As a Kirby main I should be happy about this, but I'm not sure why TL doesn't counter him that well. Explain please.
Tier lists based around Kirby? Why?
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Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)
- Thread starter AlphaZealot
- Start date
- Status
Tier lists based around Kirby? Why?
Grandeza
Smash Master
Laijin can you explain why your tier list is based around kirby. I don't see the reasoning.
Banjodorf
Dynamic Duo
- Joined
- Nov 15, 2007
- Messages
- 8,455
- NNID
- bluefalcon27
- 3DS FC
- 2105-8715-5493
Frown
poekmon
A bottom tier character will be fully able to win, since the game is much more balanced than Melee. If the tiers were measured in length and standing next to each other, they would look like this:
This is the top tier of Melee.
This is the top tier of Brawl.
This is the bottom tier of Brawl.
This is the bottom tier of Melee.
marthsword
Smash Ace
Bias, bias, ignorance...
How the hell would fox ever be the top of the top? Mid tier or MAYBE lower-high. Lucas so much lower. G&W+ROB are good, but where's the rest of the top tier? Just make an intelligent post or shut up.
Way to lay down the law.
And you really have got balls to main Ivysaur. Where were you when we were defending Ivy against everyone on smashboards?
marthsword
Smash Ace
Haha, I came right after. Thanks man. I main PT and ROB. PT slightly more than ROB, and Ivysaur is by far my best Pokemon, so I place him as my main. My greatest accomplishment is surviving for 4 minutes with Ivysaur while fatigued at 150%, and shaving off a stock during that time. Enough ranting.
New Topic: ROB. He seems to be consistently placed lower than I would expect (mid and low-high), and nobody is giving any explanation as to why they are placing him where he is whilst all other characters get explanation. Being a ROB player as well, I think it's time to discuss this.
BibulousDan
Smash Apprentice
At first, thans for the feedback
> DDD : Hum, i don't know why i put him here... oO I moved him in High Tier. But in the High Tier, i'm pretty unsure for this guy, as i didn't play with a really good DDD. But you're right, he doesn't reserve this Middle Tier rank.
> Ice Climbers : Hum, i really think that ICs have a reaaly great potential... Infinite chaingrab, Nana as a shield, Spike... Projectile (wich can laserlock), pretty quick smashes, good range, good jumps and recovery...
But maybe i'm wrong; could you explain your point of view ?
Well, DDD is my 3rd best character, so I feel like i should defend him. He can do an infinite chain grab (down throw) he has excellent range for a character of his stature. His Side B can sometimes throw an item (smash ball, bomb). also he has an excellent down b that can be charged up and used as edge guarding tactic.
As for Ice Climbers, i'm no good with them but my friend is good with them. mainly because he button mashes. I just don't think he's top or high tier material, maybe mid.
missingnomaster
Smash Lord
I'm pretty sure that if the actual items are turned off (not just set to None) that the capsule DDD can throw will be empty.
Unusual_Rex
Smash Journeyman
My tier list.
I believe my tier list may be one of the more accurate ones at the moment. Although it will almost certainly change over time. Note that most characters are bound to move up or down in positions.
I'm taking information from the Character Rankings List, and the Brawl Character Match-Up Chart. I'm trying to do my best to take in all characters advantages, and disadvantages to make an educated guess as to what the tier list may look like.
Hopefully this will help you guys out
(P.S. As new information comes in I'll try to update this list accordingly.)
A (U) beside a name means they could possibly move up on the list.
A (D) beside a name means they could possibly move down on the list.
An (N) beside the name means they could possibly move up or down on the list.
Top Tiers:
Meta Knight (D)
Snake (D)
Marth (N)
Mr. Game & Watch (U)
High Tiers:
Toon Link (D)
Captain Olimar (N)
Falco (N)
Pit (N)
R.O.B (U)
Wolf (N)
Middle Tiers:
Ice Climbers (N)
Pikachu (D)
Lucas (U)
Wario (N)
King Dedede (U)
Ness (N)
Kirby (U)
Ike (N)
Fox (U)
Lucario (U)
Diddy Kong (N)
Zero Suit Samus (U)
Squirtle (D)
Zelda (U)
Samus (N)
Low Tier:
Sheik (U)
Peach (D)
Sonic (N)
Link (U)
Ivysaur (N)
Luigi (U)
Charizard (N)
Bottom Tier:
Mario (N)
Jigglypuff (D)
Bowser (N)
Yoshi (N)
Ganondorf (N)
Captain Falcon (U)
Please comment on what you think about my tier list. Any comments? Does anything need changing? Please respond!
I believe my tier list may be one of the more accurate ones at the moment. Although it will almost certainly change over time. Note that most characters are bound to move up or down in positions.
I'm taking information from the Character Rankings List, and the Brawl Character Match-Up Chart. I'm trying to do my best to take in all characters advantages, and disadvantages to make an educated guess as to what the tier list may look like.
Hopefully this will help you guys out
(P.S. As new information comes in I'll try to update this list accordingly.)
A (U) beside a name means they could possibly move up on the list.
A (D) beside a name means they could possibly move down on the list.
An (N) beside the name means they could possibly move up or down on the list.
Top Tiers:
Meta Knight (D)
Snake (D)
Marth (N)
Mr. Game & Watch (U)
High Tiers:
Toon Link (D)
Captain Olimar (N)
Falco (N)
Pit (N)
R.O.B (U)
Wolf (N)
Middle Tiers:
Ice Climbers (N)
Pikachu (D)
Lucas (U)
Wario (N)
King Dedede (U)
Ness (N)
Kirby (U)
Ike (N)
Fox (U)
Lucario (U)
Diddy Kong (N)
Zero Suit Samus (U)
Squirtle (D)
Zelda (U)
Samus (N)
Low Tier:
Sheik (U)
Peach (D)
Sonic (N)
Link (U)
Ivysaur (N)
Luigi (U)
Charizard (N)
Bottom Tier:
Mario (N)
Jigglypuff (D)
Bowser (N)
Yoshi (N)
Ganondorf (N)
Captain Falcon (U)
Please comment on what you think about my tier list. Any comments? Does anything need changing? Please respond!
Yeah, but sometimes he just throws a bob-omb. I haven't heard of the smash ball, though...
marthsword
Smash Ace
My opinion: ROB is adaptable in that he can switch playing styles easily (between playing offensively and camping, and playing defensively. He is a fairly good camper, which is a very good thing considering the mechanics of brawl and how matches often turn into campfests. His gyro is a great projectile when thrown which can rack up damage well and create mindgames and confusion on the opponents part.
In addition to being able to camp and play defensively, well, ROB is very good offensively. He can juggle well with uair and up tilt, and is extremely good at interrupting with jabs, forwards tilts, dash attacks, and down tilts, and D smash. The aforementioned moves are extremely quick and can help rack up damage very quickly. His fair and bair have high priority, good range, and a slightly lasting hit box that allow ROB to WOP if used smartly. His dair is a spike with a bit of start up lag, but very powerful. His nair is a great vertical killer with a huge hitbox. It timed correctly it can hit in any direction you like, offstage, even can semi spike if I recall correctly. Great for characters like Jiggs.
Rob can gimp well. His fair has a lasting hitbox that easily lets him repeatedly knock foes farther and farther off stage. Combined with his up-B it is hard for some characters to return once the ROB sets up. Characters like wolf are gimped very easily as you can see in the SWF wi-fi tourney finals with Overswarm as ROB.
And last, recovery. Robs recovery is in my opinion, the best in the game, other than possibly jiggs. Much better than Pit's. Rob can attack and move around well while using his up B. It recharges in approximately 2.5 seconds, making it unlikely that you will not be able to recover when knocked offstage, and also because of his very high second jump. ROB's high aerial priority and amazing fair make him very hard to edgeguard. Also, his ability to stop and start his vertical movement at will make predicting where he will go difficult. Finally, if up B is pressed fairly quickly in a consistent manner, he will be able to fly approximately 3 times the normal height as normal, which is already ridiculous.
I could keep going, but I think I've said enough. All this is my personal opinion make ROB possible high tier material. </rant>
In addition to being able to camp and play defensively, well, ROB is very good offensively. He can juggle well with uair and up tilt, and is extremely good at interrupting with jabs, forwards tilts, dash attacks, and down tilts, and D smash. The aforementioned moves are extremely quick and can help rack up damage very quickly. His fair and bair have high priority, good range, and a slightly lasting hit box that allow ROB to WOP if used smartly. His dair is a spike with a bit of start up lag, but very powerful. His nair is a great vertical killer with a huge hitbox. It timed correctly it can hit in any direction you like, offstage, even can semi spike if I recall correctly. Great for characters like Jiggs.
Rob can gimp well. His fair has a lasting hitbox that easily lets him repeatedly knock foes farther and farther off stage. Combined with his up-B it is hard for some characters to return once the ROB sets up. Characters like wolf are gimped very easily as you can see in the SWF wi-fi tourney finals with Overswarm as ROB.
And last, recovery. Robs recovery is in my opinion, the best in the game, other than possibly jiggs. Much better than Pit's. Rob can attack and move around well while using his up B. It recharges in approximately 2.5 seconds, making it unlikely that you will not be able to recover when knocked offstage, and also because of his very high second jump. ROB's high aerial priority and amazing fair make him very hard to edgeguard. Also, his ability to stop and start his vertical movement at will make predicting where he will go difficult. Finally, if up B is pressed fairly quickly in a consistent manner, he will be able to fly approximately 3 times the normal height as normal, which is already ridiculous.
I could keep going, but I think I've said enough. All this is my personal opinion make ROB possible high tier material. </rant>
reborn394
Smash Apprentice
How long did it took you to make the tier list? Also, I don't agree Luigi should be low tier. DeDeDe, Diddy Kong, and Lucas should be moved to High Tier.I believe my tier list may be one of the more accurate ones at the moment. Although it will almost certainly change over time. Note that most characters are bound to move up or down in positions.
I'm taking information from the Character Rankings List, and the Brawl Character Match-Up Chart. I'm trying to do my best to take in all characters advantages, and disadvantages to make an educated guess as to what the tier list may look like.
Hopefully this will help you guys out
(P.S. As new information comes in I'll try to update this list accordingly.)
A (U) beside a name means they could possibly move up on the list.
A (D) beside a name means they could possibly move down on the list.
An (N) beside the name means they could possibly move up or down on the list.
Top Tiers:
Meta Knight (D)
Snake (D)
Marth (N)
Mr. Game & Watch (U)
High Tiers:
Toon Link (D)
Captain Olimar (N)
Falco (N)
Pit (N)
R.O.B (U)
Wolf (N)
Middle Tiers:
Ice Climbers (N)
Pikachu (D)
Lucas (U)
Wario (N)
King Dedede (U)
Ness (N)
Kirby (U)
Ike (N)
Fox (U)
Lucario (U)
Diddy Kong (N)
Zero Suit Samus (U)
Squirtle (D)
Zelda (U)
Samus (N)
Low Tier:
Sheik (U)
Peach (D)
Sonic (N)
Link (U)
Ivysaur (N)
Luigi (U)
Charizard (N)
Bottom Tier:
Mario (N)
Jigglypuff (D)
Bowser (N)
Yoshi (N)
Ganondorf (N)
Captain Falcon (U)
Please comment on what you think about my tier list. Any comments? Does anything need changing? Please respond!
Unusual_Rex
Smash Journeyman
I started yesterday, and finished today. I have Luigi lower because thats what the Character rankings and Match-up showed. It will most likely change in the near future.
Blad01
Smash Lord
> Actually i agree with you on DDD : Chaingrab, good range, good power, four jumps (the only heavy character with 4 jumps
), a superarmor (Up B), one quick air attack (Bair), a good UpTilt, and a projectile.However, his weaknesses are his heaviness (Falco can easilky chaingrab him) and his slowness.
> For the ICs, i would need others points of view, but i take yours into consideration.
So, except theses two characters, everybody agrees with the tier list i propose ? (that would suprise me
). [The tier list is there : http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141725&page=296Chronopath
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2007
- Messages
- 23
Your friend doesn't sound good at IC if all he does is button mash. Ice Climbers have the best metagame right now, mainly because Desynching and their grab game has carried on from melee to brawl. Watch some vids of good Ice Climbers, and not just your button mashing friend.
On the subject of ROB's gyro: It's a great projectile no doubt. ROB's recovery actually allows him to jump off the stage, charge it, and upB back to the edge. The only problem I can see with it is that enemies can airdodge-grab it and use it for themselves.
His recovery might actually be better than Jiggz, because hers lacks vertical recovery distance. However, the time it takes to recharge must be spent on solid ground, so edgeguarders can often have their way with him. This is not to say he's gimpable at all.
ROB kind of reminds me of a heavier version of Jiggz, as he has great recovery, great combos, and an undeniably great WOP.
Here's what top tier might look like:
Snake
Meta-Knight
Marth
G-Dub
ROB
Wolf
Falco
ROB is def top or upper high tier. (Then again ROB is my second, so I might be biased
)My question is, with Pikachu and Pit heading up the upper high, where does Toon Link fit in?
bigman40
Smash Master
Due to people not knowing anything about yoshi's skill, they rate them bottom tier instantly. Don't come to me about character match-ups either, because most of the fights are even. Yoshi (in my thoughts) only has about 6-8 bad matchups. Other than that, they are fairly equal. Don't rate yoshi at all if you have no logical background to rate yoshi completely. At the MOST, Yoshi should be no higher than low of mid tier.
Unusual_Rex
Smash Journeyman
No one has any comments on my tier list? Check it out quickly on the previous page and tell me what you think!
Blad01
Smash Lord
Yoshi is not bad at all. But i don't think i've underated him...
bigman40
Smash Master
You may not have underated him (unless you put him in bottom tier), but more than 90% of the lists do not have logical reasoning behind why yoshi is soo low. He should at least be near sonic's placement.
quantumphotonkid
Smash Cadet
Meta Knight? He does tons of damage, but nobody I know has figured out how to reliably KO with him. Also, while I think Snake is a great character, I find him lacking in 1v1. He's amazing in chaos 4 player FFA, but 1v1 many of his moves lose their effectiveness. I'd move both of these guys down a bit. I don't know if you intended this list to have rankings within the tier, but in my experience Meta Knight and Snake are probably High Tier, maybe lower for Snake if we're considering 1v1 only.
Your distribution seems to be shifted towards the bottom. In order of Top, High, Middle, Low, Bottom, you have 4, 6, 14, 7, and 5 respectively. If Middle Tier is to represent average, we should have an even spread about it. I'd say either move some of the Low/Bottom up, or move some of the Middle up.
Also, a note about Lucas. I don't know how many people have decided to customize their control setup, but there are some great tricks Lucus can pull with a B-stick setup. Retreating PK Fire, zap magnet, psi magnet/edgehog tricks, and other weird momentum effects. Other characters can do some weird stuff with a B-stick, but Lucus's tricks are far more pronounced. So I'd expect him to be a bit higher once people figure out how to put all this stuff to good use.
I just now realized that the two character's I'd move lower are marked with a D, and the one I'd move up is marked with a U. So yeah, overall I think this is an excellent layout here. Nice job with it.
EDIT:
On Yoshi. I found I completely kicked all my friends butts with this guy for about 6 rounds. Then they figured out how his strange air movement worked and I kept getting pwned. I think once people get some experience fighting against him he's much less effective. Maybe deserves Low Tier though.
Blad01
Smash Lord
> Here is my tier list :
-----------
Top Tier :
MetaKnight
Game & Watch
Snake ? I didn' play any good snake.
Ice Climbers
High Tier :
(no to so far from Top)
Olimar
Toon Link
Marth
Wolf
Lucas
King Dedede
Pikachu
ROB
Zelda
Luigi
Diddy Kong
Falco
Mid Tier :
Wario
Sheik (?)
Zero Suit Samus
Fox
Mario
Kirby
Jigglypuff
Squirtle
Lucario
Pit (High Mid Tier ?)
Yoshi
Peach
Charizard
Samus
Capt. Falcon
Sonic
Ivysaur (I don't really know)
Ness
Ganondorf
Donkey Kong
Link
Low Tier :
No-one ! SSBB is more balanced than SSBM.
--------------
Top Tier :
MetaKnight
Game & Watch
Snake ? I didn' play any good snake.
Ice Climbers
High Tier :
(no to so far from Top)
Olimar
Toon Link
Marth
Wolf
Lucas
King Dedede
Pikachu
ROB
Zelda
Luigi
Diddy Kong
Falco
Mid Tier :
Wario
Sheik (?)
Zero Suit Samus
Fox
Mario
Kirby
Jigglypuff
Squirtle
Lucario
Pit (High Mid Tier ?)
Yoshi
Peach
Charizard
Samus
Capt. Falcon
Sonic
Ivysaur (I don't really know)
Ness
Ganondorf
Donkey Kong
Link
Low Tier :
No-one ! SSBB is more balanced than SSBM.
--------------
I would like to do a tier list that everyone would satisfy everybody... so tell me what is wronf for you
bigman40
Smash Master
IC should be about high while marth should be bottom of top. Other than that, i'm good. I would like to know where you would place the ones you don't know though.
EDIT: I surmise that you only know the basics of Yoshi. After learning the newer techs associated with yoshi, he's not that bad. Yoshi takes more time to learn efficiently than mostly any other character. I wouldn't suggest rating yoshi until you play someone who knows how to play him.
EDIT: I surmise that you only know the basics of Yoshi. After learning the newer techs associated with yoshi, he's not that bad. Yoshi takes more time to learn efficiently than mostly any other character. I wouldn't suggest rating yoshi until you play someone who knows how to play him.
Unusual_Rex
Smash Journeyman
Thanks you very much for the reply. Yeah, I noticed I sorta had bad distribuition with the top-high-middle-low-bottom stuff.
The reason for Meta Knight and Snake being high is due to the amount of advantages they have. On the Match-Up chart they are fairly good, and on the character ranking chart they are both at the top.
I can see Lucas being higher to tell you the truth I did bump him up about 3-4 places due to his B-Sticking. What kept him a bit lower was that the other character in front of him had some chain grabs (Ice Climbers) and had more advantages.
As I said in my post. This will most likely change as more advanced techniques come in, the match-up chart is updated, and the character ranking is updated.
Hopefully this will be accurate for the time being.
Yoshi needs to utilize tactics suited to his specialties to perform well, a lot like you were just explaining Lucas does. It's hardly fair to say that because you picked him up and then lost with him once your friends figured out your movements that he deserves low tier, when you weren't working at any of his specific tactics.
Then go win tournaments with him and make him higher tiered. Until then, stop *****ing.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Bigman is on the tier discussion boards? And trying to explain to people that yoshi isnt bad!? Dont waste ur breath, just discuss other characters.
OK, let's get this cleared up.
META-KNIGHT GETS KOS.
D-smash kills. UpB kills. Grazy gimping abilities kill. Get with it, no one has thought that he can't kill since the first day Brawl came out.
And as far as Yoshi goes, characters like Yoshi are constantly coming on to this thread and saying how they shouldn't be in low tier. You say that we don't try playing them and therefore don't know what we're talking about. To be higher than low tier, it has to be obvious that they have stuff going for them. Noobs should be able to tell that they're good. That's why, for all my defense of him, Ivysaur will never be higher than low tier. And of course you get people telling you that tournament placements are all that matters, even though that's mostly a population contest.
But yes, Yoshi should not be bottom. He's better than that.
META-KNIGHT GETS KOS.
D-smash kills. UpB kills. Grazy gimping abilities kill. Get with it, no one has thought that he can't kill since the first day Brawl came out.
And as far as Yoshi goes, characters like Yoshi are constantly coming on to this thread and saying how they shouldn't be in low tier. You say that we don't try playing them and therefore don't know what we're talking about. To be higher than low tier, it has to be obvious that they have stuff going for them. Noobs should be able to tell that they're good. That's why, for all my defense of him, Ivysaur will never be higher than low tier. And of course you get people telling you that tournament placements are all that matters, even though that's mostly a population contest.
But yes, Yoshi should not be bottom. He's better than that.
flyingpork002
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2008
- Messages
- 102
did I miss something? since when was G & W a top tier character. Like 2 weeks ago everyone said that he got some buffs and was maybe mid this time around. What happened, why is he so high now. Also, diddy kong is definetely a high tier character, not mid. He is very well balanced, but has good speed and the best combos in the game.
Unusual_Rex
Smash Journeyman
I wouldn't say Yoshi is bad, just loads of character are better than him Hahaha.
Tier list don't make a character suck, it means it's just more difficult for him to win.
Hahaha.Tier list don't make a character suck, it means it's just more difficult for him to win.
bigman40
Smash Master
How about you get facts striaght before you talk ****? I'm college bound, and where i'm at, I'll be god's doing if I get more tournaments near me. Tier aren't EXACTLY based on tournament winnings. Character matchups play a part in this, and half the explanations about yoshi aren't accurate. I don't come around b******* to people unless they made wrong staements about things, but ignorant people like you make it next to impossible to have a fair debate.
Burntsocks, im done here anyways. I don't care how the list will end up. I'll just have fun laughing at how underated people make to characters they fail to learn efficiently.
Burntsocks, im done here anyways. I don't care how the list will end up. I'll just have fun laughing at how underated people make to characters they fail to learn efficiently.
VersatileBJN
Smash Ace
Its crazy how defensive Yoshi players get
but seriously, Yoshi is pretty decent.
He is AT LEAST better than Ganondorf for sure.
Bair guarantees up smash, and Eggs help his recovery a load. He's not a bad character at all. It's just a lot of characters are better.
Fight Pride's Yoshi. It's rediculous
but seriously, Yoshi is pretty decent.
He is AT LEAST better than Ganondorf for sure.
Bair guarantees up smash, and Eggs help his recovery a load. He's not a bad character at all. It's just a lot of characters are better.
Fight Pride's Yoshi. It's rediculous
Unusual_Rex
Smash Journeyman
I'll agree with you Bigman40 most people on here are cocky, and fairly ignorant.
What I notice is that Yoshi players come in here and post once or twice about how great Yoshi is, then leave before people can ask them why he's so good. They never offer where they think he should be on the tier list, either. So let me ask you, Yoshi mainers, what makes Yoshi better than the tier listers think he is, and where do you think he should be? Also, what has changed about him from Melee that makes him better than he was then?
VersatileBJN
Smash Ace
Yoshi has
- a quick throw with range
- bair which has high priority, speed, safeness and guarantees up air
- Eggs to really hinder an opponent's edge guarding as well as approach, and also help for recovering
- High priority up tilt and uair
Thats what sticks out to me when fighting good Yoshis
I personally just don't see how Yoshi is better than anyone in the cast except Ganondorf, Jigglypuff and maybe Captain Falcon though. It's like someone else said. He's not a bad character, it's just he lacks any serious redeeming qualities.
- a quick throw with range
- bair which has high priority, speed, safeness and guarantees up air
- Eggs to really hinder an opponent's edge guarding as well as approach, and also help for recovering
- High priority up tilt and uair
Thats what sticks out to me when fighting good Yoshis
I personally just don't see how Yoshi is better than anyone in the cast except Ganondorf, Jigglypuff and maybe Captain Falcon though. It's like someone else said. He's not a bad character, it's just he lacks any serious redeeming qualities.
flyingpork002
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2008
- Messages
- 102
did anyone hear me, what happened to G & W all of a sudden that everyone thinks hes top tier now. A couple weeks ago he was like mid tier.
Unusual_Rex
Smash Journeyman
No clue sorry.
G-Dub doesn't die as early as he used to. His turtle ***** shields. Most of his attacks have a disjoint. His recovery is better now. He's an all-around bad***, the average character that Mario only wishes he was.
Any Yoshis anywhere? I see a small list of good things, but that's not enough to redeem him from his sub-par recovery and only one good aerial, not to mention his overall sluggishness.
Any Yoshis anywhere? I see a small list of good things, but that's not enough to redeem him from his sub-par recovery and only one good aerial, not to mention his overall sluggishness.
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2005
- Messages
- 9,720
- Location
- Scotch Plains, NJ
- NNID
- ShinEmblemLord
- 3DS FC
- 3926-6895-0574
- Switch FC
- SW-0793-4091-6136
Here is the thing about Yoshi.
He was buffed. He recieved pretty much nothing but buffs, although his killing power was nerfed which sucks.
Thing is he wasn't buffed to the point of being awesome like G&W or Zelda. He was just buffed to the point of not being useless like he was in SSB and SSBM. He is now a decent character.
JUST decent. Not amazing. Not great. Not even good really.
He is ok.
He was buffed. He recieved pretty much nothing but buffs, although his killing power was nerfed which sucks.
Thing is he wasn't buffed to the point of being awesome like G&W or Zelda. He was just buffed to the point of not being useless like he was in SSB and SSBM. He is now a decent character.
JUST decent. Not amazing. Not great. Not even good really.
He is ok.
- Status