Ussi
Smash Legend
Pika's worse MU is Marth and Lucario
Olimar is harder than MK for Pikachu.. Diddy could be argued to be harder than MK as well.
Olimar is harder than MK for Pikachu.. Diddy could be argued to be harder than MK as well.
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Official BBR Tier List v5
- Thread starter Marc
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No. the past has everything to do with it. We don't make the current meta game off of stuff that's happening this week.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
when you want to talk about pikachus worst matchups, you probably want to talk about marth. and esam did beat the best marth in the country at mlg too.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Than esam > haze, but that doesnt mean hes instantly doing better than oli, it just means hes doing good against his worst mus
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i disagree with that.
It doesnt help that he beat lees lucario quite handily, and from match three in that set I can tell he knows how to fight pikachu.
also, character and player skill are not mutually independent. you cant say that esam beat a top mk, lucario, marth, and snake, in a row, and say that it has nothing to do with pikachu being a really good character.
It doesnt help that he beat lees lucario quite handily, and from match three in that set I can tell he knows how to fight pikachu.
also, character and player skill are not mutually independent. you cant say that esam beat a top mk, lucario, marth, and snake, in a row, and say that it has nothing to do with pikachu being a really good character.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
i never said pika wasnt good, he is, i just said that olimar's been doing better
OmegaXis
Smash Cadet
Yeah i have to agree. Theres some wonderful damage to come out of ikes Dash attack :3
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
What are you talking about? It has everything to do with it. If Pikachu's top players (however few there are) have been taking top-level money at big tourneys for a long time (ESAM now, and Anther before him) it is reasonable to expect that Pikachu has some staying power. This can't yet be said for Olimar, who might possibly just be a new fad character. This is the argument I was making for ZSS' rise a while back -- she has proven her staying power, as has Pikachu. Olimar may yet show that he has a versatile enough game that he is capable of that as well, and I'm not saying it is impossible. I'm just saying two good placings at APEX and DC aren't enough yet. Didn't BigLou get top 8 in Orlando?
Incidentally, I believe Olimar to be a very good character. This isn't about my personal impression of him, it is about reality and what is actually happening/could happen in the tournament scene. If Olimar places high at Dallas, and the next few national tournaments (that is, if we're weighing national tournaments more, which we usually do) then we can start to have a serious discussion about Olimar as a top tier character. ZSS placed top 10 at every MLG except DC and we still aren't having that discussion about her. Chill out.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Still didn't win.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
LOL, Sonic was ing rand finals.
Purple
Hi guys!
Lol....
Same people still talking smack in here about characters?
Same people still talking smack in here about characters?
deepseadiva
Bodybuilding Magical Girl
I feel the Tactical split organized this thread incorrectly.
A tier list isn't exactly data, is it? It's not concrete in the least; more of an interpretation of gameplay, no?
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Sonic did it once, oli did it twice in a row. Difference is there's consistancy in the second scenario.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
two times doesnt really fit my definition of consistency...
i mean keep in mind, that same oli that just beat m2k is the same oli that lost to ike at columbus. which is supposed to be a free win matchup.
I heard sheik, wolf and luigi do really good against him too.
how you gonna be a top tier with these random lower mid tier characters that beat and go even with you. Pikachu doesnt really have those random CP matchup when you get past C tier
i mean keep in mind, that same oli that just beat m2k is the same oli that lost to ike at columbus. which is supposed to be a free win matchup.
I heard sheik, wolf and luigi do really good against him too.
how you gonna be a top tier with these random lower mid tier characters that beat and go even with you. Pikachu doesnt really have those random CP matchup when you get past C tier
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
It was a free win like 2 years ago.
Both sides pretty much consider it a 6-4 Olimar's favor at this point in time (though some people think it's even closer). Almost nobody actually considers it 8-2 or whatever nonsense was being tossed around previously.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Keep in mind, that same olimar practiced ridiculously hard and studied brood's vids like a religion for the weeks just before mlg to get to the level he is now
DARKDRAGONHIEI
Smash Cadet
no real complaints tier list looks fair with comparing skills. like the fact that they added shiek/Zelda. YAY i finally have a a place in the tier. still don't know why peoepl want a "Gannon" tier it makes him look so bad that he can't even be in the regular low tier like MK is too cheap to be on regular high tiers. >_< they nerfed gannon he had so much power and speed in the game >_<
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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Lee got killed twice with Lucario making some pretty big mistakes.
The match-up is bad for Pikachu is Lucario lives to 140% or higher on average, which he can reasonably do against Pikachu.
Lee however died on his second stock by airdodging and floating too close to a thunder, died at 111% and air dodged into ESAM's Fsmash. He made some pretty key mistakes, which caused him to lose, as Lucario.
Still it's not that bad for Pikachu, I could reasonably see Pikachu of even skill to win that match-up.
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None of the really good Olimar players have a lot of experience against Sheik players. That and I'm pretty sure Sheik players in general still don't know how to play the matchup correctly. :X That and no one plays sheik rofl. Most of the tournament encounters in the Sheik-Olimar matchup between evenly skilled players ends in Olimar winning, so I suppose one could make a case that he wins the matchup... ?
Wolf goes fairly even. No one really contests that.
Luigi is dumb. Mistakes are about as costly against Luigi as they are against ICs. That said, if you don't make any mistakes, imo it's a fairly even matchup :X- in other words, at the highest level of play right now. Most say Luigi wins by a small margin, I think.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
^What this man said. It's pretty tough for Sheik 
And what Red Ryu said, it was almost as if he didn't know how to play around thunder, and he didn't do a good job of keeping momentum onstage.
And what Red Ryu said, it was almost as if he didn't know how to play around thunder, and he didn't do a good job of keeping momentum onstage.
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
You misunderstand; by the past, I mean anything older than 6 months. Btw, I wasn't advocating for him to rise into Top Tier (I still think he has more to prove before that even becomes an option); I was simply stating the problems with those arguments.
DDDs have been taking top-level money at big tournaments for much longer than Olimar or Pikachu. Therefore, he should be above them.
Oh wait
My point is that recent placings are what should be used to create a tier list of the current metagame, regardless of how a character performed before that period. I don't believe that Olimar has placed highly enough for a long enough time to warrant a rise into top tier yet, however.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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Jab cancel 3 times into an UpB, nair through pikmen...the match-up is really dumb. D=
Yesh I said something smart. =D^What this man said. It's pretty tough for Sheik
And what Red Ryu said, it was almost as if he didn't know how to play around thunder, and he didn't do a good job of keeping momentum onstage.
Yeah I'm kinda surprised at what happened in that game.
Dabuz
Fraud at Smash
as both at olimar main and using shiek as my primary secondary, i can confidently say the oli-shiek MU is 55-45, its just all shieks **** and don't understand the tools they have against olimar, also, give olimar a few more months of consistency with more than one or two olimars taking top placements before we start debating top tier
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Pikachu's placings aren't recent? Sorry?
Uh, so you are disagreeing with my point and then agreeing with it? I don't understand.
Nickelbacker
Smash Cadet
King Dedede says DK is banned from top tier
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My point still stands. Brawl's whole history goes into effect when you consider the meta game.
there's things that happened a year+ ago that we still reference often.
Like reflex mashing out of chain grabs ridiculously fast in 08.
Everything the brawl community has done has lead up to where we are now.
you can't just ignore it and say "you're too old sorry you don't matter".
Luigi vs Olimar IMO is 60-40 Luigi. If we get a jab at I believe...40...percent we can kill with an up b. We can also jab into a down smash as well for setups at lower percents.
The issue is approaching due to Olimar's grab.
Olimar is one of the top of high tier in some placement along with Snake, Wario, Falco, and diddy. I believe that olimar has the best ground options of any characters.
The issue is approaching due to Olimar's grab.
Olimar is one of the top of high tier in some placement along with Snake, Wario, Falco, and diddy. I believe that olimar has the best ground options of any characters.
Sheik-Olimar is 6-4 Olimar at least. Probably as bad as 65-35. I can give you a detailed post on the matchup if you want.
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
The disagreement came in on the amount of length necessary; it sounded like you wanted to go back too far. Everything else I've agreed with.
So Olimar was 18 on the initial tier list. Does that mean he shouldn't be at 8 now? No, it means that his meta game progressed and he is now judged off of that as opposed to when he was less developed. His placings were crap then, but they're better now, and that's why he's moved up 10 spots. History does not determine the current tier list - it is judged based off of how characters are performing in today's meta game.
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Yes he's placed 8th now because how high he was in the beginning.
what if we all thought he sucked and nobody used him at all when brawl first came out and he was like, ganon tier bad? then all the stuff he's been doing recently probably wouldn't be able to move him all the way up to 8th.
probably like 10~something at best.
where he had him placed initially plays a huge part in how he is today.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Kinda like how in V1 R.O.B. was top 6 and Diddy was barely high tier?
V1 is way to out of date to compare with
V1 is way to out of date to compare with
Nitrix
Smash Ace
Tier Lists are supposed to show how characters compare to eachother. It doesn't incorporate any sense of time. At the core, Tier lists aren't based on the current metagame at all, just matchups.
Just because Olimar is doing well now doesn't mean that his crappy results never existed. Olimar is doing better now because they adapted and changed. Now it is time for people to adapt to Olimar and possibly send him back down. Just because Olimar went up on the tier list doesn't mean that he belongs there. He needs to show that he can stay.
Just because Olimar is doing well now doesn't mean that his crappy results never existed. Olimar is doing better now because they adapted and changed. Now it is time for people to adapt to Olimar and possibly send him back down. Just because Olimar went up on the tier list doesn't mean that he belongs there. He needs to show that he can stay.
^^^^ The reason why Olimar has improved is due to the people playing him. If it was all matchups and people played matchups perfectly, MK would be beyond the best character in the game as he doesn't have a bad matchup.
Olimar's learned the MK matchup and the other main matchups. When people learn what to do, their correct tier list placement shows.
Olimar's learned the MK matchup and the other main matchups. When people learn what to do, their correct tier list placement shows.
Dabuz
Fraud at Smash
don't bother, wrong thread for this, along with the fact that i don't feel like ripping apart a giant wall of text to discuss about a character that has no one good using her anymore
YagamiLight
Smash Champion
to be honest, nobody new is going to pick up sheik at this point
for the amount of effort that you need to put into sheik (or sonic / link) there are so many other characters that are inherently better and benefit from being nimble and good at fast, technical execution.
sheik requires too much effort, has too little reward
How do people know how bad sheik is if no one wants to commit to tech skill? How else did Sonic go up the tier list. Saying that a character is hard to use doesn't make them bad.
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