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Official BBR Tier List v7

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DewDaDash

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Next time I go to NY/NJ im personally going to raptor and MMing him on the spot, i dont care if hes in a tourney match XD. that mu is not even ;.;
Snake is either even or +1, its basically the same difficulty as playing ike as d3.
 

bubbaking

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What is a MM gonna prove? Hold lil weight for how match ups work.
Well, on the DDD boards, we've gone over the MU. We looked at the supertheory. It supported Fox winning. We looked at the applicable theory (what matters). It supported an even MU. We looked at the available high/top-level evidence at various points in time. It supported DDD winning. :smash:

This reasoning was infinitely more sound than Dew's reasoning, but it came to the same conclusion. Fox doesn't beat DDD +2. He doesn't even beat him +1. Where did this notion come from?
 

Dark.Pch

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If I ever beat anti or nairo, that does not mean Peach does well vs MK. it never will. I have to put serious work to beat Peach. Even match ups I win cause of how Peach is and her flaws that are easily exposed by every character in this game. If i win its be cause I outplayed them hella hard. I did not magically boost her stats. I can't do that. No one can.

The way people base match ups is wrong. Even from top players. I said a while back that M2K thought MK loses to diddy cause he kept losing to diddy and MK should not be banned. This came from a guy who had to be taught how to Z catch items by overswarm. You really gonna believe that logic? All Because a top player said so? Salem mop the floor more then once with M2K and alot of top MK's. That does not mean ZSS beats MK or go even with him. That does not magically change the laws or abilities of the characters. Meta Knight still harasses ZSS better then she can to him. Not a single player can amp up a characters stats and abilities just because they are a top player. You are not Jebus

Match ups should not be based on what players results are. They should be based by exploring the characters options and using them affectively. This is why as I said before I work less in matches then I should be, cause people think like this and get away with stuff against other Peach players. And think it is legit. Then play me and get punished for it.
 

bubbaking

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High/top player results let you know if your analysis is on-point. If the results deviate strongly, then something is off-base. This is easy to apply when there actually ARE high-level players of your character.

Yooooooo snake vs ddd is 50-50/+1 depending on the stage

DO YOU AGREE DEWDADASH?!?!
That +1 better not be for Snake, 'cause If the MU ever shifts due to stage, it's going in DDD's favor. Please, please, PLEASE don't be dumb (unless you're trolling). What stage features could possibly give Snake the advantage? Smaller stage? That just means less room for you to run and you offstage a lot easier for edgeguarding. Delfino? Pleeaase, walls and walk-offs all over the place. Anything else is standard for a zero.
 

Bloodcross

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Raptor. If I banned Quest from all of my future tournaments, would you attempt to get Long Island to come to my next tournament?

I would gladly trade one person... actually, in this case, one deer tick for 5 or so people.
 

DewDaDash

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Well, on the DDD boards, we've gone over the MU. We looked at the supertheory. It supported Fox winning. We looked at the applicable theory (what matters). It supported an even MU. We looked at the available high/top-level evidence at various points in time. It supported DDD winning. :smash:

This reasoning was infinitely more sound than Dew's reasoning, but it came to the same conclusion. Fox doesn't beat DDD +2. He doesn't even beat him +1. Where did this notion come from?
Sorry, im pretty bad at explaining things XD. Even the oli advice was pretty bad rofl. You and TC are usually the best ones explaining those kind of things. Im just the guy that goes to tourneys and prolly can give better advice thru analyzation of my videos =l

Edit: Yea im pretty sure he meant +1 for d3 bubba, calm down :)
 

bubbaking

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Your method wasn't so much "explaining" as it was "let me show you what I'm talking about" which is perfectly valid in its own right. Everyone else, including Dark.Pch, kinda either ignored or didn't think about that. I got what you were trying to say.

Knowing how Sage worships Snake, I don't know about that... :p
 

Dark.Pch

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High/top player results let you know if your analysis is on-point. If the results deviate strongly, then something is off-base. This is easy to apply when there actually ARE high-level players of your character.
This logic is mostly true when it comes to high tiers facing off against each other. Below that, no, it does not.
 

bubbaking

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How could you think that DDD:Snake is 50:50 on Delfino? Or on Castle? Why would you saw we win on Lylat but not on CS? That makes no sense! Frigate is only 50-50 on the second phase. It's +1 for DDD on the first phase because of the right side. Potential wall + no ledge = hell for Snake. I'll give you the advantage on SV and maybe YiB. Definitely not PS1, though. Like, what good DDDs have you actually faced to give you this opinion?
 

RaptorTEC

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Raptor. If I banned Quest from all of my future tournaments, would you attempt to get Long Island to come to my next tournament?

I would gladly trade one person... actually, in this case, one deer tick for 5 or so people.
You don't have to ban Quest I'm still going to MMM5 lol. I'll try to get a carpool going but no one here ever likes to travel.
 

MikeKirby

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Ushio had the win on Vex, and Jband but has lost both sets to the stage. ;_;

rip

I don't know Snake's MU ratios but from just watching DeKillSage play against DDD, the match-up looks even. My personal perspective.
 

RaptorTEC

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Raptor take me thjrtshrety5r6uej64tr
unless you're not going to be driving anywhere in the city on the way or something
Sorry I only take people who have absolutely no chance of beating or outplacing me. :p

Nah but, if you can get to the Impact venue I can definitely pick you up from there.
 

Dekillsage

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Sorry I only take people who have absolutely no chance of beating or outplacing me. :p

Nah but, if you can get to the Impact venue I can definitely pick you up from there.
Yeah I can get there. Can you at least get me from the nearest train station that's there or if that too out of the way? It's on Jamaica-179 Street / Hillside Avenue's train station
 

RaptorTEC

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Yooo this thread went from crying about fox, to Mr. Eric getting trash talked, to people getting butthurt about stuff, to Quest defending himself, to people challenging others to mm's, to Bloodcross ban threats, to carpool discussions, and then to happy galloping sheep in under 2 days.

With that said, sure I'll take you. (:
 

Dekillsage

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Yooo this thread went from crying about fox, to Mr. Eric getting trash talked, to people getting butthurt about stuff, to Quest defending himself, to people challenging others to mm's, to Bloodcross ban threats, to carpool discussions, and then to happy galloping sheep in under 2 days.

With that said, sure I'll take you. (:
Hype!!!!
 

Luxord

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BC if u DON'T ban Quest from your tournaments, I will convince Raptor to take me and a bunch of people. Carlos when is MMM5? I feel like I wanna go to an OOR event anyways, meet new people and meet teh legendairy TL quest ahuehue
 

Dark.Pch

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Yooo this thread went from crying about fox, to Mr. Eric getting trash talked, to people getting butthurt about stuff, to Quest defending himself, to people challenging others to mm's, to Bloodcross ban threats, to carpool discussions, and then to happy galloping sheep in under 2 days.

With that said, sure I'll take you. (:
I want in on this, whats up.

Also I feel like being challenge. I starting to think Peach is better than DDD. I'm doing this to challenge myself and see if my work would lead to me officially stating peach is better. Man I can't wait for the post coming my way for saying this. This is gonna be fun.
 

Bloodcross

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Definitely go to MMM5. While I'm hosting a tourney this weekend, I'll likely host another one next month or maybe pushing it further into May.

I'm not going to ban anyone and I must admit it's an irrational impulse on my part. Also I'm not the host of MMM5 so I won't have a say either way lol.
 

Luco

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@Dark peach: Mind if I contribute here? I don't usually take a stance but I think what's the point of MU information if it's not accurate? Sure you can go to a character and analyse his/her opportunities but the fact is that sometimes it's just not practical/too risky, etc etc. Basically it's possible to have your method but only if everyone revamped how they play Brawl. Otherwise your MU chart would be based on 'on-paper' theoretics rather than what usually happens. I personally think that at the moment we should be looking at what currently happens and drawing off that because sometimes the theory just doesn't work.

An example would be Ness vs. MK. This is a MU that says Ness is just plain bad against MK but in reality he doesn't do so badly and many people argue this to be a -1 or call him to be one of the top 10 chars against MK, non-ness mains included. Player error means that this MU isn't as bad as it should be.

You could even say this applies to Marth in many MUs: He's an incredible character in theory but there's just so much to him practically that a player will mess up one way or another. It's possible that this is your problem with peach (this is only a possibility, i'm not presuming!): That you're so in to what she can theoretically do that you sometimes just can't execute, you know? The only reason I say this is because i recall you used to say that you thought how you played her was the way to go, you just couldn't pull it off.

Correct me if i'm wrong there. But anyway, on to my point. :p

Basically, i'm saying that your method isn't 'wrong', just it would require a total revamp of how Brawl is played (basing how we do MUs on what the theory says we can do, which we do to some extent but not all), which I dunno.... I think it might just be a bit too much for the community atm. But hey, who am i to judge?

Also, why did you say 'why does everyone mis-read/not read my posts' and then attack SPF for telling you what he thinks the reason is? Personally I usually read your posts but I why someone wouldn't. You can't have it both ways though; either you feel fine with your posting and keep it that way or say 'I can make this better/here's what i'm doing wrong' and change it. Either way is fine (going your own way is a good thing sometimes!) but I think you're tryign to have your cake and eat it too.

is it just me?

Sorry dark peach, I don't mean to be offensive or anything... I do respect you and i'm a nobody, this is just kinda what I see... I guess... :(

Also, Iota is a talented player. I wish online wasn't so bad between countries, I enjoyed versing him when we did play.
 

Dark.Pch

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@Dark peach: Mind if I contribute here? I don't usually take a stance but I think what's the point of MU information if it's not accurate? Sure you can go to a character and analyse his/her opportunities but the fact is that sometimes it's just not practical/too risky, etc etc. Basically it's possible to have your method but only if everyone revamped how they play Brawl. Otherwise your MU chart would be based on 'on-paper' theoretics rather than what usually happens. I personally think that at the moment we should be looking at what currently happens and drawing off that because sometimes the theory just doesn't work.

An example would be Ness vs. MK. This is a MU that says Ness is just plain bad against MK but in reality he doesn't do so badly and many people argue this to be a -1 or call him to be one of the top 10 chars against MK, non-ness mains included. Player error means that this MU isn't as bad as it should be.

You could even say this applies to Marth in many MUs: He's an incredible character in theory but there's just so much to him practically that a player will mess up one way or another. It's possible that this is your problem with peach (this is only a possibility, i'm not presuming!): That you're so in to what she can theoretically do that you sometimes just can't execute, you know? The only reason I say this is because i recall you used to say that you thought how you played her was the way to go, you just couldn't pull it off.

Correct me if i'm wrong there. But anyway, on to my point. :p

Basically, i'm saying that your method isn't 'wrong', just it would require a total revamp of how Brawl is played (basing how we do MUs on what the theory says we can do, which we do to some extent but not all), which I dunno.... I think it might just be a bit too much for the community atm. But hey, who am i to judge?

Also, why did you say 'why does everyone mis-read/not read my posts' and then attack SPF for telling you what he thinks the reason is? Personally I usually read your posts but I why someone wouldn't. You can't have it both ways though; either you feel fine with your posting and keep it that way or say 'I can make this better/here's what i'm doing wrong' and change it. Either way is fine (going your own way is a good thing sometimes!) but I think you're tryign to have your cake and eat it too.

is it just me?

Sorry dark peach, I don't mean to be offensive or anything... I do respect you and i'm a nobody, this is just kinda what I see... I guess... :(

Also, Iota is a talented player. I wish online wasn't so bad between countries, I enjoyed versing him when we did play.
When I talk about match ups and what my character can do in them, I am not just pulling stuff off of my mind. This is stuff I have tested myself in tournaments. I also put myself in risky situations on purpose and try to figure out ways of dealing with them. An example of this would be me being near the ledge against Marth. And I tell my friend to try his best to keep me from getting past him. And my job would be to obviously try to get behind him or just get him off me. I test stuff before I say anything. Therocrafting would be doing stuff and not testing it to see if it works. I don't do that.

On top of that after a tournament or smashfest, I sit down and type stuff up on my computer. I review my matches I had for the day watch my vids. I keep note why I was taking so much damage. And how I was dishing so much damage. Then I question what I could have done better. As well as what the enemy could have done better. This vid of my explains it all if curious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss91wEqdD1k

Im not gonna talk about something I don't know about or have tried with my character. If someone was to ask me how the match up of Peach vs wolf go, I could not answer them. I don't have a solid game plan on how I would fight wolf. If I was to beat a wolf player, it be on his habits and what he thinks he can get away with on me. Not because I know the match up. Mostly likely I would lose to an average wolf cause of this. I could not give a ratio on what I think that match up is. I would not even be apart of the topic. Same for ROB (though think I am getting the hang of it). And I feel with the match ups even at high level, people just do stuff, and if it works they don't make sure if it is legit. It could be that it worked cause people just don't know how to deal with it, lazy,etc.

With SFP, I was being honest with him. Me being honest just came off mean. I don't have a problem with him at all. Just like he was being honest with me. Though I expected people too see me as a scumbag for it.

And lastly, I have said I don't use Peach they way I know I am suppose too. Reason for that is for reason many people in this community know by now. I have one of the worst cases of anxiety mixed with depression. I can play like a god in friendlies if I am not bored or tired. The way i am suppose to with her. Then come tournament time I play like a coward. As if I just started learning Peach. I just can't function.

This year I decided to target that problem and not enter a tournament will I have fixed it. I'm currently seeing a doc. I have been since a month ago. On top of that I usually play this game every day doing things as shown in my video above. Once I feel I am ready and tweeked peach metagame along with mine, I will return and start entering tournaments. For now I just go to them and play people to test stuff and etc. I think I will be ready for tournaments next month. But not feeling so sure and might push my tournament jump start to june. Teams on the other hand I think I can handle just fine without me being ready yet. So for the run of it I might do teams.

Think that about clears everything up. Dark.Pch 2013. This spring......or summer. **** is real.
 

Gadiel_VaStar

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When I talk about match ups and what my character can do in them, I am not just pulling stuff off of my mind. This is stuff I have tested myself in tournaments. I also put myself in risky situations on purpose and try to figure out ways of dealing with them. An example of this would be me being near the ledge against Marth. And I tell my friend to try his best to keep me from getting past him. And my job would be to obviously try to get behind him or just get him off me. I test stuff before I say anything. Therocrafting would be doing stuff and not testing it to see if it works. I don't do that.

On top of that after a tournament or smashfest, I sit down and type stuff up on my computer. I review my matches I had for the day watch my vids. I keep note why I was taking so much damage. And how I was dishing so much damage. Then I question what I could have done better. As well as what the enemy could have done better. This vid of my explains it all if curious:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss91wEqdD1k

Im not gonna talk about something I don't know about or have tried with my character. If someone was to ask me how the match up of Peach vs wolf go, I could not answer them. I don't have a solid game plan on how I would fight wolf. If I was to beat a wolf player, it be on his habits and what he thinks he can get away with on me. Not because I know the match up. Mostly likely I would lose to an average wolf cause of this. I could not give a ratio on what I think that match up is. I would not even be apart of the topic. Same for ROB (though think I am getting the hang of it). And I feel with the match ups even at high level, people just do stuff, and if it works they don't make sure if it is legit. It could be that it worked cause people just don't know how to deal with it, lazy,etc.

With SFP, I was being honest with him. Me being honest just came off mean. I don't have a problem with him at all. Just like he was being honest with me. Though I expected people too see me as a scumbag for it.

And lastly, I have said I don't use Peach they way I know I am suppose too. Reason for that is for reason many people in this community know by now. I have one of the worst cases of anxiety mixed with depression. I can't play like a god in friendlies if I am not bored or tired. The way i am suppose to with her. Then come tournament time I play like a coward. As if I just started learning Peach. I just can't function.

This year I decided to target that problem and not enter a tournament will I have fixed it. I'm currently seeing a doc. I have been since a month ago. On top of that I usually play this game every day doing things as shown in my video above. Once I feel I am ready and tweeked peach metagame along with mine, I will return and start entering tournaments. For now I just go to them and play people to test stuff and etc. I think I will be ready for tournaments next month. But not feeling so sure and might push my tournament jump start to june. Teams on the other hand I think I can handle just fine without me being ready yet. So for the run of it I might do teams.

Think that about clears everything up. Dark.Pch 2013. This spring......or summer. **** is real.
GL Dark.Pch, I believe in you bro. I'm glad you're finding your bad habits and making a new metagame for yourself & your character.
 
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