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NintenZone Social Thread: Shovel Knight Amiibo Hype Catastrophe (feat. Swamp)

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Reality_Ciak

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My reactions because why not?
:4villager:: OOOOOMMMG SMASSSHH- wait. Is Nook going to follow him??
:4megaman:: no frickin' way. My roommate most be exploding with joy right now. Sweet.
:4wiifit:: slots. SLOTS. WE'RE WORRIED ABOUT THE SLOTS.
:rosalina:: OMG KIRBYAIRRIDE2... Kirby in Mario Kart..? NOOO WHAT ABOUT THE LIMITED SLOTS? Looks cool. Like my idea for Wes and the Eeveelutions...
:4littlemac:: finally someone I predicted! Now I most continue to try to beat Mike Tyson...
:4charizard::4greninja:: what about Squirtle and Ivysuar? :( Mewtw-WTF NO. NO. Now we need Sceptile. Because the dissolved they trinity. And that ain't Mewtwo. Oh well DLC. Or maybe they will retire Jigglypuff (got nonsensical with disappointment)
:4mii:: I was so against this and yet they look sweet.
:4palutena:: Leaks are really killing the mood. Really wanted Medusa.. at least it's not Dark Pit. (Sees end of trailer) I swear to Palutena if he's playable.......
:4pacman:: LET US SEE LET US SEE LET US SEE OMG WAKA WAKA OMG MY MOM WILL KNOW THIS ONE
:4lucina::4robinm:: Why Lucina? Oh is she just an alt? FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFROBIN OMG I HAVE NEVER BEEN SO HYPE. They said Robin had no chance because Chrom.. wait.. are we getting Chrom too?? This is too much FE.. where are the axes and lances? Lemme rewatch. Oh. No Chrom. Ok. Bye bye Gematsu.
:4shulk:: welp. Maybe there are more characters than the leak... this is a tad underwelming. Awesome playstyle. Derserves to be in.
:4pit:: :4darkpit:: what the hell... I'M SORRY EVER CALLED ANY CHARACTER A CLONE BEFORE SMASH 4 (bar original Luigi)
:4bowserjr:: I never wanted you. And you are one of the most redeeming qualities to this batch of newcomers. And this trailer is my favorite. I shed a tear.
:4duckhunt:: Never wanted a leaked character to be real more in my life. So perf.
:4mewtwo:: THE DREAM IS ALIVE. DLC IS HAPPENING. I wonder if his moveset will change at all. I dn't hate Lucario and Greninja as much now.
:4lucas:: I never thought I wanted Lucas and Wolf back, I predicted them to be cut, but I cried real tears of happiness for Lucas. And the ballot blew my mind.
:4feroy:: Decloned. Hell yeah. Nice to see you back. Want axes and lances but whatever.
:4ryu:: wut. Really? Ok.
:4drmario:: oh I forgot you. Why you. Why not Mewtwo. Or Roy. Or Pichu. Why you. Why.
 
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D

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Game night? Sure, we can play games online and hate each other even more!
But night may not be suited because time zones, we need times where most members can join it
 
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Swamp Sensei

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Well the thing keeping me from just going to 100% it is that the requirements are stupidly hard...

Like...Gah.
 
Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I voted for everything but "play Bayonetta 2". You should eventually play that, but only after you 10% the first game.
 
Huarbolo

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Why do CPU partners in Sm4sh 3DS suck so bad compared to the ones on the opposing side? I mean really?!!!!! I was fighting against sonic and Lucina and I got stuck with Ike and he walks to edge and dies
 
Chrono.

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Huarbolo said:
Why do CPU partners in Sm4sh 3DS suck so bad compared to the ones on the opposing side? I mean really?!!!!! I was fighting against sonic and Lucina and I got stuck with Ike and he walks to edge and dies
Click to expand...
Smash AI a ****
 
Firus

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Scarlet. said:
I think I should mention that I started playing the game just over a week ago. People seem to be throwing words like "playstyle" around without explaining what relevance this has. Either way I guess the only way is to experiment with different characters and hope that one magically clicks.
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"Playstyle" is a much more simple term than it sounds; it's literally just how a character plays, not necessarily in any sort of technical sense or anything. Like, if you enjoy being able to take more damage and deal out lots of knockback, a heavy character like Ike or King Dedede might have a playstyle you enjoy. Personally, I know I get a kick out of a lot of different playstyles, but something that I really like is a good mix of ranged moves, which is why I like characters like Villager and my main, Samus. It's really just a matter of testing out a character and seeing how they feel, and deciding if that's a fun/satisfying experience for you. Even if you enjoy a particular kind of thing, like ranged attacks for example, that doesn't mean every character with ranged attacks is going to do it for you.

That last bit in the quote is pretty much the best way to go, from my experience. I always play with every character and narrow down from there based on the characters I enjoy playing the most. It all comes down to fun in the end, but in order to determine what's going to be fun for you you have to do a bit of (no pun intended) playing around. I find that it helps to keep going back to characters, too, because some characters that initially didn't click with me have become some of my favorite characters to play as.
 
Frisk.

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Firus said:
"Playstyle" is a much more simple term than it sounds; it's literally just how a character plays, not necessarily in any sort of technical sense or anything. Like, if you enjoy being able to take more damage and deal out lots of knockback, a heavy character like Ike or King Dedede might have a playstyle you enjoy. Personally, I know I get a kick out of a lot of different playstyles, but something that I really like is a good mix of ranged moves, which is why I like characters like Villager and my main, Samus. It's really just a matter of testing out a character and seeing how they feel, and deciding if that's a fun/satisfying experience for you. Even if you enjoy a particular kind of thing, like ranged attacks for example, that doesn't mean every character with ranged attacks is going to do it for you.

That last bit in the quote is pretty much the best way to go, from my experience. I always play with every character and narrow down from there based on the characters I enjoy playing the most. It all comes down to fun in the end, but in order to determine what's going to be fun for you you have to do a bit of (no pun intended) playing around. I find that it helps to keep going back to characters, too, because some characters that initially didn't click with me have become some of my favorite characters to play as.
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I appreciate the response. I was aware of different characters playing differently, I don't think I made it clear enough so I'll try and explain. I've read through different guides on "how to choose a main" and nearly every time it asks what "my" playstyle is. If I'm looking at different characters and their playstyles then I'm supposed to find a character that matches how I enjoy playing. For me the problem is that I really don't know how I like to play I guess. Perhaps it's due to the fact that I haven't played the game enough as of yet but it just seems a little flawed that on these guides for new players they would put something so unspecific and then not really go in depth to explain it either.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to respond though, I'm thinking about having a good experimentation session to try and figure out what style of play I enjoy the most.
 
Omega Tyrant

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Das Koopa said:
Specials often help a character map out a strategy better on top of their standards, because the majority of damage building comes from standard attacks. This isn't always the case, as projectile-heavy characters tend to use a lot of specials as the bread and butter of their strategy, but standard attacks have specials completely outnumbered and give a character aerial presence.

Hence, a character with bad specials and really good standard attacks is a lot more likely to be really good than a character with poor standard attacks but really good specials. I mean, if Zelda gets a Din's Fire buff that makes it a fantastic projectile, she'll still be a terrible character because her standards are (mostly) terrible.
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Standard moves may do the bulk of the damage for the most part, but the special moves end up being what do the most important things, whether it be zoning out, recovery, getting out of bad situations, killing/setting up kills, etc.

Characters with bad specials that don't really serve an important purpose while still managing to be high tier characters are rare. The only real examples is non-Brawl Captain Falcon, which is because he has such great standards all around that do what they do so well, combined with amazing mobility specs. But even in Falcon's case, his bad specials are mainly what hold him back from top tier. Melee Ice Climbers might be the only other example, but they mostly managed that because of a game breaking aspect in Wobbling, while like Falcon, their terrible specials gave them weaknesses that kept them from the top tiers.

And there exists characters with bad standards but good specials being high tier. Brawl Diddy's standards were really lackluster; sure they were pretty fast, but many other characters had as fast or faster, and they were some of the weakest set of moves in the game, while their reach was pretty average if not poor. Yet Brawl Diddy was an absolutely overpowered top tier, because of his amazing specials; mainly bananas being such a broken projectile, and Monkey Flip being a godly move that did so much. Then there's Brawl Pikachu, whose standards were pretty lackluster like Diddy's, but three of his specials being so amazing propelled him up to the high tiers.

The high tier cases on both sides are exceptional however, typically the top/high tiers in all games have great standards and specials. In most cases though, it's the specials that truly lead their dominance.

Also regarding Zelda, buffing Din's Fire into a legitimately good projectile would be HUGE for her. Zelda's biggest critical problem is that she's horrendous at approaching, but also horrendous at camping/zoning out. Giving her a projectile to zone with could single-handily make her a useable if not viable character. It's not "bad standards" that make her bottom tier.
 
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LIQUID12A

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Scarlet. said:
So I wondered how people here chose which character (or characters) they wanted to main?

Personally I'm struggling a little when it comes to choosing who to play as.
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I go by playstyle and/or series when choosing a character to stick as.

Samus encompasses both things perfectly(favorite Nintendo series, a zoner, my forte), so she's my go-to character.

But then I need another character to fall on. Someone for when I want to play a little more aggressively and deal loads of damage. Bowser stands as one of my favorite villains, period(though Mario is nowhere near as much a favorite as Metroid is for me), and his playstyle is just aggression incarnate. My backup serious character.

And then there's everyone I use casually like Robin, Lucina and Mewtwo because I like them.
 
Omega Tyrant

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Huarbolo said:
Why do CPU partners in Sm4sh 3DS suck so bad compared to the ones on the opposing side? I mean really?!!!!! I was fighting against sonic and Lucina and I got stuck with Ike and he walks to edge and dies
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The harder difficulties of Classic mode in all Smash games (except Smash U) weaken your partner during team battles, both statistically and in intelligence. It's one of the things they do to increase the difficulty (as annoying as it is).

Here's an shining example of it back in a no stock loss Classic run I did in early 3DS:
 
Naoshi

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Seaman was a really cool and quirky as **** game from what I have seen.

There was about to be a 3DS reboot with Iwata & co involved in helping with development, which was recently revealed. (Although the game was already rumored years ago.) Needless to say, it got cancelled.



Also, Dreamcast is an amazing system. Power Stone is one of the best fighters ever made.
 
Das Koopa

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Omega Tyrant said:
Standard moves may do the bulk of the damage for the most part, but the special moves end up being what do the most important things, whether it be zoning out, recovery, getting out of bad situations, killing/setting up kills, etc.
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Damage building is, by far, one of the most important aspects. You mostly use standard attacks unless you're playing a few key specific characters. I'm not trying to undersell specials here, you're right in what they give- with recovery being (on average) the most useful aspect a special is going to give, but if Shiek's specials were made bad, she'd be more likely to still be top tier than if her standards were similarly made bad. That's my point. This is going to apply to most characters.


Characters with bad specials that don't really serve an important purpose while still managing to be high tier characters are rare. The only real examples is non-Brawl Captain Falcon, which is because he has such great standards all around that do what they do so well, combined with amazing mobility specs. But even in Falcon's case, his bad specials are mainly what hold him back from top tier. Melee Ice Climbers might be the only other example, but they mostly managed that because of a game breaking aspect in Wobbling, while like Falcon, their terrible specials gave them weaknesses that kept them from the top tiers.
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The only special that explicitly holds Falcon back is his poor recovery, but giving him a decent one doesn't change the fact that he relies on momentum. If you're in a position where you're required to recover as Falcon, you still have an uphill battle to actually start gaining momentum. Otherwise, you're combo food. Those are Falcon's big weaknesses, and they don't simply stem from "bad specials".

Ice Climbers are held back by their linearity. They rely on Wobbling to compete at a top level, meaning they're predictable. There's a set strategy for countering them: Separate Nana and Popo, and that's their downfall at a top level.


The high tier cases on both sides are exceptional however, typically the top/high tiers in all games have great standards and specials. In most cases though, it's the specials that truly lead their dominance.
Click to expand...
it's really the whole moveset. You have your examples above, but my point is that if you took existing characters and nerfed their specials and left them with their standards, they're more likely to do well at top level play than vice versa. Diddy was an extreme example that wouldn't reflect most of the cast in this game.


Also regarding Zelda, buffing Din's Fire into a legitimately good projectile would be HUGE for her. Zelda's biggest critical problem is that she's horrendous at approaching, but also horrendous at camping/zoning out. Giving her a projectile to zone with could single-handily make her a useable if not viable character. It's not "bad standards" that make her bottom tier.
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She's a light and floaty character with one reliable aerial. That's all that really needs to be said. A better ability to camp isn't going to maker her viable when she's slow, lacks good mobility, and has nothing to back a theoretically good Din's Fire up except a couple of good tilts and an okay Nair.
 
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AreJay25

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D

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I watched Fantasstic 4 with my friends yesterday.
My brain can't process anything that happened.
Still, it deserves an Oscar for "Best Comedy Movie" for being so bad it's funny... and painful, very very painful
 
Guybrush20X6

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I heard something like 40 million losses on FF. How does that rank with other superhero flops profit wise? (or lack thereof)
 
Omega Tyrant

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Das Koopa said:
Damage building is, by far, one of the most important aspects. You mostly use standard attacks unless you're playing a few key specific characters. I'm not trying to undersell specials here, you're right in what they give- with recovery being (on average) the most useful aspect a special is going to give, but if Shiek's specials were made bad, she'd be more likely to still be top tier than if her standards were similarly made bad. That's my point. This is going to apply to most characters.
Click to expand...
There's a lot more that goes into the game than damage building. Spacing/zoning opponents out to get safe damage and setup opportunities to build damage at all, avoiding damage so you keep the lead and don't get killed, finishing off stocks. etc. If pure damage building was what mattered most, Brawl Sonic would have been one of the best characters instead of a mediocre one, and Brawl Snake wouldn't have been that good.

For your example, if you made Needles, Vanish, and Bouncing Fish bad, Sheik would absolutely not be top tier anymore. Those are by far the most important moves in her moveset, and are the biggest contributors to why she has been such an OP character. Needles let her zone out everyone despite being a rushdown character and are used for important kill setups/gimps, Vanish gives her an absolutely free recovery and a really effective KO move to finish off stocks early, and Bouncing Fish recovers, finishes combos, kills, and gets Sheik out of bad situations for free.


The only special that explicitly holds Falcon back is his poor recovery, but giving him a decent one doesn't change the fact that he relies on momentum. If you're in a position where you're required to recover as Falcon, you still have an uphill battle to actually start gaining momentum. Otherwise, you're combo food. Those are Falcon's big weaknesses, and they don't simply stem from "bad specials".
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That bad recovery is Falcon's biggest flaw and is the main thing holding him back, especially in Smash 4 where bad recoveries aren't the norm. And Falcon being "combo food" comes from, besides falling speed, him lacking specials that gives him protection when sent into the air. Time to bring up Smash 4 Sheik, she's a fast faller like Falcon who lacks aerials with disjointed hitboxes, but why doesn't she get hit anywhere near as hard when sent into the air? Because of Vanish and Bouncing Fish getting her out of such situations. If you made Falcon Dive a good recovery move somehow, and turn aerial Falcon kick into a move that could more reliably get Falcon back to neutral from the air, Smash 4 Falcon would definitely become a top tier.

Ice Climbers are held back by their linearity. They rely on Wobbling to compete at a top level, meaning they're predictable. There's a set strategy for countering them: Separate Nana and Popo, and that's their downfall at a top level.
Click to expand...
That linearity is a result of specials that give them little additional effective options and that fail to cover the holes in their offenses and defenses.

it's really the whole moveset. You have your examples above, but my point is that if you took existing characters and nerfed their specials and left them with their standards, they're more likely to do well at top level play than vice versa. Diddy was an extreme example that wouldn't reflect most of the cast in this game.
Click to expand...
Again you're really underselling the impacts of specials to a character's success. I covered Sheik. With Zamus, if you took away Flip Kick and Paralyzer, amd removed all of Boost Kick's KO power, Zamus would plummet through the tier list. If you took away Sonic's Spin Dash shenanigans and combos, and took away the invincibility and distance of Spring (as well as the not giving helplessness feature), Sonic would be outright terrible. If you made Luigi's fireball a lot laggier, and removed Cyclone's mobility and height gaining feature, Luigi would become pretty damn bad. You take away Diddy's banana and Monkey Flip, he would end up a pretty mediocre character.

With Rosalina it's difficult to discern. But you take away Luma shot, she wouldn't be able to space Luma out anymore, one of the most pivotal aspects of her character. And Gravity is the major reason she is such a hard matchup for characters who rely on projectiles (and Ness/Lucas), so losing it would hurt her a lot more in these matchups than losing any single standard would.

She's a light and floaty character with one reliable aerial. That's all that really needs to be said. A better ability to camp isn't going to maker her viable when she's slow, lacks good mobility, and has nothing to back a theoretically good Din's Fire up except a couple of good tilts and an okay Nair.
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"She's a light and floaty character with one reliable aerial. That's all that really needs to be said. "

Yeah no, this kind of attitude is what leads to inadequate information being given and people saying what amounts to bull**** (e.g. Mii Swordfighter is totally bottom 5 still!)

If Din's Fire was a good projectile that could be used to effectively zone with, it would mean opponents would have to approach Zelda. Which means Zelda could actually utilise her moveset defensively like it's tailored to. It would mean her poor mobility is a minor annoyance instead of being crippling (poor mobility hurts you a lot more when you actually need to approach and chase people; see Brawl Olimar for why poor mobility doesn't matter when you can camp everyone out and hit hard when they get in). Suddenly Lightning Kick won't be so bad, when you can afford to throw them out, and hard hitting moves that don't really combo would become a lot more meaningful when your opponent is soaking up more passive damage and being more pressured.

You really need to learn your Zelda stuff, and how moves intertwine into a character's design, before spouting off stuff like this.

Would Zelda become a good character solely because of Din's Fire being good? Highly doubtful, but such a buff would go a very long way to making Zelda a usable mid tier, much moreso than any non-ridiculous buffs to her tilts and aerials would.
 
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RamOne

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