Official BBR Tier List v7

[Z'zgashi]

^ This. Only reason an MK should be losing to anyone is getting outplayed, lack of MU experience, and/or being a less good player.

 

[bubbaking]

I think ESAM is shooting for an even match up again. I'm not entirely sure though.

Yes, he is.

being a less good player.

That's a funny (maybe politically correct?) way of saying "worse player".

 

[Z'zgashi]

Pretty sure they mean the exact same thing.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, they do, but worse is more concise at the cost of, well, sounding a little more harsh.

Waddles stop nades.

Sorta? I mean you can stop one grenade with waddle and then I start jump tossing them.

So you're gonna start jumping into the air just to throw grenades? Good luck.

 

[Luco]

ESAM himself is usually the one to provide those consistent results, but he also puts in work with IC's.

True but it's still pika results. Like, we shouldn't discredit him just because he's an amazing player anyway. We had the discussion ages ago: A character shouldn't go down because what we think they're results should be, they go up/down because of what their results are (among other things). If ESAM's getting consistent results with pika and shooting for an even MU with MK again, I think pika's fine where he is IMO. Maybe one spot down at most.

As for the even MU with MK, I dunno if ESAM thinks that anymore. The only character people are really considering for even with MK is IC's, which is heavily stage (and rule) dependant.

He does now, I think. ICs could possibly be even with MK on a conservative stage-list. But a conservative stage-list just means ICs become almost as good as MK and we have 2 broken characters in the game instead of 1: Currently the ICs are hard as heck but manageable.

 

[bubbaking]

On the stage list we have now, I would argue that we already have 2 broken characters.

ESAM could also be seen as an outlier, which somewhat nullifies his results. What excuse do you have for Ganon still being at the bottom after pulling in all his results?

#Devil'sAdvocate

 

[bubbaking]

I'm not uber tired any more so I'll reply to these. Prepare for wall of text.

The only reason I see DDD vs Snake being in DDD favor is its much easier to screw over snake than a DDD.

No, it's not. Read my post from way earlier where I nearly 0-to-death'd Fatal. That doesn't happen to DDD. This MU is only even because Snake hits hard and he walls well. That and we share some similar weaknesses (which are pronounced in Snake).

The two are nearly even so many ways and ideally it should be Snake's favor, but it just doesn't come out that way in play.

You mean "ideally" Snake is supposed to never get grabbed? Lolz, now which of his traits would lead you to believe that? On paper, Snake is a pretty bad character. "Ideally" DDD can PS everything Snake does and gets easy shieldgrabs, which lead into CGs, which lead into gimps. "Ideally", this MU is +1 or +2 DDD. It just so happens that Snake is a lot better in practice than he is on paper.

To me, DDD my as well not even have a projectile. Its only when he gets lucky with the waddle dee and gordo that it makes any difference in play typically. Therefore, his coverage on the ground is outmatched by Snake. Thus, snake can play around outside of DDD's range without commitment.

You are a prime example of someone who's speaking without any proper knowledge of DDD. Waddles stop 'nades. If you keep taking your chances against Waddles, the possibility of being hit by a Gordo is very real (I've seen WAY too many high-level matches decided or almost decided by Gordo hits) and it's not something that you can chalk up to "Well, the DDD got lucky," because it's a risk YOU incur every time you spin the wheel of chance (by not blocking or dodging my Waddle). If you got hit by a Gordo and lost because of it, then you shouldn't have been dealing with my Waddle Toss so carelessly. If we're continually throwing Waddles, it means we're cycling through the roulette (consciously or unconsciously) and you're disregarding it at your own expense.

DDD solidly beats out Snake at both mid- and close-range. Our tilts out-range everything you do and send you into the air or offstage, and our grab obviously wrecks. At long range, ftilt can get rid of 'nades without us harming ourselves, but admittedly, Snake wins the long-range war of attrition. However, once we start closing in on you, we can trap you and create a very bad situation for you where your only real option is to DACUS to escape. Upon reading that, we can pivot grab or roll back > retaliate to stuff it. Once we get in, the odds are in our favor.

Oh, and how is DDD going to get a reliable KO? Without commitment part, Snake will generally be able to have a cop out and avoid all KO situations that are grounded. If Snake is being hit by any of those moves Utilt, Dsmash, Fsmash, or Usmash, then he chose the option that while might have gotten him to ground faster there was still the option to avoid being hit and thus live. Therefore, the typically KO move should be Fair or Bair from DDD. This contributes to Snake living a really long time unless DDD can manage to get an aerial gimp on snake near say 100% or something.

The problem with your statements here is that we don't mind too much taking a little while to kill you because we also live a long time. Your KO options are literally no more reliable than ours (and you also have LESS). No DDD in his right mind would ever use fsmash to try to kill outside of, like, the hardest of reads. Once we get you in the air, which is easy, you now have to deal with the likes of uair (which also kills), usmash, utilt, and everything else in our arsenal, really. You're also ignoring the fact that our CG automatically creates edgeguarding situations where we can either gimp you early or rack up way more damage on you. We can kill you at any %, not just 100%, lolz! It's on you to avoid those 'easily gimped' situations, and usually, avoiding them puts you in position to eat a whole bunch of damage anyway.

These statements by you in particular...

If Snake is being hit by any of those moves Utilt, Dsmash, Fsmash, or Usmash, then he chose the option that while might have gotten him to ground faster there was still the option to avoid being hit and thus live. Therefore, the typically KO move should be Fair or Bair from DDD.

sound kinda dumb (no offense intended) because they really come off as uninformed and somewhat misguided. What you mention is exactly what reads are all about. If you choose to take longer to get to the ground, we can very easily punish that with like, everything. Just choosing to take longer to descend to avoid punishments of quick descents doesn't save you from ANYTHING. What happens revolves around a read-based RPS situation that is stacked heavily in our favor. Pretty much everything you mentioned (utilt, usmash, dsmash, plus some other that you missed) will still work on you, even if you try to 'take your time' as long as we read that and react appropriately. You have NO guaranteed way of avoiding being hit once you are in the air in our vicinity.

It's not very smart to say "Getting hit by a KO move by choosing to get down faster could have easily been circumvented by avoiding the hit." Well, duh! That's how descent mix-ups work, which Snake doesn't have much of. If we read anything that you're going to do, you're getting hit and you might just lose your stock. Btw, are you aware that, on top of everything else, DDD can just grab Snake's landing?

The chain grab is not that big of deal. Well, again it shouldn't be. Its guaranteed damage after a grab, but snake has the same option with player error coming into account. DDD fits into the notch of one of the few characters Snake should absolutely get free chain grabs on. With his roll range being lower than most others and his get-up attack pointed away first, then towards, DDD is someone snake should feasibly be able to CG to death.

........................................................
Go find me a good match between Snake and DDD where a Snake CGs someone to death. How can you say DDD's CG isn't a big deal? It's a huge chunk of damage that puts Snake offstage and/or in the air. Survivability is one of Snake's biggest gimmicks and our CG takes a large portion of that away. Snake's recovery is one of the WORST in the game when it comes to avoiding getting hit, so the hits you sustain while recovering is gonna take even more of your suvivability away. You could even be gimped super early, all because of that CG (again, see my earlier post where I talk about my match with Fatal). Oh, and what about CPs? Do you like being infinited against walls into usmash/utilt kills? How about being CG'd through walk-offs? The CG is a big deal and one of the only reasons this MU is even is because you avoid it like the plague.

The downside to the whole match is when either character makes a mistake and it leads to heavy punishment. Again, should be heavy punishment from Snake's side. He does have the tools and methods to deal with anything DDD can try. Horizontal range in the air is so bad he can just walk out of range and ftilt/dash attack once DDD is in lag (taking care to realize the mode of how DDD hit the ground and react accordingly.) But in reality, DDD gets the guaranteed option of CG into a bad situation while Snake's guaranteed CG is riddled with opportunity for error.

Guaranteed CG from Snake? It's a GREAT tech-chase tool, I'll give you that. It can very easily lead to a hard punish from Snake that gives a bunch of damage but I have yet to see the day when "good TC" = "guaranteed CG". DDD punishes just as hard as Snake does in this MU, if not harder. Snake just racks up more damage from a distance while having good tilts and a good edgeguarding game.

Ideally, Snake should win. Realistically, I see its even. To the general public, it may as well be DDD's favor.

Ideally DDD should win. Realistically, it's even. To the general public, it could be seen as either one.

When I spoke to Fatal about this MU, he said his opinion was that, if anything, the MU was slightly in DDD's favor but it's probably even. All the DDDs agree that the MU is either even or in DDD's favor. So do all the Snakes, as far as I know. This is one of those 'old-school' MUs that hasn't changed in how it's been played for a while now, and it's easily something that I don't think will change for a very long time.

 

[DMG]

Dedede players getting the infinite down would change the MU quite a bit. That's one of the few improvements left imo.

 

[bubbaking]

You mean the pivot grab infinite? I think all the top DDD players said it's near impossible to get down consistently at a competitive level. It's just too.....frame-tight. Granted, a lot of DDDs don't even use his easier stuff, like standing/ledge infinites and dthrow > usmash enough.

 

[DMG]

I might have to experiment with setting grab to Y/X. I feel like Z button is making it harder than usual to do that.

 

[ぱみゅ]

You have to use the C-stick so....

The hard part about the infinite is actually having to move the Stick to three different directions, then the Z+Cstick, all in less than 10 frames...

 

[DMG]

???

Why do you need C-stick for the infinite when you are just grabbing? I understand C-stick for Dthrow --> Usmash, but when does C-stick come into play when I'm trying to grab again?

 

[bubbaking]

Actually, you DON'T want to use the C-stick for dthrow > JC usmash. I think it still works but it's way harder for some reason. You actually want to use the jump button (or if you're crazy like me, the control stick).

Edit: Also, you can grab with the C-stick in select situations, but I forget which.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Esam is one player. If we had 15 Esams, the Mu would probably seem even

 

[bubbaking]

Other than Money Knight I don't think the top tiers are that much better than each other so you can change the spots around Pikachu and Zss top tiers though? I'd have to disagree there. Pikachu is a character who can beat some of the top tiers but isn't top tier himself. When I look at ROB I look at his tools and it just screams high tier with so much more potential.

Yep, until you run into a DDD or a MK that completely invalidates you. Not sure you you can argue about ZSS not being top tier after she won Apex while another ZSS still got top 32. The fact that she doesn't have a single -2 when most of Top Tier does and she's been placing well in tourneys since 2010 kinda screams that as well. If you're lowering HT's standards enough to include ROB (and not Fox, Wolf, Peach, or Pit), then you should definitely boot ZSS up into TT, maybe Lucario and DDD as well, lolz! Also, what business does ROB have being HT with his MU spread?

Pretty much spot on. Getting CG'd isn't scary because of the damage, its scary because of the positioning. Without it DDD can't kill snake without making a hard read and committing.

It doesn't matter which way you cut it. The bottom line is that at the end of the day, DDD's CG is still "scary" for Snake, whether it's for the damage or the great positioning. It doesn't matter whether we can kill you without it or not because the fact of the matter is that we DO have it and we get to kill you so much earlier because of it. I mean, your statement is the equivalent of me saying "Without grenades, Snake can't keep DDD out and he can't kill him either without a hard read and committing." That sounds a lot like a useless statement, doesn't it? It's unnecessary to say, seeing as how you already have 'nades and nothing I say or do can change that fact or the fact that they help you keep this MU even. If DDD didn't have a CG, this MU might be +1 or +2 Snake, but conversely, if you didn't have 'nades, it would be +2 or +3 DDD.

Snake vs DDD at camping isn't even a contest. Sure you can powershield grenades or even toss them back at me. The problem is there's two of them, but with different timers and different positions. You can powershield and bounce it back but I can drop it right back down with my 2nd grenade or I can catch it and toss it back. DDD is too big to try and camp snake, he should always be trying to make an approach ever so slowly.

Actually, with a big enough lead (like, a solid stock lead, not one where you're a stock down but I'm at death %'s), I'm starting to wonder what Snake is supposed to do to a campy DDD. Waddles block 'nades. If you start jumping to toss them over, then you're in the air, our Waddles will probably hit you, and/or nothing will happen (to either side). On top of that, DDD can air/platform camp, something that Snake can't do. Our nair goes through your mortar and our ftilt can also safely destroy your 'nades. I mean, I'd never suggest it, but DDD might be able to win via camping with a good lead.

 

[Kewkky]

If we had 15 Salems, ZSS would be way higher up in the tier list. And if we had 15 M2K's/insert other best MK, we wouldn't have stopped banning him universally.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I meant if we had 15 top level pikachus

 

[bubbaking]

We don't have 15 top MKs?

I thought the only reason a certain MK didn't place well in tournament was 'cause another MK beat him to the punch. *Looks at Apex results* Yep, I'm right!

 

[SaveMeJebus]

There were also non mk players that knocked out each other example DEHF

 

[Kewkky]

We have a lot of top MKs, but we don't have 15 "best" MKs. As in, 15 M2K/Otori/etc level MKs. We have top-level MKs, and then we have the best of the top levels. That's what I meant.

 

[bubbaking]

There were also non mk players that knocked out each other example DEHF

Yeah, but we don't have 15 top Falcos.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

We have about 10. We only have like 2 at most for any other character

 

[SaveMeJebus]

They have about 10. We only have like 2 at most for every other character

 

[Luco]

They have about 10. We only have like 2 at most for every other character

Off the top of my head...

ICs: ESAM, Vinnie, 9B
ZSS: NR, Salem, maybe V115?
DDD: I can't remember names but I recall there being a few.
Wolf: Again, can't think of names but i'm sure he has a few.
Snake: Ally, Fatal, Razer
Marth: Mikeneko, Leon, Mr. R, more...
Lucas: Mekos, FAE, PF

There's not many.... but they're there.

For some of them, i'm not entirely sure they're absolute top but they're names that come in to my head and i'm pretty noob with this stuff so if I've heard of them then...

 

[DeLux]

Just to clarify what SFP said, it's 6-16 in game count. If you are talking like enough game to make an actual set count removing ICs from the equation, it's 1-6-3 (or 1-7-2 using a floating tie breaker game) in sets.

 

[bubbaking]

DeLux, you can't just remove the ICs games and use the Pika games to make a set because of how sets work. There are bans and char CPs involved and such and at the end of the day, a partial set counts far less than........

Actually, while typing that, I realized, DeLux, what are you even saying? What do those numbers mean? Not trolling, sincerely got confused mid-post.

Edit: I'm mostly confused by the three-number format? How do sets end in 'ties' (assuming that the third number is a tie count?)

 

[Kewkky]

1-6-3 would mean 1 win, 6 losses, 3 draws?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Off the top of my head...

ICs: ESAM, Vinnie, 9B
ZSS: NR, Salem, maybe V115?
DDD: I can't remember names but I recall there being a few.
Wolf: Again, can't think of names but i'm sure he has a few.
Snake: Ally, Fatal, Razer
Marth: Mikeneko, Leon, Mr. R, more...
Lucas: Mekos, FAE, PF

There's not many.... but they're there.

For some of them, i'm not entirely sure they're absolute top but they're names that come in to my head and i'm pretty noob with this stuff so if I've heard of them then...

7 out of 36 other characters. and some of those are not even top level

Yeah, but we don't have 15 top Falcos.

and that's why it looks like MK beats Falco

 

[bubbaking]

But.......how do sets end in draws? (O_o)

Off the top of my head...

ZSS: NR, Salem, maybe V115?
DDD: I can't remember names but I recall there being a few.
Wolf: Again, can't think of names but i'm sure he has a few.
Snake: Ally, Fatal, Razer
Marth: Mikeneko, Leon, Mr. R, more...
Lucas: Mekos, FAE, PF

ZSS: Also QuikSilver
DDD: Coney, Atomsk, Vex, 4GOD, and maybe Seibrik and Zekey
Wolf: Kain and Seagull
Snake: Also Havok, MVD, and Bizkit
Marth: MikeHaze, man, how did you forget MikeHaze? Also Kadaj and maybe NEO

 

[Kewkky]

I dunno, but DeLux really didn't explain. :\

 

[SaveMeJebus]

But.......how do sets end in draws? (O_o)



ZSS: Also QuikSilver
DDD: Coney, Atomsk, Vex, 4GOD, and maybe Seibrik and Zekey
Wolf: Kain and Seagull
Snake: Also Havok, MVD, and Bizkit
Marth: MikeHaze, man, how did you forget MikeHaze? Also Kadaj and maybe NEO

most of those are high level.

 

[DeLux]

I mean, you can make that argument if you want Bubba, but if anyone was doing the CPing in those sets, it was ESAM and not the other way around. Further, ESAM generally either opened with Pika and switched to ICs in the CP process so I mean it's not too much of an impact in rule relevancy

The three draws being going 1 and 1 with Ally twice before switching to ICs and the same with Anti at Apex. However there's a floating game 1 loss with Anti from Skatr, thus why I left the actual record up to interpretation for the significant numbers

 

[infiniteV115]

I'm not a top ZSS.

 

[bubbaking]

We have a lot of top MKs, but we don't have 15 "best" MKs. As in, 15 M2K/Otori/etc level MKs. We have top-level MKs, and then we have the best of the top levels. That's what I meant.

Well, let's see. I'm going to assume that Kakera is a "best"-level MK because he got 5th at Apex 2012, which is pretty darn "best" and is also the same placing that Ally got (going solo MK). Now I'm going to look at all the MKs at Apex 2013 that placed as well as or better than Kakera and list them all as "best"-level MKs. Admittedly, this logic may be somewhat faulty, but it more or less gives a good idea of all the top-of-the-line MKs:

1. Kakera
2. Tyrant
3. Pwii
4. Rain
5. Zero
6. Dojo
7. Anti
8. Nairo
9. Otori
10. M2K

Now this is just solo-MKs. If we include the players who went a very notable amount of MK with a some help from other chars, we get:

1. Ally (he also got 5th at Apex 2012 going solo MK, mind you)
2. Havok
3. NAKAT

So we arguably have 13 "best of the top level" MKs. That's a lot. Perhaps we shouldn't have "stopped banning him universally".

 

[ぱみゅ]

Nakat being a top MK? I even doubt about Havok... but meh, who am I to talk about others' skill level?

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, perhaps that number should be cut down to 11 now that I think about it, but Ally's definitely up there and 11's still a pretty big number, especially considering that this was an estimation for the number of "best of the top-level" MKs. The number of just top-level MKs is MUCH greater.

 

[Luco]

7 out of 36 other characters. and some of those are not even top level



and that's why it looks like MK beats Falco

As I said, just off the top of my head. There'd be more.

most of those are high level.

Some of them yeah, but not all of them.

I'm not a top ZSS.

K.

 

[bubbaking]

most of those are high level.

I wouldn't go so far as to say most. Going by their achievements (whom they've beaten) and/or their results at Apex 2012 and 2013, Coney, Atomsk, Vex, Seibrik, Kain, Havok, and MikeHaze are all most probably top level. If I wanted to be more liberal, I'd say that 4GOD could arguably also go on that list.

 

[Peachy-Desu]

i'm not uber tired any more so i'll reply to these. Prepare for wall of text.



No, it's not. Read my post from way earlier where i nearly 0-to-death'd fatal. That doesn't happen to ddd. This mu is only even because snake hits hard and he walls well. That and we share some similar weaknesses (which are pronounced in snake).



You mean "ideally" snake is supposed to never get grabbed? Lolz, now which of his traits would lead you to believe that? on paper, snake is a pretty bad character. "ideally" ddd can ps everything snake does and gets easy shieldgrabs, which lead into cgs, which lead into gimps. "ideally", this mu is +1 or +2 ddd. It just so happens that snake is a lot better in practice than he is on paper.



You are a prime example of someone who's speaking without any proper knowledge of ddd. Waddles stop 'nades. If you keep taking your chances against waddles, the possibility of being hit by a gordo is very real (i've seen way too many high-level matches decided or almost decided by gordo hits) and it's not something that you can chalk up to "well, the ddd got lucky," because it's a risk you incur every time you spin the wheel of chance (by not blocking or dodging my waddle). If you got hit by a gordo and lost because of it, then you shouldn't have been dealing with my waddle toss so carelessly. If we're continually throwing waddles, it means we're cycling through the roulette (consciously or unconsciously) and you're disregarding it at your own expense.

Ddd solidly beats out snake at both mid- and close-range. Our tilts out-range everything you do and send you into the air or offstage, and our grab obviously wrecks. At long range, ftilt can get rid of 'nades without us harming ourselves, but admittedly, snake wins the long-range war of attrition. However, once we start closing in on you, we can trap you and create a very bad situation for you where your only real option is to dacus to escape. Upon reading that, we can pivot grab or roll back > retaliate to stuff it. Once we get in, the odds are in our favor.



The problem with your statements here is that we don't mind too much taking a little while to kill you because we also live a long time. Your ko options are literally no more reliable than ours (and you also have less). No ddd in his right mind would ever use fsmash to try to kill outside of, like, the hardest of reads. Once we get you in the air, which is easy, you now have to deal with the likes of uair (which also kills), usmash, utilt, and everything else in our arsenal, really. You're also ignoring the fact that our cg automatically creates edgeguarding situations where we can either gimp you early or rack up way more damage on you. We can kill you at any %, not just 100%, lolz! It's on you to avoid those 'easily gimped' situations, and usually, avoiding them puts you in position to eat a whole bunch of damage anyway.

These statements by you in particular...

Sound kinda dumb (no offense intended) because they really come off as uninformed and somewhat misguided. What you mention is exactly what reads are all about. If you choose to take longer to get to the ground, we can very easily punish that with like, everything. Just choosing to take longer to descend to avoid punishments of quick descents doesn't save you from anything. What happens revolves around a read-based rps situation that is stacked heavily in our favor. Pretty much everything you mentioned (utilt, usmash, dsmash, plus some other that you missed) will still work on you, even if you try to 'take your time' as long as we read that and react appropriately. You have no guaranteed way of avoiding being hit once you are in the air in our vicinity.

It's not very smart to say "getting hit by a ko move by choosing to get down faster could have easily been circumvented by avoiding the hit." well, duh! That's how descent mix-ups work, which snake doesn't have much of. If we read anything that you're going to do, you're getting hit and you might just lose your stock. Btw, are you aware that, on top of everything else, ddd can just grab snake's landing?



........................................................
Go find me a good match between snake and ddd where a snake cgs someone to death. How can you say ddd's cg isn't a big deal? It's a huge chunk of damage that puts snake offstage and/or in the air. Survivability is one of snake's biggest gimmicks and our cg takes a large portion of that away. Snake's recovery is one of the worst in the game when it comes to avoiding getting hit, so the hits you sustain while recovering is gonna take even more of your suvivability away. You could even be gimped super early, all because of that cg (again, see my earlier post where i talk about my match with fatal). Oh, and what about cps? Do you like being infinited against walls into usmash/utilt kills? How about being cg'd through walk-offs? The cg is a big deal and one of the only reasons this mu is even is because you avoid it like the plague.



Guaranteed cg from snake? It's a great tech-chase tool, i'll give you that. It can very easily lead to a hard punish from snake that gives a bunch of damage but i have yet to see the day when "good tc" = "guaranteed cg". Ddd punishes just as hard as snake does in this mu, if not harder. Snake just racks up more damage from a distance while having good tilts and a good edgeguarding game.



Ideally ddd should win. Realistically, it's even. To the general public, it could be seen as either one.

When i spoke to fatal about this mu, he said his opinion was that, if anything, the mu was slightly in ddd's favor but it's probably even. All the ddds agree that the mu is either even or in ddd's favor. So do all the snakes, as far as i know. This is one of those 'old-school' mus that hasn't changed in how it's been played for a while now, and it's easily something that i don't think will change for a very long time.

tl;d r

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, I did say prepare for wall of text.

#Dark.Pch2.0

tl;dr - He learned to spell.