Social NintenZone Social 2.0: Remember That Time Candle Jack Visited Swa

[Fenriraga]

Every fighting game has at least a couple of balance issues obviously, perfectly balancing a game is impossible unless you have like 2 characters or something.

"In order to achieve perfect balance, the next entry in the series will only have Mario and Dr. Mario playable.
...Wait, that didn't work, ****."

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Looking at the characters who have counters most of then aren't even played competitively.

Lucario and greninja have a few players but for the most part characters with counters aren't really played at all. Hell greninja's counter barely used at all.

Says something about their strength :/

Counters have some of worst risk-reward ratio of any moves in the game. The first big thing is, they have absolutely no effect unless activated. Besides meaning they have absolutely no use outside their purpose, it means they pose no threat to you at all unless you activate them. So while someone throws out any other attack, you have to respect it to some degree and play accordingly around it. But when someone throws out a Counter, you can just stand there and punish them extremely harshly while they're stuck in their Counter helplessly (how many other moves can you repeatedly punish with a charged smash?). Then there's the fact they completely lose to grabs, and are the only moves in Smash 4 that will always lose to a grab.

And unless you're a CPU, you're not going to be able to use Counters successfully on reaction unless it's a move with over 20 frames of startup and has a telegraphed startup, and such moves are uncommon and will rarely be used by competent players in such a way that you could just counter them. So unless you're against someone overaggressive and very telegraphed with their attacks, you're not consistently landing counters without some good reads.

Then for the reward; unless you're a decently-damaged Lucario, your counter hit is going to be pretty mediocre in strength unless you counter a particularly meaty strike, which you're rarely going to get to do against a competent player. While on the other hand, each time you use a Counter you heavily risk eating a charged smash attack or getting a throw combo on you.

Counters do have situational usefulness and can get you out of a tight spot when used appropriately, but are definite "noob killers" that crumble in their usefulness even in the bottom level of competitive play.

 

[Khoru]

Every fighting game has at least a couple of balance issues obviously, perfectly balancing a game is impossible unless you have like 2 characters or something.

everyone in skullgirls is competitively viable at least
there are some characters that are a bit better than others but there's no like. mii swordfighter or melee kirby

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Counters have some of worst risk-reward ratio of any moves in the game. The first big thing is, they have absolutely no effect unless activated. Besides meaning they have absolutely no use outside their purpose, it means they pose no threat to you at all unless you activate them. So while someone throws out any other attack, you have to respect it to some degree and play accordingly around it. But when someone throws out a Counter, you can just stand there and punish them extremely harshly while they're stuck in their Counter helplessly (how many other moves can you repeatedly punish with a charged smash?). Then there's the fact they completely lose to grabs, and are the only moves in Smash 4 that will always lose to a grab.

And unless you're a CPU, you're not going to be able to use Counters successfully on reaction unless it's a move with over 20 frames of startup and has a telegraphed startup, and such moves are uncommon and will rarely be used by competent players in such a way that you could just counter them. So unless you're against someone overaggressive and very telegraphed with their attacks, you're not consistently landing counters without some good reads.

Then for the reward; unless you're a decently-damaged Lucario, your counter hit is going to be pretty mediocre in strength unless you counter a particularly meaty strike, which you're rarely going to get to do against a competent player. While on the other hand, each time you use a Counter you heavily risk eating a charged smash attack or getting a throw combo on you.

Counters do have situational usefulness and can get you out of a tight spot when used appropriately, but are definite "noob killers" that crumble in their usefulness even in the bottom level of competitive play.

I want babies with this beautiful post

 

[Das Koopa]

http://www.twitch.tv/showdownsmash
http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp

Both Melee streams for Losers bracket of Top 16.

http://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator

For Smash 4 Top 8 after the Top 16 in Melee is over.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Not really related but it find it weird that when you spam counters on low level CPUs you get punished but the high level ones are so aggressive that spamming counter works fine.

 

[SuperSegaSonicSS]

Lol at Federation Force hate. Just lol.

This is literally all I will ever have to say on the matter.

Ok, as much as I feel for the fans that wanted something like the traditional Prime motif and stuff, I seriously still laughed my ass off to this.

 

[Solfiner]

everyone in skullgirls is competitively viable at least
there are some characters that are a bit better than others but there's no like. mii swordfighter or melee kirby

Yeah, there are definitely games that come pretty close, but there is no such thing as "perfect balance" since there will always be bad match-ups etc.

Also, Smash 4 is indeed well-balanced enough, considering how many characters are seen in tournament play.

 

[Coricus]

OK, big question here.

What do you all think would be the perfect lineup of launch titles for a Nintendo system?

Not "what will they launch with", but "what would they launch with in a perfect world."

I'm curious as to what Nintendo fans would really like to see, and what would tempt them into a Day 1 console purchase.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

II've given reasons, counters are considerably stronger than previous games, and with the rage mechanic, they can easily earn a kill with little effort.

Unless you're playing brain dead and throw out smashes without consideration, counters are not going to "easily earn a kill with little effort". Using Counters on the other hand, will make you easily dead as I covered above.

And don't you think it's absurd that Roy has moves that can KO much more quickly than Ike despite being like 3x as fast and having better air game?

What, the only move of Roy's that is stronger than Ike's equivalent is Flare Blade, and better air game? Roy's air game is terrible, while Ike has pretty damn good aerials.

Can these issues be dealt with? Ofc. However, does that make the game properly balanced? No, I don't see how my statements are in any way wrong when I'm dealing with facts.

Yet you spout some very nonfactual information.

I'm not saying "OMG, THIS IS OP, PLS NERF" I'm saying, "these elements are holding the game back from being more enjoyable because proper thought was not put in when defining certain mechanics. It's not fun to slip up, and lose a match when you were far in the lead due to a well placed counter. I know Sakurai did this to raise the skill floor, but it does take away from the enjoyment.

Don't throw smash attacks out like an idiot and learn some basic baiting, and you won't be dying to counters.

Losing a stock at 30% because someone caught you in a skilled combo is fine, but losing a stock at 30% because someone predicted a combo starter or a poke and pressed down b is absurd.

No, you simply played bad, got read, and died. It's all on you

Can these things be dealt with? Yes. But it's not enjoyable to always be aware of cheap tactics players can exploit to earn easy KOs that take little skill.

You expect to be taken seriously, yet nonironically use "cheap".

 

[Solfiner]

OK, big question here.

What do you all think would be the perfect lineup of launch titles for a Nintendo system?

Not "what will they launch with", but "what would they launch with in a perfect world."

I'm curious as to what Nintendo fans would really like to see, and what would tempt them into a Day 1 console purchase.

For me personally, I'd say Pikmin 4 and a new 3D Mario.

 

[Khoru]

OK, big question here.

What do you all think would be the perfect lineup of launch titles for a Nintendo system?

Not "what will they launch with", but "what would they launch with in a perfect world."

I'm curious as to what Nintendo fans would really like to see, and what would tempt them into a Day 1 console purchase.

• meme run 2

 

[Deleted member]

When did I once say it had to be a competitive fighter lol, I just said it's definitely balanced

If it was "definitely balanced" then it would be a competitive fighter. And let's not open that can of worms please.

Federation Force doesn't look like the Metroid I was waiting for but this whole "writing it off as garbage" thing people are doing makes zero sense to me. When the game is actually out and we actually have a full concept of what the game is like you can make judgments, but even then you could just...not play the game and wait to see what happens further in the series instead of assuming that one spinoff means the entire series is torched. Just because we haven't heard explicit news of a work on a mainline Metroid title also doesn't mean nothing is being worked on.

It's just very bizarre to me the amount of effort people are investing into hating something we know so little about right now. I was really disappointed at the initial announcement especially since Other M was such a huge letdown for me, but it's been 3+ months and like...I dunno, isn't it exhausting to be so actively angry about something that trivial? Or maybe that's just me.

People have a right to dislike things and write them off as garbage just as much as you have a right to like things that others dislike.

People have different tastes. Why is it so hard to understand that people are upset that a game series that's built around a dark and serious tone and atmosphere has suddenly had a shift toward a more child-friendly tone?

Metroid is based around Alien. When Metroid starts deviating from what made it uniwue, then it stops being Metroid no matter how much you try to call it that.

First of all, my point on some problems being the player's fault is still true, and unless it was a fully charged Flare Blade or Warlock Punch thing, you shouldn't be dying to counters at 30%. The earliest the strongest counter can kill by countering a poke-ish thing is about 60%, this is clearly you're fault

Prime Pinball was positively received, and it didn't get any backlash. Though that's because we weren't in a drought

Shoulda recorded the match, but I lost a stock just this morning when a Roy player countered a finishing Utilt as Rosa cause he hit me with the base of the blade and had Rage. I was at around 35% he was at around 150%. We were at the middle of the stage. He jumped toward me and I expected a Nair or a Dair, and was gonna finish him off with a Utilt since the hitboxes make good AA and I coulf set him up for a Uair finisher, instead he surprised me with a counter, hit me just right, and earned a KO despite being in the middle of the stage.

It's pretty frustrating to literally be a move away from certain victory only to have it snatched away due to a broken expoit. Losing a stock at 35% is crazy.

Is it fair? Well, I'm playing "the most OP character of them all" so I have little room to talk, but that doesn't make the game properly balanced.

My point is, you're replacing genuine skill by adding a bunch of elements that allow for a more level playing field. It's not as extreme as Brawl, but the same methodology is still there, just added in a more inconspicuous way.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

OK, big question here.

What do you all think would be the perfect lineup of launch titles for a Nintendo system?

Not "what will they launch with", but "what would they launch with in a perfect world."

I'm curious as to what Nintendo fans would really like to see, and what would tempt them into a Day 1 console purchase.

Metroid Prime, Smash and a Zelda game, though third party support wouldn't hurt at all

• meme run 2

How that ever became a success baffles me. Con0rrrr bought it, so we'll blame him if Meme Run 2 ever happens

 

[Z25]

Frankly I don't think federation force will be bad.
It's going to get complaints either way though.

BlueX I played your level. It is pretty easy as you said. For a creativity boost? If you add more blocks or structures you could flesh out the castle look a bit more. Add in a few enemies, items and it could made into a very good castle level. It doesn't need to be filled with content but if more spaced was used, I am sure you can expand it into a really nice level. Even if it still stayed simple, simple isn't bad.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

If it was "definitely balanced" then it would be a competitive fighter. And let's not open that can of worms please.


People have a right to dislike things and write them off as garbage just as much as you have a right to like things that others dislike.

People have different tastes. Why is it so hard to understand that people are upset that a game series that's built around a dark and serious tone and atmosphere has suddenly had a shift toward a more child-friendly tone?

Metroid is based around Alien. When Metroid starts deviating from what made it uniwue, then it stops being Metroid no matter how much you try to call it that.


Shoulda recorded the match, but I lost a stock just this morning when a Roy player countered a finishing Utilt as Rosa cause he hit me with the base of the blade and had Rage. I was at around 35% he was at around 150%. We were at the middle of the stage. He jumped toward me and I expected a Nair or a Dair, and was gonna finish him off with a Utilt since the hitboxes make good AA and I coulf set him up for a Uair finisher, instead he surprised me with a counter, hit me just right, and earned a KO despite being in the middle of the stage.

It's pretty frustrating to literally be a move away from certain victory only to have it snatched away due to a broken expoit. Losing a stock at 35% is crazy.

Is it fair? Well, I'm playing "the most OP character of them all" so I have little room to talk, but that doesn't make the game properly balanced.

My point is, you're replacing genuine skill by adding a bunch of elements that allow for a more level playing field. It's not as extreme as Brawl, but the same methodology is still there, just added in a more inconspicuous way.

Rosalina's stupidly light, not to mention I call bull****. No one losing that spectacularly wouldn't share it only to spread salt

 

[A Distant Demon]

"Countering is just a cheap tactic to make weak players stronger"

 

[Champ Gold]

OK, big question here.

What do you all think would be the perfect lineup of launch titles for a Nintendo system?

Not "what will they launch with", but "what would they launch with in a perfect world."

I'm curious as to what Nintendo fans would really like to see, and what would tempt them into a Day 1 console purchase.

Want me to be perfectly serious. Try this:

I need a fun single player experience that can give joy within so many hours and have major replayablity, so

Super Mario game in the same vein as 64/Galaxy
Donkey Kong Country
console Fire Emblem game
2D Metroid game

Next I some of that multiplayer for friends and family so:
Smash Bros
Mario Kart
F-Zero GX HD

And last that perfect dream game:

Spoiler

Fire Emblem Warriors

 

[Bedoop]

You expect to be taken seriously, yet nonironically use "cheap".

Well, like they always say...
Talk is cheap.

 

[BlueX]

Frankly I don't think federation force will be bad.
It's going to get complaints either way though.

BlueX I played your level. It is pretty easy as you said. For a creativity boost? If you add more blocks or structures you could flesh out the castle look a bit more. Add in a few enemies, items and it could made into a very good castle level. It doesn't need to be filled with content but if more spaced was used, I am sure you can expand it into a really nice level. Even if it still stayed simple, simple isn't bad.

Thank you for the advice.

I hope i can improve my stages in the future.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Spoiler

Fire Emblem Warriors

I think I came from that amazing idea

"Countering is just a cheap tactic to make weak players stronger"

Even if it was true, the best part is that strong players and weak players gain the same benefits

 

[Luigi The President]

OK, big question here.

What do you all think would be the perfect lineup of launch titles for a Nintendo system?

Not "what will they launch with", but "what would they launch with in a perfect world."

I'm curious as to what Nintendo fans would really like to see, and what would tempt them into a Day 1 console purchase.

First, our Mario fill.
-Mainline Mario game
-Mario Kart
-Mario Sports title
-Paper Mario (with TTYD/64 gameplay)

-Mainline Zelda
-Mainline Metroid
-2 Kirby games, one with a big gimmick and one a normal Kirby.
-New F-Zero

-A LOT OF 3RD PARTY SUPPORT.
-New Phoenix Wright?
-Megaman
-Street Fighter
-Generally just a LOT of support.

-Banjo Kazooie
-A lot of indies

 

[Z25]

Thank you for the advice.

I hope i can improve my stages in the future.

Your welcome, I look forward to seeing what you create

Also guys, here is my last ballot vote

 

[Fenriraga]

>Sees Game and Watch Yoshi

I don't know what I was expecting.

BUT THAT DUCK HUNT YOSHI THO.

 

[Bedoop]

I think I came from that amazing idea

Uh...
That's not weird at all.
Subject change...?

 

[Con0rrrr]

Metroid Prime, Smash and a Zelda game, though third party support wouldn't hurt at all

How that ever became a success baffles me. Con0rrrr bought it, so we'll blame him if Meme Run 2 ever happens

I still hate that of all my content, THAT blew up. It was such a **** video.

Thankfully my Destiny content has begun to surpass it, but jesus. My comment feed for my channel is filled with "You're not dank enough" or "You can't handle the memes"

 

[Ivander]

And last that perfect dream game:

Spoiler

Fire Emblem Warriors

To be honest, I actually expected that to happen first before Hyrule Warriors. Here's hoping there are some FE fans at Koei Tecmo wanting to make this dream a reality.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Uh...
That's not weird at all.
Subject change...?

Rivals of Aether, yay or nay? Looks pretty damn fun, better watch material than Melee imo

 

[Deleted member]

Rosalina's stupidly light, not to mention I call bull****. No one losing that spectacularly wouldn't share it only to spread salt

Call bull**** all you want, but uploading matches to youtube is such a hassle and takes so long that I just don't bother anymore.

You're free to watch me get wrecked as Ike as well as some of my first matches as Rosa since I'm still learning her. I need to work more on my neutral game, but I quite like her style.

https://youtu.be/06GO3OTZo1k
https://youtu.be/Cijs35RDU4U
https://youtu.be/buhnrKasMHY

The only three videos I've uploaded since I only upload for the sake of analysis from other players since it's such a hassle to do so.

And yeah, Rosa is stupidly like, hence why a well placed counter can earn such a ridiculous kill if rage is activated.

Again, my entire point is that counters have increased in kill potential compared to previous games. I used to play Marth in Melee, and earning a counter KO was an accomplishment. Now it's so stupid easy, even a monkey could do it. How is this even an argument?

 

[Z25]

>Sees Game and Watch Yoshi

I don't know what I was expecting.

BUT THAT DUCK HUNT YOSHI THO.

Duck hunt is amazing! Glad I'm getting this game, R.O.B.'s looks very emo....

To be honest, I actually expected that to happen first before Hyrule Warriors. Here's hoping there are some FE fans at Koei Tecmo wanting to make this dream a reality.

I am really surprised FE warriors is not a thing. I hope it becomes one though.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Call bull**** all you want, but uploading matches to youtube is such a hassle and takes so long that I just don't bother anymore.

You're free to watch me get wrecked as Ike as well as some of my first matches as Rosa since I'm still learning her. I need to work more on my neutral game, but I quite like her style.

https://youtu.be/06GO3OTZo1k
https://youtu.be/Cijs35RDU4U
https://youtu.be/buhnrKasMHY

The only three videos I've uploaded since I only upload for the sake of analysis from other players since it's such a hassle to do so.

And yeah, Rosa is stupidly like, hence why a well placed counter can earn such a ridiculous kill if rage is activated.

Again, my entire point is that counters have increased in kill potential compared to previous games. I used to play Marth in Melee, and earning a counter KO was an accomplishment. Now it's so stupid easy, even a monkey could do it. How is this even an argument?

That last rant went down the poopy simply because you're example was with a fixed amount of damage and knockback. ROY'S had the multiplier

 

[FalKoopa]

I think I came from that amazing idea

How are you going to react to this then?

Ah,

 

[Champ Gold]

I think I came from that amazing idea

Even if it was true, the best part is that strong players and weak players gain the same benefits

Clean yourself up.

To be honest, I actually expected that to happen first before Hyrule Warriors. Here's hoping there are some FE fans at Koei Tecmo wanting to make this dream a reality.

After how successful HW was this would be the next logical step

 

[Chrono.]

Kid Icarus Uprising sequel developed by Treasure supervised by Sakurai.

Make it happen Nintendo.

 

[Deleted member]

OK, big question here.

What do you all think would be the perfect lineup of launch titles for a Nintendo system?

Not "what will they launch with", but "what would they launch with in a perfect world."

I'm curious as to what Nintendo fans would really like to see, and what would tempt them into a Day 1 console purchase.

New 3D Mario Platformer
Super Mario Maker 2
Mario Kart 9
New Paper Mario
New Mainline Zelda
Metroid 5 (as in a new 2D Metroid)
Metroid Prime 4
New Console Fire Emblem
Star Fox Zero 2 (another potential double zero pun for Rate Their Chances)
F-Zero NX
Pikmin 4
Xenoblade Chronicles XX
The Last Story 2
The Wonderful 101-2
Splatoon 2
Super Smash Bros. 5
All of the third party support one could ask for (or at least the third party games and franchises I personally care about).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

How are you going to react to this then?

Ah,

You tried to be first, that counts! Not legit/no Anna wouldn't even try to seduce

 

[A Distant Demon]

Counter argument is getting heated . . . may be time to drop that

Kid Icarus Uprising sequel developed by Treasure supervised by Sakurai.

Make it happen Nintendo.

I really need to play S+P

 

[Arcanir]

None of which would be an issue if Nintendo was actually working on a genuine Metroid game alongside the spinoff. But instead, Dread and other projects have been cancelled, and the first news we get is FF. And adding fuel to the fire, no Metroid is being worked on for NX either.

Not saying I agree with the petition, I'll simply vote with my wallet, but I can understand why fans are outraged.

I'm not going to pretend that it would've been nice to have a full-fledged Metroid game beforehand and its reveal could've been better timing-wise, but there's a limit to where the outrage is justified. We're at a point where it's unnecessarily vitriolic as the game is being bashed just for existing at this point rather then for potential flaws such as poor timing, and even so, there are much better ways to express that disappointment then the way certain fans have been doing for the past few months.

If they choose not to buy it, then that's their choice, but things like the petition are just not good ways to handle their disappointment.

People have a right to dislike things and write them off as garbage just as much as you have a right to like things that others dislike.

People have different tastes. Why is it so hard to understand that people are upset that a game series that's built around a dark and serious tone and atmosphere has suddenly had a shift toward a more child-friendly tone?

Metroid is based around Alien. When Metroid starts deviating from what made it uniwue, then it stops being Metroid no matter how much you try to call it that.

Alien also had things like a kids toyline, so even that series could be a bit child-friendly.

Ignoring that, that also assumes that Federation Force will certainly have no serious or dark moments, which we know little about the game to say for certain otherwise. Remember that while Wind Waker had a different artstyle for instance, it still had moments of seriousness such as Aryll's kidnapping, Ganondorf's final moments, and Hyrule being buried underwater, so there's nothing saying that darker elements can't exist in Federation Force. We don't know enough to say it'll be completely childish, if childish at all, the game could have a lot more dark elements to it then we're seeing and we won't know until the full gameplay is released.

 

[Solfiner]

Xenoblade Chronicles XX

And then they go the Eroge route and call the 4th game Xenoblade XXX

 

[Cutie Gwen]

And then they go the Eroge route and call the 4th game Xenoblade XXX

I guess Shulk would be really feeling it then. He's got a thing for robots, so Fiora confirmed