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NU to OU: The Next Chapter

Terywj [태리]

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How could Flareon ever be good? -_- Flareon needs like...a total revamp.
Here's Flareon's problem. Pathetic physical movepool with a base 130 Attack stat. Needs more bulk, and has terrible speed.

So to work with the numbers:

80 / 130 / 75 / 60 / 100 / 75

I'm aware that this trends away from standard base stat distribution of Eevee evolutions, but I kept the BST to 520. Flare Blitz would be needed, as well as better physical movepool additions such as Extremespeed.

Also, let's try to work with one Pokemon at a time.
 

mood4food77

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you can't actually do that to an eeveelution

each eeveelution has these base stats

1 base 130 stat
1 base 110 stat
1 base 95 stat
2 base 65 stats
1 base 60 stat

so here's how i'm changing flareon

95/130/65/60/65/110
movepool additions: flare blitz, earthquake, crunch, extreme speed

flareon's physical movepool sucks, the only usable physical moves he has are superpower (which lowers his attack after 1 use), quick attack (so he gets a chance to go first, but being normal and only 40 BP isn't going to hit anything hard no matter how high of an attack a poke has), return (again has normal typing problems), fire fang (low BP that can't be saved by stab), bite (low BP move again), and iron tail (steel typing, low accuracy, and not his strongest move).

so giving him these moves and this stat spread keeps the whole eeveelution rule in tact as it follows both the base stat rule and the shallow movepool rule
 

Terywj [태리]

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you can't actually do that to an eeveelution

each eeveelution has these base stats

1 base 130 stat
1 base 110 stat
1 base 95 stat
2 base 65 stats
1 base 60 stat
Didn't I just say in my previous post that I knew I was straying away from how Eevee evolution base stats go?

Read. -_-
 

CRASHiC

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just give flareon flare blitz, and usage will go up, haha
Just like how if we give Fearow Brave Bird?
Yeah no.

I'd really rather NOT deal with Flareon right now. I think there are far more important metagame adjustments to be made, and once we've made them, we can find a role for Flareon.

So, poison sucks. This is known. why does it suck? Because of motehr ****in steals, that's why.
How can we fix this? Create an enviroment where steel is no longer broken. Rampardose is the first step. I feel we also need to create some poision Pokemon that can readily deal with this.

Toxicroack
Dry Skin/Sniper
Stat change: 116 attack 115 speed, new BST 530
Movepool changes:
Perish Song
Sing
Slash
Shadow Claw
Night Slash

The Sniper ability comes from the Poision Dart Frog.
Sing and Perish Song come from its large vocal sack.
Slash, Shadow Claw and Night Slash are all rather obvious to me, and I don't know why gamefreak didn't give him these moves with his giant claw.
The base stat of 115 is a common speed stat among sweepers. Attack buffed so that Steels now have something dreaded to fear. A substitute set is much to fear, as once he has a Sword Dance, he's prepared to rip through your team, however, his STAB limits him. He must either abandon his STAB for type coverage and risk being walled out by something, or he will hope his team mate won't have a counter in store. Considering how Metagross and Skarmory are both hard counters, that's not too hard to get around.

Make Drapion Poison/Ground. I've never understood why he was Dark in the first place.
 

Terywj [태리]

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Drapion doesn't really look Poison / Ground anymore than he does Poison / Dark. He looks plain Poison-type to me. If anything he should be the same type as Skorupi - Poison / Bug.
 

UltiMario

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If you want to play an environment with no steels just play the current OU. Without Mence Heatran and a rare Scizor are like the only Steels, and buttloads more Grass types to destroy.
 

Wave⁂

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Sniper is too situational to use. It's like Ice Beam; you don't (usually) use it for freeze hax.
 

ss118

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Forewarn should act like "Disable" for whatever move it calls out. It would be interesting.

I had an interesting idea for Ditto: give it 255 base HP. Make the opponent have to think about what they switch in. XD
 

Wave⁂

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For Toxicroak, something like Quick Feet (something related to how high frogs can jump) or Poison Absorb could work. I don't think Poison Absorb is feasible for PO, though. Mold Breaker-type ability that lets Poison hit Steel?
 

CRASHiC

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Actually Wave, that might be doable. I know enough about coding to look at the typing within the code and change the coding. However, who uses Poison STAB? Not yet at least hahaha.
 

Terywj [태리]

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It wouldn't be classified as a Mold Breaker-esque ability, since Mold Breaker allows Pokemon to hit through abilities. This ability would allow it to ignore immunities, granting neutral damage. Hey, that would be a neat ability. Now Steel-types and Ghost-types will get hit by Toxicroak's STAB. :)
 

Terywj [태리]

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So is Scrappy able to be altered? If so, then I can finalize and log these changes for Toxicroak and we can move onto a different Pokemon. I have one in mind but I don't want to start pooling ideas for it before the current Pokemon is finished.
 

Sir Bedevere

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I agree with giving Altaria some boosts (Vital Spirit, the moves), but not the stats suggested. x_x Altaria should be a supporter/bulky sweeper, not a wall, and I don't like giving Pokemon pseudo-esque stats (especially when Altaria was UU to begin with). Something like:

100 / 80 / 105 / 70 / 110 / 85 (550 BST)

...would give her enough of bulk that she can do her job of whatever her team needs (status removal, passing subs, Wishpassing, etc), while also enough power and speed (and bulk) that she can sweep through a weakened team after a few boosts.
 

Sir Bedevere

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Yeah, all the moves CRASH suggested should be added, otherwise it'd probably be better to go with your spread; Altaria only needs to come in once and a while to set up Reflect/Light Screen/whatever, which is why the Cresselia-like stats are a bit overboard, IMO.
 

CRASHiC

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I still ask that we make Altaria faster than most (not all) sweepers in order to avoid the unforgiving Taunt. I'm fine with not giving her bulk, but I feel she does need the speed to compete with other pokemon who also do her job.

So now I'd like to take a moment to completely rework the nature of a Pokemon, as there is no way to make this Pokemon even slightly useful without doing so. First will come my changes, and then will come my reasoning.

Unaware/Clear Body
HP: 90
Attack: 100
Defense: 98
Special Attack: 104
Special Defense: 35
Speed: 108

Movepool additions:
Vacuum Wave
Stealth Rock
Grass Knot
Rock Slide
Aura Sphere
Ice Beam
Ice Shard

The basic idea here is to take many traditionally defensive features and turn them into an offensive force. Unaware is based on the idea of Sabelye being blind. Though the Anime series disagrees, living in the depths of the earth is known to make an animal blind. This when combined with his typing permits him to switch in on opposing offensive threats. If you have a pokemon who has several stat boost, Sabeyle is your answer. Using his great typing and moderate defensive stats, he'll be a problem to take down without consecutive hits from a power house.

So, what can Sabeyle offer your team?
If your team is weak to a Dragon Dance, Sword Dance, Calm Mind, or any other stat abuser, Sabeyle has ability to take them out. Faster than every OU Dragon Dancer and being able to abuse priority on many Sword Dance and Nasty Plot users, Sabeyle can effectivly threaten and counter these pokemon. Speed tieing with Infernape is a major advantage to this Pokemon.
Using its Clear Body ability, Sabeyle can become a sweeper in itself.
A wonderful addition to Stall, the combination of Will-o-wisp and Unaware can effectively cripple ANY physical attacker.

However. . . .
Without any resistances, and with a low special defense, Sabeyle is still weak to powerful special attackers. You can alleviate this problem by running a calm mind set or paring it with blissey on a stall team, but of course both run large risk.
 

Terywj [태리]

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I liked what you edited and added, but since some of your changes were aesthetic I thought I'd bring this up - Sableye looks more specially defensive than he would physically. Something about him and his PokeDex entries scream being able to tolerate special onslaughts. I'm not too sure why, but I get that vibe.

Also, that picture made me lololololol.
 

Metal~Mario

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Sableye looks more specially defensive than he would physically. Something about him and his PokeDex entries scream being able to tolerate special onslaughts. I'm not too sure why, but I get that vibe.

Also, that picture made me lololololol.
Sableye eats crystals. Crystals are usually associated with magic aka special.

Thank you for remedying Sableye, CRASHiC. Now if only I could use him in actual games...
 

Moozle

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I would think eating crystals would make you really hard on the inside, AKA defensive. Not that either one makes real sense lol. Plus Sabeleye would have to have some sort of defensive capabilities to be even a little effective at what he is supposed to be doing. Special attackers still are a big problem, even without Nasty Plot, but his defenses at least allowe him to take care of dragon/sword dancers.

CRASHiC has the coolest fixes to pokemon.
 

Terywj [태리]

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I'm going to bringing an idea to the table later tonight or tomorrow afternoon. If we can finalize edits on Sableye that'd be cool. I wouldn't want to overlap edit / change discussions.
 

ss118

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I still think Ditto should have 255 Base HP: sure it's a one trick pony, but when everything it does is better, then you have to think about exactly what you switch into it(or leave in it).
 

UltiMario

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You switch-in Zapdos/Suicune/Other things with some bulk and pressure. PP stall it.
 

CRASHiC

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Things requiring a vote currently left standing-

Altaria http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10763316&postcount=632
If you agree with the general idea of the buffs to this character, say yes, with whatever move pool additions you want to add or remove.

Altaria stats: Please highlight your choice
Defense to 104, special attack to 50, and speed to 116. 520 Flygon BST
132 HP, 120 Defense, 50 Special Attack (dropped) 122 Special Defense, and 116 Speed. Pseudo legendary
130 / 77 / 125 / 50 / 122 / 90 pseudo legendary
100 / 80 / 105 / 70 / 110 / 85 (550 BST)

Raichu: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10673574&postcount=616
Yes or no to these changes, and with yes, please post any additions you would like to make, or any things you feel should be removed.

Ninetails: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10677363&postcount=622
Yes or no, yes with comments, and please state which of the BSTs you would prefer, Moozle's Tery's or mine. Moozle's BST seen below
80 / 75 / 75 / 90 / 90 / 115

Sabeyle : yes or no, as seen above.
Also needing to decided on physically or specially defensive.
 

mood4food77

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I say no to both ninetails and raichu
with this NU to OU project, we're supposed to make NU pokes usable but we're not supposed to compleltely change them, with these changes, we're basically making both pokes completely new and straying away from the concept gf had in plan, we should focus on making simple changes that keep each poke the same but make thwm better, basically touching as little aesthetically as possible (typing and base stats)

I also say no to sableye, but instead,make it an evo for sableye, it's such a huge increase in stats that it seems more natural to make it an evo

and lastly, I say yes to changing altaria to the BST of 550, even though she's not NU


for another NU to OU change, I propose this:
meganium, she is the worst starter of all starters, she has a bulky stat spread but being pure grass doesn't help her and as a grass starter, she has to keep her ability and her BST of 525, I suggest giving her a secondary typing of poison, steel, or psychic
 

Wave⁂

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Altaria: Yes, 550
Raichu: No
Ninetales: Yes
Sableye: Yes


m4f, by your logic, none of the NUs will ever become OU. There simply are not enough niches in the OU metagame for them to be worth using. We HAVE TO make big changes. HAVE. TO.
 

CRASHiC

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Before I get started, I would want to note to Mood4Food that from the beginning, this project wasn't just boosting NU pokemon, but any Pokemon considered non-viable in OU. I'd also like to note that given the amount of time that goes into spriting for SmashCAP, we can not spend time creating new evolutions. All of our spriting efforts should be spent on SmashCap and SmashCAP alone.

Hey there guys, while I've been banned I've been working hard by analyising the metagame, and crafting new balances changes to make the game much more balanced, all in preperation for the start of August, which I feel should be the start of the next testing phase. I've decided that when making these changes, we should use a format similar to Smogon's CAP, as to help direct us in testing and evaluation. Here are the current programmed changes (any of these can be reversed).

Golduck
Trace/Cloud 9
HP to 90 Speed changed to 106, Defense up to 92, special defense to 85, new bst 550
Movepool- Power Gem, Thunder Bolt, Thunder Wave, Thunder, Grass Knot, Aura Sphere, Taunt

Purpose- A pokemon that can counter many differnt pokemon, but not every pokemon at once.
Cloud 9 allows him to stop SandStall and IceStall in its tracks, while Trace allows him to counter many different pokemon successfully such as Machamp, Heatran, GDose, Vaporeon, and many others. Giving its defensive stats a small bost allows it to switch in better amonst many different pokemon, while its increased speed further allows it successfully threaten many pokemon. The movepool additions also increase the number of pokemon he may threaten, and Thunder Wave allows him to be more than a pokemon that simply forces a switch.

Questions to be answered: Is having potent and relevant situational uses enough to bump a pokemon to OU viability?
Does trace do more harm than good to a Pokemon?
Will this Pokemon aid stall, or will it boost offense?

Delcatty by Ultimario
Scrappy/Normalize
HP 115, Attack down to 60, Defebse 110 Special Defense 100 Speed 85
Movepool- Will-o-wisp, Reflect, Light Screen, Mean Look.

Glalie
- Ice/Dark
Solid Rock/Ice Body
HP- 115
Attack- 134
Defense- 125
Speed- 60
Special Attack- 96
Special Defense- 30

Movepool additions- Rapid Spin Payback Nasty Plot Knock Off Punishment Gravity
Create a Pokemon that is not forced switches by ghost pokemon, and makes ghost pokemon think twice about switching in to block rapid spin.
Using his dark type, and new hefty attack stat, THE EVIL GLALIE proves to be as scary an attacking force as TTar, though lacking the superior typing and bulk of TTar. In relation to Weavile, who shares the same duel typing, Glalie can better handle steel users thanks to his bulk, Filter, Earthquake, and Gravity. However, lacking the speed and access to Pursuit, he can not preform the revenge killer role nearly aptly as Weavile. Using Nasty Plot, Glalie has the potential to run a potent Mixed set for a surprise factor, but to apty do this it must sacrifice its Rapid Spin functionality.

Questions to be answered-
Does this pokemon successfully prevent ghost pokemon from switching in during its rapin spins?
Does this pokemon discourage early set up of entry hazards, and encourage supporting pokemon that set them up instead?
Does this Pokemon's weakness to Stealth Rocks hurt its ability to push away entry hazards?

Marowak-
Arena Trap/Rock Head
Movepool changes- Agility, Head Smash

Purpose- To discourage the oversaturation of walls.
Marowak is known for one thing, hitting, and hitting hard. With the highest attack stat in the game from a non-boost, Marowak is a warning to all those who don't want to take a hit. By granting him Arena trap, he attempts to turn otherwise potent walls into setup Material. Blissey is now a desired target, setting up perfectly for an Aligiwak sweep. Though still weak to priority, especially after taking 2 Sesimec tosses to the skull (puns lol), Marowak can potentially wreck an unprepared stall team to pieces. A lot of stall has been added to the metagame as of late, and this is set to level the playing field.

Questions to be answered-
Does this pokemon successfully fullfill its purpose of taking care of pure walls?
Does this pokemon serve as a revenge killer despite its poor speed, lack or priority and bulk?
Does this pokemon aid to the destruction of stall teams?

Ninetails
Magic Guard
Hp80 Attack 75 Defense 80 Speed 115 Special Attack 90 Special Defense 100
Movepool changes- Destiny Bond, Wish, Reflect, Light Screen, Baton Pass, Healing Wish, Pursuit, Moon Light, Extreme Speed, Taunt, Trick, Thunder Wave, Superpower, Shadow Ball, Shadow Sneak, Transform, Miracle Eye, Future Sight, Skill Swap, Role Play, Psychic, Me First, U-turn, Taunt, Encore

Purpose- Create an unconvential fire pokemon, test its potency.
Ninetails was always a somewhat odd pokemon, held back by a conservative movepool and subpar stats. By aliveating these two, as well as granting it the abilty Magic Guard, we give Ninetails a role not currently filled by Fire pokemon. Though Normal type was originally planned, it was completely inconsequential, did nothing to assist in its goal, and all together hurt more than helped once you begin to crunch the numbers.

Questions to be answered-
Can a fire type aptly preform the roles of supporter, status spreder, and assist?
Does Heatran stop any potential of a Fire Pokemon annoyer?
How does an additional status Pokemon effect the metagame?

Altaria
Natural Cure, Vital Spirit
HP 100 Attack 70 Defense 104 Speed 116 Special Attack 50 Special Defense 110
Purpose- To test the supporting and defensive capabilities of the Dragon/Flying type.

Adding another cleric to the game seems very necissary amongst the many, many annoyers we have added thus far, from Parafusion Amphy, to the SmashCAP Lilli. However, in an enviroment where Sharpedo discourages the use of Dragons, and where Stealth Rocks are highly present, is it apt to say that this pokemon will still have large trouble fulfilling its roles, even with these buffs?

Questions to be answered-
How does Dragon/Flying stand as a defensive typing?
How does Sharpedo effect the potential of this dragon?
Does the addition of this cleric help to discourage the use of status moves?

Sabelye
Unaware/Clear Body
HP: 90 Attack: 100 Defense: 98 Special Attack: 104 Special Defense: 35 Speed: 108
Movepool additions:
Vacuum Wave Stealth Rock Grass Knot Rock Slide Aura Sphere Ice Beam Ice Shard

Purpose- To take defensive features and attempt to turn them into offensive ones, and to discrouage stat boosters.
With a great defensive typing and abilities, we are attempting to create a Sabelye that can cause be an offensive power house. Using its typing and defensive stat to switch in, and its ability to prevent unwanted damage, Sabelye has the potential to run a very offensive set. However, will the mediocre HP and gastly special defense be enough to discourage defensive sets?

Questions to be answered-
Does this Pokemon effectively fulfill its purpose as an offensive Pokemon using defensive attributes?
Is the Dark/Ghost typing overpowered when not held back by poor stats and ability?
In what way does this pokemon effect the viability of others?


On some of the more debated pokemon, I chose to select the fairest and most balanced of everything that was proposed, thus, Ninetails (or was it Altaria?) ends up with a mixed set of stats that combines the various elements and goals of several different stat spreads.

I in no way meant to imply that this is the final change list, this is only the list of what I have programed currently. I still wait to see Tery's proposal, and would like to see at least 3 more pokemon added to this list before the week is out.
 

ss118

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I like the idea of revamping pokemon: they are NU for a reason, usually because they are generally outclassed. Simple 1-movepool changes usually won't fix these pokemon: they need something to differentiate themselves.

Though really as long as I get my 255 base HP Ditto I don't give a huge ****. I just want ditto to not suck ***(and even with this it still might, but it will surely be better).
 

UltiMario

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I want to go with something more modest.

Base 200 HP Ditto, fair enough?

I would even support that.
 

Wave⁂

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Golduck: Dislike. Smogon already made Krilowatt.

Delcatty: Dislike. Underpowered.

Glalie: Awesome.

Marowak: Dislike. Overpowered; Agility / Swords Dance / QuakeSmash gets fantastic coverage, and basically forces people to use priority, like against the new Rampardos.
 

CRASHiC

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Smogon failed with Krilowatt. Besides, Krill is not a part of this metagame, and the advantages that Golduck would offer this metagame are large, providing an ample counter to many common overpowered threats.

Delcatty underpowered, not in the least. The only ghost that threatens its stalling prowess is Gengar, but to quote Ulti, you wouldn't stay in on him anyway.

Marowak doesn't force priority. Even after an agility, he's still slower than most and fragile. After an agility, Marowak still can not outrun the following pokemon:

Aerodactyl
Crobat
Swellow
Weavile
Dugtrio
Alakazam
Sceptile
Starmie
Raikou
Floatzel
Ambipom
Azelf
Gengar
Jumpluff
Espeon
Froslass
Infernape
Kadabra
Rapidash
Lopunny
Mismagius
Charizard
Ninetales
Tentacruel
Typhlosion
Celebi
Slaking
Flygon
Salamence
Jirachi
Staraptor
Shaymin
Raticate
Primeape
Arcanine
Haunter
Jynx
Xatu
Houndoom
Sharpedo
Yanmega
Leafeon
Gliscor
Uxie
Rotom

None of these pokemon are afraid of a plus 2 Marowak at all. A good deal of them can destroy him without batting an eye. Skarmory and can Phase out Marowak, Head Smash doing before Sword Dance 44.3% - 52.1%. Its unlikely that Marowak will be able to survive more than a 2 attacks from many of its revenge kill victims, so it must opt for Agility, if anything. Afterwords, nearly any of the above Pokemon can come in and either cripple it with status, or just plain kill it, some can even come in on a completely fresh Marowak and completely kill it. Many of the slower pokemon in the metagame also have ways to either OHKO Marowak or can escape it. Scizor can get out with U-turn, Metagross can kill it with Exploison, or hit it if it attempts to stat boost, and then kill it next turn with Bullet Punch next turn. There are also pokemon who speed tie with him who also pose a major threat, such as Choice Scarf Porygon-Z.

In all honesty, the only Pokemon who is honestly hurt by this version of Marowak is Blissey. This is its only true way to set up anymore than Plus 2 speed, which it would need to sweep a team with its patheic 45 speed. I assure you that I spent much time crunching numbers on all of these pokemon these past three days, and none are over or underpowered, but fulfill very specific and needed roles within the metagame. The presence of Marowak is to open up the field for special sweepers, by being weak to them himself, and by eliminating their greatest threat, Blissey.
 

Wave⁂

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How hard would it be for a 252 HP / 252 SpDef Marowak to switch into a Blissey and get +4 Atk and +4 Speed?

The main problem that I have with Delcatty is that it can't do anything besides spread status. It completely stopped by stuff that doesn't mind status; Starmie, Celebi, and Shaymin's Natural Cure, Rest Talk Machamp, Gyarados, and Suicune, standard Breloom, fast Substitute users, etc.
 

CRASHiC

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That would be impossible Wave. There is quite simply no way that it could ever get plus 4 on both stats.
First off, let's go with standard Blissey. This will run Seismic Toss. A smart Blissey will hit with Toxic first, then begin its Seismic Toss attack. After 2 Seismic Tosses, the third turn under Toxic, Marowak will be forced to attack. This means that he could only get 3 stat boost, and then he is going to die after he kills Blissey, and that's an IF Blissey doesn't Protect that turn as it should. Congraulations, you just waisted a Pokemon to kill Blissey. If you have Spikes up, (Stealth Rock doesn't dip Marowak below 300 at Max HP) then instead of 3 stat boost you will only have 1.

Keep in mind, this is all assuming that Blissey didn't Toxic you on your way in. This is purely Marowak switching in after a pokemon has somehow died against Blissey.

Against a 0 special attack Blissey Ice Beam, the situation is even worse, doing 30.9% - 36.4% (100 - 118). In this situation, Marowak has potentially even less time to set up.

Even more, let's look at what happens to Marowak when you run 0 attack and speed EVs, see how well this boards for you.
Attack with Bown Club- 392
Speed after a single Agility- 252

So now you have a pokemon that's weaker than TTar, has FAR less bulk (in Sandstorm), and less than 10 points faster in speed. If you don't run max HP, but do run max SpD, then Marowak will take over 50 percent per Ice Beam. Blissey is by far his best OU chance to set up a sweep, and yet even here he fails. Marowak has 0 potential as a stat booster unless he has received boost from a Baton pass. His main and only use is in being a deadly revenge killer.

Now onto Delcatty, its easy to cast Delcatty solely into a Status spreader, but in truth, thanks to its new found bulk, decent typing, wonderful ability, access to Wish, Baton Pass, and a slew of other great supporting moves, Delcatty can do a lot for its team. For example, on a baton pass team, it serves the wonderful ability to Mean Look their opponent in now, and can pass the effect onto its next user. It also possesses many, many team assisting moves, from Wish to Heal Bell. I think you might overlook the power of a Pokemon with great bulk, access to duel screens, wish, no weakness to Special Attacks and access to Will-o-wisp. Delcatty serves as a wall, supporter, annoyer, and baton passer. What Ulti did with her is pretty genious, and I am in full support.
 
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