Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Kiwikomix]

Let's look here. There's a whole lot of characters that keep fighting for low-mid, and not all of them can get there. These characters include Luigi, Mario, Ness, Peach, Pokemon Trainer, Sheik, and Sonic. That's seven characters besides the semi-established lows and bottoms (Samus, Link, Yoshi, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Bowser) that want to be considered low-mid. In all reality, two or three of them will actually be there.

So, to all you people who play those seven characters and keep saying that they're great, please don't expect low-mid to be a compromise, because it absolutely isn't.

Edit: Seriously, what's up with Pikachu and Toonie? Their tournament results are awful but they're still considered to be in high or upper high tier.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Let's look here. There's a whole lot of characters that keep fighting for low-mid, and not all of them can get there. These characters include Luigi, Mario, Ness, Peach, Pokemon Trainer, Sheik, and Sonic. That's seven characters besides the semi-established lows and bottoms (Samus, Link, Yoshi, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Bowser) that want to be considered low-mid. In all reality, two or three of them will actually be there.

So, to all you people who play those seven characters and keep saying that they're great, please don't expect low-mid to be a compromise, because it absolutely isn't.

Edit: Seriously, what's up with Pikachu and Toonie? Their tournament results are awful but they're still considered to be in high or upper high tier.

No idea, TL is just flat out not played at all. I know I see some Pikachus and there's Anther, but one man can only do so much for a whole character's tournament results.


This is why I dropped this slightly on my personal Mock Tier list.

 

[rm88]

EDIT: Bad quoting >_<

That's exactly why most people think Peach is bad. Peach is not a weaker version of her Melee counterpart, she has to be played in a completely different way. Her moves look the same, but they definitely aren't. It's impossible to play a Melee Peach in Brawl and viceversa. Most ex-Peach mains tried to play her that way, and concluded she sucks. That being said, I think she should be mid tier.

 

[Kiwikomix]

That being said, I think she should be mid tier.

Please see my last post.

 

[Theftz22]

rm88, he was talking about sheik.

And a good sheik will be able to finish you. And if all else fails her best kill move is down-B.

 

[Gindler]

But yeah I think Pika should be in Mid tier since people have figured out how to DI out of the Dsmash (what was his most annoying one) I don't think I've ever been killed from a Fsmash or hit that much from them actually, so his only decent one anymore is his uber powerful Usmash. His Fair and Dair are both pretty bad, Uair Nair and Bair all **** though. That CG of his might put him in low of High tier though, Not sure though.

 

[Kiwikomix]

Eh, it seems to me like Pikachu's aerial game was severely nerfed from Melee. The loss of uair semi-spike was sad. Overall he's not as fun to use in Brawl as he was in Melee. But I guess that could be said of every character...

 

[Gindler]

Yeah that Uair spikish thing from melee would always **** my yoshi's recovery, not it doesn't really do anything but it's still useful, I think what people focused on was the increase of speed in the Nuetral B and the uber lag reduction in Down B.

 

[Blistering Speed]

GUyz h3r3z mai 1d34'z 4 t13rz111!!1
1. Y0sh1 4 h1gH c05 0f w4v3d45h
2. Z55 4 t0p c05 0f b00b5
3. CF FTW c05 0f P4wn(H + M41 fr13nd 1z 4m4z1n VV1t h1m

*VV11_1_ UpD473 L83r*

 

[Pieisthebest]

GUyz h3r3z mai 1d34'z 4 t13rz111!!1
1. Y0sh1 4 h1gH c05 0f w4v3d45h
2. Z55 4 t0p c05 0f b00b5
3. CF FTW c05 0f P4wn(H + M41 fr13nd 1z 4m4z1n VV1t h1m

*VV11_1_ UpD473 L83r*

What is this I dont even. You left out Old man winters >:o
He is top tier cuz hes strong

 

[Anytime_Minutes]

TOP:

Snake (Obvious)
Meta Knight (Also obvious)
Mr. Game & Watch (His priority is godlike, and he's very powerful for such a light character)
Marth (Sakurai forgot to nerf him, it seems)
Falco (Laser lock and chain grab make an already good character even better)
R.O.B (Being among the most hated Brawl characters doesn't make you bottom tier)

HIGH:

King Dedede (His recovery is amazing for such a big character. Oh, and chain grabs)
Toon Link (His dair gives people nightmares, and he can rack up damage quickly)
Pikachu (Light, but fast. Also, he has powerful attacks and good recovery)
Ice Climbers (Nana finally grew a brain)
Wolf (He's deadly, but his recovery isn't the best)
Captian Olimar (He's almost scary, but his ****** recovery keeps him out of the top tiers)
Kirby (He's not quite back to his godlike N64 incarnation, but he's still good)
Pit (I hate him, but his recovery is great, and he racks up crazy damage)
Wario (Really unpredictable. His many tourney wins also help his placement)


MIDDLE:

Zelda (Slow and light, but she has a spammy projectile and powerful killing moves)
Donkey Kong (He's a beast in both ways)
Fox (Nerfed, but at least he feels like a character instead of a monster)
Diddy Kong (Unpredictable. Yes, he's good even without bananas)
Lucario (His attacks become stronger as his damage goes up, and he's good even at 0%)
Luigi (A wacky character with powerful attacks and various recovery options)
Zero Suit Samus (Fast, agile, and has the ability to distract perverted opponents)
Lucas (Powerful smashes make up for him being a magnet for chain grabbers)
Bowser (His attacks are surprisingly fast, he's heavy and strong, and he has Bowsercide)
Mario (A solid, all-around man with no real strengths or weaknesses)
Yoshi (His primary weakness in Melee has been fixed, making him decent)
Ness (Has a tougher time escaping grabs than Lucas, but he's still a powerful kid)

LOW:

Shiek (Fast and agile, but a bad killer)
Peach (Lackluster vertical recovery, but still a force to be reckoned with)
Ike (Great at room-clearing, but he's slow and very predictable)
Pokemon Trainer (You can't use just one, but the Pokemon themselves are okay)
Sonic (Awful priority and slow smashes destroy an otherwise good character)
Samus (Nerfed. There is nothing else to say)
Link (Wow. He's never been above Middle in any good tier list. Poor guy)

BOTTOM:

Jigglypuff (Easy as hell to kill, and other characters have better WOPs)
Ganondorf (He's super strong, but slower than a dying snail in the desert)
Captian Falcon (Take the bad aspects from Sonic and Ganon, then combine them)

I 99% agree with you. Put Ganondorf in the bottom low tier, and put samus on the bottom tier. Also Id put Mr Game and Watch over Meta knight. You can only fall for dsmash and upb so many times before the way meta knight is played becomes predictable

 

[Foxy_Marth]

Eh, it seems to me like Pikachu's aerial game was severely nerfed from Melee. The loss of uair semi-spike was sad. Overall he's not as fun to use in Brawl as he was in Melee. But I guess that could be said of every character...

Severely???? Not even, basically buffed, QAC is amazing now. If hee even had it in Melee?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I 99% agree with you. Put Ganondorf in the bottom low tier, and put samus on the bottom tier. Also Id put Mr Game and Watch over Meta knight. You can only fall for dsmash and upb so many times before the way meta knight is played becomes predictable

You can predict it all you want, but Metaknight is still going to hit you because he is just that **** fast

 

[Plum]

I 99% agree with you. Put Ganondorf in the bottom low tier, and put samus on the bottom tier. Also Id put Mr Game and Watch over Meta knight. You can only fall for dsmash and upb so many times before the way meta knight is played becomes predictable

I main G&W, and I say he is just as predictable. Bair approach, rack up damage with those many hitting disjointed hitboxes, some dthrow techchasing, that sums up most G&W's. But it doesn't matter how predictable he is, Snappy is going to eat your shield anyways

 

[Browny]

G&W above MK definitely. take MK's range, priority, recovery and replace his pitiful smashes with the 2nd most powerful smash attack moveset in the game and theres G&W. Oh, and give him a spike. I cant think of any reason why MK is rated better than G&W, when g&w does everything MK does, and kills 50-60% eariler

 

[Nestec]

GUyz h3r3z mai 1d34'z 4 t13rz111!!1
1. Y0sh1 4 h1gH c05 0f w4v3d45h
2. Z55 4 t0p c05 0f b00b5
3. CF FTW c05 0f P4wn(H + M41 fr13nd 1z 4m4z1n VV1t h1m

*VV11_1_ UpD473 L83r*

Omg, lol, that just melted my eyes...

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

G&W above MK definitely. take MK's range, priority, recovery and replace his pitiful smashes with the 2nd most powerful smash attack moveset in the game and theres G&W. Oh, and give him a spike. I cant think of any reason why MK is rated better than G&W, when g&w does everything MK does, and kills 50-60% eariler

MaW doesn't have **** on Metaknight's recovery. Sure G&W is good, but MK is on a completely different level than a wide majority of the cast. Remind me whenMaW can straight gimp you off the stage by pushing you all the way to the KO barrier. You really think F and Dsmash are pathetic? I really pity you then when he basicially wrecks any attempt of trying to roll/approach him from the ground. Also, MaW mains rarely if ever spike with the key considering they usually use it a good distance above the opponent, not to mention in some cases they risk putting themselves in danger. Maybe the fact that MK in comparison to G&W has been dominating (Not quite on the level of Snake) and Tier lists are based off the present, not the future, and when that is a major factor in the creation of them, what say really does MaW have over him. Not to mention, the fact that MaW kills earlier in slightly irrelevant when MK can rack up the damage at a faster pace than just about any other character in the game. In terms of Matchups they both **** the cast fairly easy, but I'll give a very slight advantage to MaW considering his counter if found less frequently in Tournaments. MaW does NOT have everything MK has, does NOT do them better, and not to mention, the candle stick is pretty overated as well. Not to mention, MaW gets even more predictable than MK with the Key, tech chasing with Dthrow to Hammer/Candlestick, the turtle which in some situation if you can time and read the hits of the turtle you can shieldgrab/dashgrab him because of the slight lag Bair suffer when you hit the ground, and the occasional Fair, Uair stalling, and Hammer/Sewer lid abuse.


Snake is 1st, MK is 2nd.


As of right now in the Metagame, this is FACT

 

[DanGR]

Yeah, um...MK+Snake>>>cast. There is no questioning it.

 

[Anytime_Minutes]

MaW doesn't have **** on Metaknight's recovery. Sure G&W is good, but MK is on a completely different level than a wide majority of the cast. Remind me whenMaW can straight gimp you off the stage by pushing you all the way to the KO barrier. You really think F and Dsmash are pathetic? I really pity you then when he basicially wrecks any attempt of trying to roll/approach him from the ground. Also, MaW mains rarely if ever spike with the key considering they usually use it a good distance above the opponent, not to mention in some cases they risk putting themselves in danger. Maybe the fact that MK in comparison to G&W has been dominating (Not quite on the level of Snake) and Tier lists are based off the present, not the future, and when that is a major factor in the creation of them, what say really does MaW have over him. Not to mention, the fact that MaW kills earlier in slightly irrelevant when MK can rack up the damage at a faster pace than just about any other character in the game. In terms of Matchups they both **** the cast fairly easy, but I'll give a very slight advantage to MaW considering his counter if found less frequently in Tournaments. MaW does NOT have everything MK has, does NOT do them better, and not to mention, the candle stick is pretty overated as well. Not to mention, MaW gets even more predictable than MK with the Key, tech chasing with Dthrow to Hammer/Candlestick, the turtle which in some situation if you can time and read the hits of the turtle you can shieldgrab/dashgrab him because of the slight lag Bair suffer when you hit the ground, and the occasional Fair, Uair stalling, and Hammer/Sewer lid abuse.


Snake is 1st, MK is 2nd.


As of right now in the Metagame, this is FACT

So, i know i play good meta knights. they just all seem to same.
Care to prove me wrong?

 

[Anytime_Minutes]

haha, i like your name for the forward smash. Candlestick :D

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

So, i know i play good meta knights. they just all seem to same.
Care to prove me wrong?

IN a wide perspective, yes, most Metaknights will look similar.


But if you look very closely at the smaller things such as the spacing and timing and fakeouts in edgeguarding, you can normally gauge how good the MK is.

 

[Gindler]

Snake mains = half the smashers that live near me....now. Curse these tier lists alloying people to know who's "best" *shakes fist at the sky*

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Snake mains = half the smashers that live near me....now. Curse these tier lists alloying people to know who's "best" *shakes fist at the sky*

Who cares? Tier whores generally suck anywho, beating them is no hard task.

 

[doodmahn]

Um, can someone just post the generally agreed upon tier list (so far) so I don't have to wade through all of the biased crap?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Um, can someone just post the generally agreed upon tier list (so far) so I don't have to wade through all of the biased crap?

That's the problem, there WON'T be a generally accepted one becuase there's always someone who wants their main placed higher, it's impossible really at this point in time.

 

[Blackbelt]

That's the problem, there WON'T be a generally accepted one becuase there's always someone who wants their main placed higher, it's impossible really at this point in time.

Sadly, this is so true.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I main Fox and I am totally happy with where he's placed in regards to some of the more...legible tier lists that pop up around here. Many of the people here rank Fox as nothing short of somewhere in mid-tier, which makes total sense. He isn't that great of a character: Mediocre (if not somewhat bad) approach, can't camp very well because of nerfed lasers, and...well, you get the idea.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I main Fox and I am totally happy with where he's placed in regards to some of the more...legible tier lists that pop up around here. Many of the people here rank Fox as nothing short of somewhere in mid-tier, which makes total sense. He isn't that great of a character: Mediocre (if not somewhat bad) approach, can't camp very well because of nerfed lasers, and...well, you get the idea.

Smooth Criminal

I haven't seen a very legible tier list for quite awhile in the topic buddy >_>.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I haven't seen a very legible tier list for quite awhile in the topic buddy >_>.

Well, you should know which ones I'm implying.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Shanky]

That's the problem, there WON'T be a generally accepted one becuase there's always someone who wants their main placed higher, it's impossible really at this point in time.

I never understood that. I would rather have my main lower...that way it feels so much better when you beat a Snake or MK!

 

[Browny]

lol @ NSS getting crazy defensive over MK. and enough with the 150/100 % argument. that doesnt really apply when character like snake can do 100% in 5 attacks. any character with a good projecile game can slow MK down a lot. which of course doesnt apply to G&W at all when turtle just eats though everything.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

lol @ NSS getting crazy defensive over MK. and enough with the 150/100 % argument. that doesnt really apply when character like snake can do 100% in 5 attacks. any character with a good projecile game can slow MK down a lot. which of course doesnt apply to G&W at all when turtle just eats though everything.

Now're your basicially saying MK is campable? What? Almost every single knowledgable player you will meet on this board will tell you that MK is one of if not the best approacher in this game. Saying projectiles can slow him down is kinda dumb, considering most non-explosive projectiles the Tornado can eat through, and why would the MK even NEED the Tornado in that situation, his stature and overall speed and the way he was created just makes him impossible to camp, espiacially at the higher skill levels of play. The only one I would give you is Falco, Snake and maybe ROB, and even then, it's still probably an even matchup for similar reasons why it's even for Marth, they both outclass him in CQC.

Link/Toon Link? Outprioritizes everything outside of a Bomb
Olimar? Tornado can eat through pikmin and can be batted away with ftilts.
Zelda? Like you and IIRC DanGR stated in the Matchup topic "Easy to dodge"
Lucario? As long as you don't set yourself up for it, Aura sphere is not a big deal at all. Baby ones can get outprioritzed by the tornado, and some fully charged ones at lower percents can be canceled out by his dash attack.
Sheik? lol
Pit? Once again, unless fully charged, arrow will not break through Tornado. I will admit that Looped arrows when done good enough can annoy enough to the point of causing spacing mistkaes

Those characters for the most part have some of, if not the best camping tools in the game, and yet Metaknight can still render them mostly useless.



About the Snake thing, for Snake to rack up damage like that quick, he'd have to constantly get lucky with his opponent making lolbad spacing mistakes and allowing him to constantly land nair and Ftilts over and over again.Metaknight can basicially do whatever he wants in said situation as long as it's viable and you can't really do all that much in terms of dodging because eventually, he'll hit you, no matter how good you are or how good your spacing really is.

And once again i'll state, if you can memorize how many hits the turtle has, read MaW when he lands, and if you character is quick enoughm he can be dash grabbed or even shield grabbed. You also ignored probably the biggest reason as well, the point of tournament results. When MK has such a massive lead on MaW because of that, you can't really even consider placing anyone above him aside from Snake with that kind of ridiculous gap. Maybe when MaW can actually enclose that gap, then we'll see, but as for now, it really shouldn't even be disputed at this point in time.

 

[Onxy]

I would love to see PT higher, he only deserves the best.

 

[Corigames]

I don't understand people who WANT their character to be higher. I would rather kick *** with a low tiered character, even if they shouldn't be there in the first place

 

[The Real Inferno]

lol @ NSS getting crazy defensive over MK. and enough with the 150/100 % argument. that doesnt really apply when character like snake can do 100% in 5 attacks. any character with a good projecile game can slow MK down a lot. which of course doesnt apply to G&W at all when turtle just eats though everything.

I've come to the conclusion that's no mere turtle he is weilding there, but rather it is GAMARA DEFENDER OF CHILDREN.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamara

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I don't understand people who WANT their character to be higher. I would rather kick *** with a low tiered character, even if they shouldn't be there in the first place

I always thought people wanted their character higher because they know things about that character that people with other mains may not know about them. This leads them to believe they are better than they really are. A proper tier list can't be made as long as people hold bias for their character.

 

[Corigames]

I would rather withold info about my character; this way, I can show up to a tourny and have people laugh when they see me playing a "low-tier," but then I kick their ***. Also, people don't expect the matchup and, therefore, don't practice for it.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

But by withholding info you aren't helping your characters standings at all. You might get a round or two farther but it's easier to counter something than it is to be creative.

 

[Corigames]

but it's easier to counter something than it is to be creative.

Except when you have to creatively counter

 

[DKKountry]

Terios is a Smash communist; he wants what is best for the character's standing i.e. the mother country.
coreygames is a Smash capitalist; he wants what is best for his pwn personal business; i.e. this is my gas station that is not a part of a chain and will be taken over by the bigger chains eventually.


Terios.... you disgust me you communist b@sturd.


Just playing!