Nicknyte talks about Luigi: The Thread - Luigi Discussion

[Nicknyte]

Okay, this is sad.

This is the LUIGI board, and there hasn't been a response in like, what, 2 weeks? Okay, thats over.

I, Nicknyte, best Luigi player in the Southwest, orders a Luigi discussion.

Seriously guys, lets gets some chat on.

Actually, something has been on my mind about when using Luigi moves.

When should you prioritize Fair, opposed to dair, or visa versa. This is a good question because, I like using dair on a ledgehop as it gives me less area to get hit, and sometimes Meteors people getting back from recovery. Slap is pretty good too, mainly over the stage, but I think its a very techable move if used on recovering people. I use dair and the slapchop when ledgehopping. What do you guys think?

 

[Winston]

Dair is better when they're below you

Fair is better when they're above you

...??

I'm not trying to be a wiseass (okay actually I am), but I honestly don't understand what's there to discuss. For the most part they have distinct times when it's obvious to use one or the other.

Ledgehop dair is obviously better for edgeguarding most trajectories, plus it's stronger. When you have the choice of using either in a combo finisher, use dair cause it's stronger.

I like mixing in SH dair to beat space animal approaches at low percent or at KO percent

 

[Wiggins]

I know when I ledgehop aerial... I'm mostly throwing out dairs. I think it's more of a habit for me now, rather than a spur-of-the-moment choice. I am starting to throw out more bairs at the appropriate times when edge guarding, though. So I guess that's a start.

But yea, what Winston said seems to be spot on with "dair for below" and "fair for above."

I actually rarely chop when I'm edge guarding. Most of the time I ledge drop and time a second jump dair because most of the time it sends up and away from the stage, unless it meteors(or spikes... whatever it does), in which case I normally get the kill.

In terms of coming back on the stage from a ledge hop, I tend to dair->nair. I normally get punished if it's shielded, but like I said, it's a habit for me now.


Here's a question: When's a good time to use upair? I'm starting to use it more and more these days, but I'm just not too sure when it is and is not a good time to use it.

Idk... Food for thought.

 

[Winston]

uair is mad good. always use it.

No seriously though, it combos everybody cause nobody DIs away.

You know how falcon players often get to tack on an extra uair in their combos because people are survival DIing the knee that they're afraid of? That's almost always the case for people once they get knocked into the air at KO percent vs. Luigi. So you can do stuff -> uair -> dair/fair almost for free.

at mid percents you can get uair -> uair -> stuff or uair -> nair -> stuff or uair -> fair -> waveland -> stuff depending on DI.

You can sh ac uair to cover a tech option on some platforms and still have time to hit the techroll

etc. etc.

uhh.. use outside of combos... in some situations you can like shark under people with wavedashes and uair pressure from below, if they're a floaty that got hit above you or they're knocked onto platforms or something; that can be legit

finally, it's a really good way to escape falcon's dthrow -> combo attempts at low percent. DI down + away + uair will beat his aerial usually

 

[Wiggins]

omg, i love you. thats **** i need to start implementing, i suppose.

I haven't had any good weegee training since Jekyll first taught me when I was a lowly scrub. :D So seeing this stuff really ****ing rocks. Thanks...


Another question: What's a good way to set up for drop cancels? I can never find myself in a position where I can use them. It's saddening because I feel like drop cancels make for some of the sexiest combos you can do with weegee. So yea, any tips on that?

 

[Pakman]

Just to chime in about Dair versus Fair. Fair gives you a better angle with less knockback. So at high percents fair should be the preferred combo finisher if you have a choice between the two against many characters. I don't have any real numbers for this but for the sake of argument lets say fair send them at a 30 degree angle and dair at a 60 degree angle but a little harder. There are plenty of occasions where fair gives you a better edge guard opportunity even though it doesn't hit as hard.

Falcon, Ganon, Samus, and Luigi are all characters whose recoveries improve when hit at the dair angle as opposed to the fair angle.

 

[Nicknyte]

Dair is better when they're below you

Fair is better when they're above you

...??

I'm not trying to be a wiseass (okay actually I am), but I honestly don't understand what's there to discuss. For the most part they have distinct times when it's obvious to use one or the other.

Ledgehop dair is obviously better for edgeguarding most trajectories, plus it's stronger. When you have the choice of using either in a combo finisher, use dair cause it's stronger.

I like mixing in SH dair to beat space animal approaches at low percent or at KO percent

Well, at least you are there. It was kinda a ******* question to begin with, but hey, stupid discussion is better than any, right?....Try to be a little more friendly tho

Everything Winston said was correct about uairs. I remember fighting Vist for the first time at Pound 5 and saw how he executed Luigi's uair over and over again. Very good for sharking. Usually, since I am always fighting heavies, on a non chaingrab route:

At 10-15% Usmash > Sliding JCed Usmash > Uair > uair > fair/dair, that's just me personally.

To your question Wiggins, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn7ZdA-dTx4

But seriously, there is a few flaws to trying to combo with drop cancelling.

1. Works well against heavies, but after awhile it is DIable. In the combo video, I notice Captain didn't even bother to DI while he was DC'd.

2. Works not so well on everyone else. They do set up sexy "combos" if you will, but only on heavies. One of the things about Luigi is that he is able to combo people well at low damages that are close to him. With a DC'ed sex kick, you might hit them too far away IMO.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I find Uair extremely annoying as Sheik.

I'm trying to space Fairs and camp and all of a sudden I trade with your foot? What the gay?

 

[Nicknyte]

You know Luigi and Sheik trained under the same Sensei, of course, sheik was determined to get strong for Good, while Luigi got good to defeat his ******** brother Mario, so Luigi was banished from the dojo, while shiek got better, but Luigi is still as strong as Sheik Trades are inevitable.

Lol Ryu and Dan.

 

[Winston]

Just to chime in about Dair versus Fair. Fair gives you a better angle with less knockback. So at high percents fair should be the preferred combo finisher if you have a choice between the two against many characters. I don't have any real numbers for this but for the sake of argument lets say fair send them at a 30 degree angle and dair at a 60 degree angle but a little harder. There are plenty of occasions where fair gives you a better edge guard opportunity even though it doesn't hit as hard.

Falcon, Ganon, Samus, and Luigi are all characters whose recoveries improve when hit at the dair angle as opposed to the fair angle.

I don't think this is true. I think it's more that people are less prepared to DI the fair optimally since it's faster to come out. Playing vs. people with really good survival DI, they go at an extremely high angle regardless of whether I use fair or dair.

Also I just tested it in training mode, and fair and dair have identical default trajectories. ~30 degrees. Try it out

 

[Pakman]

Because they DI well, is the reason you should use fair at high percents. DI does a lot, but the point is to set them up for a better edge guard. Against certain characters, the fair will set you up for a better edge guard than the dair even with good DI.

 

[Winston]

Well that's a different issue though. Your original post said that the angle was different so fair was better. The angle is the same.

it may be the case that in some matchups you want to send them less far even if the angle is the same, such as vs. Luigi. I could buy that. He's a special case though because of him getting extra chances to misfire.

Vs. Samus, I think the difference in the effect on her return trajectory is incredibly small (when it doesn't outright kill her), so I'd rather have the extra 4% I think.

Vs Falcon and Ganon, I don't think they exchange vertical for horizontal at better than a 1:1 ratio, so sending them farther along an identical trajectory (and getting 4% more damage) is good.

 

[Pakman]

The angle is not the same they hit characters off stage very differently.

Dair hits way more vertical than fair.

 

[Winston]

Can we get someone with AR in here to verify this? ( Strong Bad? Do you namesearch? >__> )

As far as I know, how trajectories work is as follows: Each move has a default trajectory, and the angle can be modified by at most + or - 17.5 degrees by DI. It works the same regardless of what character the move is hitting.

As far as I know, the CPU in training mode set on "stand" does not make any inputs. So putting the CPU at a high percent in training mode and hitting it with dair and fair will show the default trajectories. They were the same. I'm not making this up; I just did this simple test. This result matches up with my personal experience in playing vs. Falcon and Ganon players with good DI.

So how are they very different?

 

[Nicknyte]

This is a valid point here, because where you can fair, you can also dair. What I noticed is that I like using Dair because it has a shorter hitbox, and less lag than the slap. I can also shield pressure better with dair, but when it comes to the scenario : Falco at 60%, pop up vertically with sex kick, do you slap, or do you dair? I usually dair if I can hit him directly with the dair, or chop if dair is out of reach since he is above my head.

Edit:

D-Air

Total: 32
Hit: 10-14
IASA: 29
Auto cancel: <5 24>
Landlag: 18
Lcanceled: 9

F-Air

Total: 34
Hit: 7-10
IASA: 33
Auto Cancel: 20>
Landlag: 25
Lcanceled: 12

By looking at the numbers, seems like dair usually beats out the stats of Fair. Dair deals more damage, can be canceled at frame 29, opposed to frame 33 and less landing lag. Although, fair does give that nice above vertical assurance.

 

[Thoraxe]

I think Dairs can be DI'd close to like 50-60 degrees where as the chop can only be DI'd to around 40-50 degrees. It might have to do with the fact that luigi's invisible sword shoes have a downright silly hitbox, where the chop can kind of vary depending if the player is above you or horizontal to you. Oh and props to Nicknyte for reigniting the passionate flames of weegy discussion. oh and a fun fact about uairs, you can space uairs through battlefield to keep back a ravenous fox, a good shine spike **** block imo.

 

[Winston]

^ Why does nobody like turning on their gamecube for 2 minutes and testing this stuff instead of just posting whatever random theories they have? ><

 

[Wiggins]

So how about this... Let's talk about your favorite Luigi match ups.


I was talking about this a little in the Luigi Q&A thread a couple weeks ago, but lets talk about it here since this is the new cool thing you kids are doing these days.


I really enjoy the Luigi vs Ganon match up. I'm not too sure why anymore, but I've always liked it for some reason. He, like a quite a few other match ups, can be combo'd in really awesome ways at low percents. Although he has ridiculously good recovery he can be edge guarded pretty easily, in my opinion. Same thing with the CF match up, although CF is much faster and can just knee you a trillion times, he has the same base problems with recovery like Ganon does. I do think CF can be gimped alot easier than Ganon, but that may be common knowledge. idk.

 

[Winston]

Hmm... I hardly like any of the matchups... which is why I quit Luigi probably >__>

Though I'm pretty tempted to pick him back up

Anyway I like CF a lot better than Ganon because you can actually directly challenge his spammable moves sometimes, unlike Ganon's fair.

Also because you can actually combo CF, whereas Ganon gets out most of Luigi's nonsense for some reason. It seems like Ganon would be a great target for combos because of his size but for whatever reason I've found it isnt the case so much if they DI away + jump out of stuff. You usually get a couple hits, without potential for something huge, which isn't all that meaningful since he has so many 'hit points' so to speak. So it ends up being more attritiony vs. Ganon, with your 2-3 hit combos doing the same relative damage as his single fair hit. I also feel like his post-combo followup pressure isn't as good on Ganon as vs. others cause his moves are so big, but I could be wrong about this.

One of the best ways to combo Ganon actually is to just WD ftilt him across the stage after he gets to mid-high percents cause this will push him to the edge of the stage and maybe set up for an edgeguard directly, even if it doesnt do that much damage.

on CF you can force techchases even if you can't true combo him with good DI, so you have way more chances to follow up. There's also a variety of position and percent dependent fthrow/bthrow -> ftilt gimps that I haven't worked out but I think have good potential.

Their recoveries are both pretty edgeguardable and stuff, though sometimes its frustrating as your moves don't actually kill ganondorf even if you intercept his recovery. (both dair and fair). If he's unable to land on a platform, often times its optimal to grab the edge -> stand up -> up B him to finish him off at ~90-100 percent instead of edgeguarding like normal.

Aside from CF I can't say I'm good at any of the matchups >_> though I'm not horrible vs. most of them except Falco

 

[Nicknyte]

^ This.

I have to say the few times I had to fight Ganny, his fist stops weegee hard. I usually try to play a little aggressive most of the time, but against ganny, I had to camp. Ftilts are standard issue, and what not, but you must know how to Smash DI first before you can really fight against a good ganny.

 

[Winston]

What in particular are you smash DIing vs. ganon?

 

[Nicknyte]

Pretty much everything Winston. Do you really need to not smash DI any of Ganondorf's moves? Fair, if you need an answer lol

 

[Thoraxe]

^ Why does nobody like turning on their gamecube for 2 minutes and testing this stuff instead of just posting whatever random theories they have? ><

Why would i bother sharing something i merely fabricated out of thin air on a rad weegy thread? Why instead of immediately denouncing something interesting luigi can do offstage battlefield to keep off all of the hungry foxes, you go turn on your gamecube for 1 minute and find out i'm not a bored compulsive liar trolling a weegy bored, merely a fellow weegy main trying to improve his metagame.

 

[Winston]

Oh, sorry >__> That's not what I meant. I was talking about this part of your post

I think Dairs can be DI'd close to like 50-60 degrees where as the chop can only be DI'd to around 40-50 degrees. It might have to do with the fact that luigi's invisible sword shoes have a downright silly hitbox, where the chop can kind of vary depending if the player is above you or horizontal to you.

I didn't mean to offend.

 

[Wenbobular]

O man a new Weeji thread

Dair and Fair are pretty close to identical in terms of trajectory haha

 

[Winston]

Pretty much everything Winston. Do you really need to not smash DI any of Ganondorf's moves? Fair, if you need an answer lol

But what does the SDI accomplish?

 

[Thoraxe]

I didn't mean to offend.

oh yeah, that was silly theory, no offense taken. SDI gannon's fair in order not to die at like 90, and from way above the stage you have a few options to hopefully get around gannon's wall of uairs and bairs (Crosses fingers for misfire). I have a question: Is there a way to guarantee hitting with both sides of weegy's Dsmash while slip n sliding around a heavy? I just occasionally get lucky with that, and i was hoping there might be a way to increase the chances of the double hit for the sexy 30ish percent its worth. Lets get all theoretical up in here.

 

[Winston]

But that's what regular DI is for. SDI's effect is neglible for those things, I'm pretty sure

 

[Blea Gelo]

oh yeah, that was silly theory, no offense taken. SDI gannon's fair in order not to die at like 90, and from way above the stage you have a few options to hopefully get around gannon's wall of uairs and bairs (Crosses fingers for misfire). I have a question: Is there a way to guarantee hitting with both sides of weegy's Dsmash while slip n sliding around a heavy? I just occasionally get lucky with that, and i was hoping there might be a way to increase the chances of the double hit for the sexy 30ish percent its worth. Lets get all theoretical up in here.

depends on the %, an if they are CCing. also on the character, while heavier, the more you can hit wif both front an back part of the move. . .

 

[Thoraxe]

depends on the %, an if they are CCing. also on the character, while heavier, the more you can hit wif both front an back part of the move. . .

hmmm, so heavy characters at low percents and a lengthy WD will score you the double hit, especially if they're caught ccing for some dumb reason. This is good stuff, i'll try incorporating this more on the starting percents for a good mix up game (i usually go for the jab upthrow starter).

But more importantly: When do we get to feast our eyes on the MUCH ANTICIPATED luigi combo vid you promised us way back when Blea Gelo? lookin forward to dat.

 

[Nicknyte]

Where is that combo vid, lol.

@Winston, SmashDI is a little different. Against ganny's fair, you wanna DI to the corner, just to say alive longer, Smash DIing against him is rather effective. I cant say the same for trying to smash DI Falcon's KNee lol. Of course, that can be DI'ed as well

 

[Winston]

If you SDI ganon's fair you'll probably move like... a single body length at best. I mean, it couldmake the difference maybe... 1 in 20 times or something (generous). It helps a tiny bit. But to say that it's a necessity in the matchup is a huge exaggeration

 

[Nicknyte]

I wouldn't say for certain. Also, I am speaking about if luigi is at 60-80 percent, not 20-40. What is your scenario?

 

[Winston]

Yeah, KO percent. Regular DI is what matters for surviving strong hits. A smash DI input will move you like 2/3 a jigglypuff length if I remember correctly, which won't make the difference between surviving or not the vast majority of the time. Smash DI doesn't alter your trajectory at all

 

[Rubyiris]

Elvis: weegee ditto mm?

 

[Blea Gelo]

Ive been pretty bussy. But im working on it every time i can

 

[Nicknyte]

What are you doing Blea? Lol.

I have to ask Winston, why did you quit playing Luigi. I see you have excellent taste in Anime.

 

[Rubyiris]

The best taste in Anime is not watching it at all.

;o

 

[Winston]

^ Haha, perhaps.

As for quitting Luigi... I just started to play other characters more often in friendlies, and they were more fun =\

Also the Falco matchup was extremely frustrating

 

[Crooked Crow]

Hi, I secondary Luigi, use him in friendlies mostly.

What do I do against Falco? Any pointers?