Eight Melodies
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, but it's not PK Fire.Hey, don't forget the PK Thunder, it's important for Ness (I think ?).
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Yeah, but it's not PK Fire.Hey, don't forget the PK Thunder, it's important for Ness (I think ?).
Yeah that's the strategy I think everyone who's fought a little mac came to. My problem with him is that there's not many characters that can contest little mac on the ground so if they don't have a projectile you're kinda screwed especially if you're fighting one who knows exactly what you're trying to do, I literally waited 2 minutes for mac to approach me or attack me he waited me out because I was Ganondorf there was nothing I could do that wouldn't get punished except shield and waitI haven't ran into many Greninjas yet, so I can't speak of that. But when I'm up against a Little Mac, I find that shield grabbing works for me usually; just pop them into the air and combo them. I try to give them no chance to recover, and just keep them busy. Also for Ness, because his back grab (not sure of the proper term) is so powerful, you can stand at one far edge of the platform, and shield grab to get KOs. This especially works well if the Little Mac you're playing against is clumsy.
Totally agree about game and watch, I played someone really good today and he charged his d smash and missed I went to punish him and he instantly went into f smash and K'O'd me, needless to say I was confused I actually had to save the replay to figure out what happened.For most of the Greninja I played against, it looks like he was designed purely for a flat level to take advantage of his moveset. Ironically enough, a slower fighter like a Link with lots of projectiles does fairly well against Greninja. It's all about forcing a large amount of space to prevent his easily stringable combos. Also, while not OP, Mr Game & Watch is certainly a broken character due to his frame animations. Because of the way he's animated his attacks have almost no cooldown frames, and he can attack right out of his recovery move, unlike most other characters. Some serious balancing is needed there. Finally, for now, Megaman's up air needs to have a limit to its effect. I've literally been carried up off the top of the stage by having it spammed at me. Its just like the Luigi Ladder, except it only takes one character to do it.
As a Mega Man player, I personally disagree with limiting U-Air. It's a pretty weird move when it comes to how early it can kill, but I'd rather have that then just have it be a meh projectile that takes forever to kill. If other characters like Sheik or ZSS can be treated to a U-Air that kills, why not Mega Man? It's equally as predictable and probably harder to land because you can't change the direction of the Air Shooter once it's off and doesn't juggle all that well because it doesn't take much to avoid it. If it's somewhat difficult to land, I don't see why it shouldn't kill once you actually hit someone with it.Megaman's up air needs to have a limit to its effect. I've literally been carried up off the top of the stage by having it spammed at me. Its just like the Luigi Ladder, except it only takes one character to do it.
Clearly you have never been hit by Ganon's FtiltBut their moves are slow and punishable.
It is about racking up the damages with fast moves, not knocking them back. You can kill them late, but if you don't let them touch you with their strong moves, you don't get knocked out. P.S. it helps if you play a fast character.
Out of curiosity, what do you think makes Olimar so good? I honestly can't see him being anything other than bottom, even after playing against a really good one.Honestly I think High/Top Tiers in no particular order will consist of:
Yo.... You're playing Ganon and claiming Lil Mac is OP? Yeah, you can't shield grab (Lol Ganon's grab range is so bad...), but you do outrange him with Dtilt, choke gives no ****s about super armor, and Ftilt kills him at pretty much any percent.Yeah that's the strategy I think everyone who's fought a little mac came to. My problem with him is that there's not many characters that can contest little mac on the ground so if they don't have a projectile you're kinda screwed especially if you're fighting one who knows exactly what you're trying to do, I literally waited 2 minutes for mac to approach me or attack me he waited me out because I was Ganondorf there was nothing I could do that wouldn't get punished except shield and wait
I want to add that it can be absorbed/countered/airdodged/etc ON HIT as well. It is a good move, but it's not GREAT (Hell it's not even in his top 5 moves) but not needing any changes. Hell, if you did want to "fix" the move, then instead of nerfing it, add actual hitstun to it so people can't escape it/absorb it AFTER being hit by it.As a Mega Man player, I personally disagree with limiting U-Air. It's a pretty weird move when it comes to how early it can kill, but I'd rather have that then just have it be a meh projectile that takes forever to kill. If other characters like Sheik or ZSS can be treated to a U-Air that kills, why not Mega Man? It's equally as predictable and probably harder to land because you can't change the direction of the Air Shooter once it's off and doesn't juggle all that well because it doesn't take much to avoid it. If it's somewhat difficult to land, I don't see why it shouldn't kill once you actually hit someone with it.
I played against a pretty good one 3 times in a row, and then a less good one, and I am convinced that they improved the rest of his kit in return for taking away 3 pikmin in addition to giving him a lineup that he can reliably predict what he gets next.So I just saw/read through this thread and as a result will reply to multiple posts at once:
Clearly you have never been hit by Ganon's Ftilt
Out of curiosity, what do you think makes Olimar so good? I honestly can't see him being anything other than bottom, even after playing against a really good one.
Yo.... You're playing Ganon and claiming Lil Mac is OP? Yeah, you can't shield grab (Lol Ganon's grab range is so bad...), but you do outrange him with Dtilt, choke gives no ****s about super armor, and Ftilt kills him at pretty much any percent.
Also if you hit a dash attack or a Dtilt you can pretty easily combo him into death with Uairs (Outside of low %s he can counter out, but it's not that hard to read when that's his ONLY air option).
Jab gives Ganon issues, but other than that perfect shield/dodge and punish (Some of Mac's moves are punishable on block for Ganon, but most aren't due to his ****-tastic grab range). Bait a roll and punish. Ganon literally needs to hit Little Mac twice to win.
I want to add that it can be absorbed/countered/airdodged/etc ON HIT as well. It is a good move, but it's not GREAT (Hell it's not even in his top 5 moves) but not needing any changes. Hell, if you did want to "fix" the move, then instead of nerfing it, add actual hitstun to it so people can't escape it/absorb it AFTER being hit by it.
Interesting and I would say they were good players, I think people don't understand mac's strengths well because the wanna believe that every mac player is a scrub who doesn't know how to play the game wellBefore people start saying "oh you can just throw Little Mac off the Stage", please watch at least one video of a good Little Mac, thanks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8c4b11oJ0E
Little Mac's recovery is not nearly as bad as people are saying. He has counter and air dodge to escape simplistic "throw off the edge and then aerial", and he can also wall jump. In order to stop him recovering near the stage you need a good read.
Hmmm okay. Maybe he felt weaker because of the character I played (Megaman), but it seems really easy to eliminate an entire pikmin line with a short combo leaving him more or less helpless until he plucks again (AKA he gets juggled to death without Pikmin). The fact he can only have one purple at a time seemed bad too since the others have pretty ****ty priority.I played against a pretty good one 3 times in a row, and then a less good one, and I am convinced that they improved the rest of his kit in return for taking away 3 pikmin in addition to giving him a lineup that he can reliably predict what he gets next.
I dunno. I think people are sleeping on him because people just assumed he is worse because he has less pikmin. It's kinda like Diddy where he lost his banana game, but is still arguably one of the best characters in the game. This is all speculation though.
I agree but op doesn't necessarily mean you wouldn't find a way to deal with them it's more like if the way you found is the only effective method while they have multiple ways of dealing with everyone else, if they didn't have an effective strat they would be considered brokenI don't think any character is OP. You can find ways to deal with anything. Just adapt
The problem is that the opponent character can adapt too, and if they have more options than you do you'll run out of adaptations first.I don't think any character is OP. You can find ways to deal with anything. Just adapt
I dunno about that. There are definitely characters like Ganon or Shulk that come short compared to the others.There's no "OP" characters. Sakurai and his team managed to balance the game very well and I think every character can be considered as viable if you play well.
Of course, some characters seems to be under others, but if the player is good, you can defeat anything.I dunno about that. There are definitely characters like Ganon or Shulk that come short compared to the others.
Not that it's impossible to win with them either. You're right in that this is a well balanced game: no matchup seems to be Luigi vs Meta Knight Brawl hard or Link vs Sheik Melee hard. We'll just have to keep playing and exploring to find out though
Nothing is ever "unbeatable", sure. But you have cases where one player can afford to play much less well and still score a huge win just because his/her choice of character is much better than their opponent's.Of course, some characters seems to be under others, but if the player is good, you can defeat anything.
But yeah, the metagame (and the game itself) is pretty young, so we still need to explore.
So then it's a simplistic predict the air dodge/counter then aerial? It certainly helps since they can read your read and just try to recover, but if that coin flip happens every time he's tossed off stage, then that's not very good. At all.Little Mac's recovery is not nearly as bad as people are saying. He has counter and air dodge to escape simplistic "throw off the edge and then aerial", and he can also wall jump. In order to stop him recovering near the stage you need a good read.
Yeah, only in the "For Glory" mode that you can see really bad/clumsy Mac. However, really good players that plays Little Mac aren't that "easy" to defeat I think.Little Mac? All u have to do is trow him off the edge and hit him once, I haven't met a single little mac in for glory to actually beat me. And why would greninja be op? I can't see a single.thing about him that is.
I mean maybe I am the one that is wrong. I think I'll make an attempt to pick up Olimar, and see how he feels myself. Nothing like a 50-100 game run to see how a character feels.Hmmm okay. Maybe he felt weaker because of the character I played (Megaman), but it seems really easy to eliminate an entire pikmin line with a short combo leaving him more or less helpless until he plucks again (AKA he gets juggled to death without Pikmin). The fact he can only have one purple at a time seemed bad too since the others have pretty ****ty priority.
Finally I could be wrong on this but it felt like they got rid of elemental immunities since Crash Bomb was demolishing all of his Pikmin at once, including the red one.
It depends where he is off stage. If he is close enough to the stage that he can make it back just using his double jump alone, his recovery is pretty free, he has many options to alter where he will recover and you won't generally be able to cover enough of them to have a serious shot at the gimp. Where he starts to become susceptible to the 50/50 is when he has to use a move to recover, because his recovery options can be stuffed, but the way you stuff it depends on which one he goes for and if done properly you can't really react to the one he chooses, you just have to guess. At long distance, he just can't make it back at all, either he only has one recovery option and it's totally obvious and easily stuffed, or he literally just can't make it back period.So then it's a simplistic predict the air dodge/counter then aerial? It certainly helps since they can read your read and just try to recover, but if that coin flip happens every time he's tossed off stage, then that's not very good. At all.
That is because Megaman is not hard to deal with. Megaman is overall underwhelming.I don't understand why people are saying Greninja is OP, he's rather challenging to play as, just like Little Mac is. I put him in the class of characters that are difficult to get used to, but are very formidable fighters when used correctly. Mega Man falls into this category, and no one seems to be calling him OP.
Mega Man can be a formidable fighter in the right hands, trust me.That is because Megaman is not hard to deal with. Megaman is overall underwhelming.
Littlemac is not OP because he has a very defined weakness that is pretty easy to exploit.
Greninja is not OP, but he IS definitely high/top tier. The reason people have a hard time with him is because he has more options in any given situation than most characters, so it is hard for a lot of people to deal with him. (I.E. his neutral game is above average)
Formidable, but still very underwhelming.Mega Man can be a formidable fighter in the right hands, trust me.
The ledge is always an option vs anybody you really don't want to try to recover onstage against. Little Mac has a pretty fast fastfall, so unless you're right in his face he can usually get to the ledge pretty safely, and if you are right there he can attempt to go over you with his double jump or side B.OR if you are Captain Falcon, you just put him in the air and don't let him get down.
If he starts air dodging/ countering, you just time out it and punish. Falcon is just kinda like I own this place as soon as Mac leaves the ground. Provided, Mac has answers on the ground, I think that the matchup with my main is definitely in Falcon's favor. Just imo xD
Shhhhh... let him stay slept on for now so I can keep fishing for props when I win.Mega Man can be a formidable fighter in the right hands, trust me.
Of those four, it seems like Sheik and Greninja are tougher to use right than Rosalina and Zero Suit Samus.95% of fighting game tier lists post release start with "this game is so balanced!" and diverse impressions. But eventually, some characters will prove so much better than others.
We already have a pretty good consensus of the top tiers (Sheik, Rosalina, Zamus, Greninja). I can only see the balance flaws becoming more and more prominent.
I just think from experience against Mac's here at GSU and online thusfar, the matchup is easy for Falcon imo. Granted, it is not unwinnable for Mac, he has a very hard time getting down once he is above Falcon because Falcon also has a fast fast fall, and if he uses the side b to avoid being juggled, Falcon's dash speed is fast enough to punish that move.The ledge is always an option vs anybody you really don't want to try to recover onstage against. Little Mac has a pretty fast fastfall, so unless you're right in his face he can usually get to the ledge pretty safely, and if you are right there he can attempt to go over you with his double jump or side B.
Agreed, getting a KO setup with Sheik can be difficult when your opponent has a god-like recovery. lolOf those four, it seems like Sheik and Greninja are tougher to use right than Rosalina and Zero Suit Samus.