Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Metaknight in Snake Tier made me explode in laugher >_>

 

[A2ZOMG]

Why Ivysaur fails and why I now think it's the worst character in Brawl:

1. verrry bad damage output
2. horrible horrible air game
3. situational kill moves
4. no recovery
5. Projectile is bad, so doesn't really compensate for other weaknesses.

 

[TehBo49]

We had a huge argument about 50 pages back about Ivysaur. We eventually came to a general consensus that Ivysaur was low tier. I personally feel the worst character is Captain Falcon. No approach, no priority, no projectile, & no KO moves.

 

[SaxDude93]

I second that C.Falcon is the worst character in Brawl. Sadly

His only good match-up is Squirtle. At least Ivysaur betas Falcon.

 

[Shök]

So True.
CF got nerfed more than Peach and Fox.

Regardless, Marth, Toon Link, MK and Snake should all be top tier.

Marth should be 1st..and the other 3 in any order.

LOL @ Snake not being in the snake tier, ganon in 2 tiers and ike being used like 5 times.

 

[SaxDude93]

So True.
CF got nerfed more than Peach and Fox.

Regardless, Marth, Toon Link, MK and Snake should all be top tier.

Marth should be 1st..and the other 3 in any order.

LOL @ Snake not being in the snake tier, ganon in 2 tiers and ike being used like 5 times.

I disagree. Snake has a better match-up over Marth according to the chart. (I'm not saying Marth sucks. Marth is top tier for sure. I'm just saying in a 1v1, Snake is a Marth counter.)

 

[Shök]

BTW, there's no way to know who is where till the list is out.

Snake could be the best character in the game competitive-wise.
So could Marth
So could MK

We all know these are the top tier people, but there's no way of telling right now.

Ike looks like high tier potential but he probably will end up in the Mid tier/Low tier.

Forget Fox, shiek, Peach and CF.
They're gone.

 

[powell651234]

Dear God, No

*gasps for air while dying a painful, nervous spasm filled death*

MK at lower tier. No. No. No. I'm sorry, but you're an idiot. Probably the biggest idiot on this forum. At least other n00b tier lists have MK on top. Right now, MK is the second best character in the game, right after Snake. Mk has great priority, speed, damage rack-up-ness, recovery, DJ hitboxes, match-ups, and tourney data.

Tink>Link. Tink is way better than normal Link. Tink does everything Link does, but better. Wario is mid tier at least. And how many times do I have to say this: IKE IS NOT HIGH TIER

Falco is top tier, many people agree. And Samus is low ter.

And Snake is listed twice becasue he is too awesome to only be listed once.

I would love to watch you get wrecked by one of the few great Link players...

I'm not one of them.

But I'm sure I could wreck you as Marth or Samus.

I know you probably hate Samus because you think she has no KO power, but that is probably because your are some offensively obsessed n00b. Samus bair is very strong when hit with precision. Tilt down and Smash down can be devastating when used interchangably. Her spike is one of the best in the game. Her f-smash is solid. Her two punch a combo is incredibly useful. Her running attack has very high priority. Her b attacks are actually all useful. A good Samus player manipulates the entire match, is nearly impossible to KO, and slowly picks apart their opponent. Whether I use fair and zair to never let you near me, or just overwhelm you with my complete precision, the fight wouldn't be close.

 

[Shök]

Quote:
I disagree. Snake has a better match-up over Marth according to the chart. (I'm not saying Marth sucks.
Marth is top tier for sure. I'm just saying in a 1v1, Snake is a Marth counter.)
-Sax Dude93

Really?

I'd say they're even.
Their ground game has relatively the same speed and is fairly even.
Marth dominates the air.
Snake has alot of projectiles.
If the marth can close the distance and use his counter to block all snakes shots, its his match.
If snake can use his projectiles at will and keep marth away, it's his match.

I'm not saying snake is bad either, in fact, he's top tier for sure, too. Just in my opinion, It's an equal Match.

 

[Yuna-Maria]

I would love to watch you get wrecked by one of the few great Link players...

I'm not one of them.

But I'm sure I could wreck you as Marth or Samus.

I know you probably hate Samus because you think she has no KO power, but that is probably because your are some offensively obsessed n00b. Samus bair is very strong when hit with precision. Tilt down and Smash down can be devastating when used interchangably. Her spike is one of the best in the game. Her f-smash is solid. Her two punch a combo is incredibly useful. Her running attack has very high priority. Her b attacks are actually all useful. A good Samus player manipulates the entire match, is nearly impossible to KO, and slowly picks apart their opponent. Whether I use fair and zair to never let you near me, or just overwhelm you with my complete precision, the fight wouldn't be close.

As a Samus main, I urge you from the bottom of my heart to PLEASE shut the hell up.

 

[Shök]

Yes Yes Yes!!!!!!!

 

[SaxDude93]

I would love to watch you get wrecked by one of the few great Link players...

I'm not one of them.

But I'm sure I could wreck you as Marth or Samus.

I know you probably hate Samus because you think she has no KO power, but that is probably because your are some offensively obsessed n00b. Samus bair is very strong when hit with precision. Tilt down and Smash down can be devastating when used interchangably. Her spike is one of the best in the game. Her f-smash is solid. Her two punch a combo is incredibly useful. Her running attack has very high priority. Her b attacks are actually all useful. A good Samus player manipulates the entire match, is nearly impossible to KO, and slowly picks apart their opponent. Whether I use fair and zair to never let you near me, or just overwhelm you with my complete precision, the fight wouldn't be close.

The key word there is FEW. As a whole, Link isn't that good. He is outclassed by Tink. The fact is that Tink does everything regular Link does, but better. And yes a good Link player could **** me. In fact, Any good player could **** me.

Oh and your Samus explanation fits Snake perfectly. (Who I main) Lets compare the two in the abilities you listed.

Samus:
-Good 2 Hit combo
-Good B-Air if the timing is good
-Good Spike
-Good F-Smash
-High Dash Attack priority
-B-Attacks are good
-Mindgames, Pressure, and Control

Snake
-His AAA is beastly. (Seriously, it shouldn't be able to do that)
-Snake's B-Air is good without timing. (But Snake's Ground>Air. I'll give you that)
-Meh
-Snake's F-TILT is more hax than Samus' F-Smash will ever be
-Snake has hax priority on all of his ground moves. (And Mortarsliding)
-Snake's B-Attacks>Samus' B-Attacks
-Snake has the best Mindgames, Pressure, and Control in the game

ANd Snake has better match-ups, recovery, and stuff like that.

Quote:
I disagree. Snake has a better match-up over Marth according to the chart. (I'm not saying Marth sucks.
Marth is top tier for sure. I'm just saying in a 1v1, Snake is a Marth counter.)
-Sax Dude93

Really?

I'd say they're even.
Their ground game has relatively the same speed and is fairly even.
Marth dominates the air.
Snake has alot of projectiles.
If the marth can close the distance and use his counter to block all snakes shots, its his match.
If snake can use his projectiles at will and keep marth away, it's his match.

I'm not saying snake is bad either, in fact, he's top tier for sure, too. Just in my opinion, It's an equal Match.

I'll give you that both Marth and Snake are hax. the thing is Snake's ground game has more options and priority than Marth's. (Not sure on Priority. I need clarification.) Marth>Snake in air. No contest. The thing is, a good Snake won't let Marth get close. He will control the field to whatever whim Snake wants. But again, Snake and Marth are both top tier for sure.

 

[Grunt]

this is my own tier list! :D
or in other words NOOBS TIER LIST IN A NUTSHELL

SNAKE TIER
random garbage character
metaknight

GOD TIER
wolf
random garbage character
pit
random garbage character
snake

HIGH TIER
ike
ganondorf
ike
fox
ike
marth
ike
ike

EVERYONE ELSE TIER
everyone else

MEWTWO TIER
ganondorf
olimar
wario

You sir, win the internet.

 

[Kirin]

The key word there is FEW. As a whole, Link isn't that good. He is outclassed by Tink. The fact is that Tink does everything regular Link does, but better. And yes a good Link player could **** me. In fact, Any good player could **** me.

Oh and your Samus explanation fits Snake perfectly. (Who I main) Lets compare the two in the abilities you listed.

Samus:
-Good 2 Hit combo
-Good B-Air if the timing is good
-Good Spike
-Good F-Smash
-High Dash Attack priority
-B-Attacks are good
-Mindgames, Pressure, and Control

Snake
-His AAA is beastly. (Seriously, it shouldn't be able to do that)
-Snake's B-Air is good without timing. (But Snake's Ground>Air. I'll give you that)
-Meh
-Snake's F-TILT is more hax than Samus' F-Smash will ever be
-Snake has hax priority on all of his ground moves. (And Mortarsliding)
-Snake's B-Attacks>Samus' B-Attacks
-Snake has the best Mindgames, Pressure, and Control in the game

ANd Snake has better match-ups, recovery, and stuff like that.



I'll give you that both Marth and Snake are hax. the thing is Snake's ground game has more options and priority than Marth's. (Not sure on Priority. I need clarification.) Marth>Snake in air. No contest. The thing is, a good Snake won't let Marth get close. He will control the field to whatever whim Snake wants. But again, Snake and Marth are both top tier for sure.

Snake can keep Marth away with all of his projectiles, and what happens when Marth happens to finally get in close? Oh right, he mortarslides away. :/

And I agree with Grunt. Payasofobia, you win the internets.

 

[SaxDude93]

Snake can keep Marth away with all of his projectiles, and what happens when Marth happens to finally get in close? Oh right, he mortarslides away. :/

And I agree with Grunt. Payasofobia, you win the internets.

When Marth gets in close Snake can

-Grenade Counter
-AAA
-Ftilt
-Utilt
-Then he can Mortarslide

 

[Kiwikomix]

The only possible way for Snake to have any trouble with an approaching Marth is if Marth somehow gets past the grenades and rockets, manages to dodge the mines on the ground, and lands an f-smash just out of Snake's range. The number of times that will happen is approximately 1/2

 

[Ratherion]

Why Ivysaur fails and why I now think it's the worst character in Brawl:

1. verrry bad damage output
2. horrible horrible air game
3. situational kill moves
4. no recovery
5. Projectile is bad, so doesn't really compensate for other weaknesses.

1. Yeah... 50 damage in one move kinda sucks.
2. Yeah, his air moves suck, exept for his bair, his uair, his fair and his dair.
3. He's only got seven.
4. I don't like grabbing the edge from half the course away either.
5. I agree, the fact that it blocks most projectiles, goes through them, does decent damage and exellent range is kinda annoying.

I dare you to play my Ivysaur.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Even if you do play him, what good will that do for Ivysaur's presumed Tier placing? Absolutely nothing.

 

[SaxDude93]

Even if you do play him, what good will that do for Ivysaur's presumed Tier placing? Absolutely nothing.

SECOND'D. Personal experience means nothing. It's he character as a whole.

 

[Ratherion]

You guys are missing the point, I'm simply arguing that he is in fact NOT the worst character in Brawl, as he stated.

 

[SaxDude93]

You guys are missing the point, I'm simply arguing that he is in fact NOT the worst character in Brawl, as he stated.

And we agreed 50 pages back that Ivysaur wasn't the worst in Brawl. C. Falcon is much worse.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Well he certainly isn't worse than CF >_>. But he's down there. Once again Matchups (And not only basing on the Matchup chart here) and Tourney output with the other two pokes.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Quote:
I disagree. Snake has a better match-up over Marth according to the chart. (I'm not saying Marth sucks.
Marth is top tier for sure. I'm just saying in a 1v1, Snake is a Marth counter.)
-Sax Dude93

Really?

I'd say they're even.
Their ground game has relatively the same speed and is fairly even.
Marth dominates the air.
Snake has alot of projectiles.
If the marth can close the distance and use his counter to block all snakes shots, its his match.
If snake can use his projectiles at will and keep marth away, it's his match.

I'm not saying snake is bad either, in fact, he's top tier for sure, too. Just in my opinion, It's an equal Match.

The difference is Snake can fight at any range, whereas Marth has to approach/fight in close range. Snake does have some trouble against Marth since he's got a sword, but his tilts are still strong/ranged enough to compensate in the long run, but Marth has far more trouble, since he can't swat down any of Snake's projectiles (I'm pretty sure nikita would go right through it)

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth doesn't care about Snake's projectiles. And Marth outranges Snake, except for the second hit of his f-tilt. But Snake isn't going to be randomly throwing out f-tilts in the hopes of landing that second hit.

Marth's fair can beat out the Snake dash.

The only reason I call this match slightly in Snakes favor is becuase he lives longer and Marth dies sooner so Marth cant afford to screw up too many times, while Snake has more room for error.

Snake doesn't **** Marth by any means. It's just slightly in his favor.

Also no, Snake doesn't have more options then Marth on the ground. That's silly to say.

Their options are equal.

 

[SaxDude93]

Marth doesn't care about Snake's projectiles. And Marth outranges Snake, except for the second hit of his f-tilt. But Snake is going to be randomly throwing out f-tilts in the hopes of landing that second hit.

Marth's fair can beat out the Snake dash.

The only reason I call this match slightly in Snakes favor is becuase he leaves longer and Marth dies sooner so Marth cant afford to screw up too many times, while Snake ahs more room for error.

Snake doesn't **** Marth by any means. It's just slightly in his favor.

Also no, Snake doesn't have more options then Marth on the ground. That's silly to say.

Their options are equal.

Don't forget U-tilt. And projectiles.

 

[Tien2500]

1. Yeah... 50 damage in one move kinda sucks.
2. Yeah, his air moves suck, exept for his bair, his uair, his fair and his dair.
3. He's only got seven.
4. I don't like grabbing the edge from half the course away either.
5. I agree, the fact that it blocks most projectiles, goes through them, does decent damage and exellent range is kinda annoying.

I dare you to play my Ivysaur.

1. I don't think Bullet seed quite does 50 damage. Its very situational and can be DIed out of.
2. His Bair isn't that good. His Uair is good but very telegraphed. Dair is also telegraphed. His Fair just isn't that good. Not terrible but not that good. He also doesn't maneuver that well in the air which renders his air game a bit weak.
3. Seven KO moves? Lets see... Usmash is telegraphed and very situational. Fsmash is situational too. Uair is probably the best option and is still telegraphed. Dsmash doesn't really KO that well... What are the others? Dair and F-air sort of work but are mediocre. Dasm attack can kill but only it its fresh and really only on lighter characters.
4. Half the course away? Did you find some way to extend vine whip's range that I'm unaware of? Also if your opponent is grabbing the ledge you can't making Ivysaur easily gimpable.
5. Compared to other projectiles its not that good. I don't believe it goes through most projectiles. Its range is not excellent and I believe its shorter than most projectiles. Its kind of slow. Its decent enough but compare it to Pit's arrows, Wolf's laser, Din's fire, or even Pikachu's thundershock and it falls short. Still better than no projectile.

 

[Ratherion]

Tipped Vine Whip is a KO at 130. And technically every single move in the game is situational.

 

[Emblem Lord]

U-tilt isn't too hard too avoid getting hit with and Marth contends with Snakes projectiles quite well.

 

[Grunt]

Tipped Vine Whip is a KO at 130. And technically every single move in the game is situational.

But racking them up 130% is his problem.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Tien2500 basically summed up what I wanted to say about Ivysaur.

Other horrible characters like Ganondorf have good damage output and non-telegraphed kill moves.

Actually I dunno at this point. I've been hearing from Inui that Captain Falcon isn't actually that bad, probably because his speed allows for some sort of camping/pressuring game. I'd assume Sonic has stuff like that going for him too. Inui said Ganondorf was the worst, which I disagree with when I compare him to Ivysaur. So I dunno, I guess I was just left with Ivysaur to pick on at this point. =P

I've not seen any impressive Ivysaur footage...which doesn't help matters at all.

Yeah, I'm one confused as hell guy right now. XD

 

[G U R U]

Tipped Vine Whip is a KO at 130. And technically every single move in the game is situational.

Killing at 130 is bad.

The only top tiers are Metaknight and Snake. Bottom tier is Falcon, Ganon, and Sheik.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sheik isn't bottom tier. <<

Also, G&W is probably top tier.

 

[Grunt]

Killing at 130 is bad.

The only top tiers are Metaknight and Snake. Bottom tier is Falcon, Ganon, and Sheik.

Shiek may not be as good, but she is no way bottom.
Link deserves that spot more.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Killing at 130 is bad.

The only top tiers are Metaknight and Snake. Bottom tier is Falcon, Ganon, and Sheik.

Sheik? I don't think she's bottom tier.....also, G&W and Marth are probably top tier as well as MK and Snake.

 

[Shark Week]

1. I don't think Bullet seed quite does 50 damage. Its very situational and can be DIed out of.
2. His Bair isn't that good. His Uair is good but very telegraphed. Dair is also telegraphed. His Fair just isn't that good. Not terrible but not that good. He also doesn't maneuver that well in the air which renders his air game a bit weak.
3. Seven KO moves? Lets see... Usmash is telegraphed and very situational. Fsmash is situational too. Uair is probably the best option and is still telegraphed. Dsmash doesn't really KO that well... What are the others? Dair and F-air sort of work but are mediocre. Dasm attack can kill but only it its fresh and really only on lighter characters.
4. Half the course away? Did you find some way to extend vine whip's range that I'm unaware of? Also if your opponent is grabbing the ledge you can't making Ivysaur easily gimpable.
5. Compared to other projectiles its not that good. I don't believe it goes through most projectiles. Its range is not excellent and I believe its shorter than most projectiles. Its kind of slow. Its decent enough but compare it to Pit's arrows, Wolf's laser, Din's fire, or even Pikachu's thundershock and it falls short. Still better than no projectile.

1. bullet seed does a minimum of ~40% damage if you space it right. the fact that you can di out of it makes no difference... it does a metric ****-ton of damage if you use it correctly. is fox's laser pointless to use because you can just jump out of the way?

2. bair is really nice. upair is IN NO WAY telegraphed; the only way you could possibly describe it as telegraphed is if you say "well you have to jump up in the air to use it, it's so obvious!" ... which is true for most aerials (in fact, i think it's true for ALL aerials... that's why they're called aerials). dair is not telegraphed either... both moves are actually reasonably quick. fair is pretty good; not the best in the game, but i'd take it over a lot of other character's fairs.

3. ivysaur's kill moves, that i'm aware of, are: upair, fair, upsmash, fsmash, dash attack, and vine whip. and how the hell are those moves situational? the opponent has to be in front of you? that counts as situational to you? i'm getting the feeling that you have no idea what the words "telegraphed" or "situational" mean.

4. ivysaur's tether range is actually very large. at one point i was able to recover when my character was "below" the screen, though part of that was probably because the camera was still somewhat zoomed in. and if someone is edgehogging you, you throw a razor leaf to knock them off, and THEN vine whip. i've successfully counter-edgehogged people this way.

5. razor leaf is a perfectly fine projectile. it either cuts through or cancels out most other projectiles (not including lasers, and fully charged aura/charge shots take two razor leafs to cancel them out). razor leaf is definitely better than wolf's blaster and din's fine. besides, it's what razor leaf sets up for that makes it great, not it's damage. it's not the best projectile in the game, but it is by no means as bad as most people who don't even play pt give it credit for.

 

[TehBo49]

Tien2500 basically summed up what I wanted to say about Ivysaur.

Other horrible characters like Ganondorf have good damage output and non-telegraphed kill moves.

Actually I dunno at this point. I've been hearing from Inui that Captain Falcon isn't actually that bad, probably because his speed allows for some sort of camping/pressuring game. I'd assume Sonic has stuff like that going for him too. Inui said Ganondorf was the worst, which I disagree with when I compare him to Ivysaur. So I dunno, I guess I was just left with Ivysaur to pick on at this point. =P

I've not seen any impressive Ivysaur footage...which doesn't help matters at all.

Yeah, I'm one confused as hell guy right now. XD

Ganondorf can approach, tech chase, combo, & KO. Captain Falcon can do none of those things. That is why Ganondorf is better.

 

[Blubba_Pinecone]

Just a question, who did you play that was so good at link?

Maybe it was me. =]

Anywhoo, I wouldn't say that Link is bottom tier. But not top. For someone who uses him properly I would think for him to be place in mid-midtier to MAYBE higher-midtier. But even that's a stretch when you look at his limitations.

 

[MyReincarnation]

My decent tier list...

Top:

Marth
Snake
Meta Knight
Falco

High:

Wolf
Pit
Toon Link
Olimar
King DeDeDe
Lucas

Med High:

Fox
Diddy Kong
Ness
Charizard
Ike
R.O.B
Peach
Ivysaur
Pikachu

Med:

Mr. Game & Watch
Shiek
Zelda
Lucario
Bowser
Luigi
Zero Suit Samus
Mario
Donkey Kong
Samus
Ice Climbers
Link
Wario
Jigglypuff

Low:

Yoshi
Squirtle
Ganondorf
Kirby
Sonic
Captain Falcon

 

[Browny]

oh no....

/me hands you a flame shield

 

[Emperor Time]

Top:
Marth
Wolf
Falco

High:
Pit
Toon Link
Olimar
King DeDeDe
Lucas
Snake

Med High:
Fox
Shiek
Diddy Kong
Ness
Charizard
Ike
Zelda
Peach
Ivysaur
Captain Falcon

Med:
Pikachu
Lucario
Luigi
Zero Suit Samus
Mario
Meta Knight
Donkey Kong
Yoshi
Samus
Link
Mr. Game and Watch

Low:
Ganondorf
Bowser
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Wario
Jigglypuff

Bottom:
Squirtle
Sonic

RUN, BOI!!!!!