Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[BDawgPHD]

I honestly believe people greatly underestimate Ganondorf's abilities. Autocancelling a dair to upsmash combo to do 50%+ must mean something, along with the flame choke which is fast AND goes through shields, which leads to his other combos, let alone chaingrabbing with the flamechoke or Tipman spiking for edgeguarding.

Also, Ganoncides.

Compared to other heavy strong characters, like Bowser and DK, he just falls short. He has a better vertical recovery than both, but his range sucks, his speed sucks, and his power is about the same, possibly marginally better at best.

 

[Blackshadow]

Ganon has amazing range, just check out his forward tilt. Autocancel his dairs and upairs, use dash attack for that little boost of running speed and sideB has almost no lag even if you miss with it. And while I don't follow the Bowser/DK scene, I'm sure they don't have a 50% or so two hit combo like Ganon does. DK also lacks a suicide move.

It just seems that people don't look at Ganon before putting him at the bottom of almost every tier list, he certainly should be at least mid-low tier, IMO.

 

[Corigames]

Well, the problem is, someone has to be at the bottom. Eventually there will be a list and there will be people complaining that characters are overhyped or underplaced, and there will be no end to the complaining. So, just think about how Ganon works against other characters than just saying he has good moves and suicides... whatever that is suppose to mean to the tournament scene.

I agree mostly that Ganon should be low. I have yet to be impressed by one. He has no way to deal with ranged spam and can be easily dodged. He's slow and has one of the weaker recoveries. All he is is raw power with one good dash move, his forward B. He's not good. When I see him playing against a competent player and winning, then I may reconsider.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Ganon has amazing range, just check out his forward tilt. Autocancel his dairs and upairs, use dash attack for that little boost of running speed and sideB has almost no lag even if you miss with it. And while I don't follow the Bowser/DK scene, I'm sure they don't have a 50% or so two hit combo like Ganon does. DK also lacks a suicide move.

It just seems that people don't look at Ganon before putting him at the bottom of almost every tier list, he certainly should be at least mid-low tier, IMO.

Ganon's range sucks for the startup lag he has for almost every attack. His ftilt is probably the only attack he has that has decent range and not a lot of lag, but that's it. Bowser and DK each control a monstrous amount of space around them with lightning fast jabs and tilts, especially DK. Also, they can actually land just about all of their moves, so they'll tack on 50% far before Ganondorf, even though he has a "50% two hit combo". DK has a monster-gimping throw, too. Does Ganondorf have that? Bowser has a monster edgeguard that tacks on a good 10% almost guaranteed, and can probably go a lot further than that. Does Ganondorf have that?

I have looked at Ganondorf, and he isn't terribly unplayable, but just about every character has something better going for them.

P.S. Coreygames, a good player COULD use Ganondorf against another good player, but he has a lot less room for error, which is why he's bottom. A good player COULD put the right pressure on and contend with other good players, but it would take a lot more work without much reward.

 

[Blackshadow]

http://www.youtube.com/user/tehSANDMAN03

 

[Browny]

you are obviously a great deal better than your friends that you played, so it was hardly a fair indication. very good, but that only shows how ganon can own the really slow characters, which isnt exactly worth much

 

[Blackshadow]

That wasn't me.

 

[Metro Knight]

For those that have to have it framed in the fashion of a tier list, then this is how I would do it. Based on the prior to lists that I posted. I was very surprised by Pikachu, Wario, and Snake. I was very disapointed in Link, and the Pokemon Trainer, people do not seem to have very good opinions of them in the Match Up threads and these characters are lacking in Tournament wins.


Top
Meta Knight:
Snake:
Mr.Game & Watch:
Marth:
R.O.B.:
Toon Link:
Wolf:

High
Falco:
Wario:
Pikachu:
Pikman:
King D3:
Lucario:
Pit:
Kirby:
Ice Climbers:

Middle
Fox:
Diddy:
Lucas:
ZSS:
Ness:
Ike:
Zelda:
Peach:
Donkey Kong:
Sonic:

Low
Sheik:
Link:
Luigi:
Mario:
Ivysaur:
Squirtle:
Jigglypuff:
Bowser:

Bottom
Charizard:
Captain Falcon:
Samus:
Yoshi:
Ganondorf:


Well, I am certainly surprised about how well Pikachu, Wario, and Snake have done in tournaments. And people who play them have a general good feel about them so, that is why they are both so high on my list, KaShank did an analysis on the Match up list,

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaShank View Post
Alright, I went ahead and did what I was asking.
Where advantage=+1 neutral/disputed=+0 and disadvantage=-1

Meta Knight: 24
Falco/Toon Link: 21
Marth/Mr. Game & Watch: 20
Snake: 18
Wolf: 17
R.O.B.: 16
Pikman and Olimar: 13
Pit: 11
Ice Climbers: 9
Zelda: 8
Ness: 7
Wario/Pikachu/Zero Suit Samus: 6
Lucario/Diddy Kong: 5
Lucas: 4
Kirby: 2
Sheik: 0
Fox/Link: -5
Ivysaur/Squirtle: -7
King Dedede/Mario: -8
Donkey Kong: -9
Luigi: -10
Samus: -12
Charizard/Sonic: -13
Peach: -14
Ike: -15
Jigglypuff: -20
Ganadorf: -21
Yoshi/Bowser: -24
Captain Falcon: -28

Alright this is NOT a tier list based upon the match up chart. It is simply a different representation of the data. So from this point of view my first reaction is that Ike probably shouldn't have a -15.
Keep in mind
A. This character match up chart solely based off of opinion from an uncredited source.
B. Most of the chart is not even fully completed or disputed therefore throwing off this data even farther.
C. As long as we are critiquing we are making progress so THAT IS THIS IS BEING DONE.
and I used the Tournament results posted by Ankoku, which showed Snake and Metaknight on the top as the tournament winners.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ankoku View Post
I went and made a rankings list based on tournament performance. I'm also continually updating it. Basically, +1 for placing top8, +3 for placing top4, +5 for winning a tournament. And if you want your tournament to count, give me a top8 listing with character mains. ^_^

S Rank will see THE MOST representation in a tournament, by far. Especially toward the top. The A Rank characters tend to see varying representation in different regions of the country, but wherever they're big, they'll usually take a top4 or even winning spot. B Rank is interesting... it mostly shows characters that have been doing relatively well in tourneys, though likely only showing up in local ones and thus not seeing as much play as S and A Ranks have. C Rank is popular characters that haven't really placed well, D Rank is just plain unpopular.

S Rank
Meta Knight (19 top8, 19 top4, 5 wins, 101 pts)
Snake (13 top8, 14 top4, 9 wins, 100 pts)
A Rank
King Dedede (3 top8, 10 top4, 4 wins, 53 pts)
Mr. Game & Watch (11 top8, 6 top4, 4 wins, 49 pts)
ROB (9 top8, 10 top4, 1 win, 44 pts)
Wario (1 top8, 4 top4, 6 wins, 43 pts)
Marth (10 top8, 6 top4, 2 wins, 38 pts)
Pikachu (3 top8, 8 top4, 2 wins, 37 pts)
B Rank
Wolf (7 top8, 7 top4, 28 pts)
Ike (7 top8, 5 top4, 1 win, 27 pts)
Kirby (7 top4, 1 win, 26 pts)
Lucario (3 top8, 4 top4, 2 wins, 25 pts)
Toon Link (3 top8, 4 top4, 2 wins, 25 pts)
Peach (2 top8, 6 top4, 1 win, 25 pts)
Fox (5 top8, 5 top4, 1 win, 25 pts)
Olimar (9 top8, 5 top4, 24 pts)
Falco (5 top8, 4 top4, 1 win, 22 pts)
Sonic (3 top8, 2 top4, 2 wins, 19 pts)
Donkey Kong (5 top8, 1 top4, 2 win, 18 pts)
C Rank
Pit (4 top8, 2 top4, 1 win, 15 pts)
Ice Climbers (3 top8, 4 top4, 15 pts)
Diddy Kong (4 top8, 3 top4, 13 pts)
Lucas (4 top8, 3 top4, 13 pts)
Bowser (1 top8, 3 top4, 10 pts)
Jigglypuff (3 top8, 2 top4, 9 pts)
Luigi (2 top4, 6 pts)
Captain Falcon (2 top4, 6 pts)
Zero Suit Samus (3 top8, 1 top4, 6 pts)
Mario (2 top8, 1 top4, 5 pts)
Ness (2 top8, 1 top4, 5 pts)
D Rank
Link (1 top8, 1 top4, 4 pts)
Sheik (1 top8, 1 top4, 4 pts)
Zelda (1 top4, 3 pts)
Yoshi (1 top4, 3 pts)
Pokémon Trainer (1 top4, 3 pts)
Ganondorf (3 top8, 3 pts)
Samus (2 top8, 2 pts)

Tournament Wins ONLY List
Snake (9 wins)
Wario (6 wins)
Meta Knight (5 wins)
Mr. Game & Watch (4 wins)
King Dedede (4 wins)
Pikachu (2 wins)
Marth (2 wins)
Toon Link (2 wins)
Lucario (2 wins)
Sonic (2 wins)
Donkey Kong (2 wins)
ROB (1 win)
Kirby (1 win)
Ike (1 win)
Peach (1 win)
Fox (1 win)
Falco (1 win)
Pit (1 win)

No Top8 List
S Rank
Snake (14 top4, 9 wins, 87 pts)
Meta Knight (19 top4, 5 wins, 82 pts)
A Rank
King Dedede (10 top4, 4 wins, 50 pts)
Wario (4 top4, 6 wins, 42 pts)
Mr. Game & Watch (6 top4, 4 wins, 38 pts)
ROB (10 top4, 1 win, 35 pts)
Pikachu (8 top4, 2 wins, 34 pts)
Marth (6 top4, 2 wins, 28 pts)
Kirby (7 top4, 1 win, 26 pts)
B Rank
Peach (6 top4, 1 win, 23 pts)
Lucario (4 top4, 2 wins, 22 pts)
Toon Link (4 top4, 2 wins, 22 pts)
Wolf (7 top4, 21 pts)
Fox (5 top4, 1 win, 20 pts)
Ike (5 top4, 1 win, 20 pts)
Falco (4 top4, 1 win, 17 pts)
Sonic (2 top4, 2 wins, 16 pts)
Olimar (5 top4, 15 pts)
Donkey Kong (1 top4, 2 wins, 13 pts)
C Rank
Ice Climbers (4 top4, 12 pts)
Pit (2 top4, 1 win, 11 pts)
Bowser (3 top4, 9 pts)
Diddy Kong (3 top4, 9 pts)
Lucas (3 top4, 9 pts)
Luigi (2 top4, 6 pts)
Captain Falcon (2 top4, 6 pts)
D Rank
Yoshi (1 top4, 3 pts)
Sheik (1 top4, 3 pts)
Link (1 top4, 3 pts)
Zelda (1 top4, 3 pts)
Mario (1 top4, 3 pts)
Zero Suit Samus (1 top4, 3 pts)
Pokémon Trainer (1 top4, 3 pts)
Jigglypuff (1 top4, 3 pts)
Ness (1 top4, 3 pts)
Unranked
Ganondorf
Samus

Tournaments Used (thanks to Xiivi for links!)
XESTICLE
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164253
C3
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164150
Final Smash 3
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164129
UofM Biweekly 11
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=110735
UofM Biweekly 12
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=110735
UofM Biweekly 13
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=110735
UofM Biweekly 14
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=110735
Indiana Brawl Tournament
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164106
Arena 51 Biweekly
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164316
Lolful
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162695
Trash Day 4
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162864
Capital Brawl
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161093
Dallas Blockbuster Brawl
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165642
The Drunken Brawl
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165463
Michigan Biweekly 1 @ DigiOps
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161768
Your Brawl @ Rochester, NY
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165399
Bel Gusto
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165643
This Game Sucks
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157451
Smashtastrophe 2
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165793
Darkside Comics
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165535
DUMB
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=159937
Final Round XI
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=154544
MPS

PLAY N TRADE
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161576
Critical Hit
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161926
Omaha NE Family Fun Center
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165900
Get Some
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=139009
EWU II

FB3: The Shocker
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=127388
NikoK's Niagara Triweeklies
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=148705
Panama Weeklies

Rochester's First Brawl
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156664
Albuquerque Monthly
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=104253
New York Weekly
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=96076
ROFL's Palmdale: Tauntsies Two
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162950
I think Metaknight in time will go down, but I think he is still very strong. Snake has won more tournaments than anyone has, but I think less people play Snake than Metaknight, but those who are good are doing really well, and that could be an indication that Snake is better than Metaknight once you play at higher levels.
As far as Wario and Pikachu go, if people are winning with them, and feel that they are decent characters, than maybe they deserve to be on the top tier. 0% of my Judgement went into this list, if it did I would probably put Link higher up on it, considering I use Link as my main.
Last edited by Metro Knight : Yesterday at 06:44 PM.

 

[Corigames]

When I see him playing against a competent player and winning, then I may reconsider.

http://www.youtube.com/user/tehSANDMAN03

Uh... maybe you misunderstood me. Competent means:

Having suitable or sufficient skill, knowledge, experience, etc., for some purpose; properly qualified

That Ike in the first video I watched wasn't even near the meaning. Granted, it was one video, but I could already see flaws in his play-style. First of all, why wasn't the forward B EVER dodged? If he had spot dodged even once, it could have gotten the ganon in an A Jab combo. No, he took it to the face every time. Then, there are the stomps. His game could have been messed up if that Ike would have teched it, any of the times he did it. Mostly, in that fight, the Ike could have sat in his shield and fought from there. If he Forward B'ed, then you dodge and punish.

In the character to character fight, they are both slow. If Ganon were against someone faster, he may have even more issues.

 

[Zook]

When your balls drop, you can then make fun of other people for getting boners.

lmao! Getting mad at me for making fun of video game characters. I love SWF.

Sir, I don't know if you've ever met ZSS. I feel the same way you do about this sort of thing, except that I can't stop looking at her either. So if you don't think she's hot, then you, sir, are gay.

I'd think of her as hot if she were you know, real, but... All right, I must say, she definately is the hottest video game character I've seen. That ***!

Back on topic: PT needs a dedicated person to make him better. Seriously, with 3 characters in one, he has outstandingly high potential.

 

[BDawgPHD]

http://gameroom.mlgpro.com/view/OjeoRNmE0VU.html

*fapfapfapfapfapfapfap*

 

[Corigames]

lmao! Getting mad at me for making fun of video game characters. I love SWF.

Ok ok, let me get this straight. You are saying that I'm getting mad over you making fun of video game characters. That's exactly what you said, right? And all I said was an insult to your man-hod, which is exactly what you were attempting on the people you quoted.

So, I have to ask, why are you getting mad at people who think hot looking people are hot? I love SWF, but hate hypocrites.

 

[BDawgPHD]

So, I have to ask, why are you getting mad at people who think hot looking people are hot?

I must say, that is a very good question

 

[StripesOrBars]

Stripesofbars:

Wanna explain this one? I know that he's easy to pick up, but he's still really good.

Also, what exactly was wrong with melee's tier list (genuinely interested)

Melee's last tier list was made when KDJ's Shiek was winning MLGs.

Where do they get Falco from?

Aside from him coming in like 3 top 10 spots.

They put Marth under Fox and Falco when the Melee list shoulda been:

Fox
Marth
Sheik

Falco
Peach

The problem is they have idiots with people who know what they're talkin about in the BR.

I can quarentee(sp?) if Mic or the other mods who have never touched an NTSC version of smash were'nt involved in the tier list, it would have been a bit differnt.

Who the hell are you anyway? All I've gotten is that you're a total ****, and you like pretending you know what you're talking about.

There's something called "authority". Not in the sense of the authority that moderators and admins have to operate the forums, but rather the authority that substantiates your opinions and positions as plausible. People like Mew2King or KDJ obviously have a lot of "authority" when it comes to smash because they play the game for a living and are good at it, and that authority alone is enough to give their opinions a lot of weight.

To put what you were saying before into perspective, the people who are really good at Brawl have more authority when it comes to Brawl than moderators or even some BRoomers do, although moderators have the "authority" to lock your threads and do mean things to you.

Now, I'm not well known on the smash scene, because I was never really any good at Melee, and I haven't been to a real tournament yet. So my opinions don't count for much by themselves, which is why I always explain what I'm saying so that

a) I create my own authority by substantiating my opinions with facts
b) if I'm wrong, someone can point out where my mistake is, and I can learn something from it and then reform my opinion.

Now, speaking from experience, I understand that it gets frustrating to bring every single person that joins this thread up to speed on the discussion, so when someone REALLY ****s up (*cough**MKismidtierorBowsersucksorsomething**cough*) I don't blame people for flaming, as I do it myself. This is why this thread sucks.....it doesn't get updated or anything, so it's a pain to have a REAL discussion. Not that we need one, entirely.

My point is......I don't even know who you are....where do you get the authority to insult everyone else, and just state your opinions and then ***** when you're opposed? (<<<<<honest question)


On another note, you can't say MK isn't top just because you can beat him on wifi =/

*Looks at join date*

LOL @ who is Doodah.

Sorry but if you didn't play Melee competively for as long as I did(even tho I never really did anything except in teams) than you have no idea how to play Brawl mr join date 2007.

If you havent realized, people who were good in Melee are also good in Brawl(winning tourneys and such).

Meaning all these Brawl scrubs will stop playin Brawl once they realize the only reason they're doing so good is because the people who played Melee don't play this horrid game and once Melee players learn the matchups in Brawl it's gonna be just like Melee again.

So I say it once again.

I know more about Melee and Brawl than anyone who has a join date post 07.

Just because you sit in your room and combo lvl 9 cpus doesn't mean you know what you're talking about in Brawl.

Edit: Also, I didn't even read your post because it's most likely worthless(now someone is gonna quote this and say something like "Irony" or some 08 BS.

 

[Corigames]

...mr join date 2007.

I know more about Melee and Brawl than anyone who has a join date post 07.

...or some 08 BS.

I... I... I love you.

 

[StripesOrBars]

No.

We love Forward mr Tempe AZ.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Melee's last tier list was made when KDJ's Shiek was winning MLGs.

Where do they get Falco from?

Aside from him coming in like 3 top 10 spots.

They put Marth under Fox and Falco when the Melee list shoulda been:

Fox
Marth
Sheik

Falco
Peach

The problem is they have idiots with people who know what they're talkin about in the BR.

I can quarentee(sp?) if Mic or the other mods who have never touched an NTSC version of smash were'nt involved in the tier list, it would have been a bit differnt.



*Looks at join date*

LOL @ who is Doodah.

Sorry but if you didn't play Melee competively for as long as I did(even tho I never really did anything except in teams) than you have no idea how to play Brawl mr join date 2007.

If you havent realized, people who were good in Melee are also good in Brawl(winning tourneys and such).

Meaning all these Brawl scrubs will stop playin Brawl once they realize the only reason they're doing so good is because the people who played Melee don't play this horrid game and once Melee players learn the matchups in Brawl it's gonna be just like Melee again.

So I say it once again.

I know more about Melee and Brawl than anyone who has a join date post 07.

Just because you sit in your room and combo lvl 9 cpus doesn't mean you know what you're talking about in Brawl.

Edit: Also, I didn't even read your post because it's most likely worthless(now someone is gonna quote this and say something like "Irony" or some 08 BS.

All I saw in your post was "join date" and "lvl 9 cpus" and "I'm a scrub".

I'm starting to think you don't know jack **** about anything.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Nice try.

But basically copying something I just said in my previous post is pretty pathetic.

Also, telling me I don't know anything with no basis to go off is pretty stupid.

 

[Corigames]

No.

We love Forward mr Tempe AZ.

Sean B is a cool dude, eh plays Falco and doesn't afraid of anything.

1. Are you talking down to tempe >_>
2. Forward lived in Tuscon :/

 

[BDawgPHD]

Nice try.

But basically copying something I just said in my previous post is pretty pathetic.

Also, telling me I don't know anything with no basis to go off is pretty stupid.

You don't know anything because the source of authority that you claim is invalid. There are plenty of idiots that joined before 07 that have no idea what they're talking about (example: you), and there are plenty of smart people that joined after 07 that know far more than you do (example: me).

Sorry if I didn't read your previous post, considering, you know, all you do is mouth off and throw your join date around like it makes you worth something. By the way, the last time we argued about something, you threw your join date around, and I presented evidence. I remember you looking like a total idiot. Don't make a fool of yourself, man, just don't.

 

[hoopspr226]

Lucas and Ness are bottom tier?

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=166764&page=4

 

[Grunt]

Lucas and Ness are bottom tier?

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=166764&page=4

well a good lucas can keep his spacing and hopefully wont be chain grabbed.
but this is new to me, and im not sure how tiers would be affected. most people tend to put Lucas high to high-mid.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Sean B is a cool dude, eh plays Falco and doesn't afraid of anything.

1. Are you talking down to tempe >_>
2. Forward lived in Tuscon :/

1. Hell no.

2. He lived in florida for a month right by me.

You don't know anything because the source of authority that you claim is invalid. There are plenty of idiots that joined before 07 that have no idea what they're talking about (example: you), and there are plenty of smart people that joined after 07 that know far more than you do (example: me).

Sorry if I didn't read your previous post, considering, you know, all you do is mouth off and throw your join date around like it makes you worth something. By the way, the last time we argued about something, you threw your join date around, and I presented evidence. I remember you looking like a total idiot. Don't make a fool of yourself, man, just don't.

Hmmm.

Once again, worthless post.

But if you wanna asume I'm dumb and you're smart, then you're just further proving my point that you have no idea what you're talkin about Mr. 07.

Besides, you probably found out about smashboards in Nintendo Power.

And chances are you're horrid at Brawl as well as Melee(now you're gonna try and MM me).

You're not getting anywhere, never will.

Becuase it's not like you're ever gonna do anything useful in Brawl.

Basically what I'm saying is, you've never touched Melee and you think you know what you're talking about in Brawl beacuse you can beat your friends/Lvl 9 CPUs.

GTFO and stop acting like you're makin an a$$ of me LOL(or lemme guess I'm makin an *** out of myself).

Now please, bring your 07-08 buddies in here to "own" me on the internets please.

 

[dark_Illusion_hokage]

Sonic is the king of edgeguarding, people like sonic-orochi, me and a couple others can knock you of the stage in a heartbeat.
I think he will be mid-high teir at first and move up along the way.

 

[BDawgPHD]

1. Hell no.

2. He lived in florida for a month right by me.



Hmmm.

Once again, worthless post.

But if you wanna asume I'm dumb and you're smart, then you're just further proving my point that you have no idea what you're talkin about Mr. 07.

Besides, you probably found out about smashboards in Nintendo Power.

And chances are you're horrid at Brawl as well as Melee(now you're gonna try and MM me).

So if you want to continue your "I am smart argument even tho I never played Melee but I beat Brawl CPUs" than go right ahead.

You're not getting anywhere, never will.

Becuase it's not like you're ever gonna do anything useful in Brawl.

Basically what I'm saying is, you've never touched Melee and you think you know what you're talking about in Brawl beacuse you can beat your friends/Lvl 9 CPUs.

GTFO and stop acting like you're makin an a$$ of me LOL(or lemme guess I'm makin an *** out of myself).

Now please, bring your 07-08 buddies in here to "own" me on the internets please.

None of what you said is true. Instead of calling my posts worthless, try fixing your own posts.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Hmmmm.

LOL.

Well this is getting nowhere(as shown in your above post LOL).

So I'm gonna stop it because I see you're running out of steam.

MK is not top.

 

[Grunt]

Please, both of you are looking like total idiots. this does not belong in the "tier discussion". go argue about meaningless thing somewhere else. it's pathetic to see someone try to communicate about a serious topic just to have it drowned out by your irrelevant posts. both of you please shut up already.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Hmmmm.

LOL.

Well this is getting nowhere(as shown in your above post LOL).

So I'm gonna stop it because I see you're running out of steam.

MK is not top.

Here is my evidence i joined June 06 baby *faps to join date*

Oh.....ok...............MK is top, l2p

 

[PhantomBrawler]

Okay im gonna take a stab at this tier thing. Please dont flame me, im just throwin a tier list out so we can actually talk about that instead of pointless bickering.

Top Tier:
Snake
ROB
MK
Falco

High Tier:
T.L.
G&W
Marth
Fox
Pit
Wolf
Kirby
Diddy
Pika
Zelda/Sheik

Mid Tier:
Ice Climbers
Mario
Sonic
Ike
Lucario
Samus
Wario
Zero Suit
Luigi
Lucas
Olimar
Dedede
DK
Peach
PT
Link
Ness

Low Tier:
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Yoshi

Bottom Tier:
Bowser
Ganondorf

Okay that is all

 

[sagemoon]

^ I like that tier list. Although i dont think zelda and shiek should be included in the same spot. Arguably PT should be separated also.

 

[Grunt]

Okay im gonna take a stab at this tier thing. Please dont flame me, im just throwin a tier list out so we can actually talk about that instead of pointless bickering.

Top Tier:
Snake
ROB
MK
Falco

High Tier:
T.L.
G&W
Marth
Fox
Pit
Wolf
Kirby
Diddy
Pika
Zelda/Sheik

Mid Tier:
Ice Climbers
Mario
Sonic
Ike
Lucario
Samus
Wario
Zero Suit
Luigi
Lucas
Olimar
Dedede
DK
Peach
PT
Link
Ness

Low Tier:
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Yoshi

Bottom Tier:
Bowser
Ganondorf

Okay that is all

I do believe ROB has potential, and may get to this point one day, but right now, i dont see him quite that high. also, im not seeing ZSS below Wario and regular samus. care to explain?

 

[PhantomBrawler]

Its hard to split PT up, I can understand Sheik Zelda being different.....If you use just one Pokemon with PT they eventually tire out and are KO'd easier. Eventually you are gonna have to use the other pokemon. If i were to split zelda/sheik I would put sheik mid and leave zelda where she is

 

[PhantomBrawler]

@ Grunt:
Thats just from personal experience, I have played a very good wario and his aerials and tilts help. The thing to me that makes him difficult is his unorthodox manner of attack,lol. I feel that Samus is above ZSS because ZSS lacks killing moves. It may just be because of the people i play, but the only move i really seem to be killed by with her is her >B....which is slow and easily predicted.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Its hard to split PT up, I can understand Sheik Zelda being different.....If you use just one Pokemon with PT they eventually tire out and are KO'd easier. Eventually you are gonna have to use the other pokemon. If i were to split zelda/sheik I would put sheik mid and leave zelda where she is

Well, what we've thrown around is that because each pokemon obviously has its own moveset, characteristics, and matchups, they should be ranked individually, but because winning depends on your ability to use all three pokemon at some point and your ability to change between the three and use all effectively, PT should then be rated as a whole. Giving PT matchups is tricky IMO, although I haven't looked at the matchup thread at all.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure ZSS's aerials are pretty good/workable. I haven't seen a lot of her in a while, but I'm pretty sure she's good as far as spacing and minimizing risks, although I couldn't see her being incredibly high.

Also, Bowser is at least mid tier, probably high tier. We've been through this.

 

[PhantomBrawler]

Well, what we've thrown around is that because each pokemon obviously has its own moveset, characteristics, and matchups, they should be ranked individually, but because winning depends on your ability to use all three pokemon at some point and your ability to change between the three and use all effectively, PT should then be rated as a whole. Giving PT matchups is tricky IMO, although I haven't looked at the matchup thread at all.

Its very tricky, i mean you could pair each pokemon with their opponent and then combine the score for the matchup. Like say you are playing Bowser(this is not fact im just throwin stuff out to explain) and each pokemon has the adv on him then that would be a plus 3 to his matchup count. Like you said, lol, its tricky and i dont really want to run the numbers lol

 

[PhantomBrawler]

Bowser for high tier? I dont know, I just think that he has way too much lag on most of his attacks. It makes things difficult even if you make contact.

 

[Ugawa]

Okay im gonna take a stab at this tier thing. Please dont flame me, im just throwin a tier list out so we can actually talk about that instead of pointless bickering.

Top Tier:
Snake
ROB
MK
Falco

High Tier:
T.L.
G&W
Marth
Fox
Pit
Wolf
Kirby
Diddy
Pika
Zelda/Sheik

Mid Tier:
Ice Climbers
Mario
Sonic
Ike
Lucario
Samus
Wario
Zero Suit
Luigi
Lucas
Olimar
Dedede
DK
Peach
PT
Link
Ness

Low Tier:
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Yoshi

Bottom Tier:
Bowser
Ganondorf

Okay that is all

I haven't been here too long and haven't read much about Falco but just curious: why does he make top tier for you?

 

[PhantomBrawler]

I haven't been here too long and haven't read much about Falco but just curious: why does he make top tier for you?

Most of his attacks have little lag on them(exception Fair). He has a chain grab, he is fairly quick, fairly strong, has many combos, excellent spacing attacks(lasers,shine). He is great in the air(in fact he prefers it hehehe) because of his jump and loftiness. I guess i just think that all adds up

 

[TehBo49]

Okay im gonna take a stab at this tier thing. Please dont flame me, im just throwin a tier list out so we can actually talk about that instead of pointless bickering.

Top Tier:
Snake
ROB
MK
Falco

High Tier:
T.L.
G&W
Marth
Fox
Pit
Wolf
Kirby
Diddy
Pika
Zelda/Sheik

Mid Tier:
Ice Climbers
Mario
Sonic
Ike
Lucario
Samus
Wario
Zero Suit
Luigi
Lucas
Olimar
Dedede
DK
Peach
PT
Link
Ness

Low Tier:
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Yoshi

Bottom Tier:
Bowser
Ganondorf

Okay that is all

Ike, Fox, & Sonic are too high IMO & the ICs should be high tier. Their chaingrabs are really good. They've got good aerials, good KO attacks, & a good projectile too. Also, Bowser isn't bottom tier. Probably mid or low.

@ BDawgPHD: You shouldn't bother looking at the matchup chart because it fails so hard. For example, they say Charizard has an advantage against Pikachu & Yoshi has an advantage on Olimar. I agree that PT should be ranked as a whole & individually.

 

[Grunt]

@Various people:

ZSS has aerial kicks that can kill at pretty decent %s. She also can chain her Dsmash infinitely if you get the timing right. Samus cant short hop missle, which messed me up when i tried to play her. also, ZSS has range, which Wario lacks (except his bike is kind of a projectile.)