Social NintenZone Social 2.0: Remember That Time Candle Jack Visited Swa

[Chandeelure]

Push, do you think the results of the most wanted DLC characters in Japan will be ready before October?

 

[PushDustIn]

This honestly doesn't change my opinion. These things aren't as rigid as that. Something like a third of the current 8 player stages only got implemented after the game was already released. This entire mode was clearly on the backburner for almost the entirety of development.

Yeah, I could see it being out on the backburner for most of development. It wasn't even announced until just before release (I remember posting the 1-8P icons), and there wasn't any major build up to it. Sure they announced 8 alts, but they didn't really hype the mode directly until that last Smash Direct before Wii U's release.

The update that added more 8 player stages was also really small. I believe it only altered the coding of the stages (it seems mainly disabling stuff), no additional assets AFAIK.

Push, do you think the results of the most wanted DLC characters in Japan will be ready before October?

Working on it all day, as soon as I wake up. Hoping to release it by the end of the 13th.

 

[Soul.]

I don't know, I think having exclusive characters is a bad idea. Wii U gets ICs, 3DS gets....?
I can think of nothing. I miss their chain grabs too but eh.

 

[Opossum]

Three Megas? Klefki, Ursaring, Castform.




Also, I hate the whole "solo Ice Climbers would ruin their gimmick and remove the reason people had for playing them" thing. Really though, no. I didn't play the Ice Climbers in Melee and Brawl because of the duo mechanic, but because I just liked them as characters. Not everyone plays a character for a playstyle; people can have other reasons.

Not to mention the fact that the duo mechanic was basically made up for Smash. The multiplayer in Ice Climber isn't based on cooperative completion, but competition. It's a fight to see who gets to the top first. So, honestly, a Solo Popo would be better at showing what Ice Climber was all about. And the playstyle itself wouldn't be changed in a bad way either, really. Popo wouldn't be crippled. Make Solo Popo's moves as strong as they used to be with Nana attached. Make four of his costumes Nana alts. The only real change needed would be the recovery, but even then, that's one special move. Climbing hook grapple or calling in the Condor would be fine. What else would it remove? Chain grabbing. You know, the thing people wanted gone anyway.

Solo Popo would be the way to go, in my opinion. This is coming from someone who used the Ice Climbers quite often when they were on the roster.

 

[SegaNintendoUbisoft]

Welp. This could be good or bad depending on how you look at it. Hopefully the new direction they claim to be making for the next Mario game really works out for them.

Really interested to see what this "new direction" is.

 

[Chandeelure]

Three Megas? Klefki, Ursaring, Castform.




Also, I hate the whole "solo Ice Climbers would ruin their gimmick and remove the reason people had for playing them" thing. Really though, no. I didn't play the Ice Climbers in Melee and Brawl because of the duo mechanic, but because I just liked them as characters. Not everyone plays a character for a playstyle; people can have other reasons.

Not to mention the fact that the duo mechanic was basically made up for Smash. The multiplayer in Ice Climber isn't based on cooperative completion, but competition. It's a fight to see who gets to the top first. So, honestly, a Solo Popo would be better at showing what Ice Climber was all about. And the playstyle itself wouldn't be changed in a bad way either, really. Popo wouldn't be crippled. Make Solo Popo's moves as strong as they used to be with Nana attached. Make four of his costumes Nana alts. The only real change needed would be the recovery, but even then, that's one special move. Climbing hook grapple or calling in the Condor would be fine. What else would it remove? Chain grabbing. You know, the thing people wanted gone anyway.

Solo Popo would be the way to go, in my opinion. This is coming from someone who used the Ice Climbers quite often when they were on the roster.

I completely agree with you.
Their mechanic didn't even make sense, and people play as the characters because they like the character, not just because they have a cool moveset/mechanic.

 

[Opossum]

I don't know, I think having exclusive characters is a bad idea. Wii U gets ICs, 3DS gets....?
I can think of nothing. I miss their chain grabs too but eh.

Portability. I just think the whole cross system "fairness" is asinine when there isn't even crossplay...just my opinion.

 

[KenboCalrissian]

Yeah, I could see it being out on the backburner for most of development. It wasn't even announced until just before release (I remember posting the 1-8P icons), and there wasn't any major build up to it. Sure they announced 8 alts, but they didn't really hype the mode directly until that last Smash Direct before Wii U's release.

The update that added more 8 player stages was also really small. I believe it only altered the coding of the stages (it seems mainly disabling stuff), no additional assets AFAIK.


Working on it all day, as soon as I wake up. Hoping to release it by the end of the 13th.

I agree, @vaanrose could be onto something. As a software developer, I see this kind of thing all the time - our project management team has a ton of ideas, often years in advance, but there's a huge gap between concept and development - namely, prioritization.

It's entirely conceivable that 8-player Smash could have been labeled a "Nice-to-have." Then, after they made the call to cut IC, I'm sure upper-management would have asked them what they intended to do with the hours they had budgeted for them but hadn't spent yet. That's when you pull in a "nice-to-have" - when you have budget to spare to add value to your product.

If this is what happened, then we might actually be able to estimate how far along ICs were before they were cut, and when that call was made! At that point in time, they would have gone through their backlog of nice-to-haves and found one that fit into their budget. In other words, they already had an estimate of how long 8-Player Smash would have taken to complete, which means it's very likely that (Hours to complete Ice Climbers) - (Hours to complete 8-Player Smash) = (Hours of effort actually put into getting Ice Climbers to work). We could then extrapolate that onto a timeline and get a rough idea of when they halted development on them.

But then, this leads us back to the most obvious question... why were they cut? Are we back to 3DS limitations being the sole cause, or is there more to it? If we accept the above, then it couldn't have been time constraints because we're assuming they had time to spare to add in 8-Player Smash.

 

[Soul.]

Portability. I just think the whole cross system "fairness" is asinine when there isn't even crossplay...just my opinion.

SoPo could indeed solve the problem, but even then I doubt they'd put the character as that.
Also don't count me on this one, but haven't most people said 3DS owners would be missing out because of exclusive characters on Wii U?

 

[Strofirko]

SoPo would be the same as developing an entire new character though.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

Not to mention the fact that the duo mechanic was basically made up for Smash.

It was "made up" for Smash because that is what the ICs had to offer that made them more unique than the other potential NES characters. Without it, Popo is an extremely basic character that offers extremely little with little outside Smash popularity/notoriety, and wouldn't have gotten into Smash in the first place if they didn't have the gimmick.

And the playstyle itself wouldn't be changed in a bad way either, really. Popo wouldn't be crippled. Make Solo Popo's moves as strong as they used to be with Nana attached. Make four of his costumes Nana alts. The only real change needed would be the recovery, but even then, that's one special move. Climbing hook grapple or calling in the Condor would be fine.

"Oh just makes Popo's moves stronger"

It isn't that simple, you'll have to overhaul the character's entire design and moveset, it was all built and balanced around the 2-in-1 gimmick. Nevermind again that SoPo has the most boring moveset around with no playstyle quirks to make it a worthwhile endeavor.

What else would it remove? Chain grabbing. You know, the thing people wanted gone anyway

Except Smash 4 mechanic changes already eliminated chain grabbing so they wouldn't have it either way.

 

[ThePenguinGamer0]

For anyone that wasn't awake 3 o'clock in the morning last night, I'm back!

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

It was "made up" for Smash because that is what the ICs had to offer that made them more unique than the other potential NES characters. Without it, Popo is an extremely basic character that offers extremely little with little outside Smash popularity/notoriety, and wouldn't have gotten into Smash in the first place if they didn't have the gimmick.



"Oh just makes Popo's moves stronger"

It isn't that simple, you'll have to overhaul the character's entire design and moveset, it was all built and balanced around the 2-in-1 gimmick. Nevermind again that SoPo has the most boring moveset around with no playstyle quirks to make it a worthwhile endeavor.



Except Smash 4 mechanic changes already eliminated chain grabbing so they wouldn't have it either way.

If Popo was added by himself in Melee he'd be the first character to fight with a hammer and have ice powers; that's pretty unique.

 

[Champ Gold]

If Popo was added by himself in Melee he'd be the first character to fight with a hammer and have ice powers; that's pretty unique.

Thing is he is the ONLY Ice fighter in the series. That's what make them unique that no one has that style or ability.

Lucas only has a PK Freeze and that's it. Ice Climber(s) are all ice powers from the get go.

 

[ThePenguinGamer0]

Welp. This could be good or bad depending on how you look at it. Hopefully the new direction they claim to be making for the next Mario game really works out for them.

Hasn't Mario always been going in a "new direction"?

This isn't the most surprising thing.

 

[Opossum]

It was "made up" for Smash because that is what the ICs had to offer that made them more unique than the other potential NES characters. Without it, Popo is an extremely basic character that offers extremely little with little outside Smash popularity/notoriety, and wouldn't have gotten into Smash in the first place if they didn't have the gimmick.

The Ice Climbers were in Smash due to the gimmick. So was Sheik, really. Zelda's whole shtick was the transformation between herself and Sheik. 3DS limitations caused them to separate, so really...what does Sheik have that makes her so unique now? She just has a versatile moveset. You don't need to be "oh wow, this is one-of-a-kind unique!" to get into Smash. Compare someone like Rosalina to someone like Wii Fit Trainer or Greninja, who debuted in the same game.

"Oh just makes Popo's moves stronger"

It isn't that simple, you'll have to overhaul the character's entire design and moveset, it was all built and balanced around the 2-in-1 gimmick. Nevermind again that SoPo has the most boring moveset around with no playstyle quirks to make it a worthwhile endeavor.

It's literally keeping the same damage output while removing the second model. Is it really that hard? Also, nice opinion in that last part. Once again, not every damn fighter has to have an outstandingly interesting gimmick. Most of the Original 12 and Melee characters have fairly basic sets. Not everyone's an Olimar, Rosalina, or Shulk. The fact that they're the only characters on the roster with Ice attacks actually makes them fairly more unique than many.

Except Smash 4 mechanic changes already eliminated chain grabbing so they wouldn't have it either way.

Even better. Sure, you could do without the condescending tone, but still. Though, since Nana was a separate model, we can't know for sure whether chain grabbing would have been possible for her.

 

[Z25]

Honestly, If sakurai and his team can make 3 characters in maybe 6 months tops from the looks of things anyway; then I honestly don't think solo popo would be hard. Imo, it's entirely worth it and he would sell.

 

[TheAnvil]

The Wii U version owes the 3DS version nothing. Console versions are by their very nature superior to handhelds. Portability is the main selling factor for the 3DS version, if it had a few characters less than the Wii U version, then so be it.

Sakurai did nobody any favours by giving the Wii U an arbitrary limit because the handheld couldn't keep up.

Why should Wii U owners be subjected to a solo Ice Climber because of a completely different system? Give the Wii U the Ice Climbers, screw the 3DS version.

 

[Strofirko]

The one who made the task of 3DS/WIIU versions was Iwata though,and he asked that for be profitable,not a half-ass work port,there is no "ifs" or "buts" when your boss asks for something.

 

[Z25]

The Wii U version owes the 3DS version nothing. Console versions are by their very nature superior to handhelds. Portability is the main selling factor for the 3DS version, if it had a few characters less than the Wii U version, then so be it.

Sakurai did nobody any favours by giving the Wii U an arbitrary limit because the handheld couldn't keep up.

Why should Wii U owners be subjected to a solo Ice Climber because of a completely different system? Give the Wii U the Ice Climbers, screw the 3DS version.

i can agree completely. One exclusive DLC character wouldn't be that bad.I think people should realize, that it could be a very good move, even if they were free. Which they probably wouldn't be, but they would probably be discounted.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

The Ice Climbers were in Smash due to the gimmick. So was Sheik, really. Zelda's whole shtick was the transformation between herself and Sheik. 3DS limitations caused them to separate, so really...what does Sheik have that makes her so unique now? She just has a versatile moveset. You don't need to be "oh wow, this is one-of-a-kind unique!" to get into Smash. Compare someone like Rosalina to someone like Wii Fit Trainer or Greninja, who debuted in the same game.

You don't need "one-of-a-kind" unique, yeah, but the character needs to offer more than the bare basics. And the comparison to Zelda/Sheik is flawed, when they both operated just fine as separate characters and that's how 95+% of people preferred playing them anyway.

It's literally keeping the same damage output while removing the second model. Is it really that hard?

You don't seem to really understand the ICs if you think "just double their damage output" would make a balanced fighter. Everything about the Ice Climbers was specifically tailored to and balanced around the gimmick, just "doubling their damage" would do a terrible job at rebalancing a hypothetical SoPo.

Also, nice opinion in that last part. Once again, not every damn fighter has to have an outstandingly interesting gimmick. Most of the Original 12 and Melee characters have fairly basic sets. Not everyone's an Olimar, Rosalina, or Shulk. The fact that they're the only characters on the roster with Ice attacks actually makes them fairly more unique than many.

Opinion? Sure, but how many people are going to dispute the ICs having one of the most boring movesets with the gimmick removed? And the ICs' "ice attacks" are hardly a unique factor when they barely factor into their game, only having two moves that actually utilise ice and the ice effect itself having no gameplay effect the vast majority of the time.

Though, since Nana was a separate model, we can't know for sure whether chain grabbing would have been possible for her.

Yes we can, a new mechanic was introduced specifically to remove chain grabbing, the ICs would not have kept the ability to if they made it into the game.

 

[Geno Boost]

Welp. This could be good or bad depending on how you look at it. Hopefully the new direction they claim to be making for the next Mario game really works out for them.

I will die happily if it turned out to be SMRPG2 but sadly it may never happen (unless if square stick more with Nintendo like the SNES days)
Just look at this, it looks like something that was made by Nintendo ;-;

 

[Deleted member]

The rosters are going to always be the same between versions, so no exclusive IC for Wii U
Sakurai isn't going to change their moveset to make them fit in the 3DS version because that would defeat the whole poimt of having Ice Climbers
There is NOT going to be playable IC in this Smash. End of story.

 

[Soul.]

"Screw the 3DS version" is saying **** you to a huge install base lol.
One character isn't going to make others buy a Wii U.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I want Sopo in smash just to humble you guys.

 

[Deleted member]

The fact that they're the only characters on the roster with Ice attacks actually makes them fairly more unique than many.

Thing is he is the ONLY Ice fighter in the series. That's what make them unique that no one has that style or ability.

Lucas only has a PK Freeze and that's it. Ice Climber(s) are all ice powers from the get go.

I'm staying out of this argument, but I want to point out that the Ice Climbers had only two Ice-based attacks in their entire moveset excluding their Final Smash.
Literally everything else was hammer-based or the Belay.

 

[Opossum]

You don't need "one-of-a-kind" unique, yeah, but the character needs to offer more than the bare basics. And the comparison to Zelda/Sheik is flawed, when they both operated just fine as separate characters and that's how 95+% of people preferred playing them anyway.

They were still built entirely around a gimmick which is no longer there.

You don't seem to really understand the ICs if you think "just double their damage output" would make a balanced fighter. Everything about the Ice Climbers was specifically tailored to and balanced around the gimmick, just "doubling their damage" would do a terrible job at rebalancing a hypothetical SoPo.

Obviously it'd be a bit more than doubling the damage. Weight would also be affected, as well as some other things. Tell me this, though. If, functionally, the Solo Popo did everything the same as when he was part of a duo, minus the recovery, what would need to be rebalanced? Without a concrete set of what would need to be adjusted, it's just a baseless claim to keep them from the roster.

Opinion? Sure, but how many people are going to dispute the ICs having one of the most boring movesets with the gimmick removed? And the ICs' "ice attacks" are hardly a unique factor when they barely factor into their game, only having two moves that actually utilise ice and the ice effect itself having no gameplay effect the vast majority of the time.

Once again, boring is subjective. I don't think the set is boring. I'm sure others don't as well. It's subjective. Aesthetics do matter, on the ice thing. It was basically the only reason Roy was chosen over other potential Marth clones in Melee. Plus giving some additional moves some icy flair isn't out of the question.

Yes we can, a new mechanic was introduced specifically to remove chain grabbing, the ICs would not have kept the ability to if they made it into the game.

Legitimate question: does the new mechanic stop a partner from immediately grabbing an opponent after you do in a Team Battle?

 

[Deleted member]

I wonder how different things would have been if Sakurai choosed Balloon Fighter/Excitebiker/Urban Champion/Bubbles instead of the Ice Climbers back in Melee.......

 

[Omega Tyrant]

I'm staying out of this argument, but I want to point out that the Ice Climbers had only two Ice-based attacks in their entire moveset excluding their Final Smash.
Literally everything else was hammer-based or the Belay.

Yeah, Ice Climbers "being an ice fighter" really isn't a good argument for them. If they could rehaul a hypothetical SoPo moveset to actually be an "ice fighter", sure I could see some actual gameplay value in him then, but at that point you're essentially making a new character and one that wouldn't appeal to most people who previously mained the ICs.

 

[Z25]

I wonder how different things would have been if Sakurai choosed Balloon Fighter/Excitebiker/Urban Champion/Bubbles instead of the Ice Climbers back in Melee.......

Any of them would probably still be in this roster. Don't know if they all would have as big of popularity as the IC's though.

 

[Deleted member]

Remember how Captain Falcon was added as a fire fighter?
And how Pikachu was added as an electric fighter?
Yeah, neither do I

 

[Arcanir]

The one who made the task of 3DS/WIIU versions was Iwata though,and he asked that for be profitable,not a half-*** work port,there is no "ifs" or "buts" when your boss asks for something.

Actually, Iwata offered him the option to do one or the other, Sakurai was the one who wanted both.

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/news/26712/sakurai-insisted-on-smash-bros-for-both-wii-u-and-3ds

 

[Deleted member]

If Sakurai doesn't want to overhaul Ganondorf, then there's no way that he would want to overhaul the Ice Climbers.

That is all i have to say.

 

[Captain Fun]

The Wii U version owes the 3DS version nothing. Console versions are by their very nature superior to handhelds.

Better in many ways, sure. Better graphics, more memory etc., but it looks really cheap to have a character cut because one system didn't have the processing power to actually have them.

There's no doubt that the 3DS version held the Wii U version back, but if they had cut something as major as characters in the 3DS game (which is made to be compatible with the Wii U version) then the 3DS version likely wouldn't have performed as well as it did.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Better in many ways, sure. Better graphics, more memory etc., but it looks really cheap to have a character cut because one system didn't have the processing power to actually have them.

There's no doubt that the 3DS version held the Wii U version back, but if they had cut something as major as characters in the 3DS game (which is made to be compatible with the Wii U version) then the 3DS version likely wouldn't have performed as well as it did.

I can definetly guarantee you that one single exclusive character would not have any real impact on sales one way or another.

 

[Captain Fun]

I can definetly guarantee you that one single exclusive character would not have any real impact on sales one way or another.

Astonish me.

No really, how? If the 3DS version gets a stripped down game with a stripped down roster, it's going to look bad for both the 3DS version and the 3DS itself. The parity sucks, but it makes sense.

 

[Senselessbreak]

I still don't think the Ice Climbers could work in 8 Player Smash, and that's part of the reason they got axed. 8 Ice Climbers would make 16 Player Smash, essentially. If the Wii U can't handle Ridley/ giving Wii Fit Trainer a proper thumb with 8 players I doubt the Wii U could handle 4 extra Nanas.

I've argued against this before. Sakurai stated in the slides that 8 player smash was planned from the start. And Sakurai has stated the Icies worked on the Wii U with no issues. If they could work with 6 player smash in melee, they can work with 8 player smash on the wii u

 

[TheAnvil]

Better in many ways, sure. Better graphics, more memory etc., but it looks really cheap to have a character cut because one system didn't have the processing power to actually have them.

There's no doubt that the 3DS version held the Wii U version back, but if they had cut something as major as characters in the 3DS game (which is made to be compatible with the Wii U version) then the 3DS version likely wouldn't have performed as well as it did.

One character probably wouldn't have made a difference.

Mortal Kombat had an exclusive character on PS3, that didn't hinder Xbox 360 sales of the game, if it did, it was minimal.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Astonish me.

No really, how? If the 3DS version gets a stripped down game with a stripped down roster, it's going to look bad for both the 3DS version and the 3DS itself. The parity sucks, but it makes sense.

There already exists the concept of version-exclusive characters in different fighting games that still sold well. And one character that have a legitimate reason for being version exclusive=/= stripped down roster.

And considering that the 3DS version has much less content than the Wii U version, people who would see the 3DS version as stripped down would have done so regardless of whether the roster is the same or not. In fact, roster parity made it worse if anything.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

We should have at least gotten the Sumit stage back. It would have been better to have kept as much Ice Climber content as possible instead of trying to sweep the whole series under the rug leaving nothing but a single song.