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Official BBR Tier List v5

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All moves have the same hitstun constant, except some moves that are exceptions (Pikachu's Jab, ZSS' jab, Dark Dive, some others). Jabs aren't ranked by hitstun variables (because there aren't any) but by the length of the jab animation and IASA frames and other things that make cancelling them more viable. Falco's jab is short, fast, and interruptible, but it has the same hitstun as any other move with its KB.

TL;DR hitstun doesn't really change with anything except base KB and KBG. Most jabs have the same hitstun.
 
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No they don't. -_-

Hitstun is an exponential (can someone please verify this) CONSTANT. The only VARIABLES are KB, KBG, and damage.

Hitstun increases as KB increases. KB increases as a result of the relationship between KBG and damage taken. Moves that have no KBG have (virtually, the difference is to the decimal place of a second depending on base KB) the same hitstun across the board, period.
 
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I guess it's just sheildstun then :p
Aura increases base knockback or KBG, I can't remember, but it doesn't matter because both increase hitstun indirectly. Aura does not directly increase hitstun. Increased hitstun usually means increased shieldstun, but not always.
 

Psychoace

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Zelda's down smash is much, much faster. It also hits on both of her sides quite quickly, Falcon however first hits in front of him, then behind him, making if far more predictable.
Ok I went and looked at the frame data and her's is faster, but talking in terms of predictability I don't think that really matters if you are using it as a punish.


Third best jab? How so? Ike, Snake, Luigi, Peach, Falco and Pit have much better jabs imo. Then there are characters such as Sheik and Link whose jab may also be on par with Falcon's jab.
This has been answered.


I have to admit that with combos, I thought a bit too much of my main Peach, who can legimately combo Falcon without him being to escape and continue her pressure afterwards. Other characters may or may not be able to do the same, but almost every character has at least decent strings on him.
floaty characters do have strings on him, but those characters: Lucario, peach, metaknight, jigglypuff, etc. can do that to pretty much everyone.


I have a hard time believing Snake doesn't trash him (maybe compared to his own match-ups...?), and I'm also quite sceptical to Lucario not beating him up. TL I'm not sure about, but I think you can agree with me it is not a beautiful match-up. R.O.B... dunno.
I agree lucario does some pretty hardcore stuff to him, but we also kill him fairly quickly. Yeah I'm not to sure about TL but projectiles and combos to **** falcon pretty bad. R.O.B. is easy prey close range, and it's not that difficult to get inside him.
 
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Projectiles IMO don't really hurt any one character more than another, except in cases where the character in question is very slow. The answers most characters have for fighting projectiles are universal.

Most approaches in Brawl are mix-ups anyway. Very few characters have approach options so profound that they can simple barrel or even PS/shield through a projectile wall and attack with X and win every time. It's just a fact that at long range, projectile characters have the advantage in that you are approaching them, or reacting to them, even if said projectile game isn't very good. This goes for everyone from Samus to Peach to Toon Link to Falco.

With that said, I'm not convinced Falcon is terribly hurt by projectile games. If anything he's better-equipped to handle it than most characters given his fast ground speed and good air speed, and above average aerials. It isn't like he has the Ganon/Zelda problem where he moves so slowly that he can't cover any ground between defensive maneuvers. =/

In addition, I believe that time will show that we have dramatically underrated Captain Falcon. His biggest problems are fall speed/weight class-related problems like chains and combos, and a "bad approach game" which I addressed previously. He also sometimes has problems scoring kills because his kill moves are all strong punish moves and aren't super-reliable. His strong jab and good mix-up game combined with his better-than-average recovery and "burst of speed" game (in which he can quickly change course and do something unexpected much like ZSS, Sonic, Fox, and Wario) are all very good qualities. We just need a very talented player to step out of low tier games and show us how wrong we are. No, I'm not arguing for a rise for Falcon.
 

-Mars-

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What is Falcons dash>shield speed? Characters that have good ones rarely have trouble with being camped.
 

Nestec

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Can someone quickly tell me what KBG means?

I don't think that really matters if your using it as a punish
Ok, so I know this is the internet and all, and you're not being graded or arrested for errors, but...

CAN PEOPLE PLEEEASE STOP USING "YOUR" IN PLACE OF "YOU'RE". K. THNX. GUDBAI.

:green:
 
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Now compare those traits to samus, jiggs, yoshi, and ganon. Each have different aspects. Which set of traits should really be higher than the other?
 

Spelt

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Ok, so I know this is the internet and all, and you're not being graded or arrested for errors, but...

CAN PEOPLE PLEEEASE STOP USING "YOUR" IN PLACE OF "YOU'RE". K. THNX. GUDBAI.
Thank you for that severe over reaction to a typo.
you're life is now complete.
 

Nestec

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Thank you for that severe over reaction to a typo.
you're life is now complete.
THANK YOU. At least someone here knows how to type. Geez.

Oh...wait--

EDIT:
And that's not a typo. A typo is "a mistake in printed matter resulting from mechanical failures of some kind", from thefreedictionary.com.
When people use "your" instead of "you're", they're intentionally ignoring grammar rules.

:green:
 

Conviction

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Oh wow get over it. Are you going to die? Are you hurt? Are you bleeding because of it? If he gets point across stop whining about it. No productive has come out of you attacking his grammatical skills which are probably better than what you blowing up to be. Sorry everyone isn't perfect for you. Lol

Your over-doing thing. <- Cry about that.
 

Spelt

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I mix up you're and your/their and there ALL the time just because i'm not putting that much effort to bring the people of the internet the most beautiful and intellectual pieces of literature ever.
Doesn't mean i don't know the difference between the two words.

and you're not getting e-points because someone made a little mistake, so knock it off.

if i wasn't lazy i'd quote/link to that post susa made awhile ago.


also, to stay on-topic, marth is better than falco.
discuss.
 

Nestec

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Oh wow get over it. Are you going to die? Are you hurt? Are you bleeding because of it?
All of this was utterly unnecessary.

If he gets point across stop whining about it. No productive has come out of you attacking his grammatical skills which are probably better than what you blowing up to be.
Indeed, they probably are, but if he doesn't show it, I cannot respect him as an intelligent person if he doesn't type intelligently. In social threads, it's okay, but when posting to develop or enforce an argument, typing unintelligently impacts one's voice quite considerably.

Spelt said:
I mix up you're and your/their and there ALL the time just because i'm not putting that much effort to bring the people of the internet the most beautiful and intellectual pieces of literature ever.
Doesn't mean i don't know the difference between the two words.
I don't care whether or not you truly know the difference.

What matters is how you sound to other people. If you talk like an idiot, you can never hope to have your arguments/opinions considered fully. Unless, like I said, you're not trying to debate/discuss/argue/whatever.

and you're not getting e-points because someone made a little mistake, so knock it off.
uhh...yea bro, i have no clue wut you be talkin about here.

also, to stay on-topic, marth is better than falco.
discuss.
Falco is better than Marth.

:green:
 

ShadowLink84

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I mix up you're and your/their and there ALL the time just because i'm not putting that much effort.
I fixed it.

Doesn't mean i don't know the difference between the two words.
People who do, tend not to make such an error.
and you're not getting e-points because someone made a little mistake, so knock it off.
He gets cookies.
if i wasn't lazy i'd quote/link to that post susa made awhile ago.
DO IT, I DARE YOU!

also, to stay on-topic, marth is better than falco.
discuss.
Metaknight beats them both.

Oh wow get over it. Are you going to die? Are you hurt? Are you bleeding because of it? If he gets point across stop whining about it. No productive has come out of you attacking his grammatical skills which are probably better than what you blowing up to be. Sorry everyone isn't perfect for you. Lol
OH GOD, MAKE IT STOP! THE PAIN, THE ANGUISH, THE HORROR!

I bite my thumb at you sir!
Your over-doing thing. <- Cry about that.
>=(
http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=4606535
 

Spelt

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What matters is how you sound to other people. If you talk like an idiot, you can never hope to have your arguments/opinions considered fully. Unless, like I said, you're not trying to debate/discuss/argue/whatever.
lol "talk like an idiot". you have ridiculously high standards of an idiot. stephen king makes typos. he's obviously an idiot. j.k. rowling makes typos, she's an idiot. albert einstein makes typos. idiot? obviously. NASA's website probably has a typo THIS INSTANT if you went and looked at their website for awhile. BUNCH OF IDIOTS.

One typo isn't going to make me sound like i live in a small cottage in the rain forest and wear special tin foil hats to stop from government waves getting into my head.
most people don't care whether or not someone makes a typo. Because it doesn't distract anyone (but you) from the original point they're making.



oh and also, everyone, including you, makes mistakes. get over it.



tl;dr
stop talking. you have no idea what your saying.


People who do, tend not to make sch an error.
not sure if this was intention or not, but either way it's hilarious.
 

ShadowLink84

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LOL STUFF
Typographical errors are the result of making spelling errors.
For example, misspelling the word chocolate as chocolatte. That is a typographical error because of the improper spelling of the word chocolate.

Grammatical errors are errors within the structure of a sentence, or in this case, the improper usage of a word.
For example, the words, there, their and they're, all of which have different usage within the English language.

You have thus been corrected sir.


Oh, and also, everyone, including you, makes mistakes. Get over it.


tl;dr
Stop talking,you have no idea what you're saying.
http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=4606552


As for the last question, it isn't that anything was broken. What happened was HTML was disabled, hence why you see the embedding.

Edit: DAMN YOU LETTER U KEY! YOU THWART ME ONCE AGAIN!
 

Spelt

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nice random in that quote you "corrected".


I didn't ask what the problem was, I asked when it would be fixed, if ever.
 

Psychoace

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What the **** happened while I was gone?

All this over little old me? You guys flatter me.

Anyway I messed up and didn't double check my post, I fixed it get over it..

As for Falcon's dash > shield I don't believe we have frame data for it, but it is one of our more common approaches used. I know his isn't the best, but it is definitely useful. Falcon rarely has trouble when it comes to being camped. I can run up to a Falco camping with lasers shield them and if I'm close enough I'll grab him. If I'm not I will either get behind him or set up with something else. I think if we can handle/get around Falco's lasers then most other projectiles aren't as troublesome. Dash > shield is probably our primary set up for grabs as well. I will see if we can get some of that data up in the near future.
 

Nestec

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My apologies; I had a little fit. <3

But anyways, on this Captain Falcon business...

He definitely needs to be below Samus and Link, in my opinion. As I see it, the bottom 10 goes:

-PT
-Lucas
-Bowser
-Mario
-Samus
-Link
-Falcon/Zelda
-Falcon/Zelda
-Jigglypuff
-Ganon

I feel that Zelda and Falcon are just about interchangeable...

:green:
 

-LzR-

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Everyone blindly puts Jiggs as 2nd worst and says "she lacks representation". Why don't you put Ganon over Puff then when he has better results? And Puff is waaaayy better than Zelda. Zelda is such a limited character with a crappy jab, crappy aerials and a horrible recovery, she is tall, she is light and she is floaty.
Now how could she be better than Puff at all?
 

Poltergust

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Everyone blindly puts Jiggs as 2nd worst and says "she lacks representation". Why don't you put Ganon over Puff then when he has better results? And Puff is waaaayy better than Zelda. Zelda is such a limited character with a crappy jab, crappy aerials and a horrible recovery, she is tall, she is light and she is floaty.
Now how could she be better than Puff at all?
You know Jigglypuff shares these traits too, right? Heck, they're even worse in Jigglypuff's case. At least Zelda has some form of a ground game. The only reason Jigglypuff should be on the ground is to grab.

:069:
 
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