Nickelodeon All-Stars Brawl General Thread - All Star Brawl 2 Available Today!

[Wario Wario Wario]

priorities were a mess

What do you mean by "priorities"? Please don't tell me you think story mode or whatever is more important than competitive viability or game feel.

 

[Guynamednelson]

What do you mean by "priorities"? Please don't tell me you think story mode or whatever is more important than competitive viability or game feel.

I think Fields is one of those people who thinks the roster needed to be more bland.

 

[Baysha]

It just didn't do anything to appeal to anyone

Being a Nicktoons platfighter isn't anything to appeal to anyone? Being a melee-styled smash game doesn't have appeal? Being a platfighter with rollback? There's plenty of appeal here.

I think Fields is one of those people who thinks the roster needed to be more bland.

I mean, it's not like their opinion is surprising considering the rest of their name

 

[Guynamednelson]

NASB's roster

NASB's roster according to people who think it isn't serious enough

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

NASB's roster
View attachment 361627
NASB's roster according to people who think it isn't serious enough
View attachment 361628

NASB BUT BASED

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

Saw the discussion, it's pretty obvious why NASB got backlash. It just didn't do anything to appeal to anyone and priorities were a mess.

I think I get what point you were trying to get across, you just worded it a bit vague.

From a casual perspective, no items, lack of alts and modes and unconventional character priorities (Helga over Arnold, Reptar over Rugrats, April+Shredder over Raph+Donnie, Nigel over Eliza, Oblina over Ickis, Toph over Zuko, Sandy over Squidward, no Timmy, Jimmy, Jenny, Rocko at launch, etc)

From a competitive perspective, the game was a broken buggy mess at launch, with some characters even having infinites/easy to win with down air chains (this perspective has gotten much much better since launch and is why the game will only get better over time but I digress)

I feel like implying priorities were a mess is a bit subjective. I presume you mean not prioritizing polish, voice acting and crossplay at launch? I mean, all I can say is that Ludosity is a dev team of like, 7 people? For all we know they might've been mandated to launch with as many characters as they did, which would've further split focus. I feel like Slap City's roster size even after this latest update sort of implies roster size isn't typically a priority for them. Unless what you mean is Ludosity biting off more than they can chew? In which case hard to say, but that can only mean improvement in the future.

At the end of the day, NASB can only get better with time/additions/adjustments/sequels, which leaves me optimistic for the future

Also y'all talking down on people voicing their own concerns/criticisms in most instances probably shouldn't be met with smart remarks

 

[Guynamednelson]

Reptar over Rugrats

I think a lot of people within NASB discussion underestimate how popular Reptar is in general. Twitter was able to get away with having the emoji attached to the #rugrats hashtag be Reptar rather than a baby bottle or a pacifier.

Nigel over Eliza

I think people didn't mind this because he's popular as a WT character disregarding memes

Oblina over Ickis

While from what I've seen, A!RM fans were just happy that they had something. Keep in mind the show has never had a playable character after Nicktoons Racing, A!RM having a playable character in general is unusual.

Toph over Zuko

Toph seemed to be well-received regardless. Her moveset showcase has a tremendous amount of views by fighter-that-isn't-SF-MK-SSB-Tekken standards.

I mean, all I can say is that Ludosity is a dev team of like, 7 people?

To be fair they were co-developing the game with various other teams. At the same time, however, they had to deal with GameMill's money, and they can't fund AAA-tier games since their titles don't sell millions as a result of not needing to to make back their budget. And it's the publisher's job to provide games funding, meaning none of the money Paramount earned from Sonic 2 or Top Gun Maverick can go to developing/updating Nicktoons games.

Also y'all talking down on people voicing their own concerns/criticisms in most instances probably shouldn't be met with smart remarks

I just think it's overestimated how much of the roster would change if Ludosity had a more "serious business" approach to character choices. At best I could see Jimmy over Hugh, the two other Turtles over April and Shredder (who aren't even joke choices anyway), and maybe Eliza or a Rugrat taking Nigel's spot.

TBH, I kind of understand why some people would think Rocko is the end for NASB1 and future NASB development would go to a sequel: It'd be the only way for some people to learn NASB got items and voices. And it'd most like have even more items. And if NKR3 is any indication, NASB was successful enough for GameMill to be able to up their budgets.

 

[Fields - Ultimate's Great]

Well of course that'd be impossible when the majority is solely used to Smash and how massive its roster has gotten, without considering all the factors that were necessary to make Everyone Is Here a possibility.

I disagree, people were put off by the horrid animations and soundtrack than "Smash players who are only used to Ultimate!". Then launch came and there was a whole slew of messes. NASB would've been better received if it had something going for it immediately like stable gameplay and online.

What do you mean by "priorities"? Please don't tell me you think story mode or whatever is more important than competitive viability or game feel.

No. Gamemill would rather tell the team to focus on selling DLC characters than fully polishing the game and its online. And a shame the general gameplay wasn't all that stable either. I'm sure if NASB launched with Slap quality gameplay the backlash would be way less prevalent. Our major "competitive representation" was nair city. Primarily focusing on competitive viability is also subjective in terms of people finding it worth it.

Being a Nicktoons platfighter isn't anything to appeal to anyone? Being a melee-styled smash game doesn't have appeal? Being a platfighter with rollback? There's plenty of appeal here.

Those are good in theory. Rollback doesn't mean anything if it doesn't function well which is something Nick Brawl struggles with a lot. A melee-style Smash game has been the primary platform fighter approach for a while, it's stale and it doesn't give NASB its own identity to the public to just hop on Melee's back. One of the primary criticisms is that it'd rather chase Melee players that won't play it over Melee rather than be its own game. And the Nicktoons platform-fighter is a goldmine until you see characters that are designed and play the same. With some characters just not being repped good at all.

I feel like there's a reason people just left. And I definitely don't think it's because of "people spoiled by Smash" or MVS should've flopped for being as content-less as it is.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I feel like there's a reason people just left.

Well I just think it's normal for the majority to move on from a game after a week even if they don't really have any problems with it. Games which don't have the netcode and balance issues of NASB at launch still lost a lotta players very quickly. They just didn't claim it was the lack of polish/content/etc. that made them drop it.

 

[Fields - Ultimate's Great]

Well I just think it's normal for the majority to move on from a game after a week even if they don't really have any problems with it. Games which don't have the netcode and balance issues of NASB at launch still lost a lotta players very quickly. They just didn't claim it was the lack of polish/content/etc. that made them drop it.

I don't think that's the case at all. NASB is a very criticized and divisive product with far too many issues. It's only natural that it got the backlash it has. If it was just a natural flow of players we would have more people around like all the other games and complaints wouldn't exist this much. Or at least more people that come back now and again.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I don't think that's the case at all.

GUILTY GEAR -STRIVE- - Steam Charts

An ongoing analysis of Steam's player numbers, seeing what's been played the most.

steamcharts.com

This is Guilty Gear's first million seller. It was meant to pander to casuals a lot more than any previous GG. Look at how much the playercount has dropped since launch regardless.

 

[Fields - Ultimate's Great]

GUILTY GEAR -STRIVE- - Steam Charts

An ongoing analysis of Steam's player numbers, seeing what's been played the most.

steamcharts.com

This is Guilty Gear's first million seller. It was meant to pander to casuals a lot more than any previous GG. Look at how much the playercount has dropped since launch regardless.

And there's still far more people playing it than NASB. With Guilty Gear not being heavily contentious. NASB just didn't appeal to many people which makes backlash inevitable.

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

well, if we're really bringing steam player count into this, NASB had an over 90% player drop off after a week or two, partly because of people anticipating Sora, but mainly because the game at launch wasn't too hot

I think Fields is basically right in that any improvements NASB has made that were detriments at launch are way too late to gain back the casual audience, especially with MVS existing. They should get Rocko and this Ultimate Edition or whatever out this fall and move on to a sequel. I really do wonder just how different things would be if NASB in its current state is what we got at launch instead

 

[Guynamednelson]

NASB had an over 90% player drop off after a week

...yeah, that's what I'm saying, this always happens, no matter how much money was spent on a game or how casual-friendly it is. It'll happen with NASB2 too, they just won't claim they stopped playing it because it lacked items and voices and was janky.

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

...yeah, that's what I'm saying, this always happens, no matter how much money was spent on a game or how casual-friendly it is. It'll happen with NASB2 too, they just won't claim they stopped playing it because it lacked items and voices and was janky.

yes, fighting games, especially non Smash platform fighters, always have this occur, but never to the degree and speed NASB did, which is why the backlash became so prevalent, that was my point by bringing up that it had an over 90% playerbase drop off compared to the Guilty Gear you linked which had a little over 50% at most

 

[Guynamednelson]

yes, fighting games, especially non Smash platform fighters, always have this occur, but never to the degree and speed NASB did, which is why the backlash became so prevalent, that was my point by bringing up that it had an over 90% playerbase drop off compared to the Guilty Gear you linked which had a little over 50% at most

Fair enough. I do support NASB2 under the belief that it's the only way for some people to know NASB is no longer a silent game with no wacky RNG, I'm just prepared for it to also wind up a niche game. Hell, look at NKR3: It's a game that is going to launch with items*, voices, all four Turtles*, Jimmy Neutron, Jenny, Zuko, and a lot more visual polish, and it doesn't seem to have anywhere near the same level of pre-launch hype that NASB did.

*Yes I know these were already in previous kart racers.

 

[Baysha]

I disagree, people were put off by the horrid animations and soundtrack than "Smash players who are only used to Ultimate!". Then launch came and there was a whole slew of messes. NASB would've been better received if it had something going for it immediately like stable gameplay and online.

Personally I think the animations are hardly "horrid." I actually kinda like them in some cases. I feel like a big issue here (and in a lot of internet places in general tbh) is that people are debating an inherently subjective thing as objective fact.

A melee-style Smash game has been the primary platform fighter approach for a while, it's stale and it doesn't give NASB its own identity to the public to just hop on Melee's back. One of the primary criticisms is that it'd rather chase Melee players that won't play it over Melee rather than be its own game.

Well for one thing, NASB was many's first non-Smash platfighter. So the "competitive" approach wasn't as "stale" to them as other platfighter fans might think it is. People are really drawn to games with characters they know. And secondly, the melee approach isn't as stale to other platfighter fans. Though this is getting very close to just throwing opinions at eachother.

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

uh oh, they're fighting it out

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Personally I think the animations are hardly "horrid." I actually kinda like them in some cases. I feel like a big issue here (and in a lot of internet places in general tbh) is that people are debating an inherently subjective thing as objective fact.

The animations aren't horrid... but I don't know how you'd be able to tell when half of them go by so fast if you blink you'll miss them.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

A melee-style Smash game has been the primary platform fighter approach for a while, it's stale and it doesn't give NASB its own identity to the public to just hop on Melee's back.

Are there even that many, if any, valid approaches to making a platform fighter that aren't at least slightly Melee-adjacent? People who like platform fighters - the genre, not one specific franchise in it - play them primarily for the movement, so most devs making a platform fighter are naturally going to want to make a fast, movement-centric game. Not to mention that NASB is really nothing like Melee - at the closest it plays like a comical exaggeration of Melee's offense and speed.

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

The animations aren't horrid... but I don't know how you'd be able to tell when half of them go by so fast if you blink you'll miss them.

Yeah it’s a tricky balancing act, leave the animations as is and risk the game being hard to read but keeping the fast paced gameplay intact, or make the animations more readable and risk the game being slower paced gameplay wise. I feel like characters like Jenny and Hugh are proof they can strike that balance though so it’s probably just the kind of thing that’ll be improved upon in a follow up game

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Why does this thread take so badly any criticism to the game? I get that they had a small team and budget, but it doesn't excuse everything.

 

[Baysha]

Why does this thread take so badly any criticism to the game? I get that they had a small team and budget, but it doesn't excuse everything.

Probably because people disagree on what those flaws are.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Probably because people disagree on what those flaws are.

Pretty much. People stating opinions as fact is a huge problem that plagues all gaming discourse, and it makes discussing games with large, vocal hate followings like NASB a complete and total slog. The actual PROBLEMS facing NASB at launch were that the netcode was bad and the balancing was all out of wack (which to be fair, it still kind of is; I dunno if they're ever gonna nerf April in any meaningful way). Everything else like the lack of items or voice acting was a strictly YMMV thing and has since been fixed anyway... not that it got anyone to look the game's way.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Everything else like the lack of items or voice acting was a strictly YMMV thing and has since been fixed anyway... not that it got anyone to look the game's way.

This in particular is what makes me think some people are not gonna be satisfied until this game is literally a Nick reskin of SSBU. They asked for the bare minimum, got it, but that still isn't good enough.

 

[Ze Diglett]

This in particular is what makes me think some people are not gonna be satisfied until this game is literally a Nick reskin of SSBU. They asked for the bare minimum, got it, but that still isn't good enough.

Consumer attention spans are just fleeting these days. If you don't get them hooked day 1, they're gonna go latch onto whatever the next hype train is and forget your game even exists. It took years for Power Rangers: Battle for the Grid to recover from its rocky launch, and even then, look at that game's playercount. Dismal.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Consumer attention spans are just fleeting these days. If you don't get them hooked day 1, they're gonna go latch onto whatever the next hype train is and forget your game even exists. It took years for Power Rangers: Battle for the Grid to recover from its rocky launch, and even then, look at that game's playercount. Dismal.

It's a shame that games today get an overwhelming amount of their sales on launch day instead of slowly earning them over time, considering that the majority of modern games are at their worst on launch day so most people will only experience the worst version.

On the other hand, if NASB earned its 500k sales more slowly, they'd likely have to make more compromises with the VA than no Tim Curry.

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

Why does this thread take so badly any criticism to the game? I get that they had a small team and budget, but it doesn't excuse everything.

What major criticism of NASB doesn’t tie back to one of or both of those two things?

Really the only thing that comes to mind is how long it’s taken for crossplay to be implemented. Had it been implemented back when Jenny was added or even Hugh we would’ve likely had a steadier niche playerbase, but as is now it’s probably too late for that to even make much of an impact (I presume they’re really banking on this ultimate edition but I have my doubts that’s gonna do much)

 

[Guynamednelson]

What major criticism of NASB doesn’t tie back to one of or both of those two things?

I think the "they didn't treat the roster like serious business" thing has nothing to do with time/money.

But even if they had Eliza or Raphael instead of what we got, the game would still be niche thanks to GameMill's marketing budget and priorities.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Honestly, I think one of NASB's greatest strengths is that it's just a random insignificant game and not a momentous generation-defining event like Smash, nor is it trying to be one like MVS. If the game had kept its pre-launch momentum it probably would've been much worse off for it as it'd have to appeal to as many people as possible for as long as possible, and cool stuff like Hugh over Jimmy or all 3 Universe Pack characters being revealed at once may not have happened.

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

Honestly, I think one of NASB's greatest strengths is that it's just a random insignificant game and not a momentous generation-defining event like Smash, nor is it trying to be one like MVS. If the game had kept its pre-launch momentum it probably would've been much worse off for it as it'd have to appeal to as many people as possible for as long as possible, and cool stuff like Hugh over Jimmy or all 3 Universe Pack characters being revealed at once may not have happened.

I am starting to wonder if revealing all 3 at once was the right call tbh

 

[RileyXY1]

Honestly, I think one of NASB's greatest strengths is that it's just a random insignificant game and not a momentous generation-defining event like Smash, nor is it trying to be one like MVS. If the game had kept its pre-launch momentum it probably would've been much worse off for it as it'd have to appeal to as many people as possible for as long as possible, and cool stuff like Hugh over Jimmy or all 3 Universe Pack characters being revealed at once may not have happened.

It helps that Ludosity likes to go for who they want to see in the game instead of the most obvious choices, which wouldn't have been the case if a different developer made this game. And those unexpected picks like Oblina, Nigel, PTM, April, and Hugh are some of the most creative and unique fighters on the roster, so their absence would be a massive loss for the game. Basically, without Ludosity's creativity this game would basically have fallen to the wayside like the Kart Racers games were and be forgotten about.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I am starting to wonder if revealing all 3 at once was the right call tbh

It helps that Ludosity likes to go for who they want to see in the game instead of the most obvious choices, which wouldn't have been the case if a different developer made this game. And those unexpected picks like Oblina, Nigel, PTM, April, and Hugh are some of the most creative and unique fighters on the roster, so their absence would be a massive loss for the game. Basically, without Ludosity's creativity this game would basically have fallen to the wayside like the Kart Racers games were and be forgotten about.

Neither of those are what I'm saying. I'm saying that this game did become unpopular and that that's a good thing. If the game was popular, its DLC cycle would've been much worse.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I'm saying that this game did become unpopular and that that's a good thing.

If there's constant doomposters and mockery, no it ****ing isn't. We may not have people ****flinging over whether the next DLC character would be Jimmy or Timmy or El Tigre or nobody, but we have something much worse.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

If there's constant doomposters and mockery, no it ****ing isn't. We may not have people ****flinging over whether the next DLC character would be Jimmy or Timmy or El Tigre or nobody, but we have something much worse.

I'm only talking about the game itself, not the discourse surrounding it.

Even if I wasn't, being a laughing stock is by far preferable to inescapably taking over the internet for 3 years in a row and being treated as this "super significant event" instead of just a game - not saying NASB would've ever had that much momentum, but rather that I'm much happier with NASB's reputation than Smash's.

 

[DrifloonEmpire]

It helps that Ludosity likes to go for who they want to see in the game instead of the most obvious choices, which wouldn't have been the case if a different developer made this game. And those unexpected picks like Oblina, Nigel, PTM, April, and Hugh are some of the most creative and unique fighters on the roster, so their absence would be a massive loss for the game. Basically, without Ludosity's creativity this game would basically have fallen to the wayside like the Kart Racers games were and be forgotten about.

I don't think Jimmy over Hugh would've been a "massive loss for the game".

 

[Quick Gaming (QG)]

I think its worth clarifying that the 3 DLC characters we’ve gotten so far were all very much top requests, Hugh included

Um as far as NASB in general goes I’m more than happy with it staying niche, I just wish that didn’t also entail mockery. I feel like so much of the problems with NASB would be forgiven if it was simply free to play or like 20 bucks max (which is the price range Ludosity was expecting btw, which could also explain the off priorities to some). I have my gripes with MVS, but I don’t feel like I have much room to complain when it’s free. $50 retail at launch entailed $50 value and even now I don’t think NASB meets that.

That’s actually the real reason NASB is met with mockery if I had to guess, which is why I think this ultimate edition will be a mistake and why I think they should just move on to a sequel

 

[Guynamednelson]

being a laughing stock is by far preferable to inescapably taking over the internet for 3 years in a row and being treated as this "super significant event" instead of just a game - not saying NASB would've ever had that much momentum, but rather that I'm much happier with NASB's reputation than Smash's.

Just because it's okay to be niche doesn't mean newbs should be completely discouraged from ever checking the game out.

 

[Fields - Ultimate's Great]

Are there even that many, if any, valid approaches to making a platform fighter that aren't at least slightly Melee-adjacent? People who like platform fighters - the genre, not one specific franchise in it - play them primarily for the movement, so most devs making a platform fighter are naturally going to want to make a fast, movement-centric game. Not to mention that NASB is really nothing like Melee - at the closest it plays like a comical exaggeration of Melee's offense and speed.

There's a massive difference between taking some inspiration from Melee while still doing your own style and directly copying from Melee. Wavedashing wasn't necessary, you don't see it used much at all and was only good for a quick joke. Also haphazardly inserting rest and shine and pandering to Hbox before launch is awkward. These were all fun in the moment, but I get why many don't think NASB has too much of an identity regardless if I disagree.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Just because it's okay to be niche doesn't mean newbs should be completely discouraged from ever checking the game out.

I never said that being a laughing stock is OK, just that I prefer NASB's "embarassing failure" reputation over Smash's "life-changing generation-defining miracle" reputation - neither are deserved IMO, and the latter would be annoying even if it were.