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NintenZone Social Thread: Shovel Knight Amiibo Hype Catastrophe (feat. Swamp)

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Chrono.

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Sorry I'll stop -_-. I was trying to joke with you guys, not to fool anyone. Doing it a 2nd time does get annoying. This is the last time I will post the Direct symbol unless an actual direct is announced.
I'm sure he was kidding too.

...Though I definitely won't mind if you cool it with the fake announcements.
 

Starlight_Lily

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Sorry I'll stop -_-. I was trying to joke with you guys, not to fool anyone. Doing it a 2nd time does get annoying. This is the last time I will post the Direct symbol unless an actual direct is announced.
Just wait with him saying this, he'll just post one next week to really troll us since we'll have our guard down.:awesome:
 

epicmartin7

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I'm sure he was kidding too.

...Though I definitely won't mind if you cool it with the fake announcements.
I knew he was joking. I just don't want to be known as a guy who fools people. My intent wasn't even to mess peoples emotion either. That's why I'm stopping with the Joke Announcements. If I saw a fake Direct logo, I would get hype then get really dissapointed too.
 
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epicmartin7

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Just wait with him saying this, he'll just post one next week to really troll us since we'll have our guard down.:awesome:
I assure you I won't :p. I don't really want to people to get annoyed of me in the group. I'm just trying to get into the group a little more as I don't really post here that much as I used to.

I'm even trying to see if I can post something special to Source Gaming "celebrating" a certain anniversary coming up. I PM'd PushDustIn about it (@PushDustIn hasn't responded yet oddly...). I'm hoping I can get everything set up by tomorrow (and I'm trying to not procrastinate again).

Overall, I'm trying to get into the community more.
 
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Starlight_Lily

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I assure you I won't :p. I don't really want to people to get annoyed of me in the group. I'm just trying to get into the group a little more as I don't really post here that much as I used to.

I'm even trying to see if I can post something special to Source Gaming "celebrating" a certain anniversary coming up. I PM'd PushDustIn about it (@PushDustIn hasn't responded yet oddly...). I'm hoping I can get everything set up by tomorrow (and I'm trying to not procrastinate again).

Overall, I'm trying to get into the community more.
PushDustin probably hasn't respond because he's asleep, which is what I should be since its 4 in the UK. Stupid summer throwing my sleep schedule off.
 

epicmartin7

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PushDustin probably hasn't respond because he's asleep, which is what I should be since its 4 in the UK. Stupid summer throwing my sleep schedule off.
Well, it says it's nearly noon there according to google. It could be wrong though.
(https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=what time is it in japan)
He's probably at work right now. I don't mind when he responds, it was merely a little joke. I realize people have lives too XD. The jokes kind of started when I posted Source Gaming articles before him due to time zone differences.
 
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Naoshi

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Happy Birthday @Kokonoe!

I assure you I won't :p. I don't really want to people to get annoyed of me in the group. I'm just trying to get into the group a little more as I don't really post here that much as I used to.

I'm even trying to see if I can post something special to Source Gaming "celebrating" a certain anniversary coming up. I PM'd PushDustIn about it (@PushDustIn hasn't responded yet oddly...). I'm hoping I can get everything set up by tomorrow (and I'm trying to not procrastinate again).

Overall, I'm trying to get into the community more.
PushDustIn lives in Japan ATM. He's probably at work or something right now.
 

Solfiner

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Hello everyone, I'm back. Nothing new going on I presume?
 

Das Koopa

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Existing nerfs to standards are not what I'm referring too. None of them have been made "mediocre", my hypothetical is talking about two situations:

-One in which a character's specials are made mediocre
-Another where their standards are made mediocre

In either case, a character will significantly drop in tiers if large portions if their then-usable moveset have been significantly weakened. My point is that the former will typically leave a character more viable than the latter, though neither will allow a character to remain high tier. Existing nerfs don't give light to either of our points, because character's haven't had across-the-board nerfs to entire sections of their movesets.


Falcon's poor recovery is what makes offstage such a killing situation for him. Getting back safely and effectively helps you retain your momentum a lot better than struggling and dying all the time when getting back.
There's no way for him to get back and retain momentum with how his character functions. If he's lost stage control, he's lost momentum. If he's off stage and needs to recover to save himself, he's lost stage control. It's easier to gain it back on-stage, but things totally fall apart off-stage because he has no projectiles and a very poor defense. A good recovery means he has a semi-okayish chance of surviving more often after getting knocked offstage, but each re-entry will be at a disadvantage because you lack stage control and, therefore, momentum.

A better recovery would undoubtedly help, but it would not make 20GX come true. It's not his primary weakness. It's like how Jigglypuff just dies really, really easy in Melee and acts as a sort of glass cannon. It's intertwined into how the character functions.

See Brawl Ice Climbers for how fully functional projectiles helped turn them from borderline high tiers to perhaps the second most overpowering character in the entire Smash series after Meta Knight.
Blizzard is leagues more important than ice shot yet is no more critical than their aerials, namely up air. Watching high-level gameplay, it's very clear that the risk of chaingrabbing sways how the match is played and how Icies control the game. Blizzard doesn't diversify their gameplay, it only further acts as a tool to assist them in stay in one place waiting for a chaingrab.

Basically... no, decent projectiles didn't change much of how they were played. The game engine and Brawl's awful balance did the bulk of the work for them.

Having a projectile that makes you a lot harder to get in to hit, and having to not put yourself on the offensive so often, means you're going into the air a lot less often. Thus another way how just buffing Din's Fire adequately goes a really long way to helping Zelda out.
Unless Din's is insanely overpowered, it's very unlikely Zelda will be able to essentially remain stationary and spam Din's Fire the entire game without having to be somewhat mobile. An opponent is eventually going to approach you, meaning Zelda needs to the tools to combat opponents. Her tools are awful when you compare her to other stall/zone oriented characters.


This exemplifies more of how you fail to understand how moves really intertwine and how the usefulness of a move can depend heavily on the rest of the character's kit.
Not all floaty characters play the same, but being in the air longer means you're more likely to use an aerial, increasing demand for that aerial to be good.

This will be more apparent in characters like Jigglypuff, who relies strongly on her air game, but it's still apparent in zoning/defensive characters because mobility is required no matter who you play. Mobility in this game, especially if you're slow, often involving jumping.


Lightning Kick becomes a lot more valuable on a character who can play an effective defensive game, as she is getting hit a lot less often and putting more pressure on her opponent, which means more opportunities to throw them out, and they become a lot more impactful when they do land, when sudden early percent kills mean a lot more when you can't kill your opponent as effectively and can't regain momentum as easily.

But... if they miss, she has to deal with end lag. If she's throwing them out, she's probably close to an opponent, meaning a miss will result in a punish. If this occurs, she'll most likely become airborne, where she has few options, making her decisions more predictable, making her more vulnerable as a result. Because she's floaty, she also will stay in the air longer, meaning she'll stay in an explicit weak zone longer.

This hypothetical Din's fire must be absolutely absurd if it can somehow cover the fact that Zelda's very easy to approach. I mean, that's part of a point of a projectile: To force an approach. When your opponent approaches, your character is supposed to either be able to effectively flee, hit n' run (or some variation on this) or have a toolbox to combat an approach. A toolbox will often consistent of aerials or some strategy that puts an opponent into a smash or a jab, but... Zelda has few options when she's approached.

And again, unless this hypothetical Din's Fire is ridiculous, she WILL get approached. Her aerials provide her few options on top of her very poor mobility. In this hypothetical scenario, she'd get a good-to-broken projectile, but she still carries lackluster aerials that result in a risky and poor punish game on top of poor mobility and weak combination of attributes. (Light, floaty, decent-sized target, slow.)
 

Z25

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So here's a discussion topic:

What do you want to see more of in the next direct, whenever it is? Or one game you want to see announced?
 

Radical Bones

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So here's a discussion topic:

What do you want to see more of in the next direct, whenever it is? Or one game you want to see announced?
Mario Tennis Ultra Smash! I wanna know if it's similar to Mario Tennis on the GC, aka best game ever. Long campaigns, rewards for winning with every character, random characters etc.

And Paper Jam. So pumped for that.
 

Frisk.

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So here's a discussion topic:

What do you want to see more of in the next direct, whenever it is? Or one game you want to see announced?
A Paper Mario game for Wii U.

I'd also like a Smash Bros. Tournament edition for NX. Just a version of Smash with all of the customs and such unlocked off of the bat and some characters that couldn't be in the normal edition due to limitations such as Ice Climbers. I realize this is a pretty out there idea but.. I'd buy it lol.
 

Naoshi

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this is it. the silliest 2hu of all time
the character design in general for that new game is kinda strange

so weird

also I'm gonna assume shes wearing an American flag outfit because of Niel Armstrong's landing on the moon w/ the American flag and all
 
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Z25

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Mario Tennis Ultra Smash! I wanna know if it's similar to Mario Tennis on the GC, aka best game ever. Long campaigns, rewards for winning with every character, random characters etc.

And Paper Jam. So pumped for that.
Paper jam looks good, not sure about ultra smash, the build was to early for me to make a good opinion.
A Paper Mario game for Wii U.

I'd also like a Smash Bros. Tournament edition for NX. Just a version of Smash with all of the customs and such unlocked off of the bat and some characters that couldn't be in the normal edition due to limitations such as Ice Climbers. I realize this is a pretty out there idea but.. I'd buy it lol.
I would love paper mario U but with Paper jam, it probably isn't happening yet. However a super version of super smash bros would be a good idea for the NX and one that more people are thinking about. I'd love if it happened.
 

Retroend

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My reactions because why not?
:4villager:: OOOOOMMMG SMASSSHH- wait. Is Nook going to follow him??
:4megaman:: no frickin' way. My roommate most be exploding with joy right now. Sweet.
:4wiifit:: slots. SLOTS. WE'RE WORRIED ABOUT THE SLOTS.
:rosalina:: OMG KIRBYAIRRIDE2... Kirby in Mario Kart..? NOOO WHAT ABOUT THE LIMITED SLOTS? Looks cool. Like my idea for Wes and the Eeveelutions...
:4littlemac:: finally someone I predicted! Now I most continue to try to beat Mike Tyson...
:4charizard::4greninja:: what about Squirtle and Ivysuar? :( Mewtw-WTF NO. NO. Now we need Sceptile. Because the dissolved they trinity. And that ain't Mewtwo. Oh well DLC. Or maybe they will retire Jigglypuff (got nonsensical with disappointment)
:4mii:: I was so against this and yet they look sweet.
:4palutena:: Leaks are really killing the mood. Really wanted Medusa.. at least it's not Dark Pit. (Sees end of trailer) I swear to Palutena if he's playable.......
:4pacman:: LET US SEE LET US SEE LET US SEE OMG WAKA WAKA OMG MY MOM WILL KNOW THIS ONE
:4lucina::4robinm:: Why Lucina? Oh is she just an alt? FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFROBIN OMG I HAVE NEVER BEEN SO HYPE. They said Robin had no chance because Chrom.. wait.. are we getting Chrom too?? This is too much FE.. where are the axes and lances? Lemme rewatch. Oh. No Chrom. Ok. Bye bye Gematsu.
:4shulk:: welp. Maybe there are more characters than the leak... this is a tad underwelming. Awesome playstyle. Derserves to be in.
:4pit:: :4darkpit:: what the hell... I'M SORRY EVER CALLED ANY CHARACTER A CLONE BEFORE SMASH 4 (bar original Luigi)
:4bowserjr:: I never wanted you. And you are one of the most redeeming qualities to this batch of newcomers. And this trailer is my favorite. I shed a tear.
:4duckhunt:: Never wanted a leaked character to be real more in my life. So perf.
:4mewtwo:: THE DREAM IS ALIVE. DLC IS HAPPENING. I wonder if his moveset will change at all. I dn't hate Lucario and Greninja as much now.
:4lucas:: I never thought I wanted Lucas and Wolf back, I predicted them to be cut, but I cried real tears of happiness for Lucas. And the ballot blew my mind.
:4feroy:: Decloned. Hell yeah. Nice to see you back. Want axes and lances but whatever.
:4ryu:: wut. Really? Ok.
:4drmario:: oh I forgot you. Why you. Why not Mewtwo. Or Roy. Or Pichu. Why you. Why.
real fitting that you forgot dr mario. when i saw him i was in total rage. i rather have pichu over him. the only characters that i was shocked by was megaman and lucas being DLC. the rest were meh. not a single one of my most requested characters were in the game at all. good thing for the ballot.
 

Omega Tyrant

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Existing nerfs to standards are not what I'm referring too. None of them have been made "mediocre", my hypothetical is talking about two situations:

-One in which a character's specials are made mediocre
-Another where their standards are made mediocre

In either case, a character will significantly drop in tiers if large portions if their then-usable moveset have been significantly weakened. My point is that the former will typically leave a character more viable than the latter, though neither will allow a character to remain high tier. Existing nerfs don't give light to either of our points, because character's haven't had across-the-board nerfs to entire sections of their movesets.
And that simply isn't the case; Sheik with mediocre standards would still be able to zone people out very easily, will still get out of many unfavorable positions for free, would be able to recover from practically everything with little ability to edgeguard her, and would have two very effective KO moves and a move to setup KOs. You take the specials away, and Sheik becomes Brawl Sonic without recovery or the ability to get out of bad situations; sure she'll move fast and be able to hit you a lot, but she's never killing you, is taking a ton of damage when she does get hit, and is dying early and often .

There's no way for him to get back and retain momentum with how his character functions. If he's lost stage control, he's lost momentum. If he's off stage and needs to recover to save himself, he's lost stage control. It's easier to gain it back on-stage, but things totally fall apart off-stage because he has no projectiles and a very poor defense. A good recovery means he has a semi-okayish chance of surviving more often after getting knocked offstage, but each re-entry will be at a disadvantage because you lack stage control and, therefore, momentum.

A better recovery would undoubtedly help, but it would not make 20GX come true. It's not his primary weakness. It's like how Jigglypuff just dies really, really easy in Melee and acts as a sort of glass cannon. It's intertwined into how the character functions.
Melee Falcon's non-special stuff are about as good as you can get. What separates him from Fox and Falco, who have strong standards and even worse "combo bait" problems? His specials leave him with no real additional options while they get the single most broken move in the game that can do so much and the game's best projectiles.

"but things totally fall apart off-stage because he has no projectiles and a very poor defense"

Which exist because of his bad special moves. "That's just his playstyle!" isn't the thing holding Falcon back, its his overall options being much less limited than the competition, on account of those specials failing to provide.

Blizzard is leagues more important than ice shot yet is no more critical than their aerials, namely up air. Watching high-level gameplay, it's very clear that the risk of chaingrabbing sways how the match is played and how Icies control the game. Blizzard doesn't diversify their gameplay, it only further acts as a tool to assist them in stay in one place waiting for a chaingrab.

Basically... no, decent projectiles didn't change much of how they were played. The game engine and Brawl's awful balance did the bulk of the work for them.
I seen plenty of high level Brawl and I played high level ICs; their ability to strongly zone people out with their much better Ice Shots and Blizzards is what really made them broken. They no longer had to chase, go fishing for grabs, and prayed Nana didn't get separated in the process; they could now just lay back and force their opponents to act through an ice wall, which made them a lot easier to grab. Both accomplished far more than a pretty good uair did.

Unless Din's is insanely overpowered, it's very unlikely Zelda will be able to essentially remain stationary and spam Din's Fire the entire game without having to be somewhat mobile. An opponent is eventually going to approach you, meaning Zelda needs to the tools to combat opponents. Her tools are awful when you compare her to other stall/zone oriented characters.
And those tools become a lot more capable when your opponent is the one approaching you, instead of you having to chase them around. What concept of that is so hard to understand?

Not all floaty characters play the same, but being in the air longer means you're more likely to use an aerial, increasing demand for that aerial to be good.
Don't know how this is at all a refute to my point on how Zelda is going to be in the air much less often if she's getting hit a lot less from having an actual competent projectile.

Mobility in this game, especially if you're slow, often involving jumping
What? Smash 4 is the most ground-based Smash yet, mostly everyone stays grounded if they're not someone like Puff, Yoshi, and Wario, or someone zoning out with projectiles during neutral.

But... if they miss, she has to deal with end lag. If she's throwing them out, she's probably close to an opponent, meaning a miss will result in a punish. If this occurs, she'll most likely become airborne, where she has few options, making her decisions more predictable, making her more vulnerable as a result. Because she's floaty, she also will stay in the air longer, meaning she'll stay in an explicit weak zone longer.
Lightning Kick's lag is not so bad that it'll be invariably punished regardless of how it's used. A missed move does not necessarily equal a punish. And you're the one pressuring your opponent? Hey it turns out riskier moves become better as your opponent is in a less able position to retaliate a whiff and you're more in control of the flow of the match.

This hypothetical Din's fire must be absolutely absurd if it can somehow cover the fact that Zelda's very easy to approach. I mean, that's part of a point of a projectile: To force an approach. When your opponent approaches, your character is supposed to either be able to effectively flee, hit n' run (or some variation on this) or have a toolbox to combat an approach. A toolbox will often consistent of aerials or some strategy that puts an opponent into a smash or a jab, but... Zelda has few options when she's approached.
The reason Zelda is currently so easy to approach is because her current projectiles are absolutely terrible. Are you going to completely count out how projectiles, unless they're something like Fox Blaster that deal no hitstun whatsoever, are going to make approaching a lot more difficult, as you're going to need to be putting up your shield constantly and maneuvering around differently to get in? You don't just get an open dash through the projectiles to the opponent.

And again, unless this hypothetical Din's Fire is ridiculous, she WILL get approached. Her aerials provide her few options on top of her very poor mobility. In this hypothetical scenario, she'd get a good-to-broken projectile, but she still carries lackluster aerials that result in a risky and poor punish game on top of poor mobility and weak combination of attributes. (Light, floaty, decent-sized target, slow.)
Once again, you ignore the vital aspect that "getting approached" is a much better position to be in, than being "the one who approaches". That's the core concept of competitive Smash in any matchup; the one "getting approach" is the one dictating the match's flow, they're the ones in control, and they're the ones who get to be reactionary to what their opponent does. Even assuming Zelda just got Fox's Blaster, she's in a much better position than before, as she'll be able to play some defense, where she fares much better, instead of having to go out on the offense with a moveset and mobility specs woefully inadequate for such. Then you factor in that a good hypothetical Din's Fire will behave like a typical projectile does instead of Fox's Blaster, and then Zelda doesn't just get to wait for the opponent, they'll have their approaches disrupted and hindered, which in turns makes it much easier for Zelda to react to what they do and punish appropriately.

Really, the main reason Zelda is a bottom tier candidate in Smash 4, was terrible in Brawl, and was terrible in Melee, is because she's a character with the worst design possible for initiating offenses and following through on them, while being completely unable to force approaches so she doesn't have to and then being unable to to hinder any such approaches. Zelda's design isn't fundamentally busted in the wrong way because she lacks a standard nair or bair, her design is busted on the simple fact she's completely screwed over on the whole "approach/getting approached" dynamic, in a way no character but Brawl Ganon and Melee Kirby were.
 
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Das Koopa

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And that simply isn't the case; Sheik with mediocre standards would still be able to zone people out very easily, will still get out of many unfavorable positions for free, would be able to recover from practically everything with little ability to edgeguard her, and would have two very effective KO moves and a move to setup KOs. You take the specials away, and Sheik becomes Brawl Sonic without recovery or the ability to get out of bad situations; sure she'll move fast and be able to hit you a lot, but she's never killing you, is taking a ton of damage when she does get hit, and is dying early and often.
If Shiek is a positive example of specials propelling a character, how many other high tiers are an example of this? (where their specials are technically more valuable long-term?) Would specials Shiek actually be any better than a pseudo-Brawl Sonic? Simply having good KO moves and decent zoning isn't high-tier material if her entire standard moveset is nerfed to hell, so then it'd be a question of which between the two is better, and how to apply that against the rest of the cast with their standard strong versus special strong characters.

My conclusion was that the more decent options available on a standard set would be more useful to a good chunk of the cast than those cast members having greatly nerfed standards. But, to be fair, across-the-board nerfs in this hypothetical debate are vague. Which is probably why we haven't gone anywhere. We may have totally different concepts of how hard/lightly a character's sets are buffed/nerfed.

Melee Falcon's non-special stuff are about as good as you can get. What separates him from Fox and Falco, who have strong standards and even worse "combo bait" problems? His specials leave him with no real additional options while they get the single most broken move in the game that can do so much and the game's best projectiles.

"but things totally fall apart off-stage because he has no projectiles and a very poor defense"

Which exist because of his bad special moves. "That's just his playstyle!" isn't the thing holding Falcon back, its his overall options being much less limited than the competition, on account of those specials failing to provide.
His playstyle counts for a lot unless you're taking this hypothetical into directions where a character gets moves that in no way suit their established playstyle. When I go for hypotheticals with Zelda getting decent Bairs and Uairs, I'm still suggesting this on the basis of improving her options as a defensive character.

You've brought nothing to the table on how Falcon is somehow limited by specials, in spite of the fact that no specials characteristic to his in-your-face and momentum-based playstyle could really make him on the level of Fox or Falco. The most new specials would do is give him more options. But he already has a lot of options. I mean, Raptor Boost is already sometimes used as a mixup, and that's probably the quality of specials I'd expect if Punch and Kick were made to be different.

At the end of the day, unless you fundamentally changed his entire playstyle, you wouldn't be able to jump him 5-6 spots on the tier list with a couple of decent specials on par with his standards and a better recovery. He'd be better, but he wouldn't be carried by it.


I seen plenty of high level Brawl and I played high level ICs; their ability to strongly zone people out with their much better Ice Shots and Blizzards is what really made them broken. They no longer had to chase, go fishing for grabs, and prayed Nana didn't get separated in the process; they could now just lay back and force their opponents to act through an ice wall, which made them a lot easier to grab. Both accomplished far more than a pretty good uair did.
I watched a 40 minute match between Vinnie and Zero from about a year ago and I can't really say I saw Ice Shot used much at all. I can at least say that Blizzard was part of why Zero had to be careful when approaching, but aerials, namely up air, is a lot of what Vinnie threw out when Meta Knight made (largely aerial) approaches.

His aerial play seemed every bit as integral to that top level play as blizzard was, and Icies chaingrabs and Brawl being a broken mess held it all together.

What? Smash 4 is the most ground-based Smash yet, mostly everyone stays grounded if they're not someone like Puff, Yoshi, and Wario, or someone zoning out with projectiles during neutral.
Point taken - but Zelda has poor ground speed. A better point is that she has bad escape tools, thus, less options. Din's Fire doesn't repair this.


And those tools become a lot more capable when your opponent is the one approaching you, instead of you having to chase them around. What concept of that is so hard to understand?
Lightning Kick's lag is not so bad that it'll be invariably punished regardless of how it's used. A missed move does not necessarily equal a punish. And you're the one pressuring your opponent? Hey it turns out riskier moves become better as your opponent is in a less able position to retaliate a whiff and you're more in control of the flow of the match.
Duuuude, the reason Zelda is currently so easy to approach is because her current projectiles are absolutely terrible. Are you going to completely count out how projectiles, unless they're something like Fox Blaster that deal no hitstun whatsoever, are going to make approaching a lot more difficult, as you're going to need to be putting up your shield constantly and maneuvering around differently to get in? You don't just get an open dash through the projectiles to the opponent.
Once again, you ignore the vital aspect that "getting approached" is a much better position to be in, than being "the one who approaches". That's the core concept of competitive Smash in any matchup; the one "getting approach" is the one dictating the match's flow, they're the ones in control, and they're the ones who get to be reactionary to what their opponent does. Even assuming Zelda just got Fox's Blaster, she's in a much better position than before, as she'll be able to play some defense, where she fares much better, instead of having to go out on the offense with a moveset and mobility specs woefully inadequate for such. Then you factor in that a good hypothetical Din's Fire will behave like a typical projectile does instead of Fox's Blaster, and then Zelda doesn't just get to wait for the opponent, they'll have their approaches disrupted and hindered, which in turns makes it much easier for Zelda to react to what they do and punish appropriately.

Really, the main reason Zelda is a bottom tier candidate in Smash 4, was terrible in Brawl, and was terrible in Melee, is because she's a character with the worst design possible for initiating offenses and following through on them, while being completely unable to force approaches so she doesn't have to and then being unable to to hinder any such approaches. Zelda's design isn't fundamentally busted in the wrong way because she lacks a standard nair or bair, her design is busted on the simple fact she's completely screwed over on the whole "approach/getting approached" dynamic, in a way no character but Brawl Ganon and Melee Kirby were.

I understand most of the pieces at play here. But I'm saying that her aerials don't give her the options she needs. When I suggest a better back air and up air, I'm suggesting she have more options to respond to approaches, because the options she currently has aren't really that good.

I get that you're in an advantageous spot when you're being approached. But a lot of that relies on you having a reliable toolbox of moves to use, so your opponent has to account for more. The idea is that your opponent is restrained and is going in on your terms, and the more options you have, the more likely it is for their approach to fail.

But Zelda doesn't have good defensive tools, especially when you compare her to other lightweights or stalling characters. Lightning Kick isn't awful, but it's not a fantastic move, either. It is VERY easy to punish if it fails, and that leads to aforementioned weakness where her in the air is a really bad thing. Most characters like that who ARE sent in the air tend to have more viable options than she does. Her aerials are mostly sweet-spot reliant to be good.

If she lacks options, her response to an approach becomes predictable. You might only need to account for 1-2 moves as opposed to 3-5 on an approach, putting her in a worse situation. If her only weapon is a fox blaster, then she becomes marginally better by virtue of having a semi-okay damage output. So, now an opponent needs to approach. How do you respond? How do you adequately build damage when your moveset gives you one good projectile, poor mobility, and poor coverage?

Like, what happens when an opponent inevitably catches her and makes her go airborne? The sweetspot reliant nature of her aerials means they don't have a ton of effective coverage. How do you return to a neutral game state where you can proceed to zone and stall with your fox blaster or hypothetical overpowered Din's Fire? There are characters with answers to the question "what now" after being knocked away or seriously challenged, but Zelda doesn't really have a set of versatile options.

Of course an approach isn't going to be automatic, but I'm considering all angles of this. What stage? Does it have platforms? Does her projectile cover her overhead? What are her overhead options? If she can duck under platforms, hw much risk does this carry for getting Dairs/Nairs by a dropping down opponent? Things like THAT. I'm weighing those against a vague hypothetical Din's fire and I just don't see how she becomes viable as a result. Then, I also consider what other zoning characters do, and all I can think of is how she needs a HEAVILY modified moveset to suit a defensive playstyle better.

So; I'll agree she isn't conceptually broken, but I don't agree that DIn's fire makes her viable. She needs a slew of changes that're probably beyond the dev team at this point.
 

SlickWylde

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Holy crap you guys and your long posts. Ain't nobody got time for that!!
 
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