short hop then plant for less lag. Also, you can use c4 for recovery if for some reason your UpB cant make it there
Up B> Snakes recovery. He has super armor, but if knocked off can use it again. If for some reason he cant get back, he can work with the c4 to recover at the cost of some damage


Now, you say his arials are slow but dont mention they are strong and easy to hit. You say c4 planting is hard to do, which it is, but skilled snakes can do it more often than normal people can. You say the upb recovery is easy to punish if they are coming from above, but snakes can dodge out of it. You say the nikita can be easily punished, but dont mentioned that it can be cancelled and dropped for a spike, mindgame, etc. You say that grenades being chucked can be tossed back, but dont mention they can be dropped, cooked, etc.

Im sorry if I offended you, but from your post its obvious you dont have alot of snake experience. Youtube Psycho ****** if you want to see a good snake at work. Sorry but at the moment, due to tournament placings and just the stats on his moves, snake being top tier is a fact, not an opinion. If tier lists were based on characters you like, then maybe he shouldnt be up there
 

SPAWN

Smash Master
Joined
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CT
Slippi.gg
spaw#333
>_> I've been playing Sonic since he came out. I'll check out the Sonic thread more, I guess, then get back to you, >_>
 

furyberserk

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
89
Top, high, bottom...Top high, high/mid, middle bottom...Top, upper, high, middle, low, bottom...
WTF? It's Top, High, Middle, Low, Bottom. So far, only Zixion knows the order. Top is the best, Bottom are the worst upon which ther has to be someone there, the bottom is the last person of the tier list...no excuses. Middle are decent, High are the Cheap/Gay characters and Low are the most recommended of the worst with some usfullness against other characters. Bottom are almost not useful or just the last, and Top can combo, juggle, have cheap moves, strong, and have usfullness of any advanced techniques.
These are the rules I've noticed throughout both the first and the last of the Tier Lists in Super Smash Bros. and in Melee. It should be the same in Brawl. This is errored to an extent that I will be lazy to correct and you can't deny the Truth.
 

Circu

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
10
Location
Lynn, IN
I haven't really played and/or seen all the characters in action enough yet to have an educated guess as to where I believe all the characters might belong in a potential tier list; so I'm only going to try to place the characters I'm most familiar with in spots where they might end up. This tier list based on 1v1 matches with no items or final smashes. I'll also mention some of the reasons why I believe certain characters are placed where they are.

Potential Top:

Pit- Strong, quick attacks, decent speed, along with a really good projectile make pit definitely one of the best (if not THE best) characters in the game. About the only thing I can say bad about him is that his up B can be gimped. He's almost impossible to go off the stage and edge guard against, even with Metaknight!

Marth- Even though he definitely plays differently than the last game, he's still a force to be reckoned with. He still has good speed, quick attacks, and a decent range with his sword. The tip of the sword is still scary as hell! Characters with projectiles still mess up his approach, but good luck trying to get past his sword to get in close for a kill!

Toon Link- From what I've seen so far, Toon Link is a beast! All of his air attacks seem to have good speed, range, priority, and KO potential. He has good speed, some decent ranged attacks, a recovery that can get back from just about anywhere, and a good amount of moves with KO potential. He also has better reach with his sword than expected for a character of his height with such a small sword. About the only bad thing about him is his low weight.

Could be Top, could be High:

Fox- Yes, his upsmash and up-air were both nerfed a bit, but upsmash is still an extremely strong KO move. It can star KO Dedede at about 110%. Also, his other smash attacks are stronger now and are all pretty good KO moves. His bair is also a great KO move. He is also one of the fastest characters in the game (3rd I think?). Granted, his shine-spike isn't what it used to be, but with all these good KO moves that he has now, it seems less important.

King Dedede- I think a lot of people are going to be very surprised with the King. If you're playing any of the characters that can be chain grabbed, the match is basically over before it started. If you're one of the characters that aren't, you've still got a very difficult and frustrating match ahead of you. He is incredibly difficult to approach. He has one of the best keep-away games in the game thanks to his ftilt and incredible grab range. He even has a ranged attack to further increase his keep-away game! He's heavy, can float, actually has some quick, strong KO attacks (uptilt for instance), and is extremely difficult to edge-guard due to the invincibility frames in his upB. Expect a match far different than anything you've experienced when facing the King! Falco, Wolf, and the fliers seem to be extremely strong against him, however.

Wolf- This guy is a beast! Literally! He has quick, strong attacks with excellent reach, and has a good land speed for how hard he hits. I haven't really seen how good he is against some of the better characters, but I have seen enough to know that he's definitely a really good character. His recovery is horrible by the way!

Potential High:

Metaknight- This character can attack quick! He definitely has some of the quickest moves in the game! He will hit often, but his hits don't do a ton of damage. Although he doesn't have any long-range attacks, his neutral B protects him from most projectiles and is a great approach against anyone who tries to camp him. He definitely is one of the best characters at edge guarding thanks to his ability to fly and good range with most of his attacks. He definitely can hang with just about any character and put up one hell of a fight, although the characters I have listed above him seem to have a slight advantage over him in certain areas. His light weight and a limited amount of KO moves are about the only thing that hurts him.

R.O.B. This is another character that I think people will be surprised about. He's fairly heavy, has a good recovery, has some good long range attacks that can KO, and has some quick and powerful KO moves. I also need to mention that his dsmash is super-quick and makes him hard to get close to. He is also very good at edge-guarding with his long-range attacks, especially with his laser if you can aim it well. It comes out extremely quick and because of that is extremely difficult to air dodge. It's hard to tell at this point where he'll land on the tier list.

Snake- He's heavy (3rd heaviest?), has extremely good projectiles, lots of strong KO moves, and is generally a tricky character to play against. He's so incredibly different from any other character in this game that it's hard to tell where he'll end up landing in a tier list. There are so many different ways to play him! Playing against him is also another match that will be different from any match you've ever played. If he controls that pace of the match consider yourself done for! If you keep constant pressure on him and keep an eye on him and where he lays mines, however, it's going to be difficult for him to win. Really, he could end up anywhere on the tier list, for now, I think high is the best fit.

Falco- This is definitely a new Falco in this game. Almost all his attack moves are new, and his sideb now has better recovery range. He also has a new shine. His new shine also adds another element to his strategy. It has extremely good range and makes him much harder to approach. He is still pretty good at dishing out damage, but seems much harder to kill with, due to the slow speed of his fsmash, which is his strongest KO attack. He's still a decent character, but I currently don't feel he belongs higher than high tier.

Ike- This guy's power is scary! No character can make you pay for a mistake better than he can! His attacks aren't exactly the fastest in the game, so he won't be throwing/landing many attacks, but he only needs to land a few to kill. As you play smart with him and don't try to force openings that aren't there, you can expect to win some matches with him for sure! He's not the best character, but I think he's better than average.

Diddy Kong- Diddy's good land speed and quick attacks make him a pretty good character. His banana game is very good (and very annoying) against anyone not used to them. Once you get used to them, however, they're not much of a problem. Since this game makes catching and picking up items so much easier, it's easy to pick up and use the bananas against Diddy. They definitely still have their uses, just don't expect spamming bananas to be a winning strategy. He also lacks very many KO moves. Overall though, he's still better than average.

Could be High, could be Mid:

Zelda- Zelda is much better in this game than last! She has a lot of strong KO moves this time around and Din's Fire is now a beast! It's one of the best edge guarding moves in the game! Her smash moves for the most part seem very strong, deal lots of damage, but seem to come out slow. I think this is another character that's more suited for a smart player. While not for everyone, this character could be deadly in the right hands.

Sheik- With her air moves being so incredibly nerfed, don't expect to KO until higher percentages. It seems that upsmash and dsmash are now her best KO options, but they still need to be at high percentages to kill. Despite all of this, she still has an extremely good ground game and is definitely capable of dishing out a good deal of damage. Also, now that Zelda is better, it makes the character a little more adaptable. While she might not be a great character, I definitely think she's still better than average.

Mr. Game and Watch- G&W is a much better character this time around. He's not as light this time and has some extremely strong KO moves along with decent priority. He'll definitely be higher on the tier list this time, I'm just not sure where.

Pikachu- Pikachu has definitely improved since last game. Downb is crazy now, good luck attacking him from above, and his dsmash can deal out good damage fast! He's also still quick and shouldn't be underestimated. I think he definitly has some potential to be a decent character.

Potential Mid:

Mario- He just seems so...average, and I'm not sure what I think about his new downb...

Potential Low:

Link- He definitely has better range with his sword. His recovery seems horrible, and he now has less range with upb and his grab. His attacks are fairly slow, and don't seem to have much KO potential, and his new boomerang is pretty horrible. All the boomerang pretty much does is bring opponents closer and free to attack, ouch... Luckily, us Link fans have Toon Link!

Ganondorf- He's still EXTREMELY powerful and heavy, but that's about all he has going for him. His power makes him fun to play, but fun doesn't mean good. Hopefully someone can figure out how to make him playable, but right now he just seems WAY too slow in both move speed and running speed. If it's a power you seek to use, right now I would suggest using Ike instead...

Like I said earlier, these are just my current opinions. I'm sure they'll change once new glitches and techniques are found and once I look into some other characters more... Really when it comes down to it, any character could end up being the best.This game seems to be a little more balanced this time, so it's definitely hard to predict tier locations. Only time will tell who ends up where...
 

ablizno

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
12
Pikachu, and Lucas are way up there, Peach probably in the middle, Jigglypuff dropped.
 

firexemblemxpryde

Smash Lord
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Dec 20, 2005
Messages
1,440
Location
Burnaby, BC
Go to a tournament with people that have been playing the game since before it came out, and tell me that Snake isn't top tier.

In this game offense/approach is butchered, and the defensive is buffed. Unless you play on playing with Items or something, it's pretty dang hard approaching him. Why don't you ask, say, Gimpyfish?

Or maybe... JUST maybe, Pikachu is top tier. =O :pikachu:
 

Truce

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 12, 2007
Messages
56
Location
Seattle, WA
Am I the only one who's noticed that nobody is looking at low tiers properly? Everyone can seem to find plenty of characters who are "good", but "bad" characters seem more scarce.

On that train of thought, I can really only think of Donkey Kong, ROB, Lucario, Samus(?), and Link as being not very impressive in Brawl. Everyone else seems as beastly or beastlier than their Melee form, with all the newcomers having plenty of potential.

Can anyone else think of truly "bad" characters right now?
 

PIMPSLAP

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2007
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1,189
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Snakes BAIR
TO EARLY FOR A TIER LIST IN ASIA THEY DON'T EVEN HAVE ONE!!!!!
i mean all the chars in brawl are broken lolz
bowser=bowserside ghey
medaknight=horibal up-b push away
charizard=Rock smash Ghey
Zelda= spam din fire laugh
olimar= priorty of evil perportions
pikachu=spam thunderbolt
snake= spam every thing
luigi=awesome
and other stuff i can't think of you should just let the things get weeded out the game is about priority know look at wario's bite

 

Browny

Smash Hater
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Mar 22, 2008
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Video Games
long time lurker, first time poster, but this just HAD to be said

Sonic, in my opinion has nothing. I have been playing melee 2 years competitively (2 years ago = first tournament) and have come up with nothing.. yet. I played the mages this weekend, attempted using Sonic vs them, and everyone recked him. I go toon link/Marth/Luigi, and I do alright, so I know I'm not a bad player
If you have no patience to attempt to learn a SUPPOSEDLY low tier character, and simply switch to using the so far universally agreed top tier characters, and find yourself winning, all that means is you are a no where near as pro as you think. The really proffesional players here are the ones that take the time to learn to adapt to new characters and strategies, not only main their favourite characters, but will stick it out with them and continue to win games while everyone else jumps on the top-tier bandwagon.

i know sonic is pretty low when it comes to tiers, but if you planned to main him, give up after 2 weeks based on this tier discussion thread, that really is weak.
 

Theftz22

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
1,030
Location
Hopewell, NJ
No one understands sonic right now. Any competant sonic player smacks around all the tiers except high and top. All you have to do is stop being so predictable. as for finishing, he has at least three good finishes. Besides, all you have to do to kill players without crazy jumping or recoveries is intercept them when they fly off of the stage and then hang on to the edge so that they can't grab on. Sonic may not be top tier or even very high on the high tier list, but I think he is better than midlle tier
 

Tien2500

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2002
Messages
1,432
Location
NY
Nate I really think you overrated Snakes aerial game and ground game. Yes his tilts are powerful for tilts but I don't think they're powerful enough so that he can go head to head with a character like Marth. Likewise his aerials aren't so great either. Sure they're powerful but they lack a bit of speed and Snake's air mobility isn't so great. He can't really go head to head in the air either. Even the better Snake players (like ******) seem to struggle with Snake head to head. His aerials and tilts are there to complement his air game.

Also I don't think his F-smash range exceeds Marth's range. I think this is like Ness' Melee PK Flash where the visuals of the move make the hitbox seem larger than it is. But I could be wrong because due the move's slowness I've had trouble getting it to hit at all.

As for Snake's tier listing based on what I've seen it would be hard to argue against high or top tier. But (and this is purely my prediction) I think this is largely due to the uniqueness in his style. I think as people get used to fighting against him he might be more manageable.
 

VersatileBJN

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 10, 2003
Messages
560
Location
New Jersey
Snake is probably number 1 if we're going by right now.

His tilts have insane hit boxes, huge damage, and speed.

Add that to the fact he has the best dash attack in the game, KOing power that rivals Ike, an insane jab PLUS ALL OF HIS TRAPS AND GIZMOS.....

He's number one.

This is just my opinion, and I'm not very good at the game yet, but certainly competent enough to see an obscenely good character when I face one.
 

KingDiDiDiddy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
Messages
96
Location
Seattle
I dont like using the expression tier right now as everyone is still exploring all aspects of the game.

However I like to use "Potential" because that helps to describe a characters status as of right now... but is definately can change with the progression of defining the Metagame.

So my opinion of Top Potential are:
Marth
Pit
Snake
Wolf
Toon Link
Olimar

Mid to High (Not High-Mid or Mid-High):
Zelda
DeDeDe
Metaknight
Luigi
Fox
Falco
Lucas
Pikachu
Kirby
Ivysaur (kind of my WTF pick but he can be used very effectively)
R.O.B.
Ike
Lucario
Peach

Note this is merely opinion and the Top potential/Mid to High potential arent listed in any order. I may have left a few out but i just thought of the ones at the top of my head. A lot more characters seem useful.

I dont like listing who is Low or Bottom because it seems like I get a bunch of "NOOOO he isnt that you just have to use him effectively posts."

so yea this is just my opinion
 

ChronoPenguin

Smash Champion
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3DS FC
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Zero suit Samus is interesting.

Down B is a third jump, and the kick is nice too.
Side B is nice.
Gun's range is short and similar in mechanics to ness's pk fire, mixed bag.
F-smash hits forward a good distance and even hits a bit behind you.

looks so far overall better than mario.

Also

DK< Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Sonic, Peach.
 

hoopspr226

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
279
Lol Ganondorf doesn't belong anywhere but dead last on every tier list. He has no speed, less power than the true heavyweights, huge lag on nearly every move, and laughable recovery.

To get a better idea of just how bad he is, let's compare him to Melee Ganondorf, who was only mid tier. What were Melee Ganondorf's strengths? Excellent power, potent aerials with minimal lag due to L-canceling, a few quick moves like his jab and bair, and better than average recovery due to wizard's foot recovery.

Now which of these still remain? None. L-canceling is gone, his jab and back air have twice the startup lag, his power is relatively diminished due to the presence of characters like Ike, his aerials are all very laggy, and his recovery is pitiful. If you get more than 10 feet away from the stage, you are dead. This is especially bad in a game like Brawl, where many characters can recover regardless of where they are on the map.
 

J0K3R

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 16, 2008
Messages
210
Location
New York.
Lol Ganondorf doesn't belong anywhere but dead last on every tier list. He has no speed, less power than the true heavyweights, huge lag on nearly every move, and laughable recovery.

To get a better idea of just how bad he is, let's compare him to Melee Ganondorf, who was only mid tier. What were Melee Ganondorf's strengths? Excellent power, potent aerials with minimal lag due to L-canceling, a few quick moves like his jab and bair, and better than average recovery due to wizard's foot recovery.

Now which of these still remain? None. L-canceling is gone, his jab and back air have twice the startup lag, his power is relatively diminished due to the presence of characters like Ike, his aerials are all very laggy, and his recovery is pitiful. If you get more than 10 feet away from the stage, you are dead. This is especially bad in a game like Brawl, where many characters can recover regardless of where they are on the map.
Ganondorf.... isnt as bad as DK i think lol(worst vertical recovery ever)
 

KingDiDiDiddy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
Messages
96
Location
Seattle
Underrated Characters:

Yoshi: short hop Bair great for building up damage. Uair is **** when characters are at 100-120+ damage. Egg Toss racks up damage. downB usefull but cant be spammed. Egg Roll has been buffed a little

DK - All aerials can be used. Donkey Punch has Super Armor, Buffed Recovery.

Ganondorf - SideB+DownB, Fair, Bair, Uair all effective.


All IMO have potential

i main DK/Yoshi so it may be a little bit of a bias, but i really think they are overlooked... people carry their melee impressions over and automatically call them out as crappy. I think its more people just dont like them as characters than how good they are

now i highly doubt any of them will be at the top/high but i dont think they are worthless
 

hoopspr226

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
279
lol you should play a good ganon he is stronger know and he's moves have great priority.(MINDGAMES PWN)
Lol I actually have played a good Ganon. My brother is a Melee Ganon main, and he agrees he is trash. I really have no idea why Sakurai would nerf him, but he did. (See above reasons)

On the topic of DK, I have to strongly disagree. While by no means a high/top tier, I really don't think he belongs anywhere near the bottom (more like mid or upper low). His upair and back air are both good kill moves, and he received many buffs like faster smashes (which are just as strong/stronger? and work well with the quicker shield drop) and better tilts. In addition, the new physics really help DK. The combo-adverse atmosphere means that he will no longer get trapped in 50-60% combos which absolutely ***** him in melee. Also, his terrible vertical recovery is greatly aided by the extremely generous auto ledge-grab mechanic in Brawl. Those last two weaknesses were probably two of his biggest flaws as a Melee character, and they have now been remedied.

The Japanese have it right with their tier list. (DK is mid-tier on the Japanese Tier posted earlier)
 

PIMPSLAP

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2007
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1,189
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Snakes BAIR
o ok i guess playing styles varies and on a side note rolling just speeds ganon up makes up for he's slow take off
 

aurablaze

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
8
sigh... no love for lucario. i just don't see what you guys don't see in luke. his down-a is amazing, he can chain grab, he has a ton of ko moves, a high priority chargeable projectile, and as he takes punishment he gets STRONGER.
 

One_With_Sumthing

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 7, 2006
Messages
125
Location
Orange County, CA
sigh... no love for lucario. i just don't see what you guys don't see in luke. his down-aerial is amazing, he can chain grab into the forties, he has a ton of ko moves, a high priority chargeable projectile, and as he takes punishment he gets STRONGER.
Or, you could think of it as he is weak and can only get stronger when he takes damage. It's either looking at the glass half full or half empty. :p
 

aurablaze

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 21, 2008
Messages
8
he's at least as strong as the high tier guys. the key to playing as lucario is patience. his dodge covers so much ground that he is almost everywhere at once. for instance, say you try to approach, but are dodged. lucario would proceed to chain grab you with side-b until you hit 40%, at which point you would be able to DI away. then he waits for you to attack again, only to be shield grabbed into a u-throw to a f-air to a d-air. if you aren't heavy, which most of the top tier characters are not, that alone could ko you. if he's hurt, that chance increases. i'm not saying that lucario is the greatest brawler, but he is for **** sure not low. i'm just asking that some of you really good players give him a shot. you won't be disappointed
 

Kietharr

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
28
I think we'll end up with something like (fighters in no order within tiers):

Top:
Wolf
Marth
Pit
Toon Link

Pit is the best of the light attack spamming dps characters because of his insane recovery and he can kill at lower %'s than other light dpsers. Marth actually got a little better from melee so of course he's staying up there. Toon Link is basically a lighter, floaty Marth with projectiles, the difference is much more than fox/falco in melee, there is room for both of them on top. Wolf is arguably better than fox now, he's heavier, not really that much slower, and imo has better b moves as well as unarguably stronger smashes. I personally feel that in a slightly slower metagame wolf is a better pick than fox for the top Star Fox character this time. I'm not giving justification for characters other than the top and bottom.

High:
Snake
Dedede
Fox
Falco
Pokemon Traine
Metaknight
Diddy
Lucas
Olimar
Pikachu
Ike
Zelda/Sheik
Zero Suit Samus
Sonic


Mid:
R.O.B.
Link
Samus
Mario
Luigi
Kirby
G&W
Lucario
DK
Bowser
Wario
Captain Falcon
Peach
Ness

Bottom:
Yoshi
Gannondorf
Jigglypuff

Yoshi got better from melee, but a bunch of new solid air fighters were added, including Toon Link who does air and projectiles like Yoshi did, in the end hurting him much more than he was helped. Gannondorf was just nerfed pretty badly, that and new, superior heavy fighters like Snake, Ike and Dedede were added, and Bowser/DK got buffed too. Poor green guy got left in the dust. Jigglypuff wasn't exactly what you'd call a good character in melee, but now rest got nerfed and a bunch of light damage dealers with amazing recovery were added, Jiggly just got left in the dust. Hope I didn't forget anyone.
 

KingDiDiDiddy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 14, 2008
Messages
96
Location
Seattle
I think we'll end up with something like (fighters in no order within tiers):

Top:
Wolf
Marth
Pit
Toon Link

Pit is the best of the light attack spamming dps characters because of his insane recovery and he can kill at lower %'s than other light dpsers. Marth actually got a little better from melee so of course he's staying up there. Toon Link is basically a lighter, floaty Marth with projectiles, the difference is much more than fox/falco in melee, there is room for both of them on top. Wolf is arguably better than fox now, he's heavier, not really that much slower, and imo has better b moves as well as unarguably stronger smashes. I personally feel that in a slightly slower metagame wolf is a better pick than fox for the top Star Fox character this time. I'm not giving justification for characters other than the top and bottom.

High:
Snake
Dedede
Fox
Falco
Pokemon Traine
Metaknight
Diddy
Lucas
Olimar
Pikachu
Ike
Zelda/Sheik
Zero Suit Samus
Sonic


Mid:
R.O.B.
Link
Samus
Mario
Luigi
Kirby
G&W
Lucario
DK
Bowser
Wario
Captain Falcon
Peach
Ness

Bottom:
Yoshi
Gannondorf
Jigglypuff

Yoshi got better from melee, but a bunch of new solid air fighters were added, including Toon Link who does air and projectiles like Yoshi did, in the end hurting him much more than he was helped. Gannondorf was just nerfed pretty badly, that and new, superior heavy fighters like Snake, Ike and Dedede were added, and Bowser/DK got buffed too. Poor green guy got left in the dust. Jigglypuff wasn't exactly what you'd call a good character in melee, but now rest got nerfed and a bunch of light damage dealers with amazing recovery were added, Jiggly just got left in the dust. Hope I didn't forget anyone.
This looks good... except i would move Yoshi to Mid... Link to Bottom... and Kirby to High.... Oh and Olimar to Top
 
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