Official BBR Tier List v5

[Savon]

Snakes lack of mobility has been getting exploited more and more recently, and I think it is going to be one of the reasons he drops. DDD is also going to continue to drop because of his lack of mobility compared to some other higher tiered characters.
Peach is going to drop as well I think because of mobility issues.

Fox, Pikachu, Wolf, and Sonic have enough mobility to move up in the tier list. Not by a lot maybe, but it helps them significantly.

 

[Spelt]

Mobility aside, Pikachu hasn't really done enough to deserve a rise.

 

[Ishiey]

I think the ICs are also going to take a hit from the rise in importance of mobility. Their overall mediocre mobility and weak traction, along with the opponent always having a bad stage to CP the ICs to, are not exactly A-tier qualities... The only saving grace, similar to DeDeDe, is how they both have several characters that they (as of now) hard counter.

Also, I'd throw Yoshi into the group of characters that have the potential to rise because of mobility. There's a video of Zudenka (European Yoshi) that was posted a while ago in the best videos thread, Yoshi can't change his direction in the air so well without a b-reversal or DJ but aside from that he's all over the place X_x

 

[DMG]

Snakes lack of mobility has been getting exploited more and more recently, and I think it is going to be one of the reasons he drops. DDD is also going to continue to drop because of his lack of mobility compared to some other higher tiered characters.

Fox, Pikachu, Wolf, and Sonic have enough mobility to move up in the tier list. Not by a lot maybe, but it helps them significantly.

Depends. Fox in particular people tend to overrate his air mobility, when it's really his ground mobility that allows anything good to happen for him. His ground mobility is what allows grab release to Usmash or airdodge reads to Usmash, it's what lets him close the gap or further it when the situations calls for it, etc. He's NOT mobile in the air, he's flexible. There's a difference and I don't think people either differentiate between the two or they poorly explain to people that his tools let him be flexible instead of lead him to be mobile.

He jumps or DJ's in the air, he's NOT moving a huge distance left or right in a fast manner. He has tools that let him vary his vertical positioning really effectively, but not his horizontal positioning. I don't think people realize that yet whenever they see TKD going up into the air from a platform and doing his "positioning dance" as I like to call it. What he's doing is not extremely mobile, but it IS flexible.

With that said, is having flexibility in that area really that strong? I mean, flexibility in other areas tends to be a great thing: having a bunch of different reliable kill options from air or ground, having a flexible recovery, etc. Those are things most characters covet to have. But is having a lot of control vertically something valuable? Almost every other tool Fox has I like more than that: being fast enough to reliably punish people with Usmash, Utilt combos, swift attacks in general, lasers, etc. I don't see why people focus on his vertical flexibility like that is his saving grace.

 

[Poltergust]

Yoshi can't change his direction in the air so well without a b-reversal

Neither can about 90% of the other characters in the game, you know.

 

[Spelt]

Actually, 90% of the other characters can't even change direction in the air with a DJ

 

[Poltergust]

Uh... I just said that...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

A lot of characters have fast-acting B-Reverse options, though, like Donkey Kong.

 

[Ishiey]

Neither can about 90% of the other characters in the game, you know.

I can't find the statistics now, but I could've sworn I ran into something with numbers showing just how bad Yoshi was at this compared to the rest of the cast... ;_____;

Regardless, I was just pointing it out because Yoshi doesn't have many landing options so it makes it easier to punish his landings imo, even if he does have a very good airgrab/b-reversal. He has to commit in the air, in a sense... although I suppose most characters have to, so that's not the best point to make >_>

@ DMG: So wait. Being able to control vertical movement very effectively (fast/high jump, quick fast fall, an aerial stall move) is flexibility, but being able to control horizontal movement very effectively (quick horizontal air speed, good b-reversal to change direction) is mobility?... I'm just a bit confused here, can you clarify the difference between mobility and flexibility? X_x

 

[Poltergust]

I can't find the statistics now, but I could've sworn I ran into something with numbers showing just how bad Yoshi was at this compared to the rest of the cast... ;_____;

I don't follow you... bad at what exactly?

 

[Ishiey]

At changing direction in the air, for example retreating an aerial. Sorry for being unclear :x

 

[DMG]

@ DMG: So wait. Being able to control vertical movement very effectively (fast/high jump, quick fast fall, an aerial stall move) is flexibility, but being able to control horizontal movement very effectively (quick horizontal air speed, good b-reversal to change direction) is mobility?... I'm just a bit confused here, can you clarify the difference between mobility and flexibility? X_x

Mobile = you can circle camp

Flexible = you are more limited in the space you can cover, but have more options inside that space

 

[Poltergust]

Well, I remember Yoshi being just average there (.07 or something. For comparison's sake, I remember Wario being .30, Squirtle being .11, and Peach being .10).

Of course, in most cases being average in any category is bad (average air-dodge = terrible air-dodge, average spot-dodge = terrible spot-dodge, etc.).

Still, Yoshi is able to change his momentum quickly if he uses his DJ. That's why Dragonic Egg Lay is so effective and such. You can jump in one direction, DJ in the other, then throw out an Egg Lay to cancel the DJ with your reversed momentum. Throw B-reversals into the mix and Yoshi really doesn't have many problems navigating the air (unless he air-dodges, because that's probably where his aerial acceleration problems mostly come into play).

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yoshi is bad-***.

**** shielding.

 

[Poltergust]

Spot-dodge > shield.

True fax.

 

[Deleted member]

Your chaingrab leads into an -infinite- on Wario. Do you have the advantage in that matchup?

There's no way F-Smash KOs until at least 100%.

Your projectile and pivot grab are made less effective by Water Gun, which greatly pushes an opponent that isn't moving in a direction.

Yoshi can get juggled pretty well due to his weight and recovery options against Squirtle. Your tilts are not as useful as Squirtle's.

...And probably more.

I know this is probably over...
But i made typh quit pokemon trainer.
;P

Yoshi vs squirtle is easily 65:35 at a minimum. Vs wario,pretty much the only place u can actually do the infinate is on FD, since wario can just make sure he doesnt get grabbed in the open on BF, and on SV the platform saves him.

I disagree that yoshi gets juggled well. He does get juggled, but he has it far easier than most characters because he can double jump away a lot of times, and his pivots and air speed make him hard to punish on landing.
If you ftilt yoshi and he pivot grabs, you lose a stock. If you jab yoshi and he pivot grabs you lose a stock.

We also

Hell if you double jump and try to land pretty much ever, you get grabbed and lose a stock.
Squirtle is obviously very good, but id argue this matchup is almost as bad at marth for him.

On battlefield i think squirtle goes even, but on PS1, FD, and Smashville, yoshi has a significant advantage.

sorry for that XD

Why dont people talk about zero suits mobility much, she seems like she gets wherever she wants very fast, and her vertical acceleration is pretty tight.
I like mobility its fun stuff
Seems like all i hear about zero suit is that shes gimmicky, but her fundementals seem pretty solid.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Zero Suit has ridiculous vertical mobility and pretty average horizontal mobility, but her landing game is balls, like worse than Snake's, so you don't really find yourself attempting to take advantage of her vertical mobility much. Side-b just doesn't protect her and nair is... nair.

It's just funny that she's so good at juggling and so bad against it. She has no dair, so the only things she can really do to protect against good juggle games is like... air dodge, or attempt to down-b out somehow.

B-reversed paralyzers help a bit, I guess?

On the ground her mobility is boss but she sucks on the ground so who cares?

I'd imagine that's why you don't hear people talk about it much. She's great at chasing people down though.

Fun: footstool boost jump twice down+b is the highest jump height of any character with only two jumps. I'm pretty sure it's the highest even without the footstool.

 

[Ishiey]

Mobile = you can circle camp

Flexible = you are more limited in the space you can cover, but have more options inside that space

Ah, that helps... so basically, mobility is relevant in terms of how well a character can run away?

Well, I remember Yoshi being just average there (.07 or something. For comparison's sake, I remember Wario being .30, Squirtle being .11, and Peach being .10).

Of course, in most cases being average in any category is bad (average air-dodge = terrible air-dodge, average spot-dodge = terrible spot-dodge, etc.).

Still, Yoshi is able to change his momentum quickly if he uses his DJ. That's why Dragonic Egg Lay is so effective and such. You can jump in one direction, DJ in the other, then throw out an Egg Lay to cancel the DJ with your reversed momentum. Throw B-reversals into the mix and Yoshi really doesn't have many problems navigating the air (unless he air-dodges, because that's probably where his aerial acceleration problems mostly come into play).

I think we'll just go with me being mistaken on this one Agreed on the "average" bit though. And yeah, the main issue I was getting at was airdodging... :/ Correct me if I'm wrong, but Yoshi wants to get his DJ back asap when recovering, right? Leading to ADing into the ground when recovering for many situations, which gets the DJ back but also more or less forces Yoshi to take significant damage over time against a good opponent.

 

[Poltergust]

Actually, Sockz, I'm pretty sure Squirtle doesn't go high enough to land on a platform on Battlefield when getting grab-released.

Or were you referring to something else?

EDIT: True, Ishieymoro, but if I had the choice of air-dodging into the stage and getting hit or getting gimped because I didn't air-dodge, I'll take the extra damage, thank you.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I know this is probably over...
But i made typh quit pokemon trainer.
;P

On battlefield i think squirtle goes even, but on PS1, FD, and Smashville, yoshi has a significant advantage.

To each his own, I suppose.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually, Sockz, I'm pretty sure Squirtle doesn't go high enough to land on a platform on Battlefield when getting grab-released.

Or were you referring to something else?

EDIT: True, Ishieymoro, but if I had the choice of air-dodging into the stage and getting hit or getting gimped because I didn't air-dodge, I'll take the extra damage, thank you.

i was referring to how squirtle can avoid the grab platform camping. The CG still works.

 

[Spelt]

squirtle can avoid the grab by being squirtle.

 

[Deleted member]

He falls too fast to do it like wario and doesnt attack exactly like wario (wario attacks from above, while squirtles good moves hit horizontally). Thats the main difference between getting the grab on them. Like i said, if wario strikes FD then yoshi cant infinate, whereas yoshi has a super easy guaranteed 0-death on squirtle on every neutral and squirtle has to put himself in grab zone. Wario kills yoshi much more reliably than squirtle, and can actually time yoshi out without making himself worse.

Ivy and zard both barely lose in my experiences though i have never played reflex. I think both have a lot of trouble killing a yoshi if he plays gay though. Squirtle you kinda have to play normally and then just make reads happen because he punishes eggs really nicely.

*steers train back on course*

 

[phi1ny3]

I think the ICs are also going to take a hit from the rise in importance of mobility. Their overall mediocre mobility and weak traction, along with the opponent always having a bad stage to CP the ICs to, are not exactly A-tier qualities... The only saving grace, similar to DeDeDe, is how they both have several characters that they (as of now) hard counter.

Also, I'd throw Yoshi into the group of characters that have the potential to rise because of mobility. There's a video of Zudenka (European Yoshi) that was posted a while ago in the best videos thread, Yoshi can't change his direction in the air so well without a b-reversal or DJ but aside from that he's all over the place X_x

Unbeknownst to most this sliding mechanic is a blessing in disguise, that has yet to be abused, hehe...

 

[Ishiey]

^ Uh you'll have to explain this to me lol. Only "blessing" I can think of is the shieldpush preventing characters from pressuring your shield as much as they would otherwise :x

 

[Xx swift xX]

I feel like everyone here should just take a quick glance at z'zgashi's thread about character success if they haven't already. Helps you get a good grasp of where each character stands in terms of player depth (as in having multiple successful players, not having a deep metagame). It should assist in ending any dispute over whether or not "X character hasn't been consistently performing at majors."

edit: go here - http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=288046

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I just want to say that I can reliably ground release against Yoshi's running grab until about 50% by breaking out earlier than most. It's not quite 0-to-death.

 

[Pikabunz]

I feel like everyone here should just take a quick glance at z'zgashi's thread about character success if they haven't already. Helps you get a good grasp of where each character stands in terms of player depth (as in having multiple successful players, not having a deep metagame). It should assist in ending any dispute over whether or not "X character hasn't been consistently performing at majors."

edit: go here - http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=288046

Notice how all the top and high tier characters are grouped together except Pika who is waaaay below them. lol

 

[DMG]

I just want to say that I can reliably ground release against Yoshi's running grab until about 50% by breaking out earlier than most. It's not quite 0-to-death.

Yeeeeeeeee

 

[Deleted member]

I just want to say that I can reliably ground release against Yoshi's running grab until about 50% by breaking out earlier than most. It's not quite 0-to-death.

haha interesting.
probably makes the matchup significantly more even, i dont think i have played anyone that ground breaks reliably except maybe TKD but i havent played him in forever

 

[Nestec]

Notice how all the top and high tier characters are grouped together except Pika who is waaaay below them. lol

I also notice that it hasn't been updated since November... :/

:green:

 

[Psychoace]

Falcon for flexible tier. :D

 

[T0MMY]

DMG is prime example of why I don't contribute much to SWF anymore. I know it's (mostly) joking, but that kind of posting discourages conversation.

BTW, thanks for saying I'm an exceptional player (the worse the character is, the better player has to be). Though I know a large portion of any of my successes is due to my character's options and strengths as well (I know bad characters, I mained Pichu in Melee).

 

[-LzR-]

Rob isn't actually bad, he is like in the dead middle =/
He is not either bad or good. This ain't Melee where you got da seven viables and others are utter crap.

 

[Poltergust]

I just want to say that I can reliably ground release against Yoshi's running grab until about 50% by breaking out earlier than most. It's not quite 0-to-death.

Not that you'd die from an f-air spike before that percentage anyways (second weakest spike in the game! YAY.), so it's basically an irrelevant point.

haha interesting.
probably makes the matchup significantly more even, i dont think i have played anyone that ground breaks reliably except maybe TKD but i havent played him in forever

What the... you're supposed to know these things already, Sockz. D:

 

[Nestec]

Not that you'd die from an f-air spike before that percentage anyways (second weakest spike in the game! YAY.),

Who has the number one weakest spike?

Zelda?

:green:

 

[-LzR-]

I think it's Fox.

 

[Poltergust]

Mario. >.>

lol at Zelda having the weakest spike.

 

[-LzR-]

I never knew Yoshi had a weak spike.
Zelda only has a weak spike if she doesn't sweetspot and that doesn't count, when it hits correctly, it's damn strong.

And yeah. Mario spikes Ganon at like 180% anyways D:

 

[NAKAT]

Yoshi's spike is weak?